The Lebron Legacy
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@justanotherfan these are very valid points. However just because Cleveland trades for Love, it doesn’t grantee multiple champions, one champion or that they will even make it to the championship game. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think a team shouldn’t explore trades and FA’s to better or increase their chance of winning a championship. I get this, believe me I really do.
This was never my argument. My argument is how do you trade a player with the potential of Wiggs without seeing what the Kid can do? This concept that proven is always better than potential is a weak stance and is hollow. As in every trade, fee agent signing, or drafted player there is risk.
I understand I walk a different path, talk a different game, and have different thoughts about Love for Wiggs, proven versus potential, building for the future versus going for it all now than most. It’s ok I’m cool with it.
However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships? The Spurs may have traded and picked up players along the way but they protected their future, their potential. They never sold out their future. That is why they are the best run franchise in the NBA.
This is the best way I can put it. I get trading Love for Wiggs. However nobody and I mean nobody can convince me trading Wiggs for Love. Well not until you at least see what the kid can do with the parts you already have. I mean a player of Wiggs athletic ability only comes around so often. Wouldn’t you want to see what you have before trading the kid?
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I think the Spurs are a great example of this, but I think to make the comparison work, we have to look at the Spurs prior to acquiring Tim Duncan.
In 1987 the Spurs drafted David Robinson #1 overall. He didn’t start playing with them immediately due to military service, but when he did he quickly became a top player in the NBA and led the Spurs to the playoffs just about every season. However, the Spurs never advanced further than the Western Conference Finals during that time. They never really got themselves into that group of championship contenders. They were good every year, but they never crossed from good to great.
It wasn’t until they were able to pair Robinson and Duncan together for a couple of years that they broke through and won their first title. Of course, after that they were stifled by the Lakers for a few years, but then they won another title with Duncan and Robinson. But the only reason they were able to win that 2003 title was because they went out and got Stephen Jackson (pre-Palace brawl) and a couple of other pieces (including a very young Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili) to help out. Without Jackson, Ginobili and Parker they don’t win that 2003 title. They probably end up returning to the level that San Antonio was at through the early and mid nineties, as a solid but not championship level team.
If you have a chance to get better parts, you do it because the window could slam shut at any moment. What if Derrick Rose comes back at an MVP level playing with Joakim Noah, Kevin Love and others? What if Kevin Durant, Serge Ibaka and Russell Westbrook explode out west and turn into a dynasty? You can’t assume that everything will remain static. It won’t. So either you move forward or your opponents pass you.
I’d love to see what Wiggins, Lebron and Irving could do. It could make for some really fun 3 on 2 fast breaks. But I think Cleveland can get a better basketball situation if they have Love, Lebron and Irving.
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Once a player is drafted the team retains the right for quite some time. If he goes to play overseas, the Cavs would retain his right for one year AFTER he is done playing there; so going overseas does not help him unless he wants to sit a year after playing overseas. This how many teams draft European players that they know will not be available for several years and basically “park” them there.
Here is an article that does a good and balanced job describing Wiggins potential and the “build vs buy”, “right vs wrong”, “San Antonio vs Miami” approach to forming a championship caliber team.
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However let me ask you a question or anybody that would like to respond? Years from now and your looking back will you remember that team that sold out their future to win that lone championship, or will you remember that team that protected their future and wins multiple championships?
@DoubleDD The flaw in that assumption is that by keeping Wiggins and “protecting their future” they win multiple championships. Obviously everyone will always remember a team on a multiple championship run versus a team that wins a lone championship. But what if the Cavs keep Wiggins, Love goes to the Bulls, the Cavs come away with zero championships, and the Bulls are the team to win multiple championships? Still think the future was worth protecting then?
As I said, it’s about odds. You weigh the odds of scenario A versus scenario B. I think where most people are disagreeing with you is your optimism regarding the odds of Wiggins leading the team to championships. It’s certainly possible, but I think it’s definitely the longer shot.
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@JayHawkFanToo Thanks for clearing up the overseas situation for me. After you brought it up, I do remember reading several things about teams “stashing” Euro players overseas while retaining their rights, either to help them develop or to assist in keeping them under the cap.
And thanks for the link. I don’t want to come off as someone who thinks that this is a no-brainer trade. Aside from my personal feelings of not wanting to see Wiggins banished to Minnesota, there’s a lot to not like about this trade. Having to give up Bennett, a #1 pick, and probably more players just to make the money work will gut the roster and any roster flexibility the Cavs may have had quickly evaporates. This is to say nothing that I’m not 100% convinced that the Cavs would be appreciably better with Love than they would be with Wiggins & Co.
It’s all about risk/reward. And it’s all uncertain. It’s for everyone to individually decide what those risks are, how likely they are, and if they’re worth the reward.
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@icthawkfan316 - You say my assumption of keeping Wiggins is flawed. Yet in the same breath you and everyone assumes if the Cavs make this trade they are a championship team. Every move you make to acquire a player or players is a gamble or risk. Love guarantee’s nothing but that he can spread the court and play no defense.
I could just at easily say that the Wolves trade Love to the Bulls and they win nothing, and the Cavs keep Wiggins on go to win the next 3 championships. You can’t just have it one way. You may feel my thinking is flawed but there is no guarantee that any team wins a championship with Love or Wiggs for that matter. These are all gambles.
However the Cavs drafted Wiggs and have him under contract. What’s the bigger gamble to keep him or trade him? That’s the question. I know I’m reaching on Wiggs being a great one, however I don’t see how you trade the kid before you see what you have. That’s just me. I mean if the logical choice is always the proven player then why even draft at all?
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@DoubleDD You’re right, it’s all a gamble. And as I’ve said, it’s all about playing the odds. I don’t assume that trading for Love makes the Cavs a championship team. What I do assume is that it increases the odds. It’s not “having it one way”, it’s objectively assessing the percentages. Heck, there’s a chance the TWolves keep Love, they win the championship, and he decides to re-sign with Minnesota. Of course, that chance is very slim. You wouldn’t want to gamble on those odds. If you accept that premise, then it’s all a matter of what odds you assign to the other various outcomes. And really that’s what we’re all quibbling over. And it is all subjective; just our opinions. I’d love for the Cavs to give Wiggs a fair shot for 30 games or so to see how this team looks. Right now they seem committed to trading him for Love
As to why you draft, well not every year is a team going to be willing to trade a player the caliber of Kevin Love. Just like not every year is the team with the top pick going to be thrust into the position of competing for the Eastern Conference title. If the Cavs were without LeBron and the title window wasn’t open, of course you don’t trade Wiggins for Love. But this is the model we see all across sports. Teams that are in rebuilding mode (the TWolves in this case) trading away whatever proven assets they have (Love) in exchange for cheaper, younger, unknown assets (Wiggins, Bennett, draft picks) from teams that are closer to title contention (Cavs). The Royals have been doing this for years, trading away guys like Carlos Beltran or Zach Grienke for unproven prospects. They’re finally at a point where they are closer to being buyers than sellers.
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I wonder what the situation would be if Wiggins stays in Cleveland. LeBron has barely mentioned him, the most positive comment he has made is that he is “intrigued” by his potential and has openly and publicly advocated trading (or should it be throwing) him to the Wolves for Love. When you think about it, you wonder if LeBron has the “next LeBron” moniker assigned to Wiggins in the back of his mind and sees him more as a potential rival than as a teammate. Keep in mind that that at times he was a real a$$ with Mario in Miami and his behavior was largely ignored by the press since Mario was not a high profile player; would he pull the same crap with Wiggins? Would Wiggins put up with it? Interesting question to ponder on a news-light summer day.
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@JayHawkFanToo he would pull the same crap and wiggins is young, so probably he’d take it. Mario did. Not a Lebron fan!!
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@icthawkfan316 I always love your posts and comments. Sometimes I disagree and sometimes I see yours and relax on mine. However dude you just brought the Royals into this this subject??? MLB and the NBA are quite different. The Royals have traded away all their proven talent over the past two decades because one David Glass is a cheap owner, and not a very good friend. As he promised Mister K he would run the team and sell it to local KC owners when the time is right at Mister K’s wishes. However Mister David Glass is making to much money running the Royals into the ground. The second, MLB doesn’t have a salary cap It has a luxury tax so a big market team like the Yankees can just buy all the players they want, forcing small market teams like the Royals to trade proven all stars for potential, or they lose them anyways.
Look I get it this trade makes sense to you, but it doesn’t to me. I don’t make this trade until I see what I have. Like I said the athletic ability, size, body of Wiggs doesn’t come around very often. Love is a dime a dozen, especially since he doesn’t play defense. No way I trade a potential future Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bryant, or Duncan. Until I see what the kid can do. I don’t care what Lebron says or you for that matter.
Nothing but Love (pun intended) Icthawkfan316
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If Love is so great, where are all the other NBA teams trying to trade for him. Surely more than 2 teams should have interest? And Cleveland didn’t seem to have huge interest until His Highness seemed to weigh.
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@Bwag There are numerous reasons why there aren’t more teams vying to acquire Love in a trade. It’s not that every team wouldn’t love to have him. Don’t let yourself believe that’s the case.
First of all, you don’t give up what Minnesota is asking for Love if you are not close to a championship. It doesn’t make sense if you are rebuilding to trade away prospects & picks. So immediately, the list of teams that are close to being viable championship caliber teams dramatically cuts the list of teams that would reasonably look to acquire Love via a trade down to a handful. Maybe 6 or so.
Second, because so much is required to acquire Love via a trade, an even smaller number of teams already possess the necessary pieces to trade for him while still leaving enough of a talented roster to compete for the championship. This reduces the number of teams further.
Third, because you are going to have to sacrifice so many young pieces to acquire Love, any team willing to do so will likely only agree to a trade if they have certain assurances that he has genuine interest in signing for your team long term. No one wants to sell the farm for a one year rental.
Fourth, Love isn’t going to come cheap. He’s already making $15.7 million this season and will most definitely command a raise on the open market. So while the monetary value has to be somewhat equal on both sides to trade for him, whatever team that ends up with Love has to make sure they can fit him under the cap next season at an increased figure.
So we see that it’s not that other NBA teams aren’t interested in having a player like Love on their roster, but rather that so few actually fit all 4 of these criteria. And you’re right, Cleveland didn’t have interest in Love before LeBron (aka “His Highness” ) signed with them, because they didn’t meet the first criteria - they were not going to be a championship caliber team. Adding LeBron instantly made them contenders, at least to come out of the East.
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@DoubleDD Thank you for the compliments; I’m glad you enjoy my posts. Likewise, even when we disagree, yours are always welcome. It’s nice to have respectful disagreements with others that are able to competently express their side.
You’re right - there are definite differences between MLB and the NBA. However, I would argue that the end result is the same. Whether teams can’t keep the players that they draft & develop because of financial considerations (such as in MLB where the Yankees, Dodgers, etc. can simply outbid the smaller market teams), or whether they can’t keep them because their franchise is not an ideal free agent destination (due to location, bad management, media exposure, etc.), the result is that teams such as Minnesota just can’t keep high-end players because they will eventually walk, and thus are forced to trade them for prospects & picks or get nothing for them in return. The CBA attempted to curb this trend by giving players financial incentives to re-sign with their current club - Minnesota can offer more and for more years than any team looking to sign him in free agency. We saw this with Melo & the Knicks. But at the end of the day, some (if not most) have still chosen to walk to a more desirable destination.
I am in 100% agreement with you in that I would also like to see Wiggins suit up for the Cavs, to see how good he is, how good the team is with him, etc. But I also see Cleveland’s perspective. What if Wiggins bombs? Then he’s no longer as attractive a trade piece. What if he gets injured?
Lastly, while I do enjoy your counterpoints, in saying that you don’t care what I say, I read that as you don’t even consider an opinion other than your own. That you’re so close-minded, it doesn’t matter how logical or reasoned another point-of-view is, you reject it out of hand. And if that’s the case, why would anyone continue to engage you in conversation? This is an NBA issue so at the end of the day it’s not of great importance to me, but when KU basketball season starts won’t you wish that your fellow fans and posters here read your posts, respond to them, value your opinions even if they don’t fall in line with their own? Maybe you don’t care, but that is why I come here - for the debate, to get different perspectives (often from people far more knowledgable than me about the game), etc.
Maybe that’s not what you meant, but that’s how it reads.
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Wiggins does not have a history of injuries while Love does. In his 6 years in the NBA Lobe has played 81, 60, 73, 55, 18, 77 out of a n 82 game season. I would be more concerned with Love getting injured than Wiggins, Remember when Love got his elbow injure while sleeping? Now he has pulled out from the FIBA Basketball World Cup USA team supposedly because his contract status, but the talk is that he does not want to risk injury. So much for that.
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I’m thinking the same when comparing Wigs to Love.
But I’m a bit reserved on Wigs’ health through his first year. I believe his jump from college to NBA will be more challenging than HS to college. I’m not sure he’ll get away with some of his hard drives in the league. In the league you are expected to pay a price for wanting to finish at the rim. The really great players learned to protect themselves, and I’m not sure young Andrew has ever had to develop that skill. In my books, playing 80-100 games a year without major injury while having the balls to take it to the rack is probably the most skillful aspect of NBA play… especially during the playoffs. No one gives the paint away during the playoffs.
So what will Wigs do? Will he avoid the paint? He is going to be under a lot of pressure to perform regardless of where he plays. I don’t see him putting up big numbers from the perimeter, at least, not right away.
I hope he remains calm and doesn’t bite on the hook of trying to finish at the rim. Maybe later in his career, after he learns how to take care of himself out there.
I think he should mold his game after Kobe. Develop his ability to create scoring space from the perimeter and learn how to knock 'em down with a hand in his face. Then, on occasion, take selective moves to the rim.
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@icthawkfan316 not once have I said your views where flawed. Not once. Yet you said mine were. In fact I posted on many occasions I understand where your coming from. Yet somehow I’m flawed because I wouldn’t trade Wiggs before I see what I have. Think about this what if the Bulls would have traded Jordan, or the Celtics traded Bird, or the Lakers traded Magic? Think the GM Would still have a job? or that the fans would be happy with the one championship? Besides I backed that last statement with a joke. Maybe you should lighten up a little, because I’m telling you, any body else I don’t make this trade until I see what I have. Wiggs is a once in a life time kind of talent. Yea the odds are against him, but he has the ability to do it. Sorry dude I’m seeing what the kid has. You say there really is not risk in trading potential for a proven player. Well I can tell you this I wouldn’t want to be remembered as the guy that traded a future in NBA great. Just saying.
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Wiggs is a once in a life time kind of talent.
Too much hyperbole? I would have to strongly disagree with that statement. “once in lifetime” implies the best player ever, doesn’t it? younger players are taller, faster, stronger, better trained, so, we likely have not seen the best player in our lifetime.
I believe that Wiggins might be the best “prospect” in a couple or maybe even several years, based mostly on his freakish athleticism; however, there are lots of players in the NBA with similar athletic ability. The NBA history is full of player that were “the next Wilt” or “the next Jordan” and more recently “the next LeBron,” and some never lived up to the hype, some went to have good but not great careers and a few went to have superior careers. I believe that Wiggins will have a superior career but I would not (at least not yet) anoint him as a “once in lifetime” talent.
I too would like to see what he can do and I would take the chance and keep him. However, because LeBron’s stance on the issue, the locker room chemistry might have been permanently damaged, given that Wiggins, Bennett and whoever else LeBron was willing to throw under the bus will likely get considerable playing time and they might not look at LeBron’s position kindly; I know I would not.
On related news, It is being reported that Love’s agent had officially asked for a trade to Cleveland, which would weaken the Wolves position considerably and strengthen the Cavs, who now might be able to offer less. The saga continues.
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“However, because LeBron’s stance on the issue, the locker room chemistry might have been permanently damaged…”
Could be. But I think LeBron pushes people around now as a test. He wants to know if they are as committed to making it work as he is. I know it may be hard to understand it that way, but he pushes back hardest on his own teammates to see who puts their head down and holds on to resentment, and who pushes back and lets him know they “want it” as much as him.
If I think of it that way, I can rationalize what he is doing. I do think LeBron realizes he only has a limited time left in the league, so he doesn’t want to squander it around guys that are not 100% on board, including with a total team mindset. That sounds like a contradiction to his actions, but he is testing… and he is testing young Andrew to see what he is made of.
Kevin Love may be a higher risk of injury… but part of that risk relates to him willing to take gambles in order to win. How soon will Andrew be ready to make those kinds of gambles? And will he be able to quickly learn how to limit his risk by seeing more of the game and using some defensive techniques to help prevent injury? A great guy to watch and learn from is Ray Allen. If I was Cleveland, I would forget Love and I’d go after Ray Allen. He’s a guy that won’t eat up their salary cap and would be a great teacher to put with all that youth.
From what I understand, Allen is unsigned and not sure what he wants to do. He currently isn’t listed on the Heat.
Andrew has a lot to prove, and it will take years for him to prove himself, and it will take both good and bad fortune for him to prove himself. All the greats had to endure plenty of everything, like playing injured in the playoffs. No one cares if you have a bum ankle in the playoffs. Your fans want you to produce, period, and the greats step up to the challenge. I always give the Isiah Thomas example: Game 6 in the 1988 NBA Playoffs, Lakers vs Pistons. Thomas’ ankle was badly sprained and the size of a large grapefruit and he played through the pain and even scored 25 points in a quarter to help keep his team in the game (an NBA record).
It really doesn’t matter what Andrew does his rookie year… his proof will come over his career. I just hope he realizes that and doesn’t try to do more than he can in his first season. He has the athleticism to try anything… but to succeed, he’ll need a ton more seasoning and practice. It will take a huge sacrifice for him to get to the success level that matches all the hype. And he’ll need some outrageously good luck to get to that level without being setback with major injuries.
The best thing going for Andrew is not his athleticism… it’s his background… it’s his parents… there to guide him along the way because he is going to need to play this right if he wants to become one of the greats. It is a long, long road ahead for young Andrew.
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I agree to a certain extent a star or team leader(s) leaning/yelling/getting on players’ faces to extract the most out of them; although most self-confident, true leaders save the yelling for the locker room and if they do it during a game, they do it discretely and not overtly (to get. attention IMHO). However, LeBron has already sent a message to Wiggins, Bennett and whoever else is involved in the trade, that they are not good enough to win a championship, where Love, who has not even gotten his team to the playoffs in six years, is. Mind you that the message was to players he does not know and has never played with or against before…a different situation than yelling at teammate Mario, wouldn’t you agree?
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@JayHawkFanToo I was more referring to the team concept. Chicago is till looking for that next Jordan, Celtics that next Bird, and the Lakers well they did find Kobe but that is another debate.
Very few players actually reach the realm of greatness, and even less kids have the combination of size, body type and athletic ability that Wiggs has. This is why I stand pat until I see what I have with this kid. In reality Wiggs will fall short, but when a kid has the package of size, body, and athletic ability that Wiggs has you don’t just trade that away.
I agree 100% with you on the damage LeBron has mostly likely done, trying to peddle Wiggs. I tried to bring this up many moons ago on this thread and it went pretty much unnoticed. I knew there was trouble on the way when LeBron said he was heading home and never even mentioned Wiggs. I pretty much take for granted Wiggs will be a Timber Wolf in 28 days. Or is it 27? I will be absolutely shocked if Wiggs is still a Cav after the 30 day time period.
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So it seems this topic maybe running out of steam (unless you guys want to keep it going). I did title this topic the LeBron Legacy.
LeBron left his home team his home town to chase NBA championships. In some ways it worked as he won two with the Heat, yet on the other hand he destroyed the hearts of the fans from his home town. LeBron may have healed a lot of wounds with his decision to come home instead of chasing more money and championships.
However I feel LeBron is still at a crossroads in his Legacy. I get that he still wants to chase more championships. What player wouldn’t, but however at what cost to the team you call home? LeBron’s zeal to win a championship right now maybe clouding his judgment. If you just look at the current Cavs team without any trades you see a team with a lot of potential and younger players.
One path: There are no guarantees in life but just odds. The Cavs could trade half their team for Love and yes it increases the odds that LeBron could capture another championship in a couple years. However there is a lot of if’s, and no guarantees.
The other path: LeBron decides to ride with the talent the Cavs already have. He spends the rest of his prime tutoring, teaching, and up lifting the young talent the Cavs have. Yes, NO championships will come in the next couple of years. Yet by year 3 and for sure year 4 the Cavs become a force to be reckoned with.
Some will say LeBron only has 4 or five years left to make hay. However if you have a team that you invested in, the talent to boot and respects you. LeBron won’t have to be the best player on the court to win. Yet something tells me even when LeBron is old he will be a handful. He can sit back make big money, bring the hammer when needed, watch the team he grew up, and collect championships.
The Best part he can retire giving his home team not only a championship but a dynasty. However it’s his legacy to decide.
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Chalmers just went on and on about how much of a mentor LeBron was to him…
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@drgnslayr said:> Chalmers just went on and on about how much of a mentor LeBron was to him…
I’m not a big fan of LeBron either. However I was just pointing out what he could do. However we both know what he’s going to do. As icthawfan likes to point out it’s the right thing to do. Trade Wiggs for Love and go for what you can get now and don’t worry about the future.
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@drgnslayr I’d imagine Mario would say that just to protect himself!
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I suspect you are right. No one in his right mind would pick a fight with the most powerful player (and apparently GM as well) in the NBA. I believe that at times LeBron can be a good teammate and mentor, but other times he can be a real jerk.
