How about Billy Donovan for Duke?
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@JayHawkFanToo Don’t you think he has a better shot at doing that by staying at KU and beating Wooden’s legacy here?
If he does reel off 2 more conference championships, I’m not sure anyone could consider Bill not to be one of the greatest coaches of all-time. We won the conference against:
- LaMarcus Aldrige,
- Kevin Durant, (NPOY)
- Blake Griffin, (NPOY)
- Buddy Hield, (NPOY)
- George Niang, (AA)
- Royce White,
- PJ Tucker, (AA)
- Avery Braley,
- DJ Augustine,
- Cory Joseph,
- Tristan Thompson
- Jordan Hamilton,
- Damion James, (AA)
- Marcus Smart (AA)
- Jameson Curry
- James Anderson (AA)
- Willie Warren
- Bill Walker
- Michael Beasley (AA)
That would be 3, yes 3, NPOYs in our conference during the streak. That is as many as any other conference has had. Unimaginable that we would be able to do what we have done. Credit to Bill. If he does in fact break the streak, I expect him to go down as a top 5 coach of all time.
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You did not address the issues I posed…
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The Midwest, read KU, cannot match the hype of the East or Weat Coast. Everybody knows who John Wooden was because he did it at a big name school in a huge market. Except for the fist couple of years, UCLA won because it had overwhelmingly more talent than any other schools and, at that time, parity was non-existing and a dozen (or less) schools dominate college basketball. Now, there are realistically 20-30 programs every year that, with a few lucky breaks, have a realistic shot at the title. In this day and age, duplicating what Wooden did at UCLA can only be done at a school that get the press the East or West Coast schools do, When Coach Self Is done, the purists and knowledgeable fans will know where he stands among the game’s greats…we Jayhawk fans already know, but the average Joe will not.
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@jaybate-1.0 Only if Donovan can learn not to wear his pants right below his chin. Guys that wear their pants too high are troubling, to say the least.
( J/K )
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@jaybate-1.0 Capel is not a bad coach… Look what he did when he had talent. And he will have plenty of that at Duke. I also missed out on guys like Shaka and Bennett who could easily be the next coaches at any of the top programs if they continue on their current trajectory.
You and everyone else knows Bill isn’t leaving, But you now have me thinking about something else.
What we should be more scared of than Bill leaving, is his heir apparent getting stolen right from under us. Jerod Haase.
Hopefully Haase puts on a good showing at Stanford for 3-4 years and is ready to come take over when Bill is ready to let go of the reigns. But, now the thought has popped into my head that, maybe K does leave Duke before Bill leaves KU. Maybe Cal finally gets that call to coach an all UK alumni team in the NBA and he can’t refuse. Or maybe Roy just has a Vertigo spell and falls off of one of those elevated courts. And because of that, we lose our #1 prospect and are forced into a short-term decision like Danny Manning. A quick fix, but with as old as he is, he wouldn’t be here long. And he has to show improvement this year in ACC play or he might be back here coaching big guys and helping Bill to win another 'Ship.
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How about Geno Auriemma for Duke? I’d be really curious to see how he’d do on the men’s side.
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I respectfully disagree, Capel is a below average coach and at the top level he has not done well. His record at OU (only top level HC job) is a pedestrian 83–69 (.546) overall and 33-43 (.434) in conference; he had to vacate 13 non-con wins and 4 conference wins in 2009-2010 due to the use of ineligible players. Even if you give him back the forfeited wins, he still has a losing conference record. In his last two season at OU, his conference record was 4-12 and 6-12 or a combined 10-24…not exactly the numbers of a good coach. After his stint at OU he was essentially un-hireable at the top level and had to settle for and assistant position at his Alma Mater, Duke, where he had been a star player. No way, no how, no ma’am Duke settles for Jeff Capel, Duke ties notwithstanding. Just my personal opinion.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’ll agree to disagree with that. Everybody knows who John Wooden is because he dominated college basketball for more than a decade. If ANY program had won 10 championships with a single coach in that same period of time people would know them just the same.
To state that John Wooden won because he had “West Coast Hype” is, IMO, completely wrong. John Wooden won because he was given the go ahead to recruit black players. Something UNC, UK, KU and Louisville weren’t doing at the time. UCLA had multiple black players on their team in the early 60s during some of the height of racism in the U.S.
In comparison, KU had to have the team vote whether or not they were willing to play with a Black player in JoJo White. Before that we had Maurice King and Wilt. But Wilt being a 7-Footer and amazing track athlete allowed him to have fewer issues.
UK and Rupp? He only had one black player ever play for him.
We are talking about not only recruiting more players, but being in an area from which has one of the highest percentage of good black players. LA was key in Wooden’s success, but not because it was a coast. If the University of Illinois had recruited Chicago the same way and had a legendary coach themselves, who knows what could have happened.
Once Wooden had established that he would recruit black players, and then had success, recruiting was easy. No kidding they were loaded. When you are willing and able to recruit guys like Kareem, and you get to also recruit guys like Bill Walton, no kidding you are going to dominate for a decade.
Finally, Wooden was only a pretty good coach up until the point he was able to recruit the way he wanted to. He had a roughly .700 winning percentage in his first 13 seasons at UCLA. Then he broke through with a championship appearance before he went on to do the things he is celebrated for today. But, history says, with no recruiting advantage (being able to freely recruit black players) he would have only gone down as one of the pretty good coaches to ever exist. And we certainly wouldn’t still be talking about him to this day.
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When K finally hangs it up, I don’t think Self will be in the mix. Pretty sure the order for a replacement would be
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Stevens
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Wojo-whatever
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Amaker
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The apocalypse of one of these 3 jokers don’t accept…but would be Capel’s then.
The only person I never, EVER want to hang it up is Popovich. No more HCBS and I shudder to even consider his replacement (as I firmly believe it would be Sean Miller.)
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Bringing up Sean Miller is an interesting name because of his ties to Team USA + he has Nike affiliation and that is important to recruiting. Miller would have to show he can get farther in the NCAA’s then the Elite 8 but I have no doubt his name might be brought up if he started getting more success in March.
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@bmensch1 Arizona wouldn’t let Miller leave. They would be willing to pay as much as us to keep him. He gets WC Nike guys. He has had no problem recruiting, often being ahead of us.
Dude can’t coach though. Not going to come here and do the same thing he has been doing there for years.His record is BARELY better at Zona than Xavier. Seems to me he has peaked. Also, at 47, not the longest term solution of a coach. We should be looking for a guy that will be roughly 45 years old (preferably younger) that can come in and give us 15 years. I hate coaching turn over. I think it is one of the biggest things a programs have that cause struggles.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Given his (and his family’s) Mid-West roots, it is highly unlikely that Coach Self would leave KU for Duke and the East Coast; if he ever gets the itch to move, the most likely destination is the NBA and not another equal or lesser college coaching position.
Sorry, thought I had already addressed the issues you raised and did not want to argue for the last word out of respect for you. But I see I had thought through it and not made it ALL clear.
That said, I will clarify.
I have never calculated percentages, but anecdotally speaking it seems about as many great coaches wind up coaching in places outside their academic and cultural roots, as inside (maybe even more, so once Self’s children are adults, I believe his professional agenda will move quickly to the front burner, same as it was when he took the Illini job and said he and his family would have been happy to stay there had the KU job not come along.
There are a lot of great coaches that leave sooner, or later, for better opportunities. The job and its opportunities to achieve career goals often trump familiar location/culture. Self has said he was quite happy at Illinois, but KU was a special job. On the other hand, he once entertained the Fizzouri job. It’s complicated and it seems one should not just assume a coach will stay or go because of culture.
Next, when Self was a young coach without FU money for life, being close to his folks in OKLAHOMA was probably more important than now when he could coach at any elite college program in CONUS and jet home as often as he wanted as fast, or nearly so, and maybe faster than in a winter storm, as he could drive from Lawrence. So proximity to his folks is likely going to take a back seat to his career for the next few years unless and until they become acutely ill in which case he might even take a job in Oklahoma.
Next, Self is at a career cross roads and KU and Dook are NOT equal in opportunity, at least if Self wants to join the ranks of the greatest coaches of all time by winning 4-5 rings, or preferably more. He has made it clear he does not see himself as coaching into old age a la LB and Coach K. So: if he wants to join the greats, he has to win a bunch of rings in a hurry. Duke presents a sharply higher probability for doing so for all the reasons I have mentioned before: Nike dump trucks, proximity to recruiting hot beds, more favorable product branding in those hotbeds, media-gaming complex favoritism to EST teams , and apparently favorable tournament seeding and whistling. If he wants to get a lot of rings at KU, a lot has to change. Nothing has to change at Duke, except for Coach K to retire as he has been planning to do for years.
Finally, I have already explained that the NBA seems NOT Self’s end game, if he wants to go down as a great college coach. It’s probably been mostly bargaining talk. Had he wanted a pro career he probably would have already jumped a number of times, because being esteemed as a great pro coach requires a lot of seasons, wins and championships, too.
It’s improbable Self will ever turn pro.
It’s almost certain he wants more rings to join the elite all time college coaches.
Duke is a sharply more probable place to accomplish his objectives and goal.
Hope that sharpens focus.
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Pro ball is not something to worry much about with Self unless he gets sideways in D1 over some issue.
Look at that list you made.
Then imagine the meeting.
"None of those guys is likely to win us a ring or win 82%.
"Self can.
"Imagine what 5 rings in 10 years and winning 82% of our games would do to revenue. We could all double our salaries and let contracts to our pals for retrofitting Cameron. And the shoe contract renegotiable alone will pay for Self.
“Hire Self!”
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You took my post out of context. I did not say that Wooden won because he had “West Coast Hype” I said "Except for the fist couple of years, UCLA won because it had overwhelmingly more talent than any other schools and, at that time,"
The fame and recruiting advantage of top talent came because of the fame and the presence of Sam Gilbert, who was the original World Wide Wes, and made it possible to get the better players, including black players, because of all the off the court benefits they got while John Wooden looked the other way. Without Sam Gilbert and all the players, black and white, he lured to UCLA, Jon Wooden does not win nearly as much.
That John Wooden won because he was given the go ahead and recruit black players is as myopic as the statement that UTEP in 1966 was the first team to win with mostly black players. This is completely incorrect. since most school (I am not saying all) were recruiting black players long before that. San Francisco won the Tournament in 1955 and 1956 with 4 black starters lead by Bill Russel and Casey Jones, Cincinnati won in 1962 with 4 blacks starters after the great Oscar Roberson had left, in 1963, Loyola did the same thing, however, lots of other teams with predominantly white players won the Tournament in between. Race was not the primary reason Wooden won, getting better players, regardless of color, is.
Phog Allen and Adolf Rupp, among others, were likely better coaches than Wooden but without the hype of the big name school and market and the talent Wooden accumulated, Phog Allen particularly is largely an unknown, except the KU faithful. We know that with today’s parity, no school is ever again going to win as many titles as often as UCLA did back then; those days are gone. If instead of coming to KU, Bill Self had gone to UCLA and had the same success he has had at KU, he would be considered the best coach ever, wouldn’t you agree?
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OK, I’m going to name who will succeed Bill Self- it will be Tyler Self. Bill will retire in about 10 years, and Tyler will replace him.
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You are REALLY gambling that 82% record here!
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I am now confident someone will.be selected to win more than Wooden. This is the March Carney you are talking about. There will come a time when revenues slump, or when revenues could be massively spiked, and the NCAA and the media-gaming complex needs something new to sell. Title strings are best sellers. Look at how much mileage they get just out of Self’s conference title run.
It’s almost a given.
Someone will be selected to break Wooden’s streak.
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Ok, Now were are getting somewhere. I agree that coaches leave programs for better opportunities, Self looked at MU as a clear step up from Tulsa and then went to Illinois, again, a step up from Tulsa. He then chose to come to KU since K, was undoubtedly a step up up from Illinois. I am not sure if going from KU to UK or Duke is necessarily a step up as much as a lateral move.
You cite all of the advantages that Duke offers, but you have to remember that Duke, while a decent program before Coach K, it only became an elite program UNDER Coach K and it is possible that after he retires, a lot of those advantages go away; his relationship with Basketball USA has now ended and that early contact with elite recruits is now gone. Look at Roy Williams, regardless of how successful he is at UNC, he will never get the admiration and respect Dean Smith gets in the same way that no one at UK will measure up to Adolph Rupp; Pitino, arguably the best coach at UK and the one that could have come close to Rupp is now coaching at Louisville, mostly because of the choices he made, and will never be in the run.
Again, I personally believe that the Duke , UK and KU HC positions are roughly at the same level and go up and down depending on who the coaches are. Coach K has been very good and his record shows, Calipari has brought a whole lot of hype and press (good and bad) to UK but, as they say in Hollywood…there is no such thing as bad press…and Coach Self has been the consistently outstanding coach with the matching record, and he is one or two championship away from being the best of our generation. There is no assurances that when any of these coaches leave, the programs will maintain the same level; this also true for several other elite programs as the Coach Ks and Selfs don’t come around that often.
Just my opinion.
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I can distill this even more.
Self has to get his share of the OAD and 5 star PGs and centers from the Nike stable to get the rings he needs to get beyond the one ring wonders to join the elite coaches with 4 or more rings.
He can do it at Duke and Coach K is reputedly leaving shortly.
Duke needs more rings than Coach K disciples can provide to stay at the elite level.
Nike needs Duke to remain a countervailing force to UNC-Jordan.
Cal at UK isn’t good enough to win a ring even 10 deep in OADs on a consistent basis, say, 3-4 in ten years.
Self is in the right place at the right time to jump to Duke and make everyone whole.
KU has to be proactive and fix the recruiting problem ASAP.
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@jaybate-1.0 This is so absurd
You have to just be so amazingly bored.
I’ve began reading your crazy posts in a Rush Limbaugh voice for added effect.
If you really are being serious, can I be your bookie? I’d love to start taking odds on Bill’s next career move.
- Becomes Duke’s next head coach: 1,000/1
- Becomes an NBA head coach: 2/1
- Retires from KU: 2/1
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Enjoy.
But Self is gone shortly unless the recruiting thing is solved at KU IMHO.
And Duke has Jay Bilas to help them make the sensible hire.
Wojo?
Amaker?
Brey?
Capel?
Self is their perfect fit.
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Bill Self will likely win a Title this year in spite of your thoughst about shoe-cos, and with a couple of pieces falling into place, he might repeat next year. Remember when the Florida players chose to come back for a second title?
You do know that the Jordan Brand is a subsidiary of Nike and thus any money it makes goes right to Nike, right? No conflict between Nike and Jordan.
Self is at the right place at KU with a programs that is all his and on track to get even better; breaking the consecutive conference title record will be a feat of historical proportions. He already has the record as a coach for most consecutive titles with 12 (Mark few is second with 11) and next season, when he breaks the record of 13 consecutive titles by UCLA, it will be even bigger deal since UCLA did it in 3 conferences and under 3 different coaches and with the help of 7 multi seasons First Team All-Americans (12 times total) while Coach Self had only 2, Simien and Robinson with one season each.
KU has had the #1 ranked recruit 2 of the last 3 years and many other highly ranked recruits as well and seems to be doing fine. UK has had the lion’s share of recruits recently…how is that working out for them? If not for McLemore being ineligible in 2012, KU likely has one more title…just sayin’
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He can likely eek another ring out over 10 years, since he is the best coach in the country.
But Self needs 4 in 10.
Odds of that extremely low at KU with current recruiting dynamics leaving the petroshoecos out of it.
Odds much stronger and dollars probably much greater at Duke.
I like my reasoning on this more and more.
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We’ve got those leaving bell blues Bill, We’ve got to keep you on the hill, Bill, We love you so We always will…
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I love me some Laura Nyro and the Fifth Dimension.
National Title Blues
Laura Nyro…with a little help from JayHawkFanToo
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Bill I love you so
I always will
I look at you and see
the passion eyes of March
Oh but am I ever gonna see
my National Title day?
Oh I was on your side Bill
when you were losin’
I’d never scheme or lie Bill
There’s been no foolin’
but wins and Conference Titles won’t carry me
till you get me a National Title Bill
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Bill I love you so
I always will
and in your voice I hear
a choir of rock Chalks
Oh but am I ever gonna hear
my National Title bells?
I was the one came runnin’
when you were lonely
I haven’t lived one day
not loving you only
but wins and Conference Titles won’t carry me
till you get me a National Title Bill
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Bill I love you so
I always will
and though devotion rules my heart
I take no bows
Oh but Bill you know
I wanna take my National Title vows
Come on Bill
Come on Bill
I got the National Title blues
I got the National Title blues
I got the National Title blues
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Just showing my age…
