Tharpe's Performance Inexplicable
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We need our PG to “manage” the game. Don’t turn it over and get the ball to the scorers. That’s it. Just don’t screw it up.
I assume it’s too late to change course now. But I still feel CF could do the job. Tonite he snapped the ball around the perimeter and got it to the right people all without launching one shot. If he played 30 minutes we would have won. IMHO.
@VailHawk Well said!
I think we’ve put too much expectation out of 90+ ranked Tharpe or 70+ ranked Mason. Mason showed more athletic abilities than Tharpe, but so far Mason is just a bull dog who showed more of his driving capabilities. If he has as high a ceiling of Tyshawn, he might become another Tyshawn when he is a senior. Somehow I don’t see it. I’d like to see Frankamp develop more speed and I like the fact that he already demonstrated glimpse of smarts playing the point.
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@drgnslayr You win as a team, and you lose as a team. Losses are NEVER on one person. Everyone contributed. That includes Bill Self and the coaching staff.
As I said earlier, you do with what you have, and having Tharpe with his head in the game and bringing good intensity and focus is good enough to get us to the Final Four, which would be a better result than in years past with very good teams.
Remember, there is a reason that people talk about getting hot in the tournament after having some struggles.
I want people on here to think things for the right reasons and see things for how they really are. For example, could we have a better point guard? Yes. However, we must further analyze Tharpes weaknesses to see what might cost us getting to Dallas. To me, his biggest weakness is being careless and not focusing. When Tharpe has focused and has not turned the ball over, isnt that good enough to at least get us to the Final Four? Of course it is!
It is not too much to expect your point guard to not be careless and not turn the ball over. If all Tharpe did was play good defense, move the ball well, set the pace, and not turn it over, it would be a good game.
Drgnslary you bring up a good point about this team not having a chip on its shoulder. However, the only teams we have had in the Bill Self era that have had a chip on their shoulder are the 12 and 08 teams.
You also make a point about how much better they would be if they had a better point guard. In my opinion, we do not need a different point guard. What we NEED is for coach Self to get Tharpe playing at the right level, which means not turning it over like last night. That is the job of the coach.
Also, I am not hoping and dreaming for Tharpe to mature or whatever else before the tournament. What I am hoping for is that he FOCUSES on fundamental and basic aspects of being the point guard, which is not turning the ball over, making shots when the team needs points, getting out and running(which I have seen him do numerous times despite what others say), and finding open teammates.
If they dont make it to the Final Four, it will be because Tharpe doesnt play SMART, not because he is incapable as some make him out to be. He is inconsistent, not incapable. What I hope for is Self taking charge of the team and getting the team and Tharpe ready to make a run in March.
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@drgnslayr I’ll tell you, after I posted this last night I kind of wondered if I should have taken a deep breath and waited until morning. I literally wrote that in 10 minutes. Very frustrated, but it wasn’t a momentary frustration. When I did the post on wanting more from Tharpe, it had been building a bit. A questioning of where his level of play could take us.
The only thing I would change in the post is when I referred to Tharpe as a “wimp.” I about edited it this morning. I think I’d rather say that he “projects himself as a soft and disinclined player, and plays many times without any apparent grit.” I think we’re all saying the same thing.
I think what I am having more appreciation for each day is the mental and physical toughness that coach Self tries to teach these guys, and how much that impacts every facet of the game.
@globaljaybird said above that when Embiid is “60-70% we are virtually screwed.” And he’s right. If Embiid is down, all of this discussion is immaterial. He truly is the key to our assent as we pretty much all agreed early on.
But Tharpe is the key to our possible descent – to our unthinkable plunge into the abyss. Assuming we’re healthy, he really is the one guy that can drag us down. But there is not much choice now. He’s the card that Self has put on the table – it’s just a matter of whether we match that 8 of clubs with a face card, or 7. Right now, it seems a bit like luck of the draw.
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@DinarHawk Good points. We don’t need Tharpe to win games for us. We just need him to not lose games for us. I think he is capable of doing that. I still hold out hope that Self and the staff can help him do that. If so, it is then a matter of the youngsters continuing to get better…which we have seen, to have a shot at a final four. Admittedly, after last night that is hard to envision. Usually, teams that make runs have started to gel by now. Let’s see how it plays out.
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“You win as a team, and you lose as a team.”
I typically support that statement. That is my statement from last year when people were pointing at EJ.
But this game I can’t see past Tharpe. He only had to play marginal for us to win. This is his team. He is the floor general. And he is the player that is responsible for this outcome.
It is rare when I go against your statement. This is one of those rare moments. We had 3 freshmen who are kids who have never been in this position. None of those kids have ever been to Stillwater. And they brought good game. Their games soured because of the clunky team play… which then points to our floor general. There was no way for those guys to take over and displace the hole Tharpe put us in.
I also blame CS for areas where I’ve ranted for years now… pretty much every time we go into the tourney and lose to teams we should beat.
I’m not blaming Tharpe as a person. He has overachieved at KU. I’m blaming his performance, because his performance level isn’t consistent enough to win out in March. It is hard to say if he can reach his potential to be the consistent player we need him to be. I’m not counting on that and I’m not got to slam Tharpe (the person). We are asking him to be one of the top PGs in the country and he wasn’t near that coming out of HS. And I have my doubts that our coaching knows how to coach PGs to their maximum potential.
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@drgnslayr you knew this was coming from me. Self needs to call Marshall for help? Really? When he wins 10 back to back championships, maybe! And throw that in w/a top conference! WSU is a great team. No question there. Seriously, this makes me puke! Would you rather have him?
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It makes me puke, too.
Why does Marshall’s guys always show up pumped to play? Why don’t our guys do that?
Why doesn’t Marshall’s guys TO the ball 22 times in a game?
How does he get walk-ons to a mid-major taking a team to 31-0, ranked 2, and those players in the hat for some of the personal awards our star players are in?
Why does WSU have a chip on their shoulders this year? They had the best year in their history last year. That wasn’t enough?
I’m still pissed off for last year. Why didn’t we have a chip for finishing runner-up to UK the year before? We never have a chip! It is the main reason we don’t win more NCs!
You know what really makes me want to puke? I see WSU once again trumping our NCAA performance. Tell me it won’t happen! And I hope your optimism is right!
I hope this is our last dud performance this year. But, to be honest… my gut tells me it’s not!
Why does my gut tell me we will be exiting early again?
I’ll answer that… because I don’t feel comfortable with our PG play. I know the value of PG play. PG = Quarterback
Sorry… I could probably use another example besides Marshall… but I can’t find another example that better illustrates areas where we need help!
BTW: I’m never going to trade Self for Marshall… or probably anyone else! But there are aspects of his coaching that I feel need help. He could go from being one of the best coaches of our day to becoming perhaps the best coach of all times! (anywhere!)
If Self resolves these issues he will win like Wooden. We’ll be stacking up NC trophies in AFH!
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@drgnslayr You know that’s an ignorant post, right? I mean, I enjoy your opinion, but you have to know that’s flat out ignorance.
Why doesn’t Marshall’s guys TO the ball 22 times in a game? Why do Marshall’s guys always show up pumped to play?
Well, besides the fact that a I think a lineup of Niko, Self, Manning, Wesley, and Christian Garret could probably give Missouri St. a run for their money, it seems kind of obvious. I don’t want to bash WSU because right now, they’re in fabulous position. But come on.
I saw a stat yesterday that was mind-boggling. If WSU gets a one-seed, which we all think they will, their first game against a 16 seed would be the toughest opponent they’ve faced outside of SLU! That’s incredible.
I agree with everything you said outside of the WSU nonsense. Tharpe is a liability. He’s a below average defender and has several games where it almost seems like he’s point shaving when it comes to dumb turnovers. If he has a single game like this in the tourney, we’re done. Either that or Self will have to sit him for a loooong stretch just to keep him from giving away possessions.
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@drgnslayr That goes back to my first question of what Self is telling his players. I always worry about an early exit and am very worried that it could happen this year. I think that we have to look at yesterday’s game with a grain of salt. I am with others in regards to the opinion that Self does not give his best effort against his alma mater. It is certainly a possibility.
You are right about Tharpe. He just needs to be solid and not make the mistakes he made last night. If he just does his job and doesnt try to be the hero, then we’ll be in good shape to get to Dallas.
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WSU’s woeful SOS is even more of a testament to their ability to rise for a game. It’s tougher to rise to play another dud team.
My statements weren’t about talent level. They were about coming pumped ready to play.
You really want to compare WSU to Niko and our lower bench? Really?
That position is shear arrogance. You might as well throw in all of our history and NCs. It’s all about the same relevance to this conversation. All those factors helped us last year… and are starting to look to help us the same this year.
I’m pushing everyone’s button because many in here despise WSU. I’m telling you all right now that hatred is holding you back from seeing reality. To deny what they are doing with the talent level they have is really missing the boat.
No… I’m not saying we drop down and recruit players on their talent level. I’m just addressing the areas of strength they have and what is helping them be ranked ahead of us with walk on players.
If it is so easy to do, we can start doing it now and start Niko and the rest.
It sucks because I’m using WSU to point at our weaknesses. They beat some pretty good teams last year in the tourney, and I’ll be surprised if they don’t have some level of success again. It will be even harder because their SOS did suck. I still bet they will be formidable in the tourney… even with their walk on starters.
I don’t have animosity towards WSU. So I can look at their game and see where they are succeeding… and in my books, they seem to be succeeding in areas where we need help. We are succeeding in areas they need help (recruiting).
None of this is ignorance.
Did you see their game yesterday? Bobby Knight was there as a paying fan and was interviewed about the Shocks… I’m basically mimicking factors that Knight talked about… just another ignorant fan I suppose?
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I will remain hopeful…
I am venting my fears… it is hard to see us playing consistent throughout the tourney.
It is games like this where many of us vent some things. It isn’t always easy to vent those things after other games where we still win, but show many of these same issues.
We looked horrible yesterday.
There is added stress now because we are less than a couple of weeks away from the tourney, and we have a game with 22 TOs? Most of those TOs were unforced!
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@drgnslayr I hear you on how impressive it is that WSU has managed to maintain a level of excellence even against lesser teams that might be hard to get ‘up’ for. But I also believe the margin for error is greater for WSU if they don’t get as motivated for a game.
They have not played many teams with individual talent like is seen on teams throughout the power conferences. My enthusiasm is curbed by knowing that if they went up against an unranked team like OSU twice, they would likely lose once. Especially if the previous three games included teams like ISU, Texas and KU. If they were a member of the ACC, Pac12, I think they would not be undefeated.
That’s not to say they wouldn’t be among the best in the country… just to say, there’s context to be considered in assessing their record and it’s not insignificant.
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You are right… WSU has a smaller margin for error.
This is part of why WSU is the perfect example for us.
Because perhaps we use our high talent level as a crutch… we have such a large margin for error… so we have room to slack off.
Otherwise… heck… we have the #1 and #2 recruits in the nation. We are a shoe-in to win another NC!
I shouldn’t worry!
I really hate being in this position. We sit on all the big talent then underachieve come tourney time. I can hear the jabs now… “KU, once again, underachieves at the Big Dance!”
I hate that… and we should all hate that more than hating WSU. If we can understand that… we can swallow a little of our pride and better understand how we can capture some of those qualities that have helped them.
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@drgnslayr Hopefully we got a bad game out of the way before the tournament:)
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@drgnslayr What I said is a lineup of the coach’s sons could give Missouri St. a run for their money. You know, the team WSU played this weekend. I guess you misunderstood what I was saying.
I think comparing KU’s game yesterday versus a team that has 3 NBA players on it to Missouri St. is ignorance. I think it’s very, very ignorant.
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I hope that is all it is.
But why don’t we throw in some extra motivation for Tharpe. We come down on him hard now and he comes out and plays harder. It’s using the bullwhip instead of the carrot!
He seems to respond to the whip.
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@drgnslayr Hopefully that will be the case again and he will be motivated to take his team to Dallas.
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What does talent level have to do with coming prepared and motivated?
WSU plays teams with low talent level… but WSU has a low talent level, too. They beat up on their peers 31 times so far.
If it makes you feel better… I’ll use the UCONN women’s team and make the same argument. They friggin’ rock!
So I guess only the top NBA teams are prepared every game and motivated?
Did you listen to Bobby Knight yesterday?
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@drgnslayr Getting up to play has been a problem since Bill Self got here. Lets hope that this team has a sense of urgency in the tournament.
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Sorry… this is the competitive part of me. And when I go in this mode I can be a jerk.
Marcus Smart… move over!
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@drgnslayr We’re getting far removed from the point now.
You said why does WSU show up pumped and ready to play. I think the point is that they’re playing a team that is .500 in a historically bad conference. WSU is by far the superior team. How pumped do you need to be to beat Missouri St.?
Your comparison of a historically phenomenal women’s team is just proving the point for me (I mean didn’t UConn go undefeated for two seasons??). When you’re playing a team that is significantly inferior to you, how pumped do you need to be?
KU was playing a team that had 3 future NBA players on it (I’m point out how talented OSU is, not that NBA players are prepared and motivated every game…and it doesn’t hurt that they were fighting for the postseason fate). WSU won’t have play a game against a team with that kind of talent until the round of 32, or the Sweet Sixteen.
To put it simply, how pumped does WSU need to be to play Evansville, Loyola, S. Illinois, etc. The comparison doesn’t work. It’s a poor one.
It doesn’t matter though. No need to apologize. And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart.
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we can swallow a little of our pride and better understand how we can capture some of those qualities that have helped them.
@drgnslayr My view is that WSU plays exceedingly well as a unit and knows how to maximize their talents. I think this is what comes with a veteran team – understanding of how parts fit together… greater elasticity… ability to avoid mistakes and make up for them better.
That gives them an advantage in many situations. They also have very good talent.
We have exceptional talent at several positions, but not the experience of how to take advantage of each other. WSU is a better team right now than almost any other out there based on who they have played.
I just don’t think they have been tested as much as some other schools… That doesn’t mean they won’t win when tested, it just means there’s a caveat in my mind. We don’t know as much about their weaknesses… and they don’t know as much about about their own weaknesses, either.
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And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart.
@MoonwalkMafia SO TRUE:
thanks @CrimsonorBlue22 for the photo… Wowsa.
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@bskeet @drgnslayr ^^^ Now that is something I’ll agree with. If we’re going to go singing WSU praises, how bout their defense (albeit against NAIA teams)? Their offense is average at best, but defense is the kind of thing that travels and can be turned up against anyone.
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“You said why does WSU show up pumped and ready to play. I think the point is that they’re playing a team that is .500 in a historically bad conference. WSU is by far the superior team. How pumped do you need to be to beat Missouri St.?”
I think you mean… how pumped up does KU needs to be to beat Missouri State. Missouri State is in WSU’s league… aren’t we all saying they don’t have the talent of B12 teams? WSU = MSU WSU needs plenty of motivation to beat MSU, especially at MSU. In fact, MSU game WSU the biggest scare this year by being the only team to take WSU to overtime! Meanwhile… WSU had less trouble at St. Louis, a Top 10 team.
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“And you could never, ever, be as big of jerk as Marcus Smart.”
Well… I know me and I’ve had a good taste of Marcus Smart.
I can match his jerkiness!
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@drgnslayr I think we’re just going to keep repeating ourselves here. Let’s just agree to disagree.
…Now all I can think of is Marcus Smart. Very irritated now.
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@drgnslayr we all hate underachieving ! We’re a group that loves KU bb! Please understand, I don’t hate the WSU team, I love how they play hard! I have a sour taste for “chickenhawk” Marshall! When you suggested Self call him, that hurts, a lot of us! Everyone here respects you, I’m in awe of your knowledge on all things, it’s really hard to cross you! There’s no way I could win an argument w/you. I hope you understand what I mean??? Rock Chalk!
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Talk about a grand slam… yesterday… for me… it was when Mr. Know-it-all Bilas supported one of Marcus Smart’s obvious flops.
He then commented about how if Marcus keeps over emphasizing his falls it might turn against him.
Wow, Bilas… about time. The entire world has discussed this for ages now and you finally pay attention.
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"When you suggested Self call him, that hurts, a lot of us! "
I apologize. That is my competitiveness. I went for the biggest eye-opener to stress that we need help in that area.
Like I said… Marcus Smart has nothing on me!
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@drgnslayr I don’t think you are as bad as Smart! Not yet, anyway!
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@drgnslayr did you all see he flopped on the baseline when Perry was called for the foul, not the tackle he had on Perry. Saw a gif on both of those today.
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Give me time!
What I do well is apologize after I attack peoples’ sensibilities.
My ex used to call me out on that… said it was just part of my competitiveness. Still trying to prove I was right or whatever.
My wife doesn’t play that hard. She just snickers at my competitiveness.
She knows how to defuse and diffuse…
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@drgnslayr smart lady!!!
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Not that smart. She ended up with me!
My ace in the hole is I let her know that pointing out how bad I am also points out how bad of a choice she made!
Just one more competitive angle I’ve used…
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Once again… sorry to everyone in here about some of my over-the-top statements. I have the upmost respect for everyone in here… I’m already feeling the sadness coming after the season is over and we are all busy in our gardens! Gonna miss everyone in here!
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@drgnslayr I like Jay Bilas. Maybe now’s a good time to express how much I can’t stand Brent Musberger. Maybe that’s unfair…
But clearly he doesn’t know the game or the players, and is just all around oblivious to what’s going on. Stick him with Fran Franschilla (who I do like, but doesn’t offer much to counter Brent’s ineptitude) and it’s bad news bears.
I didn’t get to watch the game last night, I listed to it on the radio. Don’t know if anyone likes Bob Davis, but that’s a whole nother deal.
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@DinarHawk-100% accurate, 22 TO’s is just insane. Plenty of blame to go around, including coach for not pushing the PT more towards alternate options.
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@drgnslayr geez, we’re not going anywhere!! I have summers off so I’ll be expecting some hot topics. My 'maters have been bad the last 2 years, expecting some help!
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I used to like Jay. But the last 2 years I’ve started to change my opinion. He knows quite a bit about basketball… and often he is right on… but other times I find him to come up short, but his persona is a bit too arrogant. He seems to project that his comments are pure fact when often they are not. I follow his statements closely and I’ve watched him squirm around after some of his statements later. He seems to be too much like a politician for my liking. A bit too slick sometimes with his words.
That’s just my opinion. At least he isn’t a total airhead or mush-head!
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What’s up with your 'maters? Too much heat?
Two years ago I had a really excellent crop when everyone around me had nothing. ('maters)
First… I had my toms in early, so they were producing before the big heat came. Second… I had two water sources for them on timers. I had soakers to feed the roots… and I had misters spraying the tops during the hot time of day. I am blessed with late day shade. Maters like sun… but in super hot weather they like some late day shade, too.
I think my timed daily soaker watering was key. It was so hot that it only took one day without water and they would go into shock. I also mulch big time to keep the ground from cooking up and drying out.
You can save a lot of water by having your soak hoses BELOW your mulch! I’d go with a solid 3" or more of mulch! I use recycled chipper branches from the city trucks. It is free and it is lighter because it is untreated and not dyed. Lighter means it helps keep the soil cooler in the hot months.
Periodically, give your toms some coffee grinds. The grinds are a slow release source of nitrogen. But even better… crawlers LOVE coffee grinds! So they will surface to go after it. And the caffeine jacks them up (just like us). The more active the worms, the more holes they dig in your dirt, and more castings they leave behind! For a 4 month period, I have a relationship with several starbucks in my area. They save me grinds and I always bring them a few nice organic veggies.
If your soil is clay… treat it with gypsum. Over several years, gypsum treatments help break down clay into dirt. Gypsum also is a great source of calcium… something often lacking in soil and helpful for preventing rot end. Of course… turning your soil every year with some compost or composted manure, also helps break down clay. You should condition your soil every year to help revitalize it for another crop year. It helps if you move your veggies around so toms don’t always grow in the same spot… but if you can’t, soil conditioning will help guarantee another successful year!
BTW: I shouldn’t ever get down too hard on the purple kitties. I’ve always received plenty of help from some of their ag students!
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@drgnslayr LOL. Did they teach all these during your KU days or did you get it from sneaking into the Octagon of whatever?
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Hahahahaheee… I’ve never actual been to the Sherronagon. But it looks like it would make an awesome greenhouse! Pluck holes in the roof and bring in some irrigation!
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@drgnslayr We plant 70 per year in the heat here in Texas and each plant has its own mister at the base set with timers. Afternoon shade is essential. Raked leaves piled down each row and around each plant help keep the soil from drying out. Haul them to town in coke flats by the ton and sell them at work. Nothing better than vine ripened sun kissed 'maters.
As far as the game goes, the outcome from last night has to be something they all learn from. I did not think the cards were aligned on our side because OSU had to get the win to even get in the tourney. But our TOs gave OSU the ability to stay within striking distance and they did not squander that chance.
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@drgnslayr I’m saving this for later. Late April talk!
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We can all take some pointers from you! Over-heating has been an issue in Kansas for the past years… so someone successful in Texas must have resolved these issues!
Yep… sure you are right about OSU having more to gain from that victory. I just want to stir the pot as much as possible from here on out. Don’t want anyone falling asleep come tournament time!
I said a couple of days ago the best outcome for us now would be to drop a couple more games… get beat up by the media and have a lower seed than in previous years. Anything to build a chip on these guys. We know what they can do when they have a chip on their shoulders… they showed us against Texas!
So how do we get the team that mutilated Texas to show up for 6 games in the tourney?
Ultimately… that is what I want to see happen, and I can’t think of anything except getting out the bullwhip and crackin’ it a few times!
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@drgnslayr Exactly! I have been saying for weeks that they need some more losses to help them get that chip on their shoulder. I felt like they didnt have enough losses in '10 and '11 and felt like they could just show up and win. I am fine if that would be the case. That is why I do not want them to get a 1 seed, because they might get a sense of entitlement as a result of it.
They need to stay a little under the radar and get motivated to play like what they did against Texas.
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@DinarHawk I soooo hope you guys are right! That’s tough for me.
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@DinarHawk Do you think the Big 12 tournament will be a motivator?
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@drgnslayr We have the seeds already sprouting in the greenhouse. Usually plant the 3rd week of March. We are at 32 degrees today and supposed to get down in the 20s tonight. Our beans and cucumbers came up in the garden last week and we’ve had to cover them. Was 82 yesterday. Know you have it worse so hang in there.
