What the architect of sustained excellence against the odds looks like
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@jaybate-1.0 Does it have to do with Baylor’s post men driving from the foul line and short wing areas to draw fouls?
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OMG, you must not have watched the UMass team with Camby. Camby was the first or second best center. Period. UMass had as good of a roster their big season, as most of the elite teams.
Cal never wins big without a marquis player and a ton of depth and some guys that do something or other that stimulate investigations that Cal is later found to know nothing about. Its an apparent pattern.
UMass. Camby and lots of bodies.
Memphis. Derek Rose, CDR, Dozier, and probably better depth than this year’s KU team.
UK. Why master the obvious.
Same formula.
Common thread: same Big Shoe-Agency Complex.
I just don’t recall Cal taking a team with no Mickey D’s to the Finals, do you?
Self did.
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@jaybate-1.0 Or the short wing /free throw area ball screens that they struggled with in the first half?
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You forget one key ingredient? The era that you play in. The Wizard coached in a time when kids played 4 years of basketball. Coach does not.
Whether we like it or not the College game is in the OAD era. Until the NBA players union decides to change the rules of the game.
Meaning as we have already seen the UK’s and Dukes and other schools with stacks are starting over every year. Maybe this is why Coach is taking a different approach? Think about it?
If KU wins it all this year they will indeed be setup for another great run for next year. As Coach isn’t just recruiting for this year but next…
The key is Coach is changing how he coaches. He is indeed stepping outside the box.
Something to think about.
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@DoubleDD exactly. There is a possibility of back to back final fours.
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Naw, I never forget that. It just isn’t necessary to talk about, because its obvious, like the difference between Chucks and modern shoes, and difference exerted on asymmetric recruiting by the contemporary petroshoeco-agency complex of today, versus its absence then.
But if you want to talk about it, well, what it distills to is this: if neither Self, nor Wooden team has recruits ready to start as first year players (e.g., Wooden’s first two ring teams with Hazard and Goodrich), it was much tougher to get W’s in the old days because almost every game you were going up against mature, well drilled 22-24 year olds back then, and now most of your games against highly ranked opponents are 17-18 year old, low foundationed, high ceilinged Sushi that has to play like an AAU team till about February.
On the flip side, if you’ve cornered the top players, like the Jabbar lead, or the Walton lead, first year UCLA teams, or like Cal’s 2012 UK team with monobrow, then you are playing guys with such great talent that you are in the driver’s seat in either era.
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@DoubleDD said:
The key is Coach is changing how he coaches. He is indeed stepping outside the box.
I am not as sure Self is changing how he coaches as:
a.) Self is putting the finishing touches on Multiple Offense 2.0 that he has been working on pieces of the last two years; and
b.) fans are catching up to how Self has always coached.
Regardless, we agree that what he is doing is very effective right now.
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Yet UK’s OAD era greatness is that 2012 team. Yet put another 5 mins on the clock and UK’s best OAD team loses.
Disagree?
No what Coach is doing this year is far from what he’s ever done. Coach has never allowed free rein from the 3 line. I’ve seen this year were there are no bigs in the paint. Never happened before.
No sir Coach is reinventing himself, and no he’s not playing bad ball. Not even close.
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I go back and forth on that KU-UK Finals game in 2012.
I love those guys with all my heart and I really do believe they were fighting back with their usual never say die attitudes and their competitive greatness that they possessed in spades. This part of me thinks they were closing in for the kill and just ran out of time.
But there is the other side of it; the strategic side of it that I recall @drgnslayr being the first to call board rats’ attentions to a day or two after the game. He said UK could have beaten us by a hundred points with that team, but they let the air out of the ball to slow the game down and not humiliate us.
I think there was something to what he said, though I hate to admit it.
But the truth I have settled on is some combination of the following.
UK blew us out in the first half. The second half Cal did what all Larry Brown disciples like Cal and Self do with a big lead. They stop playing balls to the walls and they start defending the lead. The lead necessarily shrinks. If it shrinks below a certain amount, they then goose the tempo back up and try to separate again, then slow down and defend the lead again. Last season I called it spending the lead, while playing Bad Ball. But you can defend/spend the lead with many offenses played at a tempo geared to reduce the remaining possessions and so greatly reduce the statistical possibility of coming back for a W.
I think UK was a team of overwhelming talent that season and had that rarest of all combinations a few huge talents that were also furious competitors. Monobrow was a great, great competitor on top of being a great talent. So was that goddamned guard of theirs. And Kidd-Gilchrist was an every game MUA.
KU on the other hand was a great, great team that was massively overachieving, because of character and the pieces fitting together just so.
Both coaches bring a Larry Brown point of view to game strategy, despite running different offenses, and know each other do.
I think there is no getting around that UK beat the shit out of KU that first half.
It was quite like KU beating the shit out of UNC that first half in 2008.
The reason one team can beat the hell out of another team the first half has to do with that team being better than the other team, and having a really peak performance.
The reason the lesser team comes back is that it has a great coach and players with great character that play very well as a team, and they are doing it against another team defending a lead.
Remember Roy’s Boys took KU to the buzzer that second half of the UNC game.
Recall Bill’s Boys pushed UK down the stretch also.
This is what happens when a talented team plays a great team with lesser players, and the more talented team has a peak performance the first half. The great team with lesser talent can and does fight back relentlessly as the talented team in the lead defends that lead.
Once in a great while teams come from behind and win. Most often they come from behind and just don’t quite get it done. But to have a chance win, you HAVE to come from behind and coming from behind against a super talented team is a huge accomplishment even if you finally can’t get it done.
But, still, the fact remains, the team in the lead is purposely playing defend the lead and spending that lead.
So its complicated and the answer is its some of both.
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He ran two possessions of Bad Ball in the first half of the Baylor game. I always make a mental note of it because I often hear persons saying he isn’t playing any Bad Ball. He ran the EXACT drive action that was quintessential Bad Ball. But then went on to other stuff. He ran a ton of High Low the second half of the Baylor game when he was defending the lead. But when the lead closed some he went back to the Quick Trigger Trey game. Some possessions of Quick Trigger were run out of four out 1 in, but most were run out of the high low.
Multiple Offense 2.0 usually tries some of everything Self has done in the past the first half, then scopes down to the one or two things that worked best the first half, given which players the opponent is playing the second half and what point spread is at that time of the game.
And as far as giving players a green light at the trey stripe, well, by the stretch run of the 2008 season, Chalmers, Rush and Sherron ALL had the green light from the trey and they got their trey looks with essentially the same approaches, as I recall it.
The one thing Self has more of this season than any season I can recall is guys that can ding the trey: Frank, Wayne, Perry, and Brannen are all reliable. Devonte is so busy doing other things that he does not seem quite as accurate lately. Svi is believed to be, but he has never showed it except for one or two games in isolation. Still even without Svi, that is more than Self has had on other teams. So that means that more guys have the green light from trey land. BUT and this is an important but, KU is still taking about the same number of treys it has most season, except for last one down the stretch when everyone was injured and Self invented Bad Ball to back into the title.
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“I would bet Cal would not trade rosters with Self even up even this season.”
Think this is an interesting question.
At first I thought… of course Cal would swap. But on second thought… our big producers have lots of experience with “Self ball” and Cal doesn’t have the same strategy Self has. If he suddenly took this team over it would melt down quickly.
First… have you ever watched Cal coach? He talks to his players like they are 3 years old. That works with 18 year olds. But with highly-trained 22 year old adults? I think not. If he spoke to me that way, even when I was 18, I would walk away from him.
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@DoubleDD @DinarHawk Its been interesting to hear Self describe Lon Kruger as a guy who excels at “getting his players to play with free minds offensively.” Reveals this is a topic he’s been thinking about…and apparently embracing!
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@ajvan funny to me because I was watching OU quickly getting behind ISU by jacking up really quick shots. Once they settled in and ran some O they caught up and finally won.
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@ajvan Great quote. “Free minds offensively” – incredibly important; it was a topic that was greatly discussed last season, to be sure. But if coach Self isn’t going to pound the “fool’s gold” stuff anymore and limit shooters, we can all move forward quite contently, I would think. I know I am very content.
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Here’s what worries me about this team and the NCAA tourney. Over the long haul of the season we will be very good…I have no doubts about that. But I am troubled by our lack of big men’s ability to get points inside…without our guards penetrating (Perry can unless he is defended by a much taller player). What happens if we run into someone with the back court to keep us out of the lane and we have an off night behind the arc? I know I’m sounding the fools gold alarm, but… Can someone give me some comfort here?
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The BIA can neither confirm nor deny vulnerabilities in the team scheme, but I would keep that under your hat too.
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@Hawk8086 depth! Someone’s off? there’s a guy on the bench, or a few on the bench. A lot of weapons sitting there.
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KU scored 40 points in the paint against Baylor…looks pretty good to me…
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@jaybate-1.0 1992 UMass, a 2 that couldn’t make 3’s, and a front line that was 6-3 and 6-7 and he made the Sweet 16 with that group.
And who did Cal have besides Camby on that FF team? Camby was that team and his supporting cast was average at best that year. And Marcus Camby was not a McDonald’s All American.
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Some years a Camby is all it takes. Like some years having an Anthony Davis is decisive. UK had 6 OADs, but without Monobrow UK just wasn’t a contenduh!!!
This year, a team with Camby, or Monobrow, would probably clean up in D1. Capice?
If this year’s KU team had Camby, or Monobrow? I would bet the farm on KU running the table from here on and winning the ring, wouldn’t you?
The UMass roster was comparable in quality to any D1 Elite team that season. Cal and WWW reputedly saw to that. That was really the team that started the legend of WWW, as I recall. What more need be said?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Let’s hope they jack up quick shots tonight! At least for the all important, momentum-controlling opening minutes. Would be nice to have a big lead after 5 minutes ala Baylor.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m really curious what Self has done to free up mental space for this team’s offense, trey shooting being the case in point. His hangups with threes in the past are well documented. Quick hooks for quick triggers. Whatever he’s done to make his perimeter guys less gun-shy is paying off in spades. I love it!
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ISU controlled the game early and well into the second half…how did it work out for them? The key is controlling the game late., when it really counts…lead or not…just sayin’
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I’m really curious what Self has done to free up mental space for this team’s offense, trey shooting being the case in point. His hangups with threes in the past are well documented. Quick hooks for quick triggers. Whatever he’s done to make his perimeter guys less gun-shy is paying off in spades. I love it!
Most would call it coaching?
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" What happens if we run into someone with the back court to keep us out of the lane and we have an off night behind the arc? I know I’m sounding the fools gold alarm, but… Can someone give me some comfort here?"
There is no way anyone can guarantee we win out in March.
But… to answer your question and give you a bit of comfort… If we can’t score inside and our outside shot isn’t falling (this will surely happen, probably more than once), then we still have an excellent chance of winning a “GRIND GAME.” Let’s not forget, these are actually the games Self likes.
Remember the end of last year? We did win quite a few of those games but we pretty much were in grind games often at the end of the year, while Self had to be convinced that pounding the ball inside was never going to improve.
Now it looks like all those grind games may pay us back with some really great karma because it gave us the experience to grind it out to victory! I’m sure we will have several of these games in B12 play this year, especially on the road.
Consider a few of our advantages…
First… depth. That should help us in many ways. One… is we can play a deeper rotation so key players still have energy at the end of the game, giving us a slight advantage to win close games down the stretch.
Second… our depth is DIVERSE depth. We have players with their own unique skill sets. So maybe our starting lineup is ice cold from trey. Maybe BG comes in and shoots 6-6 from trey?
Third… we have EXPERIENCED depth. We also have some newbies, too, but we have plenty of experienced players, both starting and riding the pine that can produce, especially in the clutch on close games. This is big!
Fourth… we have SOLID defense. We aren’t a “fool’s gold” team because we can win games where we shoot poorly from trey.
Look… we are capable of losing to any D1 team on any given night. Same can be said of the rest of D1.
As good as we are, and as good as we may become… a bit of luck will do us wonders in March.
Having good luck means… not losing key players to injury, especially during March Madness when it is hard to make adjustments quickly.
Having good luck means… we stay hot enough with our shooting over our opponents.
Having good luck means… our opponents never are hotter on FG% than us.
Of course, skill plays a big part in this. But sometimes it is just luck. Give me a basketball, blindfold me and set me at half court. Eventually I will make the shot. Sometimes shots just drop for players/teams, sometimes they don’t. An inch here or there can mean the difference of blowing out another team, or having them blow out us.
I think we have some margin for error this year. That should help us, but no guarantees.
Compare us to other teams. Compare us to OU. They lose Buddy to injury and they are a .500 team. They lose any of their other starters and they are not a Top 10 team. Also consider foul trouble. Also consider having to win the final moments of a tough-fought game when everyone is exhausted.
OU has NO margin for error. I don’t care what the stats say, their defense will have to buckle down big time to beat top teams. I like our chances mostly because defense is our calling card.
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@ajvan I know that some still don’t agree with me. But when a coach gets in the head of a shooter, puts limits on the when/where/why/how, makes the shooter think before triggering, that is going to negatively impact the player. It’s called a “free mind” as you aptly quoted. If a free mind helps an offensive player as Self suggests, then we can logically infer the opposite is also true – and anyone who has been around the game knows this to be true. We saw what happened last season when minds were free. We saw what happened when our offensive focus changed mid-game. And we saw what happened when the hammer came down.
What Self has done more than anything is simply supported their strengths. He’s embraced it. He’s opened his mind and been flexible. We can tell he’s not doing what he did last season – complain constantly about not being able to score inside, forcing us mid-game to pound it inside, etc. That doesn’t mean we won’t miss shots. It’s just that we have a culture and approach that supports a free mind. I think it’s really quite simple.
@JayHawkFanToo You said, “Most would call it coaching” – You say that as if this season exists in a vacuum. Do we simply forget last season? Just once, you might consider the possibility that Self handled things incorrectly with the team last season, and now he’s adjusted. It is called coaching. Good coaches “learn a lot” from experiences, as Self said after the WUGs. And all good coaches learn from their mistakes. The change in Self’s approach is amazing. I do think posters here can learn from their mistakes, as well.
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Are you suggesting that Self is not doing a great coaching job THIS season, which was the one the original post addressed?..never mind, silly question…
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@JayHawkFanToo No, I think Self is doing a tremendous job this season. While there may be little disagreements with post personnel that create a lot of discussion, that in no way overshadows the excellent job we’ve seen so far.
This is really a big deal for Self. He’s a guy that has done it one way for years – with unabridged focus and really, with little flexibility. I’ve said this may times before, leaders get to the top by being inflexible, by doing it their way. Hard to deviate from the tried and true formula. But he’s deviating. He’s pairing scheme with the team’s strengths. A complete credit to the man himself.
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You realize that even what you call poor seasons, most teams would kill for, right? Try being a UK fan losing in the first round of the NIT to Bobby Mo…now THAT is a bad season…and with a boat load of top players to boot You often mention UConn as an example of what you want KU to achieve…how many times have they missed the dance lately? Would you be happy watching other teams at the dance while yours sits at home?
If Coach Self continues coaching like he has since he has been to KU, I would be delighted, and if I ever start to think otherwise, I will cleanse my mind by reading how MU passed on him and watching a video of the UK-Robert Morris NIT game…that will set me straight in a hurry.
No need to answer. We both see it differently and I am not. saying that my view is better or worse…just different. Fair enough?
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“You often mention UConn as an example of what you want KU to achieve…how many times have they missed the dance lately? Would you be happy watching other teams at the dance while yours sits at home?”
I totally get your point… but most of the people in here would trade 11 conference titles for 1 national championship. So… I’m pretty sure people will trade a year or two of sitting out March for another National Championship.
I, on the other hand, really enjoy our conference titles and NCAA March streak of participation, as those two things show we are a consistent powerhouse. Of course, I want more NCs, too…
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“I’ve said this may times before, leaders get to the top by being inflexible, by doing it their way.”
Let me add to that…
Leaders get to the top by being inflexible, by doing it their way. Leaders STAY at the top by being flexible, and adapting to the times.
I think Self is starting to realize this.
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@JayHawkFanToo Ya think? Teams that close out strong typically win but a fast start is fun to watch and can create an insurmountable lead. Just sayin…
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@JayHawkFanToo Thanks, great insight there! sarcasm font
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t even understand how you get from my post to your post. It did give me a chuckle, though. Thanks.
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If you can’t see the big change in how Coach is game planning this year then I don’t know what to tell you? Last year had so much promise as the team and fans got a taste of what things could be. Sadly Coach went back to his tried and true and the season ended in a disaster. No a conference championship though nice didn’t not save the season. As we all know KU and coach win it every year.
The fact is coach is embracing a new style of playing the game. Take a minute and give him some props. This team last year was barely a top 20 team. This year they are quickly becoming the team to beat. Even media types are saying the MSU lose was indeed a fluke. This isn’t happening because Coach is playing his tried and true High/low scheme. No he is embracing the trey and the midrange jumper fully knowing at some point the ball will go inside.
Give Coach some props. It’s not easy to change what you’ve always done.
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@drgnslayr Makes me feel a little better. But, I don’t think our defense is as good as past years. Hopefully will continue to improve.
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Yea in so many ways I would agree in what you’re laying down
That UK was most impressive. Yet I don’t think it was the UK overwhelming talent that one that game. It was indeed the Unibrow that just took over. It got so bad that KU guards were passing up easy layups for fear of being rejected. Not a fond memory by any means.
Yet I would debate the taking the foot off the pedal a little bit. Yes I know it does happen, hell we’ve seen KU do it. Yet I would make the argument that UK played lights out in the first half of that National Championship game with no hope of repeating the results in the second half. Think about it is quite a rare thing to see a team play lights for two halves. Meaning and my point there was no way UK could duplicate the numbers they put up in that first half.
I firmly believe if given another 5 minutes KU wins that game… Alas that is not how it works. Yet I stand by my guns. UK in all their greatness got rocked in that second half and were grasping for anything to hang onto the lead they damn near lost.
Yet what do I know?
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U make a really useful comment about OU trying quick treys, then running the stuff. It means Lon is already on Bill’s page. Quick treys to steal a lead one can defend; then if that doesn’t work, run the stuff.
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Coach has to play with what he has at hand. This year’s edition is quite different than last year and the players themselves in addition of having one additional year of experience, seem to also have a much better attitude and the chemistry is quite different as well. I don’t believe last year’s team had the skills, maturity and chemistry to play like the current team. The better Self teams had a fair number of junior s and seniors and that seeems to be the type of players that run the system the best.
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It’s basically the same team from last year? Ah never mind I’m to tired my friend. The epic OU battle was about all I can handle.
Good night.
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The argument that a college team with the same players is the same from one year to the next is silly. The additional experience and maturity and the off season or preparation make a huge difference. Maybe in the NBA this is the case but certainly not in college where the younger players improve by leap and bounds…can you honestly tell me that the current players re not much better than they were last year? I think not.
Now to enjoy the KU win…
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@JayHawkFanToo I have no idea how anyone even takes the time to read your posts.
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If you can’t refute an argument, attack the poster…got it…
