Preseason starting 5 thoughts and speculations
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@wissoxfan83 I could but he would probably block me on FB.
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@wissoxfan83 said:
@Statmachine Since you got insider status apparently, could you ask the coach for us what the heck he was thinking last year with his fools gold statement?
PHOF!
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@wissoxfan83 It is actually really difficult when I see that one of our guys is on FB to keep cool and NOT IM them 100 times a day and ask every question under the sun. I would have probably been blocked by now if I acted in that manner though! I do think its totally awesome that I do get to interact with them and that they are receptive and very humble.
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Just another quick thought. Maybe we should all temper our expectations for Diallo this year. Which freshmen in the Self era at KU has had a long leash and a green light to go out and get points on a broken play? Wigs, thats it. Unless I am mistaken. Not even Joel Embiid was ready to start that first game, first tip off. I am fully expecting Cheick to be cleared this season, I just do not know when. When it happens, would Coach put Cheick in over Hunter, not having been up to speed with the rest of the team?
I find that hard to believe.
That said, I think Diallo, once cleared, will have a major impact for us, just not right out of the NCAA clearance gate.
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I am done badgering the guys with questions for the rest of this week BUT this thread spiked my curiosity? I asked Graham âWith Wayne doing so well in the WUG at the 3 does that mean he will spend more time at the 3? If so does that open up more minutes for you at the 2 playing along side Frank and Wayne?â. He responded âno idea , thatâs something coach self would have to answerâ. So thatâs your answer folks lol. I would imagine there is a elephant in the room regarding how HCBS decides who starts and what position this season? With full out practice right around the corner we should start hearing how things are going and what to expect to start out this season.
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I think the Cliff issue is one of semantics. Many saw him as not hustling enough and other side cite his stats as proof that he was, but number alone do not tell the entire story.
In my opinion, it is not as much that Cliff did not hustle but more that he was so poorly prepared for Div. I play, physically, mentally and BBall IQ wise, that it looked at times like he was not trying hard, particularly when he would get caught out of position in defense and there would be an opponent wide open. Yes, he had a fair number of blocks in the time he played, no doubt a result of his innate athletic ability, but you also have to consider how many point he allowed when he got caught out of position.
In Coach Self"s system, defense is king and if you are not playing good defense you are going to ride the pine , which is exactly what he did. I have no doubt that with an extra year or two and once he had a chance to improve his BBall IQ and learn the system better, he would have been a potential lottery pick. It is really too bad that his family forced him into yet another situation he is/was not prepared for, Hopefully with some competent coaching and patience from his NBA team, he can develop into a serviceable, or at least a journeyman player in the NBA,
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@JayHawkFanToo I would add, specifically, that Cliff did hustle. He did get up and down the court. He did work on defense. I think there were moments where he got caught out of position, didnât move when he should have, or was stagnant. And, of course, times where he didnât hustle. I think we just forget our other freshmen. How many times did Wiggins lolly-gag down the court? I certainly saw Embiid in many lazy moments. Somehow Wiggins didnât get yanked. I think that is exactly the same thing that happens to Traylor, as well, but heâs not a freshman or a sophomore.
I think with Cliff, Self was irritated with a multitude of things that added up to limited minutes. Defensive miscues certainly being one. But Iâd much rather have Cliff playing defense for me than Traylor. Any day of the week. He contested shots better, he held his position better, and he created more possessions (defensive rebounding).
I guess my biggest issue with Cliff not playing is really the chosen alternative. I donât dispute that Self probably had very valid reasons in his mind. Other coaches might view those issues differently, and might have approached it differently.
Personally, I think Self was trying to mold the player he wanted Cliff to be, and the molding process, as you noted, was going to take more time â particularly âmentallyâ and âBBall IQ wiseâ as you noted.
Again, itâs just hard to stomach the alternative during this process when Cliff just flat performed better than the alternative most all of the time.
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@HighEliteMajor I always felt people ignored fatigued when arguing for more mins for Cliff. I think you hit the nail on the head about Self molding him with his âdog houseâ routine, but I also feel that Cliff wasnt in condition to go more than 20 mins a game, he always seemed to start hot then cool down after 3-5 mins, and was noticably less exsplosive at the rim or on defense.
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@JayHawkFanToo @HighEliteMajor @clevelandjayhawk
I like the idea of merging all 3 of your comments into being a good perspective on Cliff.
I like your explanation about him not being prepared for D1. Oh so true.
Iâm with you on Cliff showing hustle. First off⌠he wasnât prepared for D1 coming in. Some guys seem more prepared, or at least, fit the mold easier coming out of HS. Cliff had to make up ground with hustle. And he did. I specifically recall watching him towards the end hustling down the court (back on defense) ahead of all other Jayhawks.
Right on. Cliff didnât arrive in Lawrence in near shape to run in D1. I donât think most fans understand the speed of D1 and the needed conditioning. On top of it all, Cliff was a tank on wheels. He was moving a lot of weight up and down the court. He started to maintain less winded performances at the end. Another year of KU ball and he would have been in the right shape.
From all of this⌠what I get out of it was Cliff NOT being lazy and he DID hustle. Sometimes he looked slow⌠but that is with almost all freshmen who are trying to figure out the game in real time.
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From all of this⌠what I get out of it was Cliff NOT being lazy and he DID hustle. Sometimes he looked slow⌠but that is with almost all freshmen who are trying to figure out the game in real time.
Which we should probably expect from Diallo and Bragg this season. Bragg has a head start, being able to play with the team during the WUGâs.
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Unfair comparison with Wiggins. When Wiggins came in, he was in much better shape than Alexander, had a much higher BBall IQ and frankly, I really did not really see him lolly-gag down the court very often; his defense was great, arguably the best in the team.
We also have to keep in mind what the roles of the coach and staff are. One can argue that it is developing players, particularly the ones that will stay longer since developing players translate in players moving up to the next level and new players wanting to come to KU and âbe developed.â You can also argue that the primary role of the coach is to field the best possible squad that will win as many games as possible.
If Coach Self. or any other major/elite program coach for that matter, hypothetically sends a couple of players to the NBA every year but fails to consistently win 20+ games per year or win a conference title or make it to the NCAAâŚhow long to do you think he keeps his position? I would think not long. For the sake of discussion I wrote hypothetically, because chances are that a coach that sends that many players to the NBA would win consistently.
So the question isâŚshould a coach be more concerned about winning games (and making money for the program) and thus ensuring his own job security at he risk of not fully developing players or should he develop players at the risk of not winning as many games (generates less money) and risking his own job security? I do understand that the answer is somewhere in between, kind of the âchicken and the eggâ quandary, but for the purpose of this discussion and if it comes to it (yes, a far fetched scenario)âŚwhich should take priority?
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Man, BEAUTIFUL discussion, guys, sorry that Iâve been away!
@HighEliteMajor Completely agree about no need to Cliff-bash. Merely a frosh struggling to assimilate Self-ball, then complicated by off-court factors. Man, oh man, I often think he could very well have turned the corner (like Oubre did in Dec.), and become a âreliableâ 12/8 guy by the time March came. To âiceâ him out for that final 5-6 weeks, as KU AD was forced to do due to the NCAA investigation, simply robbed us of the chance to see him blossom potentially, and robbed him of the chance to show the scouts what he could do when comfortableâŚwhich is pretty much what Oubre was able TO do. It must not be forgotten by KU fans, that these kids who could go anywhere, choose to come and toil under Billâs upperclassmen-friendly system. We want to pass/fail some kid, but what classroom is he sitting in? And whatâs his personal effort?
@wissoxfan83 Perfect comment about Graham âdoing more for this teamâ and also about caring âless about pro potentialâ. It is all about KU for us. Honestly, while I think Svi is a special talent, and truly would be starting at most places, I also think that he also would be a quick exit to the pros the very next season after he puts up versatile numbers. He is so young, and can do so much. A natural gift almost it seems, for the game. But my deepest thought on him is that if he can help KU this season achieve something, great, because he is likely gone after this season. His pro-potential is already obvious, and he STILL has 3-4 more years before he grows into a manâs bodyâŚSvi Mikhailiuk is the definition of pro-scout salivation over potential, especially from that Euro-versatile âmoldâ. Devonte Graham? Well, he is nothing more than an absolute cross between all the best parts of Aaron Miles, Russell Robinson, Mario Chalmers. And he shot a 40% trey as a FROSH. The perfect college combo guard, Bill Selfâs old concept strikes againâŚwhy? Because Self cant help himself: his talent-eyes keep getting drawn to the same qualities. Mason IS Sherron2.0, and that, my fellow Hawks, is all good.
Regarding the discussion of Lucas and Traylor. They will be spot players. Self will use them to get better players some minutes of rest. I do think both are plateaued. I held out hope that Traylorâs athleticism and desire/work would have created a late 2nd round type of talent, and he may yet still do thatâŚbut now, as a 5th yr Sr, heâs going to have to surprise is with another level of improvement, especially after being one of our worst players in the WUG (hope is was just the flu?). Lucas is a bit more of an enigma: he has had some opps, he does have some moves (but heâs no Ellis), but his production is very inconsistent. Sometimes the 6â10 dude ends a game with ZERO points, how does that happen. There are bizarre-point-blank put-back misses. He is a Sr, who plays like a frosh or soph. The enigmatic question: does more mpg allow him to get more comfortable? His is a case of slow feet and underwhelming hops. If he was in the MVC, heâs good enough to be a 10/10 guy or maybe even a 12/10 guy, but against lesser competition. He could have helped a program like WSU, for example. I liked his fiery competitiveness with 350 lb Josh Smith of Gâtown, wouldnât back down from him, despite it getting physical. I still hold out hope he turns the corner. On the flip side, weâve never seen Lucas run down on the primary or secondary break and just pull up for a 15 foot jumper, like weâve already seen Bragg do.
We realize after watching years of kids come thru, that the more a kid comes in with, the more we can expect from them. So in a general sense, all those discussions @HighEliteMajor had about recruiting ranking, etc,âŚis strongly (& rightly) based on that âframeworkâ. You cant teach hops and vertical and quickness and 40yd dash times (yes, this all applies to football also, which is where my attn. has beenâŚ). If a kid has some skillz, he can only get better, most of the time. Of course, we all cheer for the Darnell Jacksons and Sasha Kauns as Bill Self success stories, as we should. But some guys will plateau, eventhough I personally wish it is never any of our KU jrâs and srâsâŚ
RCJH.
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âSo the question isâŚshould a coach be more concerned about winning games (and making money for the program) and thus ensuring his own job security at he risk of not fully developing players or should he develop players at the risk of not winning as many games (generates less money) and risking his own job security? I do understand that the answer is somewhere in between, kind of the âchicken and the eggâ quandary, but for the purpose of this discussion and if it comes to it (yes, a far fetched scenario)âŚwhich should take priority?â
Interesting perspective. Iâve never really seen it as this comparison, but maybe there is something to it. I know if the two choices do create a situation like this, coaches will all pick winning games and raising money for their schools.
BTW: Iâm thinking Self has raised more money for our AD than any other past or present coach wearing a Jayhawk. Anyone have the numbers?
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@Lulufulu said:
Mason PG, Devonte SG/PG, Selden SF, Perry PF, Hunter C
yes.
Diallo? Diallo has already peaked in what he will contribute this season.
Bragg could play some, but will be highly limited until late this season.
Traylor and Lucas will emerge as âthe committeeâ when Hunter goes down with the inevitable broken nose, or eye socket that new bigs that try to mix it up get, unless they are built like TRob.
Traylor I believe will set a new low for rebounding on a points per minute played basis. @HighEliteMajor will infarct twice about Traylorâs rebounding, but recover and be critically sound and strong down the stretch.
Brannen Greene will struggle all season, or be a med red.
Svi and Wayne are the great unknownsâthe black matter at the center of the Milky Way galaxy.
Wayne will get tweaked twice this season. If the tweaks come late, we are screwed. Any other time and we are gold.
Svi? Defensively Svi will improve to the point that he can guard guys whoâs shoulders are at the same height as his shoulders, but will be constantly burned by 6-8 guys with shorter necks (that was for @HighEliteMajor).
Svi offensively? Very tough to anticipate. Usually when a shooter puts on as much weight as Svi appears to have added it is because the coaches decided that he really will never be a great shooter; that he will, like Travis Releford, have to learn to play an old manâs game and maybe have one great shooting season, while gluing at a high level. On the other hand, Svi was soooooooo young last season that this just may be ordinary filling out and his gun will finally find the range.
Jerrance will fool everyone by doing something vital and then landing a good recruit when everyone has given up on him. But he will not lose weight and so KUAD will have to by him a specially made carbon fiber chair for the bench.
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@Statmachine said:
I saw a pic of Devonte, and he is going to be VERY tough this season with the muscle mass he has put on.
He looks like a Russell Robinson in the makingâgetting a little barrel chested up top as he ages. Devonte has the baby face that masks heâs actually a tough nut. Not sure if his outside shooting will come around or not. If it comes around, he will be very tough to keep off the floor this season, even for Svi.
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Regarding Cliff, in the rear view mirror the forensic hypothesis appears this way:
Cliffâs mom hypothetically took the loan and someone that lost out on recruiting Cliff ratted them out to the NCAA.
This information hypothetically got back to Self somehow even before the season started, probably through some process of attorney client privilege, which let Self maintain plausible deniability.
Jerrance reputedly had a bad habit and a cop caught him and Jerrance hypothetically told his lawyer to tell Selfâs lawyer, so Selfâs lawyer could hypothetically tell Self and Self once again hypothetically had plausible deniability.
Self hypothetically figured the chances were 50-50 that Cliff would eventually have to NOT play any more.
Self hypothetically did a straddle. He played him some, enough to develop him some, but not so much that a gaping hole would result if/when he had to stop playing him permanently for the loan. He had to come up with the diversion of Cliff having trouble adjusting to D1 speeds.
Next, Self hypothetically waited on Jerrance having to appear in court. The idea was to see if the appearance slipped by without any media picking it up. In the interim, Self hypothetically had to hold Jerrance out of recruiting almost the entire season to be sure that whomever ratted out Cliffâs mom didnât get wind of this cannabis bust and use it against Jerranceâs recruiting. So: Jerrance hypothetically became a non entity as a recruiter much of last season to make sure they didnât lose any recruits to parents pissed off that their kid had been being recruited by a pot head, should the story break, which Self probably reasoned it likely would.
When the pot story broke, Self hypothetically acted surprised, because attorney client privilege communications hypothetically enabled him to.
He hypothetically gave Jerrance some swift discipline of a tiny order, then hypothetically low profiled him and continued to keep him away from recruits until this episode receded.
Cliffâs story surfaced. Cliff was hypothetically distanced from his mother, but Cliff was also hypothetically distanced from his team.
Cliff was hypothetically eased into the background then off the court, then off the team, but it hypothetically was carefully spun to make Cliff not the problem, so that Self and the team looked like victims of his motherâs behavior, which in a sense they were.
Self hypothetically left no door open for Cliff to return and Cliff quickly departed.
Self took Jerrance to Korea hypothetically to make sure the pot issue was not used on any of his recruiters this past summer.
All in all the two live wires of Cliffâs momâs loan and Jerranceâs cannabis bust were hypothetically never allowed to arc from Cliff to Jerrance and likely into hypothetically more sensitive areas.
The whole thing was hypothetically thus diffused deftly.
The hypothetical cost was Cliff didnât get to turn KU into a dominant team it would have been if Cliff had been able to play 35 minutes down the stretch. Cliff was good, just not great. He would have been a helluva a lot better than an injured Traylor and an injured Lucas down the stretch; that much we can be sure.
The other hypothetical cost was KU lost out on what Jerrance could have recruited last season and that cost bled into this one, because he had hypothetically to be hidden in Korea this summer, too. In this hypothesis, it is hard to say if Jerrance will cool off enough to become the good recruiter he was reputed to be before he got to KU. It appears Self is trying to see if he can be cooled off, while also laying the ground work for Aaron Miles taking over if Jerrance cannot be cooled.
One more piece of the hypothesis. The intensity and conflictedness of Shoe Wars probably made Self have to be extremely cautious in bringing Jerrance back into recruiting. Last season, was the first season of hyper stacking. Both sides had to be looking for a new bat they could swing at the other. Self probably had to take extra special care to make sure Jerrance was not turned into that bat.
All hypothetical of course.
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@jaybate-1.0 I love it! Your use of hypotheticals in what it âallowedâ Self to say publicly after the FactsâŚmakes me think of all sorts of scenarios which John Calipari somehow found himself, going all the way back to UMass days. Whoâs to say Self didnât do this âstraddleâ (perfect conceptual descriptor here), ala his LONGTIME contemporary Calipari? What if Calipari has used such âstraddlesâ before? Hypothetically speaking, that isâŚ
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@jaybate-1.0 Devonte Graham shot 40% trey as a frosh, which is better than frosh Mario, better than frosh Sherron, WAY better than frosh Frankamp 25% (who supposedly was the 2nd coming of Ray Allen, Christ, and the Great White Hope, all rolled into a 160lb stick figureâŚ). Graham plays a lot because of his US Marine tested and approved leadership skills. He plays because he is quick. As a frosh he had better handles than Tyshawn Taylor his first 2 years.
Grahamâs trey gun better than Sviâs last year, but Svi was 17, and Graham after his prep school year was 19. Which is why we see Graham filling out physically. He could have been a Junior, but that prep school year only makes him a soph. We are tremendously lucky! Graham is an absolute stud, but if Svi is a lot better, they do not play the same position, and both are versatile enough to play different positions and share the court anytime Self chooses.
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Mason: our obvious weapon. Our sledgehammer. Shot over 50% treys for most of the season, only cooling off in our last 3-4 games. Self wanted a tough-ass guard to replace Naadir, look no further.
Graham: Our secret weapon. Across-the-board-good in every category. Add him to the mix, and he makes everything better. A force-multiplier, because he opens up possibilities, and is remarkably good at creating his own possibilities. Mario Chalmers-good. Enuff said, mark my words. Graham even makes Mason more lethal, which is exactly the concept Im trying to get across.
Selden: Simply put, a DWade-clone when his game is on. Letâs hope the consistency corner is turned in his jr season. Its time to show the scouts, Wayne! We want you to go lotto.
Svi: Scouts drool. A 17yr old kid that can play with the big boys. Literally. An enviable feel for the game. 3-4yrs away from his final manâs body. He could easily go lotto one day.
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This is a difficult comment to write, as I hold our past Jayhawks in high esteem, and will have ultimate respect for their time spent at KU, battling for our colors, especially the guys who stayed to be upperclassmen.
So, excuse me, but I saw frosh Graham doing things consistently as a frosh, that we simply did not see frosh RussRob, Tyshawn, Elijah, Selby, or any other guard not named Mason or SherronâŚdo as a frosh. I mean, seriously, we were hoping and praying for our frosh nonMickeyD guard (Graham) to come back as fast as possible from his toe injury. When have we waited on a frosh like that, other than the unfulfilled hope we put on Embiid?
Think about it for a minute. A nonMickey D level guard as a frosh, in Bill Selfâs system no less. But he shined. Frank needed help, and Devonte was there when he healed up. Problem is, he and Mason needed help against WSUâŚ
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@drgnslayr said:
âSo the question isâŚshould a coach be more concerned about winning games (and making money for the program) and thus ensuring his own job security at he risk of not fully developing players or should he develop players at the risk of not winning as many games (generates less money) and risking his own job security? I do understand that the answer is somewhere in between, kind of the âchicken and the eggâ quandary, but for the purpose of this discussion and if it comes to it (yes, a far fetched scenario)âŚwhich should take priority?â
I think the question really lies on the recruiting side of the equation. Calislimebag is the best recruiter in the nation and everyone knows it. This is a huge part of HCBS job and KU spends more on recruiting than any other school so how does this effect his job if he keeps striking out on recruiting? If he doesnât play the presumed OAD (Cliff, Selby) and HCBS experiences a recruiting back lash like our present day dilemma ie not one recruit for next season. Then what? Every recruit thatâs over 6â10" that HCBS is recruiting knows we have a huge hole with Mickelson, Diallo, Traylor, and Ellis departing so WHY IN THE HECK DO WE NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE RECRUIT? Because of Cliff ALEXANDERS CURRENT SUTUATION! All the other coaches recruiting against KU are telling these kids they will go undrafted if they sign with KU. If your kid was in that situation and could potentially go to KU, not start, not get 30 plus minutes, and go from possibly making 2 million or more to going undrafted with no guaranteed contract. Why on Gods green earth would you sign with KU when you can go to UK, UNC, or Duke? They are all in on these 5 star kids and HCBS is not even trying to make a move on a 4 star guy. If he would go in and make some of these quality 4 star guys a priority you would think he would have at least one big for next season already in hand. I think he would rather coach OADâs than develop players! I think he believes he can compete with the squid and the rat? Until he proves otherwise I just donât think he can do it coaching at KU? KU will continue to land 1-2 high quality players each year and scramble to fill in the gaps during the summer for eternity all the while UT lands a hand full of 4 star guys each year and develops into a team that can dethrone KUâŚ
The End
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This year KU got lucky with Vick reclassifying to the 2015 class after making a strong showing on his AAU team in April, and Diallo signing late. KU could have very easily had a one man recruiting class. Cliffs is one of the NBA drafts biggest flops of all time, it was very public, and extremely damaging to KUâs recruiting efforts for this years class.
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I really donât know how Self recruits.
My gut tells me he pushes away some lower players in hopes of landing higher ranked players. Iâm pretty sure all coaches do that.
I just donât believe our recruiting issues for bigs relate to Cliff. We are a blue blood program so we catch the ear of all the top recruits⌠so we can explain our success with bigs and we surely donât let someone like slimebag put a label on us that sticks.
Look back 12 months ago and who did we get early? We landed Carlton and I think that was it.
For whatever reason, we just donât seem to nail many early recruits. While we are all busy studying why our players donât perform to their best in March, we should be looking at why we canât land recruits until the very very end.
Imagine if we didnât land Cheick? Landing him sort of glosses over our recruiting last year. We bombed on just about all the talent.
Iâm pretty sure we were in a slump a few years ago because Self was just too honest with recruits. He didnât promise them PT at all and said they would have to fight it out for their minutes. That seemed to get us into a recruiting drought. Then things changed⌠the big change came when we missed on (of all players) Tarc⌠losing him to Arizona. That devastated Self and he promised to recruit differently from that point forward. He did make strides and we landed several good players.
But that was then⌠what about now? What does it take in 2015 to recruit the best? I think we need to ask ourselves that question every single year because the rules change that often. Maybe we need someone like Drake to come in and sing a special recruiting song (or whatever). Gosh⌠you would think our luxury apartment digs would be a big help⌠I think it may turn out to be a total waste of capital.
All I can see is that I really hate the entire OAD situation. None of it is healthy for anyone. And the quality of college basketball these days is frigginâ horrific. Hardly worth watching. Talent is gone, even before it develops. Just an âideaâ that a guy will some day be good is enough to toss him into the draft and pray that some NBA sucker bites the bait.
Half the players that sign up early for the draft canât even dribble a ball to half court without dribbling it off their leg. Itâs all sickening.
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Late night should be like super bowl halftime and a scrimmage if you ask me? Late night would be a total success if we blew our entire recruiting budget on it!
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KU is only one Rihanna wardrobe malfunction away from signing ALL of the remaining 5 star guys in the 2016 class!
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We still would have landed players, but to get the caliber of Vick & Diallo was fortunate. We did cast our net pretty far this off-season for anyone and anything.
And the way this year is going, there is definitely a scenario where we whiff on all the talent again and are left getting our 25th and 40th optionsâŚ
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Jesseâs Inside the Play - How KU basketball gets a 3.5% edge:
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@ralster Frack, Devonteâs handles are better than TTâs his whole entire collegiate career.
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@ralster said:
Mason: our obvious weapon. Our sledgehammer. Shot over 50% treys for most of the season, only cooling off in our last 3-4 games. Self wanted a tough-ass guard to replace Naadir, look no further.
Graham: Our secret weapon. Across-the-board-good in every category. Add him to the mix, and he makes everything better. A force-multiplier, because he opens up possibilities, and is remarkably good at creating his own possibilities. Mario Chalmers-good. Enuff said, mark my words. Graham even makes Mason more lethal, which is exactly the concept Im trying to get across.
Selden: Simply put, a DWade-clone when his game is on. Letâs hope the consistency corner is turned in his jr season. Its time to show the scouts, Wayne! We want you to go lotto.
Svi: Scouts drool. A 17yr old kid that can play with the big boys. Literally. An enviable feel for the game. 3-4yrs away from his final manâs body. He could easily go lotto one day.
This all gets me psyched for whats to come this season!!
Mason is absolutely Sherron 2.0. Been saying it since last season, he just had to grow into it better to show everyone that I was right
Devonte, Selden and Svi are also gonna be studs for us this year, I can feel it. If ESPN does a piece on the best backcourts this season. KU may not make their top 5. Ohhhh boy that is not even close to being right.
