Okay Charlie Brown, hit it!
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@Statmachine that’s all well and good but all reports are that he is NOT going to graduate. Also the first day of the summer session is June 9 with a course completion date of Aug. 21. If he is going to play in the WUG which lasts through July 14 he would have to complete whatever courses he needs and then get recruited to play somewhere else. This also assumes that all he needs for credits can be completed in 5 weeks of study. The team that wants him would also have to be ok with him not participating in any summer work at that school.
Let’s get real. Unless Hunter decides to give up basketball or go to a D2 school there is no other option.
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it would depend on how many credit he needs to graduate. if he need a course or two, he could easily fit that in the Summer session, play for KU in the WUG, graduate and then transfer elsewhere. I am sure Coach Self with the contact he has could easily find a school for him and I am sure they would be lots of schools interested in a big man that can contribute immediately.
Frankly, I have not seen any reports that indicate how close (or far) he is from graduation; perhaps you have a soucre with this information?
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I realize this is all speculation and with good will, but I am a bit uncomfortable with all these posts about who can we get rid of to take Chukwu.
Coleby is the new Mickelson: will we jettison him in two years?
I’m not telling anyone what to post or not post. I am simply taking position with those who want to take good care of our current players.
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I am with you 100%. I would be surprised, shocked actually, if Coach Self release any of the seniors to be (or any other player) without allowing them to graduate.
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@JayHawkFanToo Self did the exact same thing last season to Tharpe. And miraculously, we signed Graham the next day. I’m sure you will somehow try to differentiate these seniors to be from that senior to be. But your post was agreeing with @ParisHawk, who was “taking (the) position with those who want to take good care of our current players.” He expressed discomfort with the discussion on players being forced out.
You agreed “100%” saying you’d be “surprised, shocked actually, if Coach Self release any of the seniors to be (or any other player) without allowing them to graduate.”
Huh? I guess last spring’s purge just didn’t happen.
Self had no problem showing Tharpe the door on May 1, 2014. What is interesting with Tharpe is that he wasn’t shown the door until that better option became available (Graham). Same with Andrew White on May 8, 2014. He didn’t get the pink slip until that better option was there and available (Svi). Both players were released by Self “without allowing them to graduate.”
Self opened scholarships last season when better options were available. And with that, he had zero conscience in doing so. Tharpe went nowhere. I’m sure it was devastating to his life. With White, he was considered a stellar young man and by all accounts loved Kansas. Regardless of all of that, both were coldly discarded for players that Self preferred.
That all this discussion is about. It’s the only reason it is occurring (the discussion). If Self had not done this before, we wouldn’t consider it an option. No one should be “shocked.”
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@HighEliteMajor What Self did is fact. “Zero conscience” and “coldly” are your interpretations.
White was “allowed to graduate”, just not at KU. In other words, he was not simply discarded but put in a position to transfer while keeping a scholarship and all his years of eligibility.
Tharpe was dismissed from the team for disciplinary reasons. Yes, it did free up a scholarship at just the right time.
If someone like Greene transfers, that would be like White.
If Mickelson graduates and transfers, that would be like Tarik Black.
I don’t believe Self at KU has ever caused a player to leave and lose a year of eligibility, except for Tharpe. If he does that for Chukwu, I will be disappointed.
I believe he has asked a player to give up his scholarship for a year - I won’t name him out of respect for you…
Anyone - not just Chukwu - could go without a scholarship next year and KU would be legal.
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I don’t remember specific problems White had off court but Tharpe self destructed with that selfie that went viral. Once gone he did have two chances to land somewhere-one college and one pro team if memory serves, but I don’t know where that ended. IMHO Tharpe is responsible for his dismissal, not Self. As I said earlier, I can’t remember what was going on with White.
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@ParisHawk I’m not understanding what your trying to differentiate there on one point. White was forced out. And you say “White was allowed to graduate, just not at KU.” I don’t get it. All of the kids that might be forced out could graduate somewhere else.
But I get your point. You are saying that Traylor and Mickelson would be stuck – they couldn’t go anywhere else, D-1, and play. I agree. That is a difference. And with Lucas, he would lose a year of eligibility to sit, and then play his final season (since he’s redshirted. That was not the case with Tharpe or White.
Even with Tharpe, Self didn’t cause him lose a year of eligibility as you mentioned. Tharpe had not redshirted. He could have sat and then played 2015-16 with a new school.
I don’t disagree there.
My only real point was that Self has forced guys out before for players he preferred. Different circumstances here, but no one should be shocked if it happens again. It’s just where the line is drawn. We don’t know where Self draws the line yet. This may give us some guidance going forward.
On having someone give up their scholarship, you said you “won’t name him out of respect for you …” – what do you mean?
@JayhawkRock78 - You said “Tharpe self destructed.” I’m curious what you are talking about. One selfie that slipped out? That’s self destructed? Tharpe had other issues that were distinctly related to his impact on the court. Self made the right decision changing horses there.
You also referenced that you could not recall the “specific problems White had off court” – there were none. The kid was a model student-athlete, and from all I’ve heard a very nice, well grounded young man. There were no suspensions or any hint of issues as I recall.
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@HighEliteMajor Obviously I don’t know all the details. But they way I remember it Tharpe had been in the dog house before. Then he created a scandal with a partial perhaps full nude photo of a married woman licking him as he took the shot. What amature program is cool with that? I’ve seen guys kicked off ku athletic teams for less than that albiet 40 years ago.
With AW3 I don’t remember anything-just as I said. I don’t know if he left on his own or Self showed him the door.
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Well, there is “forced out,” and then there is “nudged out.” To wit, Giddens, Giles, Adams more or less got the nudge (if not the BOOT). Several players have opted to depart because of disappointing playing time or coming to terms with their skills not quite fitting adaptedly into SelfBall…starting with David Padget, I suppose.
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@JayhawkRock78 On White, he said that Self visited with him and told him his playing time was in doubt. That’s a very subtle way to let a kid like White (to 50ish player, and a junior to be) know the door is over there.
A few years ago I did a mock conversation here between Self a player he might want to leave exactly along those lines. It would seem quite easy for a coach to create a circumstance for a player, albeit being very helpful and appearing to be acting in the kid’s best interests, that make him staying untenable. Telling a kid he won’t play heads the list.
On Tharpe, yes, there were incidents of pouting, but no suspensions I can recall (e.g., Traylor and Greene). Look, Tharpe was forced out (my speculation here) because he wasn’t a good leader, because his overall presence was a detriment, and because of on-court issues. I’m sure the selfie baggage played a role too. But it was likely just a portion of the reasons.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
@ParisHawk I’m not understanding what your trying to differentiate there on one point. White was forced out. And you say “White was allowed to graduate, just not at KU.” I don’t get it. All of the kids that might be forced out could graduate somewhere else.
Yes, but not on an athletic scholarship.
But I get your point. You are saying that Traylor and Mickelson would be stuck – they couldn’t go anywhere else, D-1, and play. I agree.
So no scholarship - and because of that, probably no graduation.
We don’t know where Self draws the line yet.
I would hope he draws the line at making someone lose a year of eligibility - in which case no Lucas, Mickelson or Traylor.
On having someone give up their scholarship, you said you “won’t name him out of respect for you …” – what do you mean?
Just a little joke: it was Brady
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You cannot possibly say that Tharpe was a typical Junior/Senior-to-be. He had several disciplinary issues that warranted his outright dismissal from the team and they simply took the diplomatic route of saying that he wanted to get closer to his ill daughter, a move made so not to poison the well, if you will, with other potential schools/destinations. If you read @ralster comments from the BBall camp and if I recall correctly, HC Self pretty much said that much. The only other senior that I can recall leaving the team was Mulaye Niang who was injured and no longer able to play and he was made an student assistant and not sent packing.
I am sure you know that most if not all schools require that a student completes at least half of the credit in residence at that school in order to get a degree; a junior that transfer to another school would have to be at that school at least 2 years in order to get a degree…otherwise, everybody would transfer to Harvard or MIT or CalTech for their senior year and get a degree from there.
So much for that,
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m curious, what were Tharpe’s disciplinary issues. I know the selfie. I know the pouting thing. Did I overlook something with him? You said “several disciplinary issues” – maybe that’s it. Personally, that’s enough for me.
Regarding the diplomatic route, we called b.s. on the cover story the day he transferred. No doubt it was a cover story to aid Tharpe. No disagreement there.
@ParisHawk Brady, Brady, Brady … inexorably linked to my complaining. Got the humor there. Thanks for the follow up.
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You mentioned some of the issues and don’t forget that he was also suspended the first game of the season for playing an unauthorized game in the off-season while visiting Jamari in Chicago (Jamari himself did not play in that game); no other player at KU had done this before or since, so it appears to be a well known rule. The selfie alone warranted dismissal IMHO.
Other than Tharpe, were you able to find any other senior to be that was “driven” from the program before his last year? I really don’t think it is in Coach Self’s nature to do something like this and other than Tharpes’s justified “dismissal” I see no precedent.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t recall anyone other than Tharpe. But then again, I wasn’t looking. Did you think I was?
Self ran Tharpe because Graham was a better option. I think the circumstances support that.
Miraculously and amazingly, the decision on Tharpe came on May 1. Then, the next day, Devonte Graham signs. Graham said afterward, logically, that Tharpe leaving influenced his decision to sign.
It is in Self’s nature to run off a player before he’s a senior, as we’ve seen. That’s cool. We all concede that.
But it’s not in Self’s nature (according to you) to do it when the kid is heading into his senior season, but for the one “precedent” that is Tharpe, who you say is “justified”, and doing so the day before a prized recruit puts his name on the dotted line saying that Tharpe’s departure aided his decision?
Drawing arbitrary lines of distinction in an effort to defend Self’s character here.
Does anyone really think that Tharpe gets run if we don’t have a second ball-handler (Graham) in the bag? No way.
With all that in mind, I support Self’s decision on Tharpe. I just don’t try to rationalize Self as being of such high moral character that he wouldn’t run a kid before his senior year. Self just did what he had to do for Kansas basketball. It’s an ugly business. He gets in the sewer like the other coaches.
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I like how @REHawk worded it… with a distinction between “forced out” and “nudged out.”
College basketball is insanely competitive. Self has to maintain the goal to always put the best team on the floor at all times. I’m not going to say “at any cost” but I would go so far as to say “at a high cost.” Sometimes existing players statuses change from “being a vital link” to “being in the way.” It is the nature of the game.
Nice guys do finish last. When Self can afford to be nice, he will be nice. When it is crunch time and he has to make a decision for what he considers to be best for the team, he’ll remain the good guy or become the bad guy or anything in between. He has a job to do, and his job isn’t to be social director.
Hey… you can’t convince me that almost any of our players could not become almost irreplaceable if they did nothing but eat, breath and sh*t basketball. If I was a friggin’ walk-on I would still spend every night in the gym working on my personal development apart from team practice.
When I see a kid shooting FTs in the 60% I already question his commitment. On occasion you have situations that may not be preventable. Wilt on the FT line is the example I am thinking of. He may have had an issue with his depth perception. If a kid can’t hit a FT then you don’t want him in the game down the stretch. If you don’t trust his game down the stretch then he may find himself replaced.
Concerning Tharpe… it is hard to say what was the complete picture concerning him. If he was dumb enough to be a part of the selfie, he surely was capable of other negative events and/or just having the wrong attitude for Kansas basketball. I wouldn’t have pulled that stunt even if I was a walk-on.
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@HighEliteMajor There is one big difference between Tharpe and Traylor and Mickelson.
Naadir Tharpe had not been redshirted yet and had the option of going to another school and coincidentally he was seriously looking at Providence before going to the D-League. The part of this equation that you’re either unaware or neglecting is that Jamari Traylor and Hunter Mickelson have already redshirted (Jamari in 2011-2012 and Hunter in 2013-14) and wouldn’t have that option to stay at a D1 school. This is why Traylor and Mickelson are not transfer options and Bill Self would look like a major a-hole if he forced either to transfer.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You said – "There is one big difference between Tharpe and Traylor and Mickelson. Naadir Tharpe had not been redshirted yet and had the option of going to another school … "
Yea, I know that.
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Again, the difference in this issue is that you don’t feel Self is an individual of “high moral character” and I do, and I suspect the majority of posters in this forum would agree with me on this issue…but then, you don’t believe Self is good coach either so at least you are consistent.
The part that you are not considering is that if he runs a student to another school before his senior year, that student would have to stay at that school at least 2 years to earn enough in-residence credits to graduate. If coach Self or any other coach does that, he would not only likely ruin the athletic part but more importantly, it would extend that individual academic stay by one year before he can get his degree. Frankly I don’t see Self, or any other coach for that matter, doing this without a justification beyond making room. As I mentioned before, when Niang was injured before his senior year and he could not play, he was given an student-assistant position to allow him to stay and complete his degree. I am sure you can find example somewhere but I cannot think of single player that was run from any program just before his senior year, without cause, and just to make room for a better player; it would highly unethical and extremely unfair to the player. Maybe you can cite some examples of seniors-to-be that were run from programs without cause.
Do you honestly believe that Tharpe was called out of the blue and told that he was being dismissed from the program? I would thing that he was given ample warning and then given a way to save face. If you recall, when it was announced, Tharpe indicated that he had already been in touch with other schools including UMass about transferring there.
FYI and as per KU Offcial Athletic web site, the team had 15 players on the roster last season and 4, Self, Manning, Pollard and Garret were considered walk-on, which means only 11 scholarships were hard- commits, including late signinings Graham and Svi, so Tharpe was not dismissed just to make room for Graham, in fact, 2 of the scholarships were given to walk-ons. So much for your theory…
I find it cynical, although not necessarily surprising given your stated dislike, that you would think so little of Coach Self to imply he would stoop to that. Oh well, to each his own. We are obviously 180 degrees apart on this issue so no sense in discussing it any further; I will not change my mind and I suspect you will not either.
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@JayHawkFanToo First, you have zero credibility on anything regarding Self. You are not objective. You have admitted before that you “will never second guess” coach Self. That limits your ability to objectively critique – which you refuse to do.
Second, I do think Self is of good moral character. Just my impression. I do know some issues regarding his personal life that have flowed to me from reliable folks, but flaws that many folks of good character have. My point was that you work awfully hard, all the time, to defend the guy, no matter what. On the recruiting, you have to get in the sewer. That’s part of the job description. You just want to paint an arbitrary line of acceptability, which is comical.
Third, and this is more laughable … you point out the scholarship stuff as if it means something. You do this regularly. You think certain things have meaning when they don’t. This is about ball handling. Not scholarships available. Tharpe was our second ball handler. He wasn’t going anywhere if we didn’t have a viable option. Tharpe admitted later that he was forced out (Self’s decision). The timing didn’t have to do with scholarships available, the timing had to do with Graham – who would not have come if Tharpe would have still been here. Competition. Graham said that was a consideration.
Nice try Cubby.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 You said – "There is one big difference between Tharpe and Traylor and Mickelson. Naadir Tharpe had not been redshirted yet and had the option of going to another school … "
Yea, I know that.
You’re smarter than this HEM. You know it would be a terrible PR move for Bill Self and Kansas basketball to remove a player from the roster for non disciplinary reasons that would end their D1 college basketball career a year early. Bill Self will not remove a would be redshirt senior for non disciplinary issues because it will negatively impact his ability to recruit 4 year players. I know I wouldn’t want to attend a school where I could get booted from the team with no other D1 option just because a potentially better player is interested in transferring in.
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First, I stated before that I would not second guess Coach Self when it comes to coaching basketball. Why would I second guess one one the more successful college basketball coaches ever in matters of basketball, when in the words of one Robert Montgomery Knight, he has probably forgotten more about basketball that I will ever know? After all this is what he does for a living…and he does it superbly…and for me is not even a hobby. Unlike you, I am not arrogant and vain enough to think that I know more than he does and I am better qualified than he is.
Again, There were several issues that warranted Tharpe to be dismissed from the team for cause and pretty much everybody in this forum agreed at the time that it was the right thing to do…are you actually suggesting that he should have kept Tharpe on the team, despite all the issues and continue to be cancer on the team? Apparently you are because the real reason does not fit your narrative and gives you an opportunity to question Coach Self’s character. So transparent and predictable.
Your “go to” line is to accuse posters, particularly yours truly, of having zero credibility and not being objective…isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? At least I have the integrity to say that I like and trust Coach Self; you, on the other hand, profess to like and respect Coach Self while constantly criticizing every coaching decision he makes. I might not be unbiased but at least I am not a hypocrite.
Nice try but no cigar…you should really try this site and come back when they stop laughing.
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@JayHawkFanToo The reason you would second guess Self is because Self might just be wrong. He’s been wrong many, many times. He’s human. His decisions aren’t automatically correct. You just don’t want to talk about. And you attack folks that challenge his decisions and want to talk about it. Part of the purpose here is to do just that – to talk basketball, and to do so on more than a superficial level. Simply because you critique, discuss, postulate and challenge decisions doesn’t mean you think you’re smarter at the trade than the person you are discussing. I think most folks understand that you can criticize and critique someone, while still liking and respecting them.
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@ParisHawk Why not? Why couldn’t Chukwu get a student loan for a year then go on scholarship & after playing hi lo ball for 3 years then easily payoff the loan while playing pro ball? Where there’s a will there’s a way. How could we think that Bill wants this footer & he NOT play pro ball somewhere after playing CBB for KU, or Izzo, or many other good D 1 Coaches? I can’t believe these caliber of programs are just grasping at straws over this kid. JMO
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On a much lighter note I am really excited about practice tomorrow! I wonder if the media will be covering it tomorrow?
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@globaljaybird said:
@ParisHawk Why not? Why couldn’t Chukwu get a student loan for a year then go on scholarship & after playing hi lo ball for 3 years then easily payoff the loan while playing pro ball?
Why not what? Are you sure you didn’t mean to reply to someone else?
If you are replying to me, please quote me so I can understand the context.
All I have ever said is, the rules don’t say Chukwu has to pay his own way, the rules say maximum 13 scholarships. Self could “nudge” someone out, get Chukwu to pay his own way, or get someone else to pay his own way.
I don’t see anyone who could be “nudged” without losing a year of eligibility, which Self has not made anyone do yet. As far as someone else giving up his scholarship, I have no idea who that could be but others have mentioned possibilities.
As far as Chukwu walking on next year, I have absolutely no objection.
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@ParisHawk This is the phrase the reply was about:
“Anyone - not just Chukwu - could go without a scholarship next year and KU would be legal.”
Maybe now I make some sense in my reply. Sorry about the confusion. I don’t see why anyone at all needs to give up their scholarship for this kid. He is the one that will be the beneficiary of playing for HCBS & if he truly wants to sacrifice & get better & to pro ball, then maybe he should be more open to compromise than someone who has already been in the trenches for KU. JMO
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You snooze you lose…Chucky Cheese waited too long and Coach Self signed Colby Cheese instead. Good life lesson for him that sometimes you need to strike when the iron is hot and if you wait too long someone else will take the spot you thought you had.
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@globaljaybird I agree. I never advocated someone else giving up his scholarship for Chukwu. I just mentioned it as a possibility. It makes as much sense as chasing someone off the team, which I like even less.
