Another Super Bowl Loss...
-
@drgnslayr “Self isn’t a Jawhawk” Are you serious??? I’m in complete agreement with HEM that Self’s coaching philosophy and his Fools Gold comments have hurt us since the TT game, and he deserves a hefty share of the blame for our current problems, but “he’s an outsider” and “can he really relate to what Kansas basketball is all about?” Are you SERIOUS??? I’m just kidding you, but maybe you should double up on your blood pressure medicine or something.
-
That’s right. Self didn’t play at Kansas. He played at OSU. And that is why we will usually lose at OSU.
Just like Roy. No one wanted to admit it about Roy when he was our coach… but Roy was (and is) a Tar Heel, not a Jayhawk.
Both of these coaches are great coaches.
The difference is both small and huge. I don’t mean it as a slam. Bill and Roy both worked their butts off for Kansas and were and are important parts of what has gotten us where we are today.
Look at our football. Bowen was able to motivate our guys. Bowen is a legacy Jayhawk. There will always be a difference. Legacy coaches have an advantage in the motivation department.
I’m not saying we need to ditch Self. I’m just saying this is part of the reason he can’t motivate our guys that last inch… the inch that matters most.
Roy figured it out. Roy went home… and he did what he could never do at Kansas… win a NC… twice! Why? it was the same Roy Williams that coached at Kansas. But he could project better as a legacy coach at UNC.
-
@drgnslayr to bad you didn’t see the 60th reunion w/the last 4 coaches. I couldn’t put into words how they feel about AFH. If coach Self wasn’t a true Jayhawk he’d be at osu.
-
All I’m saying is it would be a huge advantage to us if Self was a legacy coach. I’m 100% sure of that. It ALWAYS is!
At a certain point… talent will only get you so far. Sure… if you are a Kentucky and you suck in 3 7-footers and 9 McDs AAs… you might be able to win it all with just brute force and skill. That’s what it takes when you don’t have the magic. Magic comes easier from legacy coaches. They can relate back to their playing days in the same gym. They can relate to their players some of the legacy motivation given to them by their coaches at the same school.
Self can’t do that. He wasn’t here. And if you listen to him today, he relates stories most about Okie ball. Why? Because that is what built him, not Jayhawk ball!
Roy could coach Jayhawk basketball 1000 years and he still wouldn’t have a NC!
-
@drgnslayr well I disagree!
-
@drgnslayr Then I guess it’s a good thing we played Memphis for the NC, and not Okie State, huh? I’ve been reading your stuff for several years now, and I have to say, I think your opinions are sound even if I don’t necessarily agree with every word. However, in this instance I’m going to have to go with Crimsonorblue22 and say 'Well, I disagree!" “Legacy” is just a word that makes for a good story in the newspaper. Bob Knight wasn’t from Indiana, and John Wooden wasn’t from California, but they certainly gave their teams the magic and motivation that you refer to. Self may not get us to the Promised Land as often as we’d like, but IMHO he bleeds the same crimson and blue as every poster on this board-whether he’s from Oklahoma or Timbuktu.
-
@drgnslayr Self also always referrers to that one year under Larry Brown.
Self has made a ton of mistakes. But to think Self isn’t a Jayhawk is crazy. So Wooden is really a Boilermaker and not a Bruin? Or Dean Smith is actually a Jayhawk and not a Tar heel?
I honestly believe that Self hates the loss worse than we do. It’s his hard work and late nights, his players that he recruited and cares about, his job and security. Again, Self has been far from perfect. But to think that KU loses games because he didn’t go to college there 30 years ago might be a bit absurd.
-
@oldhwkfan Took the words right out of my mouth! Didn’t see you posted!
-
I’ve already been down this road before.
I said the same true statement about Roy when Dean Smith left Carolina. Everyone slammed me because I said Roy would change his words and go home. Then people flipped the other way and slammed Roy for going home. Sorry… but if you can’t get what I’m saying, you’ll be in line at the lynching of Self when he leaves Kansas. All you people defending Bill as a Jayhawk will be the same people slamming him when he leaves.
I’m not saying Self is going to OSU.
All I’m saying is the FACT that Self went to school at OSU… and I wish he had gone to school at KU, so he could relate more motivational stories to his troops.
Is that wrong? Am I wrong for saying that? NO WAY! I’d bet my life on it. Anyone else think he wouldn’t do any better as a motivational coach at Kansas if he had gone to Kansas?
This thread is about Kansas lacking enough motivation… not about Self and his allegiance.
Coaches don’t have to be legacies in order to be a good coach at a school. Self is great at Kansas. All I’m saying is he would be a better coach for us if he had gone to Kansas. Now I"m being attacked because you are all thinking the wrong thing.
PLEASE, PLEASE… EVERYONE PUT YOUR JAYHAWK EMOTIONS AWAY FOR ONE FRIGGIN’ SECOND! SELF WENT TO OSU, LOOK IT UP ON WIKI.
-
I have to join the other posters and respectfully but strongly disagree with you. Coach Self might have played ball at OSU but don’t forget he got his coaching start at KU as an assistant to Larry Brown. With the exception of Duke, UK and maybe UNC and Louisville, I cannot think of a program that would not love to have Coach Self; in fact, if he wanted to go to OSU, they would dump Travis Ford in heartbeat and probably double his salary…and yet he stays at KU. We know that he has had feelers from NBA teams where he would likely earn a lot more money…and yet he stays at KU.
Coach Self is as big or bigger Jayhawk than any of us. He has taken KU to a true elite level and is on his way to becoming KU’s most successful coach and I believe that he will stay at KU until he retires.
-
I dont know about any of this. But what really pisses me off is that they need more motivation at all. This is Kansas. That should be all the motivation any player ever needs. THE END
-
I WILL BE THE ONE GUY IN HERE DEFENDING SELF WHEN HE LEAVES. THE ONE GUY! BEEN THERE, DONE THAT WITH ROY. I WAS THE ONE GUY LEFT SUPPORTING ROY. BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD THE REALITY, NOT THE DELUSION.
-
“I dont know about any of this. But what really pisses me off is that they need more motivation at all. This is Kansas. That should be all the motivation any player ever needs. THE END”
I agree… so why isn’t it reality?! It isn’t reality because they are not truly indoctrinated into the Jayhawk Kingdom. Our guys need to be coached up as much on our history and legacy as they are on the court. Just my humble opinion. Maybe kids today care about nothing. Or maybe they are just waiting to care about the right thing!
It isn’t enough just to attend Kansas. No one should ever out hustle us on the court. Period. And when they do, our guys aren’t getting it.
That is part of the reason why I believed it helped to have Danny as an assistant. He has more stories to share from his days as a Jayhawk.
Is this really that hard to comprehend?
Anyone in here saying Self isn’t a Cowboy? Want to place a little wager? If Self had to choose and could only be ONE… a Cowboy or a Jayhawk… and it didn’t effect his paycheck or lifestyle… anyone want to bet what he would pick?
I’m not trying to make this into something it isn’t. Self is 100% on board at Kansas… but you all are delusional and have him placed as some kind of Jayhawk God. Enough with the delusion. Enough of the thinking that we just have to show up at games and claim the trophy. That delusion isn’t going to bring home trophies. Reality will be a good start. Self doesn’t have playing stories at Kansas from his playing days. He wasn’t here in 200 BC fighting Druids with swords.
And he can’t relate enough valid material to indoctrinate any of his players into being real lifelong Jayhawks. That isn’t his fault. Maybe his parents for growing him 400 miles south!
I think a nice way to bridge this weakness is to punt one of our assistants and bring someone like Sherron Collins on board. He might not be able to recruit… but I bet he could quickly become a real motivational asset!
-
Slayer, I don’t know what you posted 13 years ago when Williams left so I cannot comment on that; however, comparing Self and Williams is like comparing apples and oranges. Williams attended UNC, was an assistant there and was groomed by KU alum Dean Smith to be his successor and other than KU he has not coached anywhere else. All the Jayhawks fans I know knew that Coach Williams was “on loan” form UNC and it became even more apparent after Williams became very successful at KU and showed he could lead a big program. I never blamed coach Williams for leaving, since I knew it was bound to happen, although I have a problem on how the move went through, and for this I blame Dean Smith.
Coach Self attended OSU but got his coaching start at KU under Larry Brown. He was then an Assistant at OSU but was not given the opportunity to be HC so he went to Oral Roberts, Tulsa and Illinois before KU where he got his real big break. Keep in mind that programs like Missouri passed on him and hired Quin Snyder instead. I believe Coach Self remembers this and he is now a loyal and lifetime Jayhawk; if he wanted to leave, he could have done it many time over the last few years but I am convinced he will stay a long time and retire with a number of records, both at KU and nationally.
-
Here is one more advantage ISU has over us. The Mayor played at ISU!
Believe it or not, he can communicate his experiences back from his playing days to his players.
Anyone want to guess what he is conveying? RIght… how the goal was ALWAYS about beating Kansas! He never won a Big 8 title either! Mr. Basketball in the State of Iowa couldn’t win them a title!
Is it any wonder that he is able to relate to his players well and get them motivated to beat us?
If we can’t conquer our delusion… we are bound to fall.
-
The point I am making is about motivation.
Everyone is on a delusional defense of Self. I’m not attacking Self.
I’m relating the FACT that he did not play ball at Kansas. He can’t pull stories out of his hat to motivate the troops and relate it to Kansas… except maybe a bit under Brown.
But sometimes it takes punching people in the gut to shake them from their delusion.
PEPSI CHALLENGE:
“Anyone in here saying Self isn’t a Cowboy? Want to place a little wager? If Self had to choose and could only be ONE… a Cowboy or a Jayhawk… and it didn’t effect his paycheck or lifestyle… anyone want to bet what he would pick?”
-
PEPSI CHALLENGE:
“Anyone in here saying Self isn’t a Cowboy? Want to place a little wager? If Self had to choose and could only be ONE… a Cowboy or a Jayhawk… and it didn’t effect his paycheck or lifestyle… anyone want to bet what he would pick?”
I will take that bet any day of the week and twice on Sunday. If Coach Self wanted to go back to OSU he could have done any time in the past. If after the Tournament Coach Self hints he is interested in going to OSU, they would dump Travis Ford faster than a vacuum-aided toilet can flush a small turd and up his salary by at least 50%, and I would not be surprised if T-Boone doubles his salary. So in answer to your challenge, coach Self is in all likelihood making less at KU that he would at OSU…so this leaves the lifestyle part and the test will be when Tyler graduates, right?
What do you want to wager? A public retraction in this forum would be good enough for me…but we can go higher…
-
@drgnslayr “The point I’m making is about motivation. Everyone is on a delusional defense of Self”
In my original response to you, I stated I agreed with HEM that Self’s coaching has hurt us since the TT game, so I’m not defending his coaching. What I disagree with you about is motivation and legacy. I’m not a research guy so I don’t know the answer to this question, but I would ask- “How many coaches who have won the NC went to the schools they coached?” I doubt that there have been that many, but those who won and didn’t go to that school apparently were able to motivate their players well enough to win. He doesn’t have to pull stories out of his hat about KU to motivate his players. That only wins games in the movies…“let’s win one for the Gippper.” Sure motivation is important, but so is strategy and in-game adjusting, and a host of other factors.
I’m just saying Self has his faults, but being from Oklahoma is not one of them. And as far as Self choosing to be a Cowboy or a Jayhawk, if my failing memory serves me correctly, Okie State and T Boone Pickens made a strong offer to Self after KU won the NC to get him to come back to OSU, and Self said, “Thanks, but no thanks. I’m happy being a Jayhawk now.”
-
@drgnslayr I always follow your post, and I have always enjoyed your analysis and being levelheaded. But you are making some pretty bold statements.
I know you want to focus on motivation, but as you can tell, these boards have a life of their own!
You say we are being delusional self defenders and to take away our “Jayhawk emotion”. But you seem to still be steamed about last nights game. You even said “we are doomed”.
I am actually under the current belief that we are on borrowed time with Self before he heads to the NBA. There would be no bashing on Self for him doing that from me.
Your emotions are running so high that you believe caps will get your point across. We are all aware that Self went to OSU, but to say Self’s players are suffering because of where he went to college 30 years ago is simply not true. You could point out many mistakes Self has made to why his players aren’t “motivated” or playing at a high enough level. None of which include him being a Cowboy at heart. There will always be a special place in Self’s heart for OSU obviously, but come one. We are not doomed, Self is a true Jayhawk, and we are in a great position.
I wonder if you were saying this claims in 08 and 2012? I might have my “Jayhawk emotions” going, but I believe you have your “pissed about the last couple years” emotions coming out in full force.
-
@drgnslayr could you possibly be suffering from postpartum depression? Jk I’m trying not to make fun of you, I am trying to picture Hoiberg gathered around transfers telling them about old ISU memories. I can’t do it!
-
I’m not going to win this argument.
So I"ve contacted Wiki to change their story about Self.
He did play at Kansas.
-
“You even said “we are doomed”.”
We’ve been living under the delusional KU cloud for years. We don’t feel like we have to be prepared for March. I can’t even get anyone in here to understand what a chip is.
We are on the Calipari plan… 100%. And I’ll project we need 10 McDs AA before we win our next NC!
Attitude makes a big difference in basketball. Anyone think we had the better attitude yesterday? Really?
-
@drgnslayr Sorry but you can’t caterogize all of us under what you suppose we are as fans.
-
Slayer, I believe you are making our point. You say that he should hire someone like Sherron that has played here 4 years and has lived the KU experience. Coach Self has been at KU what? 13 years? Don’t you think that he would have a lot more stories to tell after 13 years of 24/7 KU basketball than Sherron would after 4 years as a student/player? I certainly think so.
Quick question that someone already asked…how many coaches that won the NCAA title as coaches played at that school?
BTW, and FWIW I did accept your challenge…
-
@drgnslayr This team is too young and too injured to make it further than the first or second game this season.
-
“I can’t even get anyone in here to understand what a chip is.”
Yikes. I hope this isn’t an slight to the intelligence of other posters on this board. If so, you are better than that.
-
The trick is to hire and retain the best guy available. Part of that could be being a legacy, like Danny, but hiring the ultimate legacy in Dick Harp guarantied no success.
FWIW, Forest Allen was from CMSU, if I recall correctly.
And Eddie could not getter done at OSU.
We lucked out gigantic with Self.
He just keeps getting better and he is in a tight spot not having a b2b 5, or a rim protector the same year someone apparently decided to 9-10 stack Nike programs and assign them 1 seeds outside their regions apparently to maximize their likelihood of keeping adidas programs out of the FF.
Regarding Roy, he could never have won a ring at KU, because he promised to recruit the wrong half of the country. Using the recruits of someone recruiting the whole country, plus himself recruiting the whole country, he quickly won two rings as he would have at KU.
Self WILL leave KU sooner or later, by retirement, or for a new challenge–nothing odd about that. Same with a legacy.
It would be nice to see a legacy, but not if he were not the best candidate.
-
This is my last post on this subject.
All I can say is I hope the Kansas coaching staff is smart enough to bring in someone who can explain the pain of 66-65 because none of our coaches were Kansas players or fans when we took one in the head at the Battle of New Orleans.
It matters to real Jayhawks. Either you grew up with that or you didn’t. Self didn’t. You want to know why I"m barking up this tree… does it make sense now?
There is plenty to build motivation for this game if it comes to be and I bet we aren’t even clued in on it.
I bet WSU will play all the old tapes and dig up plenty of old skeletons to make sure their troops are ready.
I will never forgive Self if he doesn’t prepare “balls to the wall” for this game. No excuses allowed. F@%# guys being hurt.
-
@drgnslayr That is an aspect of Self’s coaching that I have long wondered about. What methods does he employ to motivate and inspire his team? That is definitely a question that I would like answered.
-
@drgnslayr I’m not terribly interested in an argument but what you’re saying is that if your ancestors didn’t live in Lawrence at the time of Quantrill’s raid then you can’t really understand how Kansas feels about Missouri.
One question. Did someone have to start or play a lot or simply be a walk on as a Jayhawk to understand what it’s like to be a real Jayhawk? Does the next coach have to have eaten a Joe’s doughnut?
If a future coach has to grow up a KU fan or be a KU player then things look bleak down the road since the demographics aren’t really that good.
-
@drgnslayr I’m ready for Mark Turgeon whenever Bill decides to retire or move on.
-
@drgnslayr Great thread and posts! Just have to disagree on one point–Roy would have eventually won a ring at Kansas. But it would’ve taken about 30 years, just like it did for Dean at North Carolina. But I guess that pretty much backs up your point anyway.
-
@drgnslayr said:
All I’m saying is the FACT that Self went to school at OSU… and I wish he had gone to school at KU, so he could relate more motivational stories to his troops.
I disagree too, not with the FACT that Self went to OSU and that you wish he’d gone to KU, but with the ASSUMPTION that it would necessarily make him a better motivator. Like a bunch of Bill’s stories of his heroics from the glory days of short shorts is going to motivate these young guys? Hell, have Greg Gurley give them that kind of pep talk before each game then.
-
I don’t think Self needed to be a KU alum to motivate his guys. Most of the players that come to KU are not native Kansans. They rarely grow up around the rivalries and stories about KU’s history. That’s just the facts of being a strong basketball program in a state that doesn’t produce a lot of elite basketball talent.
As a result, KU rarely gets any players that are lifelong KU fans. Of the scholarship guys, I would say only Perry is a lifelong fan. But that doesn’t keep those guys from working hard.
Think about some of the great KU players of the last 15-20 years. Probably only Wayne Simien was a lifelong KU fan. Brandon Rush wasn’t. It’s doubtful that Mario Chalmers was. Collison, Hinrich, Miles, Gooden, Robinson, Morris twins… the list goes on - and probably none of them were KU fans like most of us are. We are dependent on transplants because there just isn’t enough elite talent within our borders to keep us at the top. In that way, maybe Self doesn’t understand the history of being a KU lifer, but maybe he relates better to the players since most of them are not lifers, either.
As for whether the Big XII title game was ISU’s Super Bowl, I honestly don’t think so. Iowa State has designs on a Final Four. Under Hoiberg they have risen to being one of the better teams in the country, and I think they are looking at things as a way of getting to the Final Four. I think they knew a win could move them up a seed line, or improve their position among the 3’s. I think that, more than anything else, was motivation to them - a chance to move up in their quest to get to the Final Four.
-
Two life time KU fans that came to play for KU, Conner Frankamp and Zach Peters did not work out well…on the other hand, the pair from Iowa, Collison and Hinrich worked out great.
-
@drgnslayr Hi slayer, Sorry I’m late to the discussion on this one. It’s a great to experience both sides of the coin. Champs that are the ones to beat vs nobodies that make themselves champs. I’ve been in both camps too. They are both great, but for me being a nobody team that wins it all is just a tad sweeter.
As for Self, I think he has been a Jayhawk more than a Cowboy for a long time.
I think the players are motivated as well, but I don’t know that ALL of them see these match-ups with a burning desire to beat our foes the way our foes have a burning desire to knock us off our perch.
-
I know I said I wouldn’t post again in here… sorry about that!
This entire thread was brought about from my fear after we were smashed by ISU in the second half.
My mind went directly to a WSU-KU match up. I knew this game was going to be set up.
I immediately panicked. Not because we may not have the right team to win. I feel we do have the right team. But I was blindsided by our collapse in that second half. I thought we were done with collapses.
WSU plays tough, disciplined ball. If we have one of our episodes in this game, we’ll not only lose, but potentially get blown out.
I simply can’t accept that!
I can tell you right now. If that happens, I’m going to rip Self a new backside! There is no excuse for having 4 McDs AAs and getting blown out by a bunch of juco players. ISU was the wake up call for me. It can happen.
If we get blown out our players better do more than limp off that court! They better be hauled off in a hearse!
-
@drgnslayr “ISU was the wake up call for me. It can happen.”
You were probably in denial for most of the season. I think my wake up call happened at the Temple game.
-
Probably so… but what got me this weekend was the thought that we could take a nationally-viewed beating from the Shockers! I never had that thought after the Kentucky game, or Temple game.
-
Well good thing Gregg Marshall didn’t play ball at WSU!!!
-
He already has enlisted Antoine Carr, The “X-man” and several other past greats to help inspire his troops.
It wouldn’t surprise me if he digs up Mike Jones, too. God… I can still remember that shot as he faded back into the bench!
Lutz didn’t waste any time:
At least he nailed one paragraph:
“The last time WSU and KU met in the regular season, though – back on Jan. 6, 1993 – Kansas won 103-54 in Allen Fieldhouse. As far as I know, there are no T-shirts commemorating that game.”
-
As I have said before, you must have been fun to play with.
P.S.: And you ARE absolutely right about the need for us to Savage the Shockers!!! Injuries or no injuries. Two go in. One comes out.
-
@drgnslayr think I posted that
-
I am thinking of a movie. “Two men enter, one man leaves…”
-
Thanks 22. Since I quoted “man” I think you took that as I meant it as in competition period. I have a boy and a girl competing in high school at a very competitive level here in Texas. It is nice that her teams get pretty much equal coverage.
Anyway RCJH.
-
@JayhawkRock78 So, Omaha will be the Thunder Dome?! Tina Turner singing the National Anthem - or RCJH?!
-
@DCHawker Actually Omaha is one of many-but I just hope KU travels well. Those ISU folks stormed KC. KU can expect the same of WSU fans.
As far as Thunderdome one thing I liked as a Track and Field athlete. We both know our best marks to date, and we squared off for that day.
Time and distance (or height). Mano E Mano. Here is my best- beat it or lose. No referees - time or distance rules.
-
Self is a Jayhawk!
I felt the need to share my adrenaline!
Thanks diehards!
You guys rock!
Guess I’m not bad as a motivator!
-
#Seven teams that can win the NCAA tournament and two that can’t
By Jeff Eisenberg
10 hours ago
The Dagger
Since we’re talking about ISU and KU here, guess which team Mr Eisenberg thinks can win it all and which one can’t ?
-
@nuleafjhawk With all these media things talking us down, if I am on the team, i will bust my everything to see UK at the E8!
