How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide
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The wage gap is an interesting stat but a lot of people like to skip over the fact that Asian American males have the highest pay rates of anyone in the country. They are 21% higher than white males. Which tells me race has less to do with it, I highly doubt people that hate African Americans like Asians. But Asians also go to college at a higher rate that any other ethnicity in this country. I work for a small business with 15 employees, 2 of which are African Americans. They make the same amount as the other guys who do the same job. I’m sure there are some racist fools that don’t pay minorities as well and there should be a penalty for doing so. We have to keep African American kids in school and make school affordable again. This is the main reason I cringe when people talk about the government getting involved. What have they touched that hasn’t turned to crap? College is high dollar because of the government. Remember when the government started subsidizing housing? The cost of housing sky rocketed. I believe in eduction and healthcare for all, I just believe the government is the worse place to get it.
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@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
The wage gap is an interesting stat but a lot of people like to skip over the fact that Asian American males have the highest pay rates of anyone in the country. They are 21% higher than white males. Which tells me race has less to do with it, I highly doubt people that hate African Americans like Asians. But Asians also go to college at a higher rate that any other ethnicity in this country. I work for a small business with 15 employees, 2 of which are African Americans. They make the same amount as the other guys who do the same job. I’m sure there are some racist fools that don’t pay minorities as well and there should be a penalty for doing so. We have to keep African American kids in school and make school affordable again. This is the main reason I cringe when people talk about the government getting involved. What have they touched that hasn’t turned to crap? College is high dollar because of the government. Remember when the government started subsidizing housing? The cost of housing sky rocketed. I believe in eduction and healthcare for all, I just believe the government is the worse place to get it.
I have experienced the wage gap myself. I once took a job with a negotiable salary. Another person (a white male) was hired for the same position and started a week before I did. He had about a year more experience than me, which should be worth between 3% and 5%. He was paid more than 15% more than me (I did not know his salary at the time).
To top it off, I tried to negotiate my salary. I asked for a salary that would have been about 8% less than this individual, based on what the market rate should have been, basically hitting the number right in the middle. I was told that the organization could not go any higher than the number that was 15% less.
Once I found out how much more he was making, I left that position.
But here’s the thing. Because I was underpaid in that position, my negotiating position was worse when I negotiated my next salary. So even though I got a raise on my next move, I probably lost 5% salary per year due to getting underpaid on that job. That’s thousands of dollars lost in income for me personally.
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@justanotherfan Ya, that’s frustrating and I don’t blame you for being upset. I’m not insinuating that it doesn’t happen. I’m saying statically less African Americans have an education. Comparing someone’s income with a degree compared to someone who doesn’t would be accurate or a level playing field. You should’ve sued the bastards.
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@kjayhawks Studies exist showing just the numbers you are talking about. Statistically Blacks with degrees make less than whites with the same degree. Same thing for education and income. Black children from higher income don’t perform as well on standardized tests as whites with the same income.
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This is worth a watch in its entirety. Possibly some of the smartest black thinkers we have. I believe all but maybe Kmele considers themselves left of center liberals. I met Thomas at a talk last year at UNC and he’s very smart and engaging. Great bio too.
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@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@justanotherfan Ya, that’s frustrating and I don’t blame you for being upset. I’m not insinuating that it doesn’t happen. I’m saying statically less African Americans have an education. Comparing someone’s income with a degree compared to someone who doesn’t would be accurate or a level playing field. You should’ve sued the bastards.
One thing to consider is the issue of equal pay. Education is a cost-benefit analysis. You get more education and in turn can make more money. But if I pay the same amount for my education as a white peer, but am offered 10%-15% (often an even greater difference) less, my education is now de-valued, making more achievement and education less valuable to me because I won’t see the return on investment (ROI).
Add to that the fact that lending institutions have historically charged minorities higher rates of interest and the problem intensifies. I am going to pay more for my education through higher interest rates, but get paid less in the professional world.
That means my ROI calculation goes down for each step up the ladder I take. As a HS graduate from a public school, I have spent very little, so my ROI is high, even if my actual earnings are not. An associates from a local juco isn’t very expensive, so again, the ROI curve is favorable. But as you move into the professional ranks, the curve is less and less favorable even though the salaries are increasing.
Education is supposed to be an equalizer in society, but if that education does not open the same doors for me, I end up further behind due to the debt incurred. African American college graduates are much more likely to go into default on student loans. That is directly related to the pay gap.
Again, this is really about systemic issues.
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If I am paid less, then I have a less favorable negotiating position when seeking new employment.
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If I am charged higher interest rates, I will have to pay more for my education.
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If I am paid less relative to my education, my ROI is lower.
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If my ROI is lower, my risk of default is higher, which further hurts my credit and pushes me into a cycle of high debt/credit problems.
That risk means that the most high achieving minorities are actually at a disadvantage compared to other minorities because our earning potential is hamstrung by higher debt and interest.
Those issues make it harder to build equity through the purchase of assets and building savings, which means that my higher earning, less in debt peers broaden the wealth gap daily.
Statistics bear all of this out. More education alone doesn’t solve the problem if the rewards for that education do not follow.
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@justanotherfan Don’t forget inherited wealth.
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@benshawks08 inheritance is a completely different subject. I went to a 2A school that had a small number of minorities. The richest kid there was a African American that drove a brand new Range Rover to school. I inherited nothing from my dad and will be struck with my moms funeral costs.
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@kjayhawks for individuals yes, but not systematically.
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@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
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@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
Bruh didn’t you read Robin DiAngelo? That’s just your white fragility talking smh. Either agree you’re a racist or deny it in which case you’re both a racist and fragile.
Of course I’m being slightly facetious except for that’s the entire premise of the #3 best seller on the NYT nonfiction list. Oh, and don’t say you’re not a racist because that means you’re 100% a racist according to the author of the #2 nonfiction book on the Times’s best seller list.
With that level of infection of this mind virus it’s no wonder we all end up talking past each other.
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@FarmerJayhawk haha maybe @benshawks08 triggered me a bit. My point is we are getting nowhere assuming all whites have money or are rednecks. The same way it’s not getting us anywhere if you assume minorities are lazy and criminals. My family came from Ireland with nothing in the late 1880s.
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@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk haha maybe @benshawks08 triggered me a bit. My point is we are getting nowhere assuming all whites have money or are rednecks. The same way it’s not getting us anywhere if you assume minorities are lazy and criminals. My family came from Ireland with nothing in the late 1880s.
Haha just messing around! But I get that. Mine were Germans who came over around the same time. My great great great grandpa is buried just a few miles from where I grew up in rural Smith Co. We had some hard times so it does irk me some when labeled as privileged. Seems a better approach is looking at individual circumstance.
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@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
I don’t assume any of those things. That doesn’t negate the fact that the black people were stripped of their rights to earn for generations making inherited wealth (or the lack there of) part of the wealth gap that is a fact. Yes there are black people that make more money and have larger inheritances than white people but that does not invalidate the negative impacts of slavery still impacting descendants of slaves to this day.
The systematic effects of racism often break down when looking at the individual level because racism doesn’t target individuals. It targets groups. So to see it you often have to look at group data rather than individual experiences.
Poverty sucks and I would never imply that life is easy for those struggling to make ends meet. Know my goal is never to strip anyone of their humanity (including white people) and like everyone else I’m not perfect at achieving that goal all the time.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
Bruh didn’t you read Robin DiAngelo? That’s just your white fragility talking smh. Either agree you’re a racist or deny it in which case you’re both a racist and fragile.
Of course I’m being slightly facetious except for that’s the entire premise of the #3 best seller on the NYT nonfiction list. Oh, and don’t say you’re not a racist because that means you’re 100% a racist according to the author of the #2 nonfiction book on the Times’s best seller list.
With that level of infection of this mind virus it’s no wonder we all end up talking past each other.
Currently on chapter 8 of Kendi’s book and I just am not getting the same things out of it that you are. To me so far the point of the book is that no person is either racist or not racist. In the book so far I don’t think Kendi has labeled any person a Racist and your “facetious” post is a complete mischaracterization of the book and it’s author. Maybe I’m in for a big twist at the end? But I’d be surprised if Kendi spends the entire first half of the book delving into the complexity of racism in its many forms in the US and even more globally just to arrive at the simplistic stance you attribute to him.
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Interesting read about the persecution of Irish and German immigrants in the early United States.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/white-u-s-immigration-policy
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@justanotherfan Your part about the PPP loan isn’t really true. I was able to secure 4 different PPP loans for 4 different entities all using local banks. All it took was picking the phone up and making contact with them, and when I didn’t hear back I was persistent and stayed on top of it until I did.
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@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
Bruh didn’t you read Robin DiAngelo? That’s just your white fragility talking smh. Either agree you’re a racist or deny it in which case you’re both a racist and fragile.
Of course I’m being slightly facetious except for that’s the entire premise of the #3 best seller on the NYT nonfiction list. Oh, and don’t say you’re not a racist because that means you’re 100% a racist according to the author of the #2 nonfiction book on the Times’s best seller list.
With that level of infection of this mind virus it’s no wonder we all end up talking past each other.
Currently on chapter 8 of Kendi’s book and I just am not getting the same things out of it that you are. To me so far the point of the book is that no person is either racist or not racist. In the book so far I don’t think Kendi has labeled any person a Racist and your “facetious” post is a complete mischaracterization of the book and it’s author. Maybe I’m in for a big twist at the end? But I’d be surprised if Kendi spends the entire first half of the book delving into the complexity of racism in its many forms in the US and even more globally just to arrive at the simplistic stance you attribute to him.
I mean he literally says capitalism is a racist system and being not racist is basically the same as being a racist, “The claim of “not racist” neutrality is a mask for racism.”
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@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
Bruh didn’t you read Robin DiAngelo? That’s just your white fragility talking smh. Either agree you’re a racist or deny it in which case you’re both a racist and fragile.
Of course I’m being slightly facetious except for that’s the entire premise of the #3 best seller on the NYT nonfiction list. Oh, and don’t say you’re not a racist because that means you’re 100% a racist according to the author of the #2 nonfiction book on the Times’s best seller list.
With that level of infection of this mind virus it’s no wonder we all end up talking past each other.
Currently on chapter 8 of Kendi’s book and I just am not getting the same things out of it that you are. To me so far the point of the book is that no person is either racist or not racist. In the book so far I don’t think Kendi has labeled any person a Racist and your “facetious” post is a complete mischaracterization of the book and it’s author. Maybe I’m in for a big twist at the end? But I’d be surprised if Kendi spends the entire first half of the book delving into the complexity of racism in its many forms in the US and even more globally just to arrive at the simplistic stance you attribute to him.
I mean he literally says capitalism is a racist system and being not racist is basically the same as being a racist, “The claim of “not racist” neutrality is a mask for racism.”
And if you read that whole page, he says that in the greater context of how Donald Trump and white supremacists, like Richard Spencer claim to be “not racist” which they are doing to mask to mask their racism. And so for clarity, anti-racist is a better term for people who are against racism. He does this while acknowledging his own racist ideologies he has had to confront and continues to uncover.
As for the capitalism point, does capitalism in its current form in the United States lead to equitable outcomes when looking at large groups? Does the current system benefit people of different races the same? I’m genuinely curious to know what you think the answers to those questions are.
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@Woodrow And the company my partner works for was unable to get a loan because the bank they work with didn’t have any access to that money the first time around. They eventually got the loan the second time around.
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@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@Woodrow And the company my partner works for was unable to get a loan because the bank they work with didn’t have any access to that money the first time around. They eventually got the loan the second time around.
Not sure what your point is. I am just saying I got 4 different loans from 4 different local banks the first time around. @justanotherfan was saying how only national banks were getting those loans and that is not even remotely close to the truth.
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@Woodrow said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@Woodrow And the company my partner works for was unable to get a loan because the bank they work with didn’t have any access to that money the first time around. They eventually got the loan the second time around.
Not sure what your point is. I am just saying I got 4 different loans from 4 different local banks the first time around. @justanotherfan was saying how only national banks were getting those loans and that is not even remotely close to the truth.
My statement on PPP was “And the banks that had the processes to handle the loans on the first day the money was available were primarily the large, national banks.”
I added the emphasis, but the statement remains. I didn’t say only. I said primarily, because that is where most of the money went. I’m glad you were able to get those loans through, and hope they helped your business(es).
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@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@kjayhawks said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@benshawks08 I just don’t like racism of any kind. it’s racist to assume because of the color my skin I haven’t had to work to get what little I have- signed a food stamp, no hot water, sometimes no water, no phone, no a/c, goodwill shopping if it wasn’t hand me down guy that spent plenty of his youth in the inner cities that’s white.
Bruh didn’t you read Robin DiAngelo? That’s just your white fragility talking smh. Either agree you’re a racist or deny it in which case you’re both a racist and fragile.
Of course I’m being slightly facetious except for that’s the entire premise of the #3 best seller on the NYT nonfiction list. Oh, and don’t say you’re not a racist because that means you’re 100% a racist according to the author of the #2 nonfiction book on the Times’s best seller list.
With that level of infection of this mind virus it’s no wonder we all end up talking past each other.
Currently on chapter 8 of Kendi’s book and I just am not getting the same things out of it that you are. To me so far the point of the book is that no person is either racist or not racist. In the book so far I don’t think Kendi has labeled any person a Racist and your “facetious” post is a complete mischaracterization of the book and it’s author. Maybe I’m in for a big twist at the end? But I’d be surprised if Kendi spends the entire first half of the book delving into the complexity of racism in its many forms in the US and even more globally just to arrive at the simplistic stance you attribute to him.
I mean he literally says capitalism is a racist system and being not racist is basically the same as being a racist, “The claim of “not racist” neutrality is a mask for racism.”
And if you read that whole page, he says that in the greater context of how Donald Trump and white supremacists, like Richard Spencer claim to be “not racist” which they are doing to mask to mask their racism. And so for clarity, anti-racist is a better term for people who are against racism. He does this while acknowledging his own racist ideologies he has had to confront and continues to uncover.
As for the capitalism point, does capitalism in its current form in the United States lead to equitable outcomes when looking at large groups? Does the current system benefit people of different races the same? I’m genuinely curious to know what you think the answers to those questions are.
And if you just listen to what he says, he tells you what you need to know. “In the most simplest way, a not racist is a racist who is in denial, and an anti-racist is someone who is willing to admit the times in which they are being racist, and who is willing to recognize the inequities and the racial problems of our society, and who is willing to challenge those racial inequities by challenging policy. And so I’m saying this because literally slaveholders, slave traders, imagined that their ideas in our terms were not racist. They would say things like, “Black people are the cursed descendants of Ham, and they’re cursed forever into enslavement.” This isn’t, “I’m not racist.” This is, “God’s law.” They would say things, like, you know, “Based on science, based on ethnology, based on natural history, black people by nature are predisposed to slavery and servility. This is nature’s law. I’m not racist. I’m actually doing what nature said I’m supposed to be doing.” And so this construct of being not racist and denying one’s racism goes all the way back to the origins of this country.”
I’m not a racist. Full stop. Kendi can say what he wants about liberals like me who don’t agree with his characterizations and call us racist, but he’s just wrong.
It seems you’re conflating capitalism as a system and capitalism as practiced here. I would argue most of the inequities are a result of government failure, not the failure of capitalism. In some jurisdictions, you have to complete more hours of training to be an African hair braider than an EMT. Is that a market failure? Of course not. Was redlining a market failure? By definition, no. Was de jure segregation a market failure? Were transfer payments that created disincentives to form nuclear families a market failure? Obviously not. Going back to my first point, the market doesn’t discriminate, the majority of people in the country derive as much utility from discriminating based on race than the lost income from not treating everyone equally. There’s just no rational basis for racism in the market. If the state had done its job and lived up to the liberal ideals we espouse, I can’t promise perfect equality among the races (Asians probably would still whip our tails since we select immigrants based on merit in a lot of ways) but things would certainly be much, much better.
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@FarmerJayhawk “the market” is not some inanimate force. It is run by people. If people acted rationally that would be one thing. I think our current situation certainly would demonstrate the potential of human beings to act irrationally. In this country the market was established in concert with a government that valued some human beings at 3/5 of that of others. You can’t just say I’m conflating capitalism in this country with capitalism in general because that’s the whole point. You can pretend that there is some word where government and economics don’t intertwine and that in that world “the market” is unbiased but that is definitely not this world for all the reasons YOU provided and more. Kendi’s point is that racist policies have to be uncovered and changed otherwise racism will persist. Again, even though you post the whole quote it seems like you fail to take in the entirety of the message and instead prefer to object to a portion of the argument without acknowledging the argument as a whole.
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@benshawks08 said in How white Democrats poll on "Big Ideas" to fix racial divide:
@FarmerJayhawk “the market” is not some inanimate force. It is run by people. If people acted rationally that would be one thing. I think our current situation certainly would demonstrate the potential of human beings to act irrationally. In this country the market was established in concert with a government that valued some human beings at 3/5 of that of others. You can’t just say I’m conflating capitalism in this country with capitalism in general because that’s the whole point. You can pretend that there is some word where government and economics don’t intertwine and that in that world “the market” is unbiased but that is definitely not this world for all the reasons YOU provided and more. Kendi’s point is that racist policies have to be uncovered and changed otherwise racism will persist. Again, even though you post the whole quote it seems like you fail to take in the entirety of the message and instead prefer to object to a portion of the argument without acknowledging the argument as a whole.
It certainly has characteristics of an inanimate force, as Adam Smith described as “the invisible hand” and Hayek described as “spontaneous order.” Nothing came from on high, just people engaging in mutually beneficial transactions. You’re literally making my point. Government decided the 3/5 compromise. Government did these things, not the market. The market had no say in it, and doesn’t make sense from a market perspective since markets function much better with more producers and consumers. We know from the economics literature that in thick markets (many buyers and sellers of similar goods), discrimination doesn’t happen.
Capitalism as a system does not discriminate and is not racist, contrary to Kendi’s belief. Does the market cause inequality? Sure. Because people have different skills and preferences. I’m thrilled Jeff Bezos is a gazillionaire because I love his product. I buy more beef than most people because it’s what I like and can find it in abundance at a good price. Someone else likes chicken more. So that makes us both unequal and better off. Much better than waiting in a food line.
Government has a much worse record of discrimination than capitalism. Henry Ford was a raging anti-Semite but never refused to sell cars to Jews because money from Jews spends just as well as money from anyone else. And if a business owner wants to discriminate by not serving people because of an arbitrary characteristic, the market will punish her for it. If government wants to discriminate, it just will and there’s not a lot of recourse we have. See the entire institution of slavery. Everyone agrees slaves’ rights were being horrifically violated, but the state failed to do the one thing it absolutely has to do: protect people’s rights.
I have many more issues with Kendi than just his language. His policy solutions are totalitarian garbage. “The anti-racist amendment would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.” So I guess we’re trusting unelected people (I suppose Kendi means people like himself) without policy training to decide what policies are racist and what aren’t? Kendi himself considers a capital gains tax cut racist because benefits accrue unequally by race, since whites are more likely to own investments. Yet, the literature is clear in that capital gains tax cuts improve productivity, raise wages, and paradoxically increase revenue to the treasury. Want to rebuild a park using federal grant funding in a Latino neighborhood? Sorry, no can do. More benefits will accrue to Latinos than blacks. It would enshrine discrimination in the Constitution. I get he’s actually pro-discrimination in that blacks should be treated better than whites to make up for past injuries. But a superlegislature with veto power over all policy and policymakers? That gives me the willies.
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Has anyone seen the tweets by DeSean Jackson? Or Nick Cannon? Which was shared and supported by D wade. This is one of the major issues imo. If we don’t have accountability on both sides we will get nowhere. LeBron James was fine with the people of China being oppressed, he makes millions off of them. I’ve always been in support of freedoms in this country like Kaepernicks protests but forgive me if I don’t take you seriously while you’re wearing a Castro t-shirt.
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@kjayhawks Interesting last line. You should review the lyrics of “Revolution” by The Beatles!
