Last Dance
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oh ya, spending some time watching about the bulls and my boy Scottie - I REALLY liked Scottie Pippen. - I realize the show was about mike but still love me some Scottie
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Crazy to think that the Bulls really came close to winning a few more titles in the 90s. Obviously anything can happen with what ifs. But man if Pippen is healthy in the 1990 eastern conference finals, the Bulls win it and the title with ease against Portland. Then MJs dad getting murdered and him playing baseball for 18 months. A good Magic team knocked them out in the 95 eastern conference finals but people forget MJ didn’t come back til the middle of March of that season. I still think their 6 of 8 is the best dynasty in modern sports (Celtics won 11 of 15 and 8 in a row in the 50s and 60s). That’s before you consider they could’ve brought back most of the 98 team. I really miss the NBA from the 80s and 90s. Teams played defense and stars didn’t take off several games for rest. The mental and physical toughness of the game is light years ahead of the touch fouls and circus today.
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I think your note about rest suggests that the Bulls likely would not have necessarily won more titles if Jordan didn’t take that time off.
Let’s look at the two Eastern Conference dynasties that came before the Bulls, Boston and Detroit.
The Celtics went to four straight NBA finals from 1984-1987. In those seasons, Boston played 106, 102, 100, and 105 games, winning two titles (1984 and 1986). In 1987, they played 99 games, being ousted in the Eastern Conference Finals by the Pistons.
Detroit actually went to at least the Eastern Conference Finals every year from 1986-1991, including three trips to the NBA Finals. In those years, they played 97, 105, 99, 102 and 97 games.
In each case, the result was the same - the dynasty just got worn down. Guys got hurt (McHale), or just worn down. Detroit ousted the Celtics in six. Chicago swept the Pistons. They just didn’t have the gas for a fifth year at that rate.
Chicago had played 99, 98, 99, 104 and 101 games from 1989 through 1993 in making two ECFs and three straight Finals. Could Chicago have kept that up as Jordan and Pippen entered their 30s for another five seasons of nearly 100 games? That’s 10 straight years of 97 or more games to win titles from 1991-1998.
At some point, someone gets hurt. Someone leaves via free agency. A team gets hot while you go cold. A team figures you out. It happens to every dynasty.
The early 2000’s Lakers looked unstoppable, added Malone and Payton, then got derailed by Detroit in 2004. The Superteam Heat won two titles, but by 2014 they were running on fumes and Chris Bosh’s body was wearing out.
Even Golden State couldn’t keep it up for that long - injuries to basically everyone ended any chance they had against the Raptors.
My guess is that Chicago wins in 1994 to get a fourth straight title, but loses in either 1995 or 1996 to Houston, New York, Orlando or Seattle, and probably misses the Finals altogether in either 1997 or 1998 as Indiana, Orlando, and New York all pose serious challenges.
There’s a reality where Horace Grant stays in Chicago in 1995 rather than going to Orlando, meaning that instead of Dennis Rodman, the Bulls have an aging Horace Grant. Scottie Pippen sulks all summer, then demands a trade. Jordan carries the team, but someone gets hurt at the wrong time.
If I had to guess, the Bulls finish the 1990’s with five titles - 1991-1994 and either 1997 or 1998 and six or seven trips to the Finals.
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@justanotherfan You bring up some valid points and it’s really anyone’s guess what would’ve happened. Scottie was around thru 98 on that crappy contract and probably wouldnt have left MJ with how close they were. By the end of the first 3 peat, they had some key role players that stayed for the second like Kerr, Pippen and Paxson. Rodman wasn’t happy in SA, he would’ve came earlier if the opportunity was there. They may have won 4 or 5 and fizzled out or been bitten by the injury bug.
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On a side note, I’d pay money to see prime Rodman vs LeBron. I think Rodman would have him crying on the bench lol.
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@kjayhawks said in Last Dance:
Crazy to think that the Bulls really came close to winning a few more titles in the 90s. Obviously anything can happen with what ifs. But man if Pippen is healthy in the 1990 eastern conference finals, the Bulls win it and the title with ease against Portland. Then MJs dad getting murdered and him playing baseball for 18 months. A good Magic team knocked them out in the 95 eastern conference finals but people forget MJ didn’t come back til the middle of March of that season. I still think their 6 of 8 is the best dynasty in modern sports (Celtics won 11 of 15 and 8 in a row in the 50s and 60s). That’s before you consider they could’ve brought back most of the 98 team. I really miss the NBA from the 80s and 90s. Teams played defense and stars didn’t take off several games for rest. The mental and physical toughness of the game is light years ahead of the touch fouls and circus today.
Bulls weren’t winning any more titles even if Jordan never left. Rockets still would’ve won in '94 because Chicago never had an answer for Olajuwon and Houston had a great record against Chicago during that time because Chicago didn’t have an answer for Olajuwon. That’s why New York and Orlando were Chicago’s biggest challengers in the East in the early and mid 90’s. Ewing and Shaq were dominant big men and Shaq did beat Jordan in '95.
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@kjayhawks said in Last Dance:
On a side note, I’d pay money to see prime Rodman vs LeBron. I think Rodman would have him crying on the bench lol.
Rodman played at 210. I don’t think he could have pushed Lebron around at any point given Lebron came into the league at least 10 pounds heavier than that. I do think Rodman was a skilled enough defender early in his career to bother Lebron.
I would be more curious, though, to see what a prime Scottie Pippen could have done against Lebron. The match in athleticism would have been something to see.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Jordan didn’t have Rodman in 95 and he only played the last few months of the season after baseball went on strike. Orlando won the series 4-2 but 3 of those victories were by a combined 18 points. That was a competitive series and Jordan wasn’t as good right when he came back.
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@justanotherfan that’s fair but an old Jason Terry also shut down for a finals once apon a time.
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@kjayhawks said in Last Dance:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Jordan didn’t have Rodman in 95 and he only played the last few months of the season after baseball went on strike. Orlando won the series 4-2 but 3 of those victories were by a combined 18 points. That was a competitive series and Jordan wasn’t as good right when he came back.
Jordan was Jordan by the time the playoffs rolled around. Teams with dominant big men always gave Jordan’s Bulls issues because Chicago never had a quality big man to go up against other dominant bigs like Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, and Robinson. The only change that would’ve happened had Jordan come back sooner is Chicago gets the 2 seed and lose to Orlando in the ECF instead of the second round.
Even if Chicago had won the east that year, they still wouldn’t have beaten Houston in the Finals that season because the Rockets were a better team than the previous season’s team by that point. Olajuwon was healthy, the chemistry issues with Drexler were resolved and Houston dominated two 60 win teams in the playoffs that season in Utah and San Antonio and swept Orlando with Olajuwon absolutely schooling both league MVP David Robinson and Shaq in back to back series.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree Chicago struggled with dominate bigs. Like I said we could go back and forth all day with what ifs or what would’ve happened. A fun conversation thanks guys.
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@kjayhawks I am with you there. Teams battled in the 80s and 90s. An argument could be made that LeBron actually helped to bring about the demise - and while that fact may not be well-known or even yet showing financially that is what it is, a demise - of the NBA with his well-known me-me attitude which was apparently highly contagious, creating the touchy-feely and bigtime out of balance league of today. Not any NBA Champion in recent memory would stand a chance against The Jordon, Pippen, Rodman Bulls or The Bad Boys or the Bird in his prime led Celtics teams - not a one.
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You remember back when NBA teams were allowed to fight? Allowed to leave the bench and brawl?
Rudy Tomjanovich almost getting killed by Kermit Washington’s haymaker?
That was the NBA in the late 1970’s through the early 1990’s. But then something happened - television.
Sponsors shied away from the big fights, so they started harsher suspensions, then ejections for leaving the bench, etc. The rules simply don’t allow for that type of thing anymore. Physical play still exists, but you can’t take it past a certain point without ejections, suspensions, etc.
On top of that, salary cap limits make it difficult to keep teams together. As a result, there aren’t as many long simmering rivalries.
The Pistons teams that went toe to toe with the Celtics - those were the same basic rotations for five straight years playing each other a dozen times a year by the time you include playoffs. The Bulls squads saw that same group of Pistons. The Celtics and Lakers had the same basic rotations - Magic, Worthy, Scott, Green, Kareem, Thompson, Rambis vs. Bird, Ainge, McHale, Parrish, etc.
It’s easy to develop those huge rivalries when the core teams stay the same.
It’s much harder when you can’t really keep the complementary pieces around your stars long term.
Guys adapt. You don’t want to say anything about a certain organization knowing you may get signed by them in the offseason. And you certainly don’t want to get kicked out of big games or suspended for being overly physical. A guy is hurting his team if he does that (just ask Silvio De Sousa about how you can hurt your team by throwing punches and getting yourself and others suspended).
So you adjust. No fights. Intense on the court, but friends off it.
Beyond that, a lot of these guys have grown up knowing each other, and being friends since middle school or high school. The best players now start seeing each other regularly starting in 7th or 8th grade. By the time they get to the pros, they have been buddies for 8 or 9 years already. That’s a huge difference.
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@justanotherfan Agree. And everything that you just said are reasons behind the downright sloppy NBA of today.
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@justanotherfan I agree and there is some good stuff to come of it. But the flopping, guys just standing on defense and minimal contact. They are all friends which is cool but there is very little in terms of heated battles these days. Little suspense, the league is a snooze fest compared to the 80s and 90s. That doesn’t mean I think they should fight but at least go toe to toe on both ends of the court.
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I think things are still intense. It’s more reserved for the playoffs, generally, but I think that’s because there are so many more teams that the travel is just brutal.
In 1988 for example, there were just 23 teams. No Orlando. No Miami. No Memphis, Charlotte, New Orleans, Toronto or Minnesota. That eliminates both Florida teams, as well as every team in the south except Atlanta. Road trips were very traditional - Boston, New York/New Jersey, Philly. Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Indy. Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Kings. Seattle/Portland. Houston, San Antonio, Dallas.
Back to backs usually involved those trips and most of the travel was grouped around that to save on flights. Since TV wasn’t as big a factor, there wasn’t pressure to put top teams on national TV on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday, which has absolutely been a nightmare from a schedule perspective.
That means a team like the Lakers may be on their East coast trip and play Boston on Tuesday on national TV, then go down to Philly for a Thursday game before flying down to Miami for the weekend primetime game, then back home for a Tuesday national TV game. That’s a lot of travel, which is why more teams are resting guys between trips, or on trips.
Ideally, the NBA should cut down to around 70 games, go back to the Best of 5 for the first round of the playoffs and start one week earlier. Regular season runs from Mid October to Mid April, but with 12 less games, there are fewer back to backs. Playoffs start in Mid April, but the first round wraps in a week and a half with just best of 5s.
Just my thoughts on how to increase the intensity. Otherwise, it just gets brutal. The Cavs and Warriors met in 4 straight finals a few years back. The Cavs played 102, 103, 100 and 104 games. Golden State played 103, 106, 99 and 103 games. That’s averaging 103 games a season. Injuries caught up with the Cavs in the Final matchup with GS. They caught up with the Warriors the very next year as they limped into the Finals against Toronto. And that includes rest. TV saved the NBA, but its threatening to hurt the game with the scheduling demands.
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@justanotherfan Agreed, I enjoy watching the playoffs but that’s about it. I feel the same way with the MLB. Bunch of guys half assing it til the final month of the regular. I’d be all in on shortening both seasons. I heard the MLB was much better before the strike in the 80s.
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Watching again tonight, the good or even great teams/players Jordan kept from getting titles speaks volumes to me. Think about Jazz teams with Malone and Stockton, good Pacer teams with Reggie Miller and Smits, Knick’s teams with Ewing, Oakley and Starks, Payton and Kemp in Seattle, Barkley with Suns and Clyde the glide while he was in Portland. A good amount of HOFers right there. That’s something he will always have over LeBron IMO. He couldn’t get past the Celtics so he got one to join him in Miami with 2 other all stars. You think about the Celtics, Pistons and Lakers battles in 80s could you imagine Bird or Magic or Thomas joining up with the enemy? LeBron has played with 3 times as many all stars in his career compared to MJ.
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Something that has stood out to me about Jordan that almost certainly makes his achievements possible in the future - the current and any future NBA collective bargaining agreement.
Several reasons for this.
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Salary cap - yes, there was a cap when Jordan played. But in his final season, Jordan made over $30M. That was more than the rest of the starters on the Bulls made, combined. And that’s even though they had two all star caliber players in Pippen and Rodman, a former sixth man of the year in Kukoc and several other solid veterans (Ron Harper, Luc Longley, others). The way the cap was structured then versus now makes it almost impossible to pay a superstar the top dollar and also build that type of supporting cast without crippling your cap situation.
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Scottie Pippen’s contract - the real MVP of the Bulls dynasty was Scottie Pippen’s lengthy extension, that kept him in Chicago through 1998. This deal was signed just as the Bulls were starting to put together their dynasty and allowed the Bulls to have an All-NBA player on the roster for mere peanuts. It would be impossible to have a player half that good signed for that length of time for that cheap now.
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Rookie salary scale - Part of the reason Pippen signed that extension was that he hadn’t really made any money in the NBA when his extension came up, so he took a very low offer. The rookie salary scale now would not allow that to happen. As the fifth pick, Pippen would have made good money in his first three years, and then Chicago would have had to pick up his fourth year option (a no-brainer) followed by handing him a big extension the next summer since he would have qualified for it. That would have probably meant that the Bulls would have had to trade Horace Grant prior to the 1992-93 season to keep Jordan and Pippen teamed up, or move Pippen to keep Grant on the team. And you can forget about luring Rodman and Kukoc while keeping Pippen under the current cap rules.
Needless to say, the current cap makes it basically impossible to build that type of roster. The Bulls would have had to make a decision every couple of years to figure out if they wanted to keep Jordan and Pippen, or Jordan and Grant (or Kukoc, or Rodman). Basically, they would have had to part with a key contributor, and potentially had that key piece show up on a rival roster in the playoffs.
The Last Dance has put a lot of light on that situation. Under current cap rules, I doubt the Bulls win six titles in 8 years. They still probably win four, but I don’t think they would have been able to keep their team together long term with today’s cap.
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@justanotherfan I think Pippen’s contract was indeed a huge role but he wanted the long term guaranteed money. That contract at the time made him the 122nd highest paid player. So it was junk then as well. I think players are too greedy in most sports especially the no cap baseball. I’d be fine with making 18 million and playing on a good team rather than 38 million a year like some of the guys nowadays. Jordan only made 93 million as a player and wasn’t the highest paid at any point in his career to my knowledge. He took more of a Tom Brady approach and one I hope Mahomes does. The money these guys can make by marketing is as much or more than playing if you can play your cards right.
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@justanotherfan said in Last Dance:
Something that has stood out to me about Jordan that almost certainly makes his achievements possible in the future - the current and any future NBA collective bargaining agreement.
Several reasons for this.
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Salary cap - yes, there was a cap when Jordan played. But in his final season, Jordan made over $30M. That was more than the rest of the starters on the Bulls made, combined. And that’s even though they had two all star caliber players in Pippen and Rodman, a former sixth man of the year in Kukoc and several other solid veterans (Ron Harper, Luc Longley, others). The way the cap was structured then versus now makes it almost impossible to pay a superstar the top dollar and also build that type of supporting cast without crippling your cap situation.
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Scottie Pippen’s contract - the real MVP of the Bulls dynasty was Scottie Pippen’s lengthy extension, that kept him in Chicago through 1998. This deal was signed just as the Bulls were starting to put together their dynasty and allowed the Bulls to have an All-NBA player on the roster for mere peanuts. It would be impossible to have a player half that good signed for that length of time for that cheap now.
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Rookie salary scale - Part of the reason Pippen signed that extension was that he hadn’t really made any money in the NBA when his extension came up, so he took a very low offer. The rookie salary scale now would not allow that to happen. As the fifth pick, Pippen would have made good money in his first three years, and then Chicago would have had to pick up his fourth year option (a no-brainer) followed by handing him a big extension the next summer since he would have qualified for it. That would have probably meant that the Bulls would have had to trade Horace Grant prior to the 1992-93 season to keep Jordan and Pippen teamed up, or move Pippen to keep Grant on the team. And you can forget about luring Rodman and Kukoc while keeping Pippen under the current cap rules.
Needless to say, the current cap makes it basically impossible to build that type of roster. The Bulls would have had to make a decision every couple of years to figure out if they wanted to keep Jordan and Pippen, or Jordan and Grant (or Kukoc, or Rodman). Basically, they would have had to part with a key contributor, and potentially had that key piece show up on a rival roster in the playoffs.
The Last Dance has put a lot of light on that situation. Under current cap rules, I doubt the Bulls win six titles in 8 years. They still probably win four, but I don’t think they would have been able to keep their team together long term with today’s cap.
About your last point, the Bulls didn’t lure Tony Kucoc to Chicago, they drafted him in the second round of the 1990 draft. Kucoc was a draft and stash player before that was as common as it was today.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 A good point, the Bulls drafted Jordan, Pippen and Tony. I’ll also add that Luc Longley and Steve Kerr were cheap because they were considered busts before Chicago. Both guys averaged 20, 15 mpg and less than 6 ppg respectively before the bulls picked them up. Pippen was a big question mark going into the draft, dude was a manager on a D2 team and grew like 5 inches one summer, then got the chance to play. But it was a big question mark if he could go toe to toe with the NBAs best. The closest comparison to the Bulls of the 90s is the warriors. They drafted guys like Green, Thompson and Curry that most teams pasted on and didn’t think they could play at that level. It will be interesting to see how the warriors are next season with having paid big bucks to keep Thompson and Curry, not to mention the big money contract Wigs has with them.
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@kjayhawks said in Last Dance:
@Texas-Hawk-10 A good point, the Bulls drafted Jordan, Pippen and Tony. I’ll also add that Luc Longley and Steve Kerr were cheap because they were considered busts before Chicago. Both guys averaged 20, 15 mpg and less than 6 ppg respectively before the bulls picked them up. Pippen was a big question mark going into the draft, dude was a manager on a D2 team and grew like 5 inches one summer, then got the chance to play. But it was a big question mark if he could go toe to toe with the NBAs best. The closest comparison to the Bulls of the 90s is the warriors. They drafted guys like Green, Thompson and Curry that most teams pasted on and didn’t think they could play at that level. It will be interesting to see how the warriors are next season with having paid big bucks to keep Thompson and Curry, not to mention the big money contract Wigs has with them.
Look out for Golden State next year, with everyone back and being healthy and rested. They are also going to have a very high draft pick.
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We have to put Jordan’s earnings into the context of the salary cap while he played. The cap in his final year with Chicago (1997-98) was about $27M. Jordan was able to get $30M that year because of an exception that allowed the Bulls to spend more to retain one specific player.
Prior to his last two years with Chicago, he never made more than $4.5M in a season. Putting that into context, the veterans minimum today is a little over $2M per year, so Jordan made less than that through the early part of his career because everyone in the League (except Bird and Magic) made less than that.
That’s what makes the Pippen deal stick out so much. It’s not just that it was low, it’s that it was low enough that the Bulls were able to pay Kukoc and Rodman more than they would have if Pippen had gotten a market value deal, and there’s almost no way the Bulls could have fit Ron Harper under the cap with the rest of those guys.
Instead, they would have been using a late round draft pick rookie, or starting Steve Kerr (a solid player, no doubt), but with an inexperienced young player coming off the bench with no Ron Harper (no cap room to sign him), and possible either no Kukoc or no Rodman (Kukoc could have left in free agency after 1995 or 1996, Rodman was brought in as a free agent prior to the 1996 season).
It changes how they can build out their team. Pippen under market value was a huge benefit to the Bulls, and specifically to Jordan’s career and legacy. Imagine Pippen leaving Chicago after the 1995 season for more money with a Western Conference contender, having already won three titles.
That changes everything.
