I'm Done
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I have a feeling in a few weeks I’ll be reminded by some of you of my “I’m done” statement!
@ralster Good point on the normal height teams. But what do you make of the observation that we’re an abnormally lacking on height team? Might we run into problems with more than Kentucky because of our lack of height? Is Mickleson going to be an answer at all? Lucas?
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@wissoxfan83 - I don’t see Mickelson being an answer for the simple fact of what has happened to this point. He was in our program, practicing, and learning, for a full season. After that, as a junior, he can’t get any minutes vs. UK other than scrub stuff. He has clearly been our #11 guy (out of 11). I can’t imagine that there is some magic there. I think he’d be “serviceable.” Lucas the same way. “Serviceable.” Traylor might have a bit more. But as far as backups, That is all we’ve got. It is the roster constructed by coach Self.
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I pose this question – given Self’s adherence to a system that is regularly understood to be complex, doesn’t the embarrassment Tuesday (not the loss) fall squarely on Self’s shoulders?
Keep in mind that Self said: "Let’s call it like it is; we weren’t ready to play that game."
Whose job is it to have the team ready to play?
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@HighEliteMajor I had to grin a little when I looked at Bill Self’s opening statement at his postgame press conference, as he took a swig from the water bottle left at the podium for him by the Champions Classic staff.
“I was hoping it was Vodka.”
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@HighEliteMajor Coach Bill Self is the individual charged with having the Kansas Jayhawks Mens Basketball Team ready for competitive matches. Personally, I think he allowed his team to get ambushed to prove a point. He has enough reasons now, to get the players to buy completely in to his program. They will run the offense efficiently. Other than boxing out, crashing the boards, allowing the opponents guards to dribble past mid court without any threat of defense, shooting floaters and finger rolls instead of dunking, and not one player on the court rallying the ball club, i thought they did okay. Based on that performance of the basketball team, Coach Self did not have the Kansas Jayhawks ready to play a competitive basketball game. Hopefully on Monday we will see what this team is supposed to look like.
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@HighEliteMajor Yes, it is Self’s job and I think he was admitting that. He seldom, that I can remember, states that fact as explicitly as some coaches do. He also pointed out, appropriately, that Kentucky has had more practices. Some would say that is an excuse…maybe, but it is also a statement of fact.
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Yes, Self is charged with getting the team ready, but I really think he “let them labor” (to borrow Jaybate’s very applicable phrase)…to teach them that 4 KU McDAAs + other 4stars + athletes simply isnt enough. The quote Self said about this team being “behind where they need to be” was a clue. The second clue was when he spoke about Cliff needing to “learn to score before he gets the ball…”, ie;, maybe if Cliff or other players ran offense that had them moving away from the ball, just maybe you’ve got a Jayhawk recipient of a Mason lob-assist, instead of Mason being forced to take the shots himself…?
Yes, Self is in charge, but he is the Master judge, isnt he? Aand he knew they werent ready. Too soon. HEM’s observation that Self left Oubre in even after his 2nd foul, proves to me he wants that critical McDAA to learn just how he wants/needs/expects a KU team to play. Perfect opp to use KY’s McDs, most of whom the KU guys know from the all-star & AAU circuit, that ‘there’s an example of team play that beat you’…so letting our guys taste it firsthand could be key, going fwd.
I dont expect a greenwood squad like this to beat a Final4 KY squad. Now we outbattled their Bplatoon for an 11-3 run, but lack several things right now to A)sustain the run, and B.)counter any KY adjustment to our run, which is what happenned after halftime.
Also, after the gut-punch, when Self publicly talks about KY’s “length”, the players see he is deflecting some heat off of them, while the pvt practice-gym Self may have a stronger message about positioning, hustle, and toughness…So Self, in 1 statement protects his player’s egos, but they know that lesson deep inside that all competetive athletes know: we got our asses worked! So going fwd, they have respect for their coach’s public disaster-mgmt, and now should be all ears and hard work. Possible that Self used Cal’s kids to simply guide/focus/direct the development of his green Jhwks for the rest of the season. Once I saw how KY played with their Nov.version ‘A’ game, I didnt think this young Jhwk team could knock them off. We tried what we knew (bigman traps, etc) but we just dont know enough stuff to have an arsenal of plays yet. We arent good enough yet. We know for sure now, but sometimes each set of young newbies or unconvinced swagger kids needs to learn or re-learn the lesson again.
Moral: I just dont think this rebooted team CAN be prepped enough by any coach in early Nov. game2 of the season to beat THAT KY team. We gotta be realistic for this squad…in an early Nov matchup.
Again, it may be partly true Oubre played because of recruiting hype/ramifications (and did some nice things), but he needed to play & taste the loss firsthand, for developmental purposes…so Self got dual purpose out of Oubre’s minutes.
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@ralster The Oubre situation is interesting. I am not sure if I believe the “he had to start him to help get future OAD’s” argument. Possibly it is just a situation where Oubre has the highest ceiling of any of the guys who could have started…Graham, Greene and Svi being the other guys. Oubre is a top 10 talent and I really hope that he plays to that level by the end of the year. The only way he will be able to do that is if he gets plenty of minutes. I don’t mind him starting as long as Svi and Greene still get their minutes. That may be tough but we HAVE to have a guy like Svi or Greene getting minutes. Tall guys who can shoot. They need to be in the game. Could Svi / Greene / Oubre split about 13 minutes a person per game? Maybe they could be a “platoon” at the 3 spot. Although if I hear the word platoon used again I may jump out of a window.
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I wish we could talk to someone who was near the floor for that Kentucky game. Size differences don’t show up well on TV. I think we would all have a different appreciation for that game if we all sat close to the court.
I don’t know what Self is going to do if Perry and Wayne continue with their same timid play. He’s counting on those guys to be leaders and to run the pep rally on the floor. Granted, there wasn’t much to get excited about in that game, but the job is still theirs to do, and the boys needs cheerleaders most when getting pounded.
Maybe Self should see if Kevin Young has some cousins playing in HS right now…
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@globaljaybird Yeah, I laughed at that Self/water line too… and thought of another great quote “All I can say is I hope this isn’t a real emergency because I only brought one bottle of vodka”
It was hard to watch the big UK loss, but I don’t see them losing many (if any) games this year. How we fare against everybody else, that will be more of a true measure of this team.
Lastly, I sure hope we get a good chunk of these kids back next year. On one hand if we do really well, which is what we all want, we may not. If we don’t do well, which is no fun at all, then some of their draft stock may go down and they may stay… to go up against another stacked UK team next year.
Ah well, as long as they play hard and don’t give up, I won’t either. RCJH
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Good post and I agree with all your point except perhaps the one on Oubre. A I mentioned in previous post, I understand that Oubre’s dad told Coach Self to be tough on Kelly and not give him any special treatment and if necessary, he might stay an extra year. This leads me to believe that there might have been an off-court issue that had Kelly playing only a few minutes the game before. Aslo, IMHO, Oubre was KU’s best player against UK.
On a better note, maybe a less than optimal team this year means that lot of the players will come back and we will have an experience team like we did in '08…and that turned out rather well. Also, don’t forget that next year, the team will have not only months of extra practice but it will play in the World University Games representing the USA against world class competition in July of 2015 and will start the season a lot better prepared than this year…
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@wissoxfan83
"I looked at that Florida game as thoroughly embarrassed. Wiggins made a flurry of threes in the last minute. I know Florida was good but we were not very competitive that game and looked like the KU JV playing FLorida."
I guess you missed the part where KU started 4 freshmen and one sophomore against a Florida team that was playing at home. was favorite to win the National Title and started 4 Seniors and one sophomore and yet KU got within 4, lost by 6 and outscored them in the second half by 9…I just wished UK would have embarrassed us like that.
"And its fair WEATHER fan!"
Really? that is the best you can come up? Color me impressed; maybe I should have use “band-wagon” fan instead and since KU is always good, you would be aboard just about all the time on the KU basketball wagon…or until one bad game happens.
"A simple switch to MLB’s system will removed the loathsome OAD that is ruining this game and let us enjoy our teams again without fear of guys leaving early and without fears of whoever is the best recruiter hoarding the best players like is happening now."
And how exactly you suggest the NCAA achieves this when it is NOT and NCAA rule, it is an NBA rule?
"And to top it all off, I just heard KU gave up 430 yards to some kid from OU, costing Melvin Gordon his record for yards in a game! Yes, I’m a Badger football fan too!"
Yes, you are a true Badger fan indeed, since you have lived through years and years of Badger basketball underachievement and continue to support them and yet you bolt after one bad basketball game by KU. Apparently it hurts you more that your beloved Badger football record lasted, what? … all of one week? than KU being at the perceiving end of said record. True KU fans will continue to follow our programs even when they get thumped by OU or when they win the Orange Bowl and end up with the best record in college football. Call us crazy, but we are true KU fans after all…
You really should be posting here…
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Regarding any possible off court issue with Oubre…who knows? I personally highly doubt it, as he is an exceptionally well-spoken kid, with a faith-based background, and strong family upbringing and support. But, as I said, I’m just speculating based on what I know in general about Kelly. By all accounts, KOubre is exactly the type of kid we love having as a Jayhawk…oh, and I forgot to add the McDAA athleticism, the 7’3 span, and the nose for the ball and rebounds, along with a sweet 3stroke.
He just at square 1 in Self’s system.
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It could be one of many things such as missed class, missed assignment, poor practice or another issue that got resolved…who knows. However, I am certain Coach Self would not have played him just to bow to OAD pressure, he is just not that type of person.
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@JayHawkFanToo I guess you missed the very first response to my original post!! Why are you still criticizing when everyone else here could see I really didn’t mean it? And these are opinions! I think the Florida game was just as embarrassing as the Kentucky game. So what if you don’t?
I’ve never posted a thing on anything related to WIsconsin. I enjoy their teams, and am certainly on the bandwagon with them but KU is where my heart is at, even though it’s a broken heart, which my friends here are trying to get me to see the glass is half full not half empty.
RCJHKU! Beat Rider!
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@drgnslayr I am a member of the pep band, so I was sitting courtside for the whole game. I haven’t had the heart to rewatch the game on DVR, but I can say from my experience on the floor that UK was vastly bigger than us at every position. Every time Frank and Devonte’ drove in, you could just feel them seize up at the two paint defenders that were waiting for them. It got in their heads from the start, and as soon as Frank started jump-stopping it was over. Self talked a lot about driving to pass instead of shoot, but the passing angles were almost impossible to find with the length all over the court. It seemed from where I was sitting that the only solution was driving to pass COMBINED with off-ball movement from the other four guys on the court, but they didn’t seem familiar enough with each other to execute. It also didn’t help that we couldn’t buy a basket even when we did get a few open looks. But yes, from the floor the difference in the two teams was dramatic, and you could feel the team’s nerves as soon as they got on the court together.
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Great to hear your perspective from up close! And I LOVE the pep band! Keep up the good work…we don’t need the piped in music like other schools use to fabricate the environment.
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@ralster/@kansascomet I will respectfully and strongly disagree. I have never, ever bought the “let them labor” narrative. I don’t believe it’s true. I don’t believe that it is fathomable. That is tantamount to not doing everything one can do to win. Losses can help. But wins are better. Self knows we’re going to lose. We aren’t going undefeated. Lessons will be learned. But there is no way he purposefully under prepared, or purposefully put the players in a position to fail. No way he *let them get ambushed." This game meant more than just a win. It was prestige, it was recruiting, it was momentum. It was a national stage. And we got embarrassed. One thing about Self is that he plays to win.
Personally – and again respectfully – I think that some of these explanations for the loss are cop outs. Attempts to explain the inexplicable.
Calling a spade a spade – Bill Self did not have this team prepared for Tuesday night. It was Bill Self and only Bill Self. Let’s not try to dress that up. He admitted we weren’t prepared.
Brannen Greene said Friday: 'In the (UK) game, we had nothing we knew we could go to. Past teams knew they had something they could go to. They knew if they could throw it into the post, the guy was going to seal."
We had nothing to go to. Whose fault is that? Whose job is it to build in contingencies, and options, and to make adjustments? Whose job is it to be prepared?
Has anyone given consideration to the possibility that coach Cal was impeccably prepared to play against our system? That he game planned? That he adjusted his scheme to kick our ass? That the defensive scheme Cal employed was designed to specifically take advantage of UK’s advantages? That Self got out coached?
We saw last season where we were flat not prepared to play against the press and 1-3-1 half court trap at Atlantis (Self specifically admitted to that afterward), and that we were flat not prepared to handle SDSU’s post trapping (Self specifically admitted to that afterward) and that we were flat not prepared to attack Stanford’s zone in March (Self did not admit to that afterward).
I’ll toss this in too … Kentucky is young. We started two juniors, two sophomores and a freshman.
Usually, Self wins the coaching battle. In 2012, Self’s coaching in our tourney run, and much of that season, was masterful. it was the single biggest reason we reached the Final Four. Tuesday, though, was a coaching knockout. UK was much better prepared. No one can argue that.
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@HighEliteMajor But at least the lights are on…LOL
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@HighEliteMajor We got ambushed by our own Coach, point blank. We did not have any height on the court until it was too late. We have height. I don’t recall seeing Lucas or Mickelson getting dominated? Then again, they weren’t really in the game when it mattered. There is a method to the madness. Coach Self said our opponent is probably 3 weeks ahead of us, since they had 6 competitive games against professionals in the Bahamas prior to the season. Ambushed was a strong word, but so was the score. The box score, with the exception of our shooting, actually didn’t look so bad. We can and will compete this year. If it is in fact Coach Self’s fault that we weren’t prepared to play the game, then by not having our team prepared and putting our team in the best possible position to win, and based on the score of the game, I call it getting ambushed. It is a teaching lesson, and I am sure he didn’t think it would get as bad as it did. However, there were not any references to Topeka YMCA, there were references to Vodka. Anytime Coach Self spends more time laughing than chewing out players, then it appears he treated the game as an exhibition at this point of the season. My opinion.
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@wissoxfan83
I guess you missed the last line of my response to your original post…
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This team will be fine. This is Kansas. Barring a huge rash of injuries, this team is still going to win 25+ games.
The Big 12 is loaded this year, but the road to the title still runs very clearly through Lawrence.
KU is not the only team that will have its hands full with UK. That Kentucky team has the chance to be one of the greatest college teams of the last 35 years. They will be right up there with the 1992 Duke team, the 2007 Florida team, 2008 KU, 2009 UNC, 1990 UNLV, 1984 Georgetown and 1982 UNC. Multiple pros, loaded team, matchup nightmares.
The key for KU at this point is to regroup and get right in time for the Gators to visit Lawrence. They have four games over the next week to get their gameplan straight, get healthy, work out some kinks and get some confidence before a very good Florida team comes calling. If they no show at home against Florida, then we can start to worry. Getting torched by the best collection of pure talent in college basketball in at least 25 years isn’t a huge issue. It’s November. Failing to recover is a huge issue.
Recovery starts tonight.
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@justanotherfan I like your enthusiasm, but this team might not have the mettle to win a bunch of road games in this tough league. I guess your comment “getting torched” is still what sticks in my craw. I know other great teams have gotten torched. I just have the feeling, in my gut, that we’ve been torched more than our fair share in the last season and a half. I’m still disillusioned, I’ll get over it!
RCJHKU. Beat Rider
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I agree. Coach Self is too good to let one game define the season. The conference is extremely competitive this year, but to quote Rick Flair, to be the Champ you have to beat the Champ…and KU is still the Champ.
Too bad we don’t get to play UK early next year, when KU hopefully has several returning starters, experience and extra practice and will have played in the World University games…a lot like UK this year. Hopefully the game against Florida will have a better outcome this time around. Florida is trying to replace 4 starting seniors and much like KU, it having trouble integrating the younger players into the rotation. They just lost to UL Monroe, so obviously are not the team that went undefeated in conference, lost only 2 away games to ranked teams and lost in the Final Four to eventual Champion UConn.
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@wissoxfan83
KU doesn’t have to win a bunch of road games to win the Big 12.
The key to “The Streak” has always been that KU is so tough at home that they just need to not lose road games they should win.
KU should win at Tech and TCU. Obviously nothing is ever guaranteed, but they should win those two road games. They should also beat Baylor and probably Oklahoma State with both of those schools in a bit of a down cycle.
That’s presumably 12 or 13 wins in conference right there assuming they don’t lose more than one home game. Let’s be honest - KU doesn’t lose many home games. Losing 2 home conference games would be a huge shock.
If that’s the case, they need to get maybe 2 or 3 more wins on the road against K-State, WVU, OU, Texas and Iowa State. They should be able to handle K-State and they match up well with ISU. WVU is good, but doesn’t have the size to hamper them. OU is a matchup problem, as is Texas, but as long as they win the home games against those two, they can lose the road matchups and still win the conference because, unlike KU, none of those other teams is likely to run the table at home. The strength of the conference should work to KU’s advantage because none of the other challengers is likely to do better than 7-2 or 8-1 at home.
KU still has poll position in the Big 12, and that is mostly because of Allen Fieldhouse.
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All these Big12 teams that are so tough for KU, won’t they be tough for the other Big12 teams as well?
Everybody plays everybody twice, so It’s not like KU will be at a disadvantage compared to ISU or Texas.
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Yes and no. KU has a gigantic bull’s eye whenever they play on the road; remember the red-outs, black-outs, white-outs teams have when playing KU? They do not seem to have these type of hype for other teams. The Big 12 is going to be super competitive this year and I would think a 14-4 conference record (KU’s last season) would win the conference; heck, maybe even a 13-5 might. Five Big 12 teams (50%) are now ranked in the top 25; no other conference comes even close.
