Glad that Roy is coming back, but he picked the wrong weekend.
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@jaybate-1.0 Yes, some of these investigations just go away on their own as in, “Nothing to,see here folks, move along, move along.”
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What exactly is the “Scully/Mulder” defense?
The original investigation took place in 2011 and at the time, the only evidence available was that provide by a tutor, since there was a lot of non-cooperation by school personnel at the time. Unlike the Courts, the NCAA cannot force anyone to testify, participation is strictly voluntary, and this is why all the “money under the table” accusations are next to impossible to prove. Unless the guilty/donor party comes forward, the NCAA cannot compel anyone to testify; the school might be able to pursue regress via civil court but other than than there is nothing else it can do.
Since 2011, UNC itself started a series of investigations and now the results have been made public, and just like I said, the NCAA is reopening the case, since and unlike the Courts, there is no double jeopardy.
NCAA re-open UNC investigation…
Now, where is the corruption again?
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It is perhaps helpful to recall that UNC under Frank McGuire preceded UNC under Dean Smith, Guthrie, Matt and Roy. Put another way, the UNC legacy has hardly always been squeaky clean.
It is also perhaps useful to recall that Big Shoes reputedly got a very early start at UNC with Sonny V, MJ, Dean and Roy at a nexus back in the later part of Dean’s career.
What gives me pause is that Roy came from that seemingly complicated UNC culture straight to KU and reputedly divided up the country for recruiting purposes with Dean. If that were actually true, it kind of suggests some possibility of an ethical relativism from that UNC culture that might influence judgement in other areas like academic compliance.
Further as @ParisHawk noted, KU has now had a Chancellor since around 2009 that had an administrative career at UNC possibly overlapping some of the problems at UNC.
But, again, I am having a bit of cognitive dissonance with all of this, because Chancellor BGL has done quite a bit of house cleaning at KU, and Roy has until recently appeared to be one of the most squeaky clean coaches in college basketball–one of the right way guys. And Dean appeared to be one of them, too, from a very far outpost of observation in a time of vastly less access to information, than today. He reputedly put the pieces together at UNC after the troubled McGuire years there, and was a respected pioneer of ACC integration in the 1960s. The man was given a Presidential Medal in honor of his accomplishments, if I recall correctly.
Frankly, the only question I ever had with Dean was that he took a job with Frank McGuire in the first place, only to quickly replace him when McGuire reputedly got tagged with improprieties. Based on what little I have been able to piece together from reading, McGuire was reputedly only a slightly less colorful an actor in the post WWII era of college basketball than Adolph Rupp. And it was not as if Dean would have had no knowledge of McGuire’s background, when he took the job as his assistant, since Phog Allen reputedly had for quite a long time been a critic of many eastern coaches and of corruption in eastern basketball during Allen’s time. But, at the same time, I have never found anything indicating that Allen ever directly questioned McGuire’s integrity, so I am not really sure what to make of McGuire. Maybe someone else that knows/recalls more about Allen’s relationship with McGuire will be able to educate us on this.
In any case, I admit I am not sure what to make of Roy right now, either during his UNC tenure, or during his KU tenure, in regards to academic compliance issues. I don’t recall any academic compliance issues, or even rumors of any, during his KU years. And an NCAA inquiry reputedly exonerated UNC and Roy in this regard. But then an internal inquiry reputedly triggered by new information reputedly lead to a finding of serious, long term issues. I don’t know where this leads next. But I suspect we are likely to find our quite a bit in coming years. I hope what we learn is that Dean and Roy really were “the lepers with the most fingers”–t0 borrow from Robert Towne’s “The Two Jakes.” But Roy is also possibly near the end of his career and coaches nearing the ends of their careers appear vulnerable to be scapegoated for a multitude of sins that may, or may not, be their doing. Thus, though the internal inquiry certainly seems ominous, it seems possible that many axes of power are coming into serious conflict here and that there remains much more to be heard as it plays out. Universities are reputedly not monolithic organizations when it comes to their politics, and particularly when it comes to their more or less spun off private not-for-profit 501.c3 athletic departments. My recollection over the years has been that there has appeared to be quit a lot of power struggles in universities and athletic departments from time to time. Thus, I for one, will be keeping an eye out for stories and reports about the various axes of power trying to assert themselves at UNC regarding this issue in hopes of more fully grasping what may actually be going on.
So: regardless of which inquiry eventually turns out closer to the truth, I am not yet inclined to exclude entirely the possibility that outside agendas may be at play in the way this event has been unfolding.
I suspect the plot will thicken some, if/when the NCAA re-investigates and re-evaluates this situation in light of what UNC’s inquiry has revealed.
But how and to what end is beyond me right now.
Regardless, this appears a troubled and unfortunate passage for college basketball and one KU fans should probably keep an eye on.
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“Democracy is two wolves & a lamb. Freedom is a well armed lamb”
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I’m having a hard time dealing with this situation at UNC. I don’t know what to think of Roy in this mess. I’ve had a past sore spot for Roy when he left and when he wouldn’t recruit back east. But that has long since past, and I remember many fond moments at Kansas with Roy at the helm. And Roy made up a lot of ground with me when he supported Kansas in the '08 finals. I still accept Roy as a Jayhawk, and always will. So I’m pulling for him, and I hope he is clean.
I don’t harbor ill thoughts towards UNC either. We have too many ties with them, weaved back through history.
I know this situation makes me wonder about our program. All I can say is that I’m hopeful we are running everything on the up and up.
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@drgnslayr said:
I know this situation makes me wonder about our program. All I can say is that I’m hopeful we are running everything on the up and up.
Same here. It’s natural to be reflective when a story like this comes along.
I take some comfort that kinds of kids we are recruiting has shifted – Ellis and Svi are pretty sharp kids as is Selden. Even Wiggins and Embiid seemed to be sincere in their interest to pursue academics.
Aldrich finished his degree in 2013 and McLemore has returned to work on his degree as well.
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“I take some comfort that kinds of kids we are recruiting has shifted…”
RIght on! And would kids with a background of academic excellence be interested in going to a university where diplomas are diluted to nothing more than a piece of toilet paper?
If the claims are right at UNC, that has a degrading impact on the reputation of the university, hence following all the way down to the diplomas earned by hardworking students!
If the claims are true… shouldn’t the entire university be investigated in depth to make sure there aren’t other situations with questionable ethics? If I was a student at UNC, I would want that. I would want the entire university investigated and (hopefully) given a clean bill of health to help legitimize the education standards used there.
This whole thing stinks and I am hoping for the best possible outcome brought on by a transparent investigation.
I’m not thrilled with our justice department, but it seems like this may be approaching their jurisdiction more so than the NCAA. The impact goes far wider than athletics.
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This UNC story captures the point that I was trying (and likely failing) to make several weeks ago in the thread about whether athletes should be paid and whether the OAD was a good thing or not.
For quite a while now, there has been a tendency to push athletes into these “fake” classes in order to keep them eligible. At some universities, academic advisers would refuse to sign off on an athlete taking a more challenging class load. As many have pointed out here, that degrades the value of the degree enormously.
This is going on at a lot of schools right now. I can’t say which ones because you would have to be on the ground at each of those schools to know what is really going on, but it goes on. A few years ago it was the Alabama football program. Before that it was Miami. Ohio State has had some allegations. So has Texas. USC has as well. North Carolina is just the latest to get caught.
And why are they getting caught? Well, more and more players are leaving school with worthless degrees while seeing the university profit from their abilities and they are speaking out - see McCants accusations, which now seem to be ringing very much true.
This is just the latest groundshaking event in what could be leading to an ultimate volcanic explosion of revelations regarding the NCAA and its universities.
I don’t fault Roy Williams for this necessarily. From what I understand talking to players, the coaches are rarely involved in that sort of thing - set up a way for them to deny knowledge later. Instead, the academic advisers and tutors are in charge of that. If they think an athlete may be an academic risk (basically if the athlete isn’t a student that would have received an academic scholarship regardless of athletic ability) they are steered towards at least some (in some cases all) paper classes.
The NCAA is a sham. The emperor has no clothes. It’s time to start accepting that reality.
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The KU basketball program has volunteer monitors that stand outside each class the student-athletes take and make sure they attend classes, otherwise they are immediately reported to the staff. If I understand correctly, Coach Weis did something similar where academics had a priority (Notre Dame like) and made sure students were on a path to earn a degree; one of the good things he did but nobody seems to care since it does not win games.
Now, look at the KU basketball roster:
- Frank Mason III, So - Undecided
- Wayne Selden, Jr., So - Undecided
- Cliff Alexander, Fr - Undecided
- Devonte’ Graham, Fr - Undecided
- Evan Manning, Jr - Sports Management
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Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk, Fr - Undecided -
Tyler Self, R-So - Sport Management -
Kelly Oubre, Jr., Fr- Undecided -
Brannen Greene, So - Undecided -
Christian Garrett. Sr - Sports Management -
Josh Pollard. Fr - Finance -
Conner Frankamp, So- Undecided
31… Jamari Traylor. Jr - Liberal Arts and Sciences 33. Landen Lucas, So - Business 34. Perry Ellis. Jr - Sports Management 42. Hunter Mickelson, R-Jr - Communication Studies
Out of 16 players, 8 show as “undecided,” 4 show “Sports Management.” and one Liberal Arts and Sciences. Out of 16 players, only 3 players show what would be considered a traditional college major. Draw your own conclusions.
Having said that, every player that has left KU early in the recent past has left in good standing and hence KU does not get penalized. by the NCAA. I don’t believe, although I could be wrong, basketball players are allowed to take non-lecture classes except for players like Aldrich that was already out of the programs and took on-line classes to finish his degree.
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"And why are they getting caught? Well, more and more players are leaving school with worthless degrees while seeing the university profit from their abilities and they are speaking out - see McCants accusations, which now seem to be ringing very much true. "
And so many of these athletes graduate, or leave college somewhere in the middle when they were clearly never qualified to be in higher education. We’ve all seen it in the media for years now… college students/graduates with a 2nd grade reading/writing aptitude, etc.
How are they allowed to get that far in education with their lack of skills?
The problems root back far before they arrive on college campuses. This truly is an example where the feds need to jump in. I hate to say that, but unless these issues are addressed on a federal level, from investigations to policy changes to reinforcement, nothing will be accomplished to change what is happening now. This is way beyond the legal scope of the NCAA.
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@jaybate-1.0 This is going to be big, and going to be quite ugly, I’m afraid. Here’s the part that makes me ill: ** "When you bring your own academic counselor from Kansas and that counselor continued the sham for eligibility purposes, it is not believable that Roy Williams didn’t know about it," Gurney said. "He asked the athletic director about the course loads."
That’s from CBS, quoting Gerald Gurney,Drake Group president, about the scandal. Which means it is a really big deal What he is saying is that Roy did the same thing here for 15 years. He brings over his 'fixer" from KU…say what??? So, the bottom line will be a whole bunch of grief coming to UNC, and a whole bunch of grief coming for our 15 years with Roy. We won’t be on probation for it, but we will hear about it from every KU hater from now until the cows come home.
Here’s a link to the entire story: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24765822/uncs-unprecedented-academic-fraud-case-will-test-ncaa**
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I believe KU is too far removed to be involved. I am not sure there is a statue of limitation but I have not heard any KU player state the things former UNC are saying about the courses they took.
Also. did you noticed this paragraph?
"The NCAA, which announced in June it had reopened the North Carolina case once key witnesses began cooperating, will use Kenneth Wainstein’s report into the scandal."
As I indicated, the NCAA cannot compel anyone to testify and the cooperation is voluntary. Once UNC cooperated and uncovered information, the NCAA re-opened the case. All of the new information is based on the Wainstein report that was commissioned by UNC.
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When it rains, it pours:
The Daily TarHeel In his first comments about the Wainstein report, Roy Williams was shell-shocked
On a more upbeat note, does anyone know if tonight’s ceremony is being streamed/broadcast? I’d love to watch.
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Unfortunately this “just keep them eligible” attitude goes back as far as at least junior high school, from what I can tell. There are very few controls on the course load that students take in 6th, 7th and 8th grade. Because of that, each school or school district acts independently other than the yearly assessments (which are also wrought with fraud and manipulation, but that’s another story for another day). Since each school or district has oversight, they can make sure that certain kids - whether athletes or kids of donors or whatever - avoid certain classes and get moved into other classes. This isn’t just for athletes either. I know of at least two situations involving high school students where kids in line for academic scholarships were able to change their schedule’s mid semester to avoid getting B’s or C’s in a class, thereby keeping their GPA up.
At the base of it all is simple influence peddling. If you are athletic, or your parents know the superintendent, or you have a scholarship to an Ivy League school, or whatever, there is a chance that manipulation will take place because having that athlete or Ivy Leaguer from your school increases that school’s prominence. In an age of education budget cuts, where every teacher and school and district is trying to justify itself and it’s budget, a little (or a lot of) massaging the curve isn’t that surprising to me.
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@JayHawkFanToo I understand that you have to have a high level of proof to go forward on these investigations. Here is how ESPN characterized the scandal: ** "Since 2011, the university has conducted several reviews related to the academics scandal and provided the NCAA with updates. North Carolina announced in 2012 that it had found problems with 54 classes in the Department of African and Afro-American Studies (AFAM) taught from summer 2007 to summer 2011, including grade changes, forged faculty signatures on grade rolls and limited or no class time.
North Carolina forwarded the results of that investigation to the NCAA, which ruled the university did not break any rules related to the AFAM scandal."
Maybe the threshold wasn’t met- I just remember picking my jaw up off the floor when it was dismissed. I’m not convinced the NCAA isn’t being dragged into this, almost against their will They learned their lesson with SMU - do what’s right, and you kill the cash cow. Yes, i hope Roy was clean when he was here - makes you wonder why he needed an academic adviser to follow him from KU to UNC. I could see an asst coach, a weights coach,etc… but an academic adviser?
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Keep in mind that at the time UNC claimed it was an “academic” issue (since half the student taking the classes were not athletes) and over which the NCAA has no jurisdiction. Recently, the school has admitted that it was and academic “AND” Athletic department issue and now the NCAA has jurisdiction, at least over the part involving the Athletic Department. Again, the NCAA is limited in what it can and cannot do, regardless of what the situation is. Also, keep in mind that the rules are setup by committees comprised of school representatives; they can change the rules at any time if they elect to do so; they just choose not to. It is unrealistic to expect the NCAA to act on something they are not authorized to act.
I do understand that it is fashionable and easier to just blame everything that is wrong with college sports on the NCAA, but doing so does not means it is correct.
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All true.
I’ll never forget my high school academic adviser telling me to just take another sports study hall class because I had the minimum requirements fulfilled for HS graduation. That was a painful lesson when I advanced to college and had to take many non-credited hours in order to fulfill requirements at the college level.
No one was putting effort into me to “just keep me eligible” because I was never on a sports scholarship.
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Just got home from the 60th reunion, amazing! Coaches had great stories and all were so thankful to be a part of AFH. Gave praise to each other, support staff and fans. Hopefully you can see some of it. Ran really late, but not many left… Jay did a great job, glad I went! Roy was very touched by a grateful crowd.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Roy Williams.
I loved him.
I hated him.
I liked him.
I felt sorry for him.
I still love him.
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Dad Gum Dad Gum, I feel the same way.
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Aw shucks.
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I’d much rather see Roy come back with his basketball team in tow, provided of course that we return the favor and go to the home of KU grad Dean Smith.
Then lets get Larry to bring his squad up, and we’ll travel to Dallas as a return favor.
I know it will never happen. Athletic directors don’t give fans what they want to see. They give fans games that minor league NCAA teams AD’s want to see, so we get schedulls (pun intended) with Cal-Santa Clause and Acorn St.
Seriously, imagine the buzz if UNC and Roy came to town as part of a home and home! It would be the most anticipated matchup of the year. A scalpers delight, a @jaybate-1.0 smorgasbord, a chessmatch for @HighEliteMajor to figure out, heck, even @Jesse-Newell might blow a few neuron connections in his brain sabermetricking every nuance of the game.
I want this game to happen.
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@wissoxfan83
I’m with you.
How about we form a preseason tourney… “The Naismith Classic”
Here are the participants:
KU
UNC
Wake Forest
SMU
Does that offer Kansas some favoritism? Yes. But more, it connects the dots with our legacy and it lifts the significance of all those coaches. I’m certain we wouldn’t have a problem with WF and SMU… how do we get Roy on board?
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@drgnslayr I’m there.
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@drgnslayr I like it. You could get Maryland with Turgeon as well, although 5 team tournies don’t work very well! A playin game perhaps?
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Hold the tournament every year there are three other Jayhawks coaching in D1. Invitational. No one has to bring their team if they don’t want to coach against a pal, or former player. The only rule is you cannot have any players enrolled in paper classes.
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@jaybate-1.0 Well thought out (what’s new). I like it.
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@wissoxfan83
You could also get Jerrod Hasse and UAB, Rex Walters and the University of San Fransisco, Tad Boyle and Colorado, Kevin Stallings and Vanderbilt, Barry Hinson and Southern Illinois, Joe Dooley and Florida Gulf Coast and Jeff Boschee and Missouri Southern State. Also Tim Carter at Southern Carolina State and Mark Fox at Georgia are KU graduates. Several Former KU players are also Assistant coaches at other schools. If you want to stretch it, you can have UK as well; after all Calipari was an assistant coach under Larry Brown and Adolph Rupp…well…he played basketball at KU and learned coaching from the “Phog” himself.
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@JayHawkFanToo And let’s bring Popovich, although I think the Spurs may be the favorites. He was some kind of pupil/assistant under Brown for one year at KU. Can you imagine who sat on the KU bench in the 80’s?!! Roy, Bill, Larry, Cal, Pop, Danny, Turgeon
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I forgot about Maryland, UAB, USF, Colorado, SIU, FGC and MSS…
Chances are we wouldn’t get UNC anyways. I’d be okay with swapping in another team.
From this large group we could surely get 3 other teams to go every year.
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@wissoxfan83
I was looking only at college , but if you want NBA then we can bring Alvin Gentry who is Head Coach of the Suns and was an assistant on the '88 Championship team and Jacque Vaughn who is Head Coach of the Magic.
Also R. C. Buford, General Manager of the Spurs, Milt Newton, General Manager of the Timberwolves and Kevin Pritchard, General Manager of the Pacers.
