Self Knows -- And That Is A Relief
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@Statmachine Do you think that a coach’s system, scheme, approach, patience, demands, expectations, etc., can impact his ability to be successful with inexperienced players?
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"He recognizes that OADs aren’t the panacea. "
Amen. I think Self sees OADs as a piece, and even then, only as a potential piece. He recruits the best talent he can land, but I think he realizes an easier path is to only have one or two OADs playing on a team full of experienced 3 and 4 yr players.
I wish we would consistently land solid PG recruits who had their heads on right and were not focused on starting as freshmen. I’d like to see us give 90% of the PG minutes to a quality PG who is either a junior or senior. The rest of the minutes goes to the freshman or sophomore coming up.
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@HighEliteMajor I respect your knowledge and experience, and I also mostly agree with you. I do wonder if we would be discussing this if Embid didn’t get injured and we had won the national championship. So my question is how much should injuries affect your analysis. Kentucky wasn’t the same without Nerlans, but with healthy players, they do very well, thank you. And KU was a lot better when Joel was healthy. Just saying.
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Quotes from coach Self. They are the best education
@HighEliteMajor Well, sometimes. Other times they’re a smokescreen. How many times were we over on kusports and a poster would be talking up some unranked player we signed and pointing to a quote from Self about how good the guy is, and then saying things like “Self just found another diamond in the rough”, or “Self wouldn’t be bringing him in if he didn’t like his game. I’ll trust coach Self over you.”
Of course, that’s not really relevant to the discussion, just more of a caution to everyone to not take what Self says at face value. In addition to his many other talents, the guy knows how to talk to the media.
As to these particular quotes, nothing really earth shattering. Of course Self likes guys with experience. Experience enhances the chances of having a greater basketball IQ, at least within the system. It means you spend less time coaching things like how to set a screen or where a certain player should be standing in a particular situation, and you delve deeper into the playbook. You work on execution rather than teaching fundamentals.
I believe Self has always known this. I mean, this wasn’t his first freshman-laden team. This wasn’t his first time dealing with talented freshman. So this quote, for me, still doesn’t address the premise that Self has always and continues to recruit the best talent. Take the second part of his quote:
“But I do think we could have a better team (referring to this upcoming season). Last year, I think that because we were so young, I think we didn’t play as well consistently as what we had hoped for.”
So Self thought we were too young last year to develop consistency? That didn’t stop him from recruiting top 10, top 20 talent again this year. Talent that might very well play over more experienced players already on the roster. When you look at the recruiting classes side by side: Wiggins (1) vs Alexander (3), Selden (14) vs Oubre (11), Frankamp (34) vs Graham (36), and we’ll say Mason vs Mykhailiuk. Pretty similar make-up. The glaring difference is Embiid, who was significantly lower ranked at the time of his signing but ended at #6 (per ESPN rankings). And we see Self continue to recruit the top players from the '15 class.
To me, the quote doesn’t signal any kind of philosophical recruiting shift for Self. All it says is that Self acknowledges that there are going to be some years that shake out where we are really young, and other years that we will be more experienced.
Sorry, didn’t mean to shat all over your revelation. But for me, I won’t consider our strategy any different until I see him stop targeting top 10, presumed OAD talent.
P.S. I also wonder how we will view that level of talent if the NBA changes its rules and players have to stay in college 2 years. Is that enough time that we would feel better about recruiting that tier again?
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@HighEliteMajor I would just like to know the names and Rivals rankings of the players you would have been recruiting from the class of 2014. And if anyone of those particular players opted to go somewhere else–like Karviar Shepherd did in 2013–who would you have gone after next? You have consistently promoted your theory that OADs are not good for Self’s system. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just would like some specifics.
I would just like the names of those you would have gone after and those you would recruit if the one you really wanted didn’t come to KU. Also, how low in the rankings would you go to get the type of player you really need?
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I’ve no clue who HEM would go after but Bill specifically goes after guys that play the inside out, high low offense & those that can be game changers on defense like Rush & Releford & rim protectors like Joel & I’m OK with that. Would I like to see him open it up offensively? Hell yes, wouldn’t we all. Developing a come from behind attack with screens & 3’s is the way of the world now, Bill needs to adjust IMO & many others agree also. Would the Harrison twins flourish in this system as opposed to the motion offense that Cal prefers? I’ve my doubts but no one can say with any degree of certainty. When playing a motion game there is less focus on all five as contributors during sets. It’s more of a 2-3 man offensive set with dribble penetration foremost of the attack plan, with pick& rolls commonplace. What ever a guy wants to do is preety much the definition of whom he goes after. but keep in mind that superior OADs who can play a systematic 5 man game at D-1 level are rare. Wiggs had his struggles as we all watched, but when bottled up by a pesky Stanford defense we really had no plan B attack that was successful to get us over the hump. This is where I think Bill could improve with weapons like Greene & Frankamp going forward. If he would start these progressions early in the fall during the non con, we very well may be a much stronger team after conference & the show.
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Your PS (not BS) nailed it! The NBA is going to two years outta high school in the near future and it should make the level of play better in both college and the league.
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@HighEliteMajor If you go to KU’s ESPN recruiting page it appears that our program is recruiting or has given scholarship offers to 18 five star recruits, 6 four star recruits, and 1 three star recruit. I think if 3/4ths of the scholarships given out by KU are to 5 star guys and 4 out of the top 5 guys are being recruited by KU then maybe you are reading too much into what Bill Self is saying? That being said if he happens to land 5 star Forward Ivan Rabb and Center Diamond Stone don’t you believe they would start over Ellis, Lucas, and Mickelson next year? If your theory were accurate why would he recruit these guys if he has 3 senior forwards next year? Maybe going with bigs is bad because we could have depth issues next year if we dont get a big or 2? So lets say Jaylen Brown and Jalen Brunson the top PG and SG in next years class come to KU who starts? If your theory were true Naadir Tharpe and AW3 would still be on the team because it would be time for them to get significant minutes. Instead they opted to leave because their time and experience had been trumped by highly talented younger players.
I think If he says our team could be better next year its because we have 4 McDonald’s all Americans starting and our point guards have a year under their belts. A freshman point guard that coach Self believes is one of the best in the class. Hunter Mickelson has a year in the system and 6 inches on his vertical and he is eligible. Maybe its that our 2 best shooters Green and Frankcamp have a year under their belts? Maybe its that European phenom that’s somewhere between 6’6" and 6’8" can play the point and is quite possibly the best guard on our team? Maybe because Wayne Seldens knee is 100% and he has his spring back?
There has been so much positive media on KU this off season that there is reason to be happy. My point is just be happy with the hand we were delt because its the only one we have and trust in HCBS.
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Maybe the magic recruit is a 5-star superstar that isn’t going to quite make the NBA lottery list after 1 year.
We’ll test that theory this year with Kentucky… who has a boatload of 5-star recruits who will be sophomores. My guess is, barring injuries, Kentucky will be the team to beat and it will take one heck of a performance to dethrone them off their path to a NC.
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Outside of what a shoe co may require you to take, and you apparently do have to take and play what they offer, or they will apparently stack someone else instead, legal recruiting appears a numbers game and not much more. Most coaches can probably “close” on a mother. Self is reputedly good at it but not apparently vastly better, or he probably would not have to work so hard and long at recruiting.
The non shoe co part of the recruiting game appears to be:
Offer all those that everyone thinks are good.
Text and tweet.
Text and tweet some more. Never stop.
Sign 1 in 20.
Add those you are forced to take.
Coach up.
Invest salary.
Kiss wife.
Repeat.
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@HighEliteMajor Close your eyes. Think deep relaxing thoughts… That’s what I am doing right now. Having the time of my life on vacation. It’s going to be alright. Coach Self is my main man! In Self I trust. Gotta go, back to the cold ones! It’s basketball. There are no ties. Every game has a winner and a loser. We have won games we should have lost, and we have lost games we should have won. That’s what makes it fun, the unknown! I do appreciate your passion. Looking forward to next years journey!!
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This post is deleted!
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@KansasComet Quite ironic … I am actually headed out of town on vacation. So I will take your advise. I started a thread I can’t really participate in. Maybe that’s a good thing for everyone involved!
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Ya sas! Ti kánis?
Can you keep us informed on where you are and what you are doing? I’m guessing you are still in Greece.
Why Araxos? That isn’t a typical Greek vacation destiny.
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Let me start off by saying nice topic HEM. In some ways I could and do agree with you in some ways. Yet in some ways I can’t. The concept that a team wins championships is going by the way side very quickly. See KU vs Syracuse or KU vs UK in the championship games. Both times KU had the team and yet both times we walked away with heartache and pain. That’s not to say that talent always wins, because it doesn’t. In fact the most talented teams sometimes can’t even make the tournament. Yet you can’t dismiss talent.
After watching the Memphis and KU game again, it was easy to see who had the team and who didn’t. KU played to their strengths, which is what a team does. Even when down and the outcome looked bleak they played their system. Yet if the great Coach Cal wouldn’t have made the biggest boneheaded non move for a head coach. Mario never hits that game tying shot, and KU never wins that championship.
I guess the bigger question is what does HCBS know? That being a system coach as he is in this day age of the one and done won’t cut it. Coach Cal is no great coach. Yet he has a free for all system that allows the talent to excel, and Espn is about to rank him the best head coach in all of college basketball.
A system team is nice. They run the offense the way it’s supposed to be run. They even play defense. Yet when somebody can out jump you, run past you there is not system that can stop that. Just my two cents.
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@drgnslayr Eimai Kala. Araxos is just a reference point. It’s the small airport that I flew into this time. Kyllini Beach was the destination. I also plan to visit Olympia. I am definitely still in Greece. At least another 4 weeks. Not sure where else I am going to at this point. Always seems to be a celebration going on somewhere. Ya sou! (Spouse is 100% Greek).
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@HighEliteMajor Enjoy yourself!
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Interesting thread. I agree with HEM, as a general take on Bill Self’s System (HUGE qualifier right there, that markedly makes KU different from Kentucky). We got about as close to “Kentucky” as you’ll see last season with an NBA#1, and NBA#3, 2 other MickeyDs…and we got treated to one of the worst Bill Self teams we’ve seen, from a statistical standpoint, from a L standpoint, and from the eye-test regarding team-play. Take away Embiid, and we sucked kansas wind (compared to other Bill Self teams).
Why? 1) Because last year’s team clearly proved that a Bill Self team needs more than 5mos together to do all the stuff we expect his team’s to excel at.
- Toughness factor. Needs to be a nasty-swagger guy. Wiggins wasnt that. Ellis definitely not that. Naa lost his mojo, and not a consistent decision-making PG. Embiid had some of that, but then he goes out. Traylor and Greene had some of that, but still finding their skillset and confidence (so inconsistent results). Man, the guys were soft collectively.
But, marvel and behold what Yr2 experience does for a Self roster. Y’all will be pleased, and dont forget guys-in-system itching to contribute (Lucas, Mickelson). I’ll make a prediction: We will NOT have double digit losses this season. Lets see if we can manage 30 wins…(as that’s the Bill Self Standard, and I want to get back to rubbing some opponent noses in that fact!)
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Another take on top talent vs. best teams: Watch this season’s KY, as they continue to add talent, but have a LOT of bigtime Final4 experience coming back…
You know who the 2AD rule will help the most? Calipari and Bill Self, as they’re already A-list recruiters, but then get to “have” that talent for longer than 1 year.
We like what usually happens when Self is given an experienced roster. We like his chances with such teams.
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I wonder how Duke and UNC will do, Duke signed a great talent class, and UNC contends again on paper…The 2AD may give ole’Roy a bit of a requiem. And CoachK’s system ball would benefit from top ranked 2yr players (better than top ranked frosh players).
And didnt Wiggins and Jabari Parker simply re-prove what MJ did? Cant win the big prize without a supporting cast and team play. MJ scored his highest scoring in games his team lost. Started collecting rings once the jordanaires developed. Same lesson from LeBron at Cleveland. One man show cant win it all. Now see Jabari Parker (true next lebron) and his Duke team a 1st round ignominous bounce. Now see Wiggins, scores 41pts in a KU loss, and he couldnt save his team in the Dance either, beat by superior team-play. And the Spurs showed teamplay, while the Heat reminded LBJ of Cleveland, as most of the Heat’s supporting cast faltered…every single one of the Heat guys faltered other than LeBron. Same. Old. Lesson. (in team ball).
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@ralster You did not really call Jabari Parker the “true next LeBron” right?
Personally I don’t like saying anyone is the next Jordan, Kobe, LBJ, etc., but I know there will always be comparisons. But Parker? Maybe offensively…someday, but the guy can’t guard a ham sandwich, while LeBron is regularly on the NBA all defense team.
And isn’t this two summers in a row he’s gotten himself severely out of shape? I think once was due to injury, but could we perhaps be looking at someone who has the same conditioning & fitness issues that Sherron had?
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@icthawkfan316 haha, yes, I should qualify that statement a bit: At 6’8, 240+ and 18yrs old, Jabari looked “more like” Lebron around the rim on Parker’s “good days”. There’s a lot of 6’7-6’8 players out there in college. Consider the contrasts: give me Jabari Parker (potential) over Georges Niang (plateaued) any day. 100% agree about Parker’s lack of defense, compared to Wiggins, who frankly “gets it” on the defensive end.
What impressed me the most about Wiggins is how Wiggins asked to guard Parker in the KU-Duke game, and effectively shut him down, then actually fouled Parker out. Maybe scouts and pro teams saw that quiet professionalism & inner fire we all saw. I keep saying that Wiggins may be a lot like do-it-all-really-well Kawhi Leonard of the Spurs. Probably the best comparo. And Duke didnt have the tools or experienced roster either to adjust to what Wiggins did…nor the time, as it was too late in the game. Stanford, on the other hand, with experienced players, and gamefilm to study all of Wiggy’s college moves, were ready for whatever 19yr old Wiggins usual go-to moves were.
But again, on the offensive end even in that KU-Duke game, gotta admit Parker looked like a real load.
I think LeBron James, in his very first NBA game, scored 25pts, several rbds, and 6assists. So LeBron has set the bar pretty high for any possible comparisons. We will actually see if anybody can truly match up with a beast like LBJ, even at age 19.
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Nice take on Parker. The one thing that makes LeBron unique is his ability to play essentially (and effectively) all positions (maybe not center), something not too many players can do; Magic was the last player capable to play all position but I think LeBron is just better.
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“(Spouse is 100% Greek).”
Excellent! It is a great culture with spectacular food!
So much to see… from that location it is worth a boat ride up to Kerkira (Corfu). I never had a bad time on any of the Greek Islands. The Peloponnese is quite nice (from what I saw of it). The canal at Corinth… Navplion, the old capital city.
Maybe jump on a ferry and head into the Cyclades. Every island has a different flavor and caters to different tourists, too.
I used to go to the islands every two or three years when I lived in Northern Europe. Now… it’s been something like 7 years since my last visit. I’m taking my wife and newborn next summer to the islands… definitely Crete.
Have you tried Retsina yet? It’s pretty smooth these days. Back in the 70s, when Greece’s economy was still aimed at Greeks (instead of tourists) Retsina used to taste exactly like Pine-sol. It was fun watching tourists tasting it and spitting it out while turning purple. I don’t believe you can find the traditional Retsina any longer. All the companies softened down the resinated flavor to make it mild so tourists would enjoy it.
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@drgnslayr I don’t believe I have tried Retsina. I may work up my nerve to try it. In-laws laughed when I brought it up. I enjoy Tsipouro with my beer. It is very good when it is served cold. I have to agree with you the Islands are a sight to see. Will definitely go to Crete before this year’s trip is over.
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I’m so happy for you to have this opportunity!
Crete is really a big island, so leave yourself time to experience it. It feels more like a country apart from Greece. Cretan people are very different from Greek people. Language differs and they are a more-rambunctious people. If you are a nature buff, make sure and plan a walk through the Samaria Gorge… very nice!
I like the southern part of Crete… less tourism because they don’t have an east-west highway, but you can move in those directions often by boat.
So much to see… the Lasithi Plateau is beautiful… you’ll need to rent a car to do Crete the right way. Buses are a big hassle. If you just want a short trip you can bargain with taxis, too. Many of the northern harbor towns are Venetian architecture… quite stunning!
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@drgnslayr how’s your garden? My yard is my island, but it’s fun to hear about your travels.
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Having a decent point guard will help OADs enormously. Having a decent point guard will help the 2,3, and even the 4 year players. Not having good point guard play doomed our senior laden team as well as our OAD team the past two trips to the tournament. Our experience couldn’t overcome poor guard play two years ago, neither could our talented OADs overcome our poor guard play last year. Get us some solid guard play, and we’ll win with OADs and/or experienced players.
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I’m in favor of good PG play…for the public record.
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Garden should be great… but I classify it as only good. Having too many rabbits this year. I’m in full-blown rabbit lock-down now. Here is what I’m doing to repel our furry friends:
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Peeing on the nearby tree.
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Fresh coffee grounds around my plants.
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Now and then throw down a few small pieces of meat (table scraps) around the perimeter of my garden. Any kind of meat or blood is supposed to repel rabbits. Obviously, I don’t want too much or I’ll start attracting other garden friends.
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Spray all plants with a solution including garlic and cayenne pepper.
Today I’ll spray the plants and will be done with all four steps. I hope that does the trick!
I’ve been spoiled before this year. My neighbor has a huge hawk nest in one of her trees and that kept all critters away, but for some reason the hawks didn’t return this year so we have an overflow of rabbits and squirrels. The squirrels wouldn’t allow me to plant flower bulbs this year. They dug them up and then left the bulbs right there at the hole. I guess they didn’t like the taste. So I replanted them and the next day… same thing… they were all dug up!
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