When National Championships Are Won
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I’m guessing you must have bet on Kentucky in that final game, because your premise that it is all about personnel couldn’t bet against a stacked Kentucky team. I’m not sure, but how many McD AAs were on that UCONN roster? Uh… one? Or none?
The story has been out on UCONN even before they hoisted the trophy. They had something to prove and it went back for many of these players two years earlier, because they were denied the invite in March last year. They’d been working towards this last goal ever since.
Even though I’ve been pushing the need for better guards at the 1 and 2 and making UCONN the example for quite a while now, I seriously doubt they would have won that final game (or gotten that far) without motivation going back before the season.
We can always go at this like it doesn’t matter. Hey… we are KU! The world should respect that! Right?
Let’s just take the summer off and see where a few months of practice and some games gets us next March. I wouldn’t hold your breath.
We can start by adjusting our attitudes to HUNGRY, instead of ENTITLED. The ENTITLED attitude is wearing thin, especially with some fans that know it takes more than that.
Next year’s championship game starts NOW!
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@drgnslayr I think UCONN was actually disqualifyed from the post season last year due to acedemic issues?
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I wonder why UConn didn’t have a season like WSU if they were out to avenge anything from the start of the season. They were the reason why my bracket was busted, and I think they got lucky at the end.
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@drgnslayr You don’t think maybe the '12 runner up team had a mission? With TRob coming back after such a tragedy-stricken season the year before? With so many guys finally getting their chance to start & shine after sitting on the bench (Withey & EJ) & redshirting (Releford)? I think that team has to be at least considered to be in the conversation.
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What makes a National Championship team?
It’s complicated.
Probably more than any other sport, the NCAA tournament - a single game elimination format - leaves more opportunity for randomness to influence the winner.
When it comes to isolating factors that are present in a Championship Run, I think there are two big buckets: 1) things you can control, and 2) things you can’t control.
A coach (and the team) probably prefer not to dwell too much on the things you can’t control. But we can spend a bit of time on those things.
In the tournament, the biggest thing you can’t control is who your opponent will be. That turns out to be a pretty significant factor in determining success because it brings into play all the things that they can’t control as well. Plus, we all know about the importance of match ups.
So, to a varying degree, here are some other things that can’t be controlled/predicted (perhaps influenced, but not truly controlled).
• Injuries
• Travel / weather
• suspensions, other discipline or team dynamics
• the media
• the environment around the athletes
• actual strength of schedule
• the player-rotation for the opposing team
• many other things…
A good team does the reasonable thing-- it focuses on the things it can control: • the player-rotation for your team
• style of play
• athletic training, stretching, conditioning
• nutrition / diet
• schedule
• many other things.
Sometimes the uncontrollable things have a positive effect on the team and other times, a negative effect.
Yes-- UCONN had something to play for. So did McDermott in his final season at Creighton. So did KU when T-Rob’s mom died. So did Louisville when Kevin Ware was injured.
Some won, some lost. I’m not sure how to correlate.
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Give me:
High foundations
Competitive greatness
MUA at the 3 impact positions–PG, one wing, center
3 40% trey dingers–two starters, one off the bench
a 4 that can lock down and out rebound their 4, not a scorer
a rim protector 5 that can rebound and hedge defend
2 Long and strong back ups at 4 and 5 that guard and board and dish pain
8 man rotation
Good health
No woman problems
Insight
Cunning
A Pair on each guy
ORDER 15 RINGS
Repeat
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Sure… it was the team after… 2013… all 4 and 5 year seniors and BMAC that underachieved.
2012 was awesome! And we made it to the finals without a single McD’s AA!
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@KUSTEVE What would you say about the 2008 season, when Self put 3 “non-point guards” (combo guards) in charge of the point?
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Comment at large: People just stop with the Jacque Vaughn yearning. By gone era. Everytime someone brings up Jacque Vaughn “pure” PGs it makes me cringe for the dear fellow Jayhawk, as they simply have let 10yrs of Bill Self pass without understanding what he is trying to do, and what he always recruits at the 1 and 2 guard positions. Believe what y’all want. If your mind’s eye cannot see and understand the recruiting and the concepts at play in Self’s system of basketball, then what can anyone say? (Sorry, I’m just flat tired of the perpetual misunderstanding on Self’s guard requirements.)
Newsflash: Even Roy Williams, yes ‘ole Roy’, has now gone to a scoring-type lead guard…So even the Roy-era doesnt exist in Roy’s own current program.
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What type of guards were at the 1 and 2 position for UConn and Kentucky?
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@ralster What exactly is HCBS trying to do in your mind is the real question? I don’t follow the “Jacque Vaughn yearning” quote but ok. Self and company have recruited and whiffed on a number of true PG’s over the last 10 years so he has actually been forced to use combo guards. I am sure he would have loved to have Smart or some other high quality PG running our offence for the last 10 years. He has to use the recruiting pieces he actually inks so if he has to use 2-3 combo guards to run the point then that’s how he rolls. Point is our combo guards have been just as good if not better than the PG’s available in the sub ESPN top 100’s that would still be available after we have held out for that ESPN number one PG in the country all year.
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National championships are won in October. You get to lift the trophy in April, but titles are won in October in empty gyms shooting jumpers, and on lonely tracks running wind sprints, and on unforgiving hills doing lunges. They’re won at 6am during Hell week and at 4pm in the weight room. You win championships with all the work you put in long before the Fieldhouse fills up for late night.
You win titles when nobody is looking, when your opponents are sleeping, when your competitors are resting, when your rivals are taking the day off.
You win titles with the work you put in when no one is there to applaud you, or congratulate you, or tell you how great you are and how hard you’re working and how much the reward will be.
Titles are won inside the heart of every player on the team deciding in themselves that nothing matters more than winning - not individual accolades, not minutes, not shots, nothing.
Titles are won in October. It just takes six months to lift the trophy.
And the hardest working Jayhawk is firmly entrenched into the end of the bench. I feel sorry for AW3…
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@dylans Me too.
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@Statmachine Your first sentence: “What exactly is HCBS trying to do in your mind is the real question?” Nope. You just proved you dont know what Self is trying to do, by asking me this question, didnt you? Already addressed that in multiple quotes straight from Self, in past posts I’ve made. How about you give your mind a crash course on Self’s own beliefs by checking my past quotes of Self, or reading his own book. Or find the time to attend a coaching camp he puts on (like I did), and ask the man himself, in person, his philosophy on guard play…(like I did before the 2008 season). I then talked to Ronnie Chalmers and Russell Robinson (in person) about what Self said conceptually, and they confirmed all what he was wanting out of the guards. And he calls them combo guards, one of whom he designates to “run the point” duties.
If your time-constraints need a Cliff-notes version, here’s the spoon-feed: Self wants scoring-threats from ALL 5 POSITIONS…he will likely never have a guy on the roster that is a pass-only non-scoring type of PG. He’s just never recruited that in 10yrs at KU, or 3yrs at Illinios. Self wants the guards to be competent and adept at e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.
Jacque Vaughn was a limited player in that context. You Roy people want a better example: How about Kirk Hinrich? Bigger, more athletic, great scorer, great defender, and ran the offense very efficiently. Kirk would have thrived under Self also, as he has everything Self wants in a guard. Understand ALL the qualities Hinrich had (has), and you will understand what type of guard-play Self wants. Resist the human tendency to ‘boil it all down’ to 1 thing, or something simplified. There’s more to it. Which is why various guards under Self have had varying degrees of success. Not everybody can do every-thing. Get it? But thats not going to stop Self from trying, especially after a couple of Final 4 runs and a NC. And what he did at Illinois.
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@ralster I agree with everything you said regarding Self’s guard philosophy. But…
I’m not sure what spawned your Jacque Vaughn rant either. It isn’t anywhere on this thread other than you bringing it up. The only place on any recent thread his name came up was in a conversation slayr & I were having on another thread as possibly the last great PG to wear a Jayhawk uniform. Aaron Miles name was also thrown out there, and slayr ultimately said his favorite all around guard was Hinrich. My point of view was that Collins was probably the closest we’ve had to “great” for awhile, and had his senior year not been marred by the UNI loss we would all likely consider him as great. Maybe some people do consider him great, or they might consider RussRob great, or Tyshawn. I personally think those were all very good PGs, but would stop short of bestowing the title of “great” on them.There wasn’t necessarily any “yearning” going on, other than our yearning to have another great one.
The other thing that I might have a disagreement with is your characterization of Vaughn. It is true Vaughn was pass-first point guard, but he wasn’t a pass only PG. Consider Russell Robinson, who most posters (myself included and I’m guessing you as well) consider to be one of Self’s better combo guards. Now stack him up against Vaughn. RussRob finished his career averaging 7.1 ppg. His high was 9.3 his sophomore year. Vaughn averaged 9.6 ppg, with a high of 10.9 ppg his junior year. So not a whole lot of difference there, as neither were prolific scorers. Vaughn shot a significantly higher percentage than RussRob, both from 2pt FGs (49.6% vs. 46.6%) and from 3pt range (38.3% vs. 32.4%). So when you say Vaughn was a limited player in the context of being a scoring threat, I would argue RussRob was even more limited in that respect. Now, where the two greatly differ is that Vaughn was extremely adept at getting his teammates involved (assist numbers dwarf RussRob’s) while RussRob was the far superior defender (one of the elite IMO).
I don’t know, just seems like you kind of flew off the handle for no reason about this one.
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@icthawkfan316 we also wondered about him for a coach.
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@ralster Your direct, first hand knowledge is awesome. It’s actually about as good as it gets.
Do I have this right?
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A point guard that can shoot, thus be the “shooting guard” or the 2, is thus a combo guard. He’s a combo guard because he can serve the point guard function and the 2 guard function.
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A shooting guard that can handle the ball like a point guard is also a combo guard because he can serve both the shooting guard function and the 1 guard function.
Please let me know if I have oversimplified, which I have a tendency to do. Is it this simple?
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@HighEliteMajor I’ll bet the functions are different too. When we have two guards who can handle the ball out there, they share (more or less) the ball handling duties, so there are “combo guard functions”.
If that’s true, the corollary is that it’s not just a recruiting philosophy (pegs), but a playing strategy (holes). Which gets back to the discussion about whether you fit the pegs to the holes or vice versa.
I seem to remember that at Illinois Self even had 3 combo guards and not a real wing: am I exaggerating?
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National Championships are won over the summer, the team is built, everyone knows their roles and how they fit in.
In the fall, the coaches use what the players learned over the summer and fine tune it.
In the winter the coaches tweak it and make it work.
In March it all comes together, a years worth of work, friendship, coaching, and playing.
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@icthawkfan316 Mine is a “final straw”/“beat that topic one-more-time” type of frustration…this recurring discussion about “Jacque-Vaughn-type-PG” has been going on for years, including threads on the old site (not just here). --AND I’ve talked to many, many Jayhawk alums/fans in the past 2 or 3 yrs that truly do “yearn” for a JVaughn-type distributivePG. That’s why it’s a comment at large, aimed at no one except the JVaughn-concept lovers…they know who they are. Even when cussin’ and discussin’ the Hawks in person, they actually bring up JVaughn’s name as THE example. Why ‘frustrated’? Because they dont even know their current coach’s philosophy. Because I dont see Self ever recruiting a limited skill-set player like Jacque Vaughn in TODAY’S game (since about the last 10yrs, we’ve seen nationally, and Self had this combo thing figured back in 2000-2001). I saw the disrespect that other teams showed to JVaughn’s offensive ability, and that really stung at the time (was enrolled at KU at the time Vaughn played). It’s one of the most insidious types of insults you can give an opponent is when you “let them shoot” (because you know he can’t). Yes, I can remember Jacque hitting a 3 one time, but he was not known for that. One awful memory is of TV announcers seeing Vaughn dribble from the top of the key, facing a tight 2-3 zone, and he dribbled to the FT line, and they were still sagging off of him–> announcer says: “…well they are just daring Vaughn to shoot now…”, and Vaughn had enough lack of confidence, that he passed it out to a wing. Wouldnt/couldnt shoot a pullup 10-12ft J? An embarrassing moment, for anybody thats played this game and has any competetiveness.
@icthawkfan316, I do recall Vaughn was great at getting quick transition layups & backdoor cuts, so his 2pt % certainly was helped by those high% 2pt finishes at the rim. I’m certainly not dogging him personally, as he did give us some great moments. I also seem to recall his 3% improved while he was here. He certainly wasnt a laughable offense player like Dogus Balbay.
And Self is pretty diplomatic, and will always try to have nice things to say about Vaughn publicly. But many of our threads’ themes have involved around guardplay (improvement-needed!) or recruiting to that end…and you can bet that Self is busy trying to recruit talented, well-rounded guards.
Look at Self’s 3 most recent guard recruits: Connor Frankamp, an absolute scoring machine background, and we are seeing he is pretty good in his A:T ratio, in his minutes-played. My concern is his physical size limitations. I hope he blossoms, but dont know if he can gain 30lbs on his frame to simply equal Frank Mason’s 190lbs? I, today, have a fellow WilliamsFund alum speculating that Connor may transfer (WSU is the buzz?) Frank Mason, a Sherron-like attacker, on-ball defender, and a historically good scorer at his high school. Scored 50+ in high school game. Took over a game against another college blueblood on a big stage (Duke, MadisonSqGarden), which tells us alot about Frank Mason, to balance out with the frosh mistakes we also saw. Devonte Graham, a 6’2 physical all-around combo guard, who scored 56pts in a h.s. tourney game, 40% 3gun, 5:1 A:T ratio, and known as a dedicated on-ball defender. Self cannot stop himself from recruiting scoring-capable, athletic guards.
@icthawk316 mentions Russell Robinson’s stats…which is a story in of itself: 6’1, 200lb 4star “combo” guard, 22ppg scorer, top30 player, who Self famously/infamously forces to play ‘distributive’ lead guard, after Chalmers failed at that. Both Russell and Chalmers were in MAJOR doghouses, with Russell almost transferring…as he so correctly realized that without showing ‘scoring’, his shot at the NBA diminished significantly. Think about that angle for a moment: We are bigmanU, not so much guard-to-NBA-univ. Our only guard to stick in the NBA is Chalmers in the Self era. Selby should have been the other one, but absolutely made the wrong decision to pass on Yr2–who knows if that hurts our recruiting, you got to wonder…as we sit here wanting better guardplay, and always hoping we can recruit better quality guards, not #91ranked guys… To his immense credit, RussRob agrees to subvert his own offensive ‘looks’, do what the team needs, which was set up 4 guys in double figs almost every night. But after RussRob, it was Sherron, then Tyshawn and Self had to allow those relentless attackers to do what they do best…maybe he has modified his approach on guardplay even more, as he saw what immense “pressure” an attacking guard put on the opponent. Modified even more to the offensive-minded/more-scoring side of the equation for a lead guard.
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@ralster So what you are saying is you read a book and attended a camp 6 years ago. I will no longer challenge your infinite wisdom again. And please tell me why anyone would sift through all of your posts to figure out the “Jacque Vaughn yearning” rant you were on that no one on this thread had posted about?
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@Statmachine Hey that’s funny sarcasm…but now for a “stats” guy, didnt you lose the details pretty quick: Yeah, I said I read “a” book, but it was Self’s own book (details…), and that wasnt until 2010…but sure, ok, I “attended a camp” where I talked to Self & his lead guard personally (details…) 3 yrs prior…and the book summarized what I watched in KU’s guard play for the 3yrs after my conversations, with him (details…) about his concepts. Umm…and that camp was 7yrs ago (instead of 6)…
His concepts, my fellow hawk, not mine. I might believe in them & think they work, but its all Self’s ideas. Now this is the USofA, and you absolutely do not have to listen or believe anything that anyone tries to tell you. Free country, believe whatever you want. Reminds me of the chimp who refuses to believe “the sky is blue”, even covering his eyes to avoid what’s obvious, eh? Or, maybe I should apologize, as its only ‘obvious’ to me because of the above details…
(no malice, just a point/counterpoint on Self’s system based on my understanding of it…)
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Perhaps a better summary of my perspective: It seems Self has stuck to his guns regarding wanting it “all” out of his guards…I see him as having stuck to his plan & ideals–He is still recruiting to meet those requirements and expectations. The variability we see is simply how good/not good various players get at doing all the things he wants as well as he wants.
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Here’s a great idea for someone, maybe I will do it for Jayhawk Nation’s benefit: Call up Self when he is doing Hawk Talk at SaltyIguana (or be at the restaurant live) and ask him directly: “Do you still believe in the combo guard concept as you outlined in 2005-6, of recruiting multiple scoring/ball-handling guards, and expecting them to do it all, on both ends of the floor?”
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@ralster I certainly remember Vaughn as seeming more timid, so I looked again at the stats to see if maybe his shooting was at a lower volume (meaning perhaps his 3pt shooting was inflated because he was extremely selective). However, that didn’t seem to be the case. Both players averaged 2.2 attemps/game over the course of a 4 year career. Vaughn making 105 of 274, RussRob making 96 of 296. Vaughn also seemed to be very good at penetrating the lane. Not Sherron good, but I have a few memories of him driving to the rim and scoring that way. And of course, he was very adept at driving and creating scoring opportunities for others.
To your point about RussRob’s stats, it almost seems to be a counter argument to the whole Self guard philosophy you are advocating here. On the one hand, you are saying (or Self has said and you are relaying) that we want do it all guards. That we want to be able to score from all 5 positions. Ok, I’m with you. But why then would Self tell RussRob, who is coming out of high school as a legitimate scoring threat (22 ppg, top 30 player), to subvert his own looks? Why wouldn’t Self have cultivated that scoring prowess out of RussRob at the lead guard position?
If I were to hazard a guess here, it would be that RussRob’s offensive game did not translate as well to the college game as hoped, at least not as well as the other two perimeter players he was teamed with - Chalmers & Rush. Perhaps there just weren’t enough looks to go around, so RussRob was asked to defer to the higher percentage play. This too may be the case of Vaughn, who played with even greater offensive players (in my opinion anyway) - Pierce & Lafrentz - and thus deferred to them.
All this is just a little devil’s advocate on my part, to perhaps challenge the perception that Vaughn, more of a true point guard, couldn’t flourish in Self’s system. That maybe his skill set wasn’t as limited as we remember, at least not in comparison to someone (in this case RussRob) whom we generally acknowledge as a Self combo guard success.
And I do know that there is a lot of talk about the desire for improved guard play on this board and others. I myself have said that poor PG play has severely limited the past two teams. I don’t yearn for Vaughn anymore than I yearn for Collins or senior year Tyshawn or Aaron Miles, or even Adonis Jordan. Or yes, Russell Robinson. Just someone better than what we’ve had recently.
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@drgnslayr I take your ridiculously defensive retort to mean that I got you good. it’s ok - we all project all kinds of nonsense concerning our team. Maybe if the team would simply listen to you, you could talk some sense into them, so they won’t feel “entitled”.
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@ralster You can call the radio show and prove that you were right to your self but realize you should have asked a better question if you actually got a hold of him. I do enjoy your posts along with most other posters on this site. I am just rousing you a bit so please calm down! I don’t want any bad blood on this site I really like it here!
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@Statmachine It’s all good. On the flip side of this whole discussion, really we’re all just watching what Self does with his recruits, year in and year out. Heck, Self may throw a major playstyle changeup into the gameplan some year, thus evolving his own concepts in another direction…& making my take on him into ‘old news’.
My logic on these boards usually is ‘what is Self doing or expecting’ vs. some other respected posters who dive into the world of ‘what Self could be doing or should be doing’…I’d personally feel uncomfortable trying to formulate what Self ‘should’ do, as his read on his team and the plays it can run well is a real-time coach’s feel, and not just some conceptual framework (like he outlined the few years back) idea. Losses to me are ‘execution fails’, as Im busy thinking about whatever concept(s) didnt get served well enough to get the win, as I watch & ponder KU games.
Hoping for a better '14-15 season. RCJH
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@ralster “Hoping for a better '14-15 season.” The Media is saying we are in for another really tough Non conference schedule again lol. I actually think 2 years of this type of scheduling is going to benefit our guys. Learning how to win close games is what separates the men from the boys. Our guys need to work on becoming closers by March so we can take care of business.
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Some of you gents are over my head on in depth analysis- I sometimes just skim through because over the years I realize I might learn- but have nothing to add.
I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU KEEP IT CIVIL. I am not Civil Hawk, but I appreciate him/her coming forward and as a credit to this board I can’t remember a time since late in the season Civil had to show up.
RCJH
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@drgnslayr Im excited for Graham (sp?) Kid seems like a baller. Great handles, instincts, good shooter. etc. But will that translate to Div 1 hoops early on? I dunno. My guess is Mason or Conner starts. Either way, we just got better at the point. We havent had a good point guard at KU since Sherron. I mean that. Tyshawn is more of a 2, so was EJ, so was Naa.
My thing with the championships is Im not sure if Coach Self can win it all without a bunch of Upperclass experienced talent around him. Im not bashing the guy. I wouldnt have any other coach at KU.
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@jaybate 1.0 I think we will have most if not all of that this season Jaybate. All of the tangible factors anyways. Im hoping that Mickelson can surprize us all giving us an extra weapon at Center. Maybe even contending for a starting spot alongside Alexander at the 4?
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“And the hardest working Jayhawk is firmly entrenched into the end of the bench. I feel sorry for AW3…”
Me, three!
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“I take your ridiculously defensive retort to mean that I got you good. it’s ok - we all project all kinds of nonsense concerning our team. Maybe if the team would simply listen to you, you could talk some sense into them, so they won’t feel “entitled”.”
You’re right. You did “get me.”
You touched a nerve I have about Jayhawk basketball going back to my days as a Jayhawk student in the 70s. There were a lot of frustrating years for Jayhawk fans to endure, and a big part of that stemmed into an overall feeling of entitlement. The idea was we didn’t have to “slouch” to the standards of being scrappy and hustle because our destiny as a known basketball entity was chiseled in stone.
I’d like to read a story right NOW about remaining and new players texting each other and doing what they can on their own right NOW to lift their games for next year. The further out from the season when these guys commit focus and effort towards next season, the better off they will be when the season comes. They’ll feel like they have “more to lose” because they’ve focused on this for a longer period.
So, yes, @KUSTEVE , you got me… but I still have my goat!
BTW: I’ve had an entire week of shoveling composted animal waste from our zoo… so I smell like poo and probably have a bit of extra sensitivity. Finally finished my garden expansion project late last night. No more shoveling giraffe poo!
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I’m hiding a lot of optimism I have building inside me for Devonte. I want to see him have to prove himself.
What really got me hooked on his game was watching tape on him from this past year and then from years before. He advanced and matured so much this past year… and his game lifted so much in just 12 months.
What if he even lifts his game 1/2 that much again between now and next season?
I hope he will be as good as we think he will be and he will stick it out for 4 complete years of college hoops. If he would, imagine what he will bring in 4 years?
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@drgnslayr I guess we don’t need to feel sorry for Andrew White III any more. Andrew White III announces his transfer Class act and I wish him the best at whatever he does outside of Missouri.
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@drgnslayr Are you serious about Zoo dung? Kinda cool, what zoo are you by? I’ve got cow crap for days down here (SW Kansas). I tell my farmers to use manure when they can, but it’s not always practical.
The best way to handle animal dung for fertilizer in town is to compost it in a pile you turn over several times throughout the year. Composted manure won’t smell, but looses much of the nitrogen as it gasses off in the ammonia form. The phos is not highly soluble (so it will stay put pretty well). For field use you still need to pile the manure to age it so it’s not so “hot”. You don’t want to burn the plants roots off.
You probably already know all this as you seem to be an avid gardener (judging by past posts). I’m just cranked up and ready for spring and my garden too.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
