PG options
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Does this mean that we need more help with the bigs than the PG or is Turner, a likely one and done, that much better?
Is Devonte Graham last season’s Tarik Black, i.e. the last half way decent player left and this is why he is garnering all the attention? I understand that after the season is over, nothing much changes in the rankings, but Graham was not on any top 100 list; I saw one site that compiles the average ranking from all sources and he is the 170s, and most publications have him as a 2 or 3 star. Are we making too big of a deal for a player that normally KU would not be interested or is he a diamond in the rough and next season’s Embiid?
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I wouldn’t sweat Turner (should know by the end of the week, anyway)
@konkeyDong Turner has said he will make his decision sometime after the Jordan Brand Classic, which is this Friday 4/18. Given this, I’m not sure we’ll know this week (as that would mean he’s either going to announce after the game or the day after. Seems unlikely). Regardless, no one should expect a decision before then.
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@konkeyDong I had heard we’re out on Brunson now, meaning we decided to jump out. The Katz corner show a while back, I think. Now KU isn’t listed on ESPN. But we’ll see.
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Graham isn’t going to be this years savior at PG. He’s what almost 2 years older than most 2014 recruits and he was the 3rd best player on his Brewster team behind Copeland (going to Georgtown) and Terrell (going to Oklahoma State). Big schools are involved because he is the sole remaining talent remaining at the PG spot.
Plus he’s been a lean to NC State since Capel accused them off tampering for his services after he had a good senior season. He was a fringe top 100 kid in his original class and now is considered in the top 50 area by some after a strong season this year which saw his prep school win the championship. He should be a considerably high ranked player with almost 2 more years of maturity to the average high school senior.
I think he is checking KU out to see if NC State isn’t where he should go. NC State has Cat Barber as their starter after Lewis left for Butler. He will be a role player at either school, either Barber’s back up or fighting 3 other PG’s at Kansas who already have a year or 3 years in the program. I would prefer Self to develop what he has especially Mason and Franny as both of them provide different elements to the game.
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I’m glad to see Self on the hunt for another PG. Yes, we have Frank and Conner, both respectable players in their own right. But this is Self saying we have to start expecting more from our PG play. He should have thought that way years ago… good chance we would have a couple more NCs by now.
2013… I still can’t believe we didn’t win a NC with that team of seasoned players and one of the best shot blockers in college history.
I was very critical on Self this year, and I believe rightly so… but I’m feeling more optimism again. He’s proven before that he can adjust his strategy, and I think he is doing it again.
A big goal for next year is to have our 1 and 2 guards play with lots of energy. Be able to beat a press and double-teams… and be able to apply a press and double-team well.
Even if we recruit another guard… Frank and Conner will still be big for us next year. We should have 4 solid guards to fill the 1 and 2. We should run lots of backcourt pressure and we’ll need fresh legs for 40 minutes of basketball!
It is (finally) time we win backcourt play! We’ve dominated the post for a long time… and now we need to do both! The final piece to the puzzle on Self-ball is in sight. More important… it is within sight of Self!
I’m going to have me an awesome summer full of optimism! Not just because we have good talent coming back and good talent coming in… more because I think Self is realizing the need to have stronger play from his backcourt!
Now go get us another guard, Coach!
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@JayHawkFanToo OMG, I totally left out Kirk Hinrich! One of my absolute favorite Jayhawks…he was KU’s “Ron Baker”. Seriously great all-around player, arrived able to play D, which only helped a Roy team, and could drive, dish, defend, and dunk: 4 D’s = A+ rated KU guard. The 4 D’s are exactly why Kirk still plays in the NBA, along with his 6’3 size.
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@HighEliteMajor Good points, love this discussion on guards. Here’s another example of a ‘combo’ guard, where the BETTER descriptor is ‘complete’ guard: Ron Baker. Man, that kid can ball. He has high bball IQ, he is team-first balanced with aggression. He shoots 43% treys. He defends. He drives. He can dunk. And he runs the team when VanVleet is out with a great a:t ratio.
I think people hear “combo” guard and think, OK, jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. I go back to the competence thing: Man, this is heady stuff to be able drive, dish, assist, defend–> not everybody can do it. Deandre Kane is another example of a ball-handling complete player.
Maybe the biggest reality is not every Self recruit will attain RussRob/Chalmers/Collins level (and those 3 were on the same team!). So my suspense is watching if Self can multiple guards “competent” in the same season. I’m sure this season’s guardplay (for variety of reasons) absolutely drove Self nuts. I bet Cindy heard more red-faced cussing in pvt after KU games than a good Oklahoma girl ever wanted to hear…lol!
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This Devonte Graham kid sounds like a 3-4 year player. 6’2 guards, unranked (translate: “no hype”…), dont just bolt to the NBA after a year.
But whatever his ranking…there is a reason Bill Self and Billy Donovan are on a crusade for Graham…
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Another thought about the guard play, and this came to me after playing ball today for over 2hrs, and trying to relentlessly drive/cross/fade/pullupJ score it (because the 3s were brick-city…) --> Playing basketball IS about doing ALL the things we talked about–all the time, everytime we play this game. Why would Self be wrong to think he can teach and expect a critical level of competence in all areas being achieved? Why not? Sure, one kid may take a bit longer than another kid to grasp it (like RussRob vs. Tyshawn), but when they play steadily and smart, but also explode with athleticism, its a beautiful thing to watch.
Self just needs to keep plugging away, get his own system & product back to what he wants it to be.
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“and this came to me after playing ball today for over 2hrs…”
I’m so completely envious! Wish I could still do that!
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@ralster I think your points are spot on and the answer to your questions are that Self isn’t wrong to think he can teach and expect a level of competence in all areas. This is why we say it takes 2-3 years for a kid to learn Self’s system. But your point and Self’s success will require a kid to stay 2-3 years. If that happens, except for Tharpe, there’s a high probability the kid will achieve exactly what Self expects or wants.
We come full circle to all the other discussions. Self’s system then is not for OADs. If a kid expects to be OAD, Self’s system is not the system to consider. But, what do you tell a kid like Wiggins? Sorry kid, you’re OAD. My system isn’t for you? Also, if you really believe that about Self, then are we all willing to wait 2-3 years or 4 for that team to develop into what Self wants? Either to get bounced after waiting, working, and playing together for the last 2-3 years or just maybe the luck strikes Self once again to win another NC? I’m not sure. It’s a big dilema. Self has to decide. I think Self was a bit surprised when Wiggins announced for KU. He said a number of times after Wiggins committed they were surprised. I don’t think Self really thought KU had much of chance for an OAD like Wiggins.
Lastly, throw in yet another scenario such as Embiid. We all agree Embiid had 2-3 year project written all over him. But, he thrived too well in Self’s system and became a late OAD too. I don’t think Self really expected Embiid to be OAD at all. I think Self thought Embiid would be around at least another year.
So, I come back to my comment above. It’s all about the player or recruit. It’s not Self’s system. It’s how the recruit adapts to and allows Self’s system to grow on them. I think Selden and Ellis are going to be great examples or poster children for Self’s system. I would look ahead at Oubre and Alex too. They may go OAD, but again, Self system will serve them well if they stay at least another year. Turner will fall into the same situation too.
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@truehawk93 Good post, and actually you made a golden statement: Its all about the player, or recruit. Yep. Its up to them to buy-in to the recruiting, come, spend the time, show work ethic, be a teammate, etc. And possess the right balance of bball IQ, make players around him better, yet still show timely aggression. High athleticism definitely helps also.
I honestly think Self needs to decide just how hard he pursues the true presumed/announced OAD. See HEM’s thread today about “just say no to OADs”–I agree totally with that. The most unpredictable thing is a kid like Rush, actually staying for Yr2, then gets hurt, and comes back for Yr3. Losing Wiggins hurt because he is an uber athlete and a 110% class-act. What a defender. Losing Embiid almost hurts more, because that kid is special. An ultra-rare talent. We may not land a 7footer like him again in my lifetime! Seriously, when is the last time we had a guy like him? Cole? Wilt? And Embiid was only a half-baked or qtr-baked “product”. I almost thought the injury thing would cause BigBiid to come back, but it didnt. It didnt stop Selby from leaving either, and Josh really hurt himself with that decision. So much of it rides on these kids we bring in. No team without the right kids, doing the right things, all with the right frame of mind…and the right experience level. And after 10yrs, that means beyond frosh experience level. Which then logically, throws water on the whole OAD concept, when considered in Bill Self’s system.
The system without question will have a major impact on what the kid is able to show. Calipari has built his system around maximizing potential and on-court performance with freshman. Self’s system is different. As is Coach K’s. See Duke’s young team get bounced very quickly.
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Seriously, when is the last time we had a guy like him? Cole? Wilt?
@ralster Because JoJo is so young and raw, it will take some time before we can fairly evaluate his talent.
I never saw Wilt and Lovellette at KU; both were before my time. So I can’t compare those two big men.
But based on what I saw: Cole is not at the same level. Manning is the only player I’ve seen that Embiid compares with. I actually think Embiid looked better as a freshman than Danny, but it’s tough to compare as they were asked to do different things.
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@konkeyDong Which I guess reinforces one of my criticisms of Bill’s offense (which you asked for) — Bill doesn’t make the 3pt shot part of his offense.
Thanks.
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I look at point guards the same way I look at QBs, you should recruit one for every incoming class.
You don’t know who will materialize into your system the way you want.
You don’t know about injuries.
You don’t know who will transfer out.
It’s a position with too much importance not to have one or two capable backups. It’s a position that determines the way your team plays, fast or slow, solid D or help D. They are a leader on the floor and off, they are teachers on the court an extension of the head coach.
SO why recruit one every three years, when you should be recruiting one in every incoming class.
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@JRyman I agree with your general sentiment of the importance of the position and the importance of having one or two capable back-ups, but I don’t think the idea of recruiting a PG every year is very plausible, or at least not actually signing one every year. First of all, scholarship restrictions and needs at other positions can derail that strategy. Second, I think that the strategy would lead to bringing in a very low quality of player eventually. Say there are already two capable PGs on the team - who do you think Self is going to be able to recruit if the player sees 2 or 3 guys already in front of him? Also, as has been pointed out on this thread, there are only 4 PGs listed in the top 60 for next year’s recruiting class. We are in on one of those. For whatever reason - lack of interest by one of the parties perhaps - we are not in on the other 3. So if we miss on the one, how far down should we go in the talent pool to ensure we bring in a PG in that class?
What I can see is recruiting combo guards every year, or a combination of a combo guard one year, a guy who is solely a PG the next, etc. If you do that, you are still trying to get players in with good ball handling and floor leadership skills, but they might have to play minutes at the 2 instead of actually running the point. In this scenario, you have doubled the likelihood of minutes being available to recruits. And you are recruiting for multiple positions, which gives you added flexibility in recruiting.
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Thanks for commenting on my analogy of client/server vs. multinodal internet. At first, I just thought about it as a metaphor, but the more I think about it the more I think computer networks may actually be a good model for thinking strategically, tactically and operationally about offensive basketball.
In all networks you are looking a bit flow rates of the system. About certain subsets of the network using certain amounts of resources and other parts of the network using other amounts of resources and about varying loading.
Then there are the concepts of distributive computing and parallel processing that might be robust concepts for thought about offensive basketball.
Offensive basketball, especially the way Self plays it, is about optimally redistributing system resources as the opponent “adjusts” to what is being done; i.e., as the opponent varies available bandwidth for one player (i.e., one node) and so gives greater band width to another and so on.
I haven’t really thought this through much beyond what I am relating here, but if offensive basketball were thought about in this way different kinds of statistics might begin to be measured that better capture team’s abilities to redistribute their team resources to meet adjustments, and differing types of opponents, and so coaches might begin to think more systematically about how to make the tweaks to enable the redistributions, and might think more systematically about the kinds of skill sets a player has and how they mesh (or fail to) with other nodes (players).
I know this may sound bizarre to many, but I have a hunch that a basketball team modeled this way could then be subjected to a modified finite element analysis that would find the weak and strong dynamical links among the multimodal system that is a basketball team.
Likewise, a defensive coach could look at the same offensive statistics, especially strong and weak dynamic linkages among the nodes/players and find weak points to attack.
Imagine being able to do what I am conceptualizing here and plug in various recruits in a simulation to see which one produces more net benefit and which recruit produces less as preparation to decide which prospect to sign.
Great coaches probably do a lot of this by “feel” and heuristics developed through years of experience, just as great engineers and designers used to be able to build great cars, or trucks, or planes, before computer modeling. And the feel and heuristics are still important to engineering and design. But computerized simulations allow testing of ideas and exploration of systems to find points that can be altered to optimize the system.
I have a hunch that right now this could be done.
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[http://kckingdom.com/2014/04/12/recruiting-rumors-devonte-graham-garnering-interest-kansas-jayhawks/](link url)
I certainly hope Self and Co are all over this article and have a plan. This article is misleading and if a recruit or recruits see this, it would leave them up to speculation. Maybe there’s something to this article. Does anyone think Self is all out on Graham to take the remaining paper at KU? Or do you think Self is still all out on Turner too? If so, Self has to have a transfer in the works to be after both recruits. Self is either going after both and hoping to land both or hoping to land one of them. Or he is aiming to get both because he will have the room. I believe Self is all out on both players and has a transfer in the works, sorry for the transfer, but it’s just ncaa basketball.
And wasn’t Turner quoted at one point by saying he wanted to play with a really good pg? If so, the sly fox HCBS is giving both recruits a great deal to think about. If I were a pg, I’d kill to play with this team. If I were a big man like Turner and knew enough about Graham, I’d give him a shot at playing as my pg.
Stay tuned Jayhawk Nation because this recruiting is getting good.
I would think Turner is calling or has called the coaches on his list. I think he’s made a decision. It’s April 16 and he’s making an announcement at the JBC April 18. We’ve had some good luck with twitter announcements and MCD’s AA game announcements and even these other game announcements. Cliff was our first hat trick announcement.
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And wasn’t Turner quoted at one point by saying he wanted to play with a really good pg?
@truehawk93 If that’s the case, it wouldn’t surprise me if he picked SMU from the teams on his list. They have maybe the best freshman PG in the recruiting class in Emmanuel Mudiay. That or Duke with Tyus Jones.
The point being, I don’t think Graham is going to be the one that entices Turner to pick KU.
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@icthawkfan316 Thats the tid bit that keeps me up at night, but I wouldn’t be as defeated if it were SMU. However, I’ll barf if it’s dook. I still think KU is strong and may be why Self is working so diligently with a pg. Turner “may” have told Self, “I really want a good pg coach. I’m concerned about your pg play right now.” Self and Co will work this and will win both or with one. Your post raises some interesting scenarios now. Maybe we get both. Maybe Turner has made a decision and Self knows it based on the pg thing. Or maybe we have Turner and Self wants to give the big man a good pg.
Haha…If I had a choice to play with Mudiay or Jones v. any other pg, that would be an easy selection. He recently saw them too.
We’ll find out soon.
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If Turner wants to play in the B12, the only real choice he has is Kansas. I believe this is the big question to answer. Does Turner want to play B12 basketball?
Kansas owns the B12 for the last 10 years. It may take a while, but go back through those 10 years and look at all the extreme talent that didn’t play for Kansas and left the B12 without ever winning it.
One quick browse of those players and who comes up first on my list? That would be Kevin Durant, Turner’s hero.
Does Turner think he can do what Durant couldn’t? Why would he think that?
Here is what Durant did at Texas:
25.8 PPG, 1.9 BPG, 1.9 SPG, 1.3 APG, 11.1 RPG. He shot 47.3% from the field, including 40.4% from trey, and he was 81.6% from the FT line.
Those insane numbers weren’t good enough to win the B12.
Picking Texas would be settling for a second, third, fourth or lower finish in the B12. And if he stays more than a year in D1… more of the same.
And how about looking down the road to March… Texas has never won the big prize. The last time they made the FF was 2003, and before that you have to go back to 1947! Texas, simply put, is just not a March team!
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@drgnslayr Griffin, Beasley, Perry Jones III, DeAndre Kane, Marcus Smart, LeMarcus Aldridge, Daniel Gibson…Along with Durant.
There are more, but those are just some for starters.
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Not finished yet: Self said KU could still sign one or two players in recruiting. The Jayhawks are in the running for Myles Turner, 6-foot-11 from Euless, Texas, and Devonte Graham, 6-2 out of Raleigh, N.C. Graham announced he’s down to KU, Providence, North Carolina State, Virginia and Virginia Tech.
Of next year’s team, which already includes newcomers Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre, Self said: “We have enough players to make a run next year.”
He said the team could be better than this year’s “if things fall right.”
If “things” fall right? I hate HCBS code talk.
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@icthawkfan316 “recruit multiple combo guards”. Exactly what Self (tries) to do.
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Self’s offensive system is the reason he isn’t successful at recruiting pure point guards. As an aside, his offensive system is also one of the reasons why KU can lose to a team like Stanford.
According to a paper Self wrote on the hi-lo system, he wants post players to post up directly between the ball and the basket. He admits that it hinders a skilled perimeter player from getting in the lane and requires the 2 post players to basically get out of the way. Any skilled recruiter is going to easily use that against KU in recruiting. It isn’t that Self has more charisma when he recruits bigs than he has when he recruits point guards. It’s just that his offensive system works against him in the recruiting wars.
Is Self’s system right or wrong? That’s debatable. What isn’t debatable is his system has produced a record number of wins in such a short period of time and an amazing string of conference titles.
But success in March more often than not comes down to whether a team has great point guard play.
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@truhawk93
He said the team could be better than this year’s “if things fall right.”
If “things” fall right? I hate HCBS code talk.
He just means don’t lose in the stinkin’ first weekend of the tournament. That’s the improvement I want to see.
