Biggest change needed?
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@icthawkfan316 I also think that Coach needs to be more willing to be fluid in his approach to the game at hand. Sure he wins 8 of 10 doing what he does but the NCAA tournament is a different animal and needs to be treated as such. The game of basketball itself is designed to be fluid and ever changing, its a thing of beauty when it is played well. Coach should learn to be more fluid in his approach to how he coaches late in the season. I don’t know for sure but I am betting that he doesn’t have an 80% win loss card during the NCAA’s.
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“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.”
“You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.”
Albert Einstein
@globaljaybird Cute, but I’ve already addressed the issue of insanity. But if you insist, what does it say to post the same things over and over again after each loss ?
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@konkeyDong Konkey nailed it. Tactics. Self needs better late season tactics. Whats that quote Jaybate likes from General Patton regarding tactics? pow.
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@Lulufulu85 All good questions. But I don’t think Perry comes off the bench next year. He will continue to be one of our go to guys. Selden being the other. I think that Mason has the makings of a really good defender.
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@Hawk8086 depends on which Perry shows up.
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@Hawk8086 If Perry comes doesn’t come off the bench, what’s your starting five?
1 - Tharpe/Mason/Frankamp/Unknown 2 - Selden/Greene 3 - Oubre/Ellis??? 4 - Alexander/Ellis??? 5 - Alexander/Turner/Lucas
Of course it all depends on who we get, if anyone. But I think the only way Ellis is a starter is if we don’t get Turner, or if he’s willing to play the three.
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@nuleafjhawk “I want every loss to hurt the players and coaches as much as it hurts US.” Because they just don’t understand how much we mean to Jayhawk basketball.
@MoonwalkMafia Turner would be nice, but I’d like to see what Hunter can do if we don’t get him. He could be Withey, jr. with better post moves. I was thinking 1-Francamp/Mason 2- Selden/Greene 3- Oubre/Perry 4- Alexander/ Traylor 5-Hunter/ Lucas
I didn’t list Tharpe because I’m hoping he turns pro. <smirk> We’ll probably see : Naadir, Selden, Oubre, Perry, and Alexander as the starters, with Traylor, Mason, Francamp, Greene, and Hunter as the top reserves.
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@MoonwalkMafia he’s tooooo sllllooooooowwww to play the 3.
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@Lulufulu85 @MoonwalkMafia Don’t feel the need to fill the second post position with a true center. Sure they’re nice and definitely help the defense, but playing two athletic 4s in the post is perfectly acceptable. So look for a starting line-up of Ellis & Alexander in the post, unless we land Turner and he impresses so much that he rips the starting job away from Ellis. Two of Self’s best teams (probably THE two best in my opinion) have played with two athletic 4s starting - the '08 championship team with Jackson & Arthur, and the '11 team with the Morris Twins. My point is don’t expect Lucas or Mickelson to leap frog over Ellis & Traylor just because they may be closer to a center than a power forward.
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@MoonwalkMafia Alexander, Ellis, Oubre / Greene, Selden, then Mason / CF/ Tharpe. If Turner commits, then there may be some debate about who starts. I can’t believe that we would think that Perry doesn’t start. Because he is weak defensively? He is our best returning scorer. Given Self’s history of playing the experienced guy, it would be a major upset if Perry doesn’t start. I don’t think he starts at the 3.
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@MoonwalkMafia I should have added. Even if Turner commits, either he or Cliff starts…they both don’t start over Ellis.
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@icthawkfan316 Agree 100%
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@konkeyDong I have already made the case to shy away from what you’re best at and try and win doing something we are less proficient at. What you continue to fail to do is to take into account the other team and what their strengths are, what they are vulnerable to, etc. Again, say you are best at M2M defense, but your opponent’s offense absolutely shreds M2M defense. Now, say that same team is totally confused/baffled/inept at attacking a zone. Even if you are not as good running a zone defense as you are running M2M, that doesn’t automatically mean that the strategy will be less successful. I gave the example of pressing. Even though we are not a pressing team, Self was likely more comfortable going to the press earlier in the game than we have seen on other occasions because pressing attacked their weakness.
We can go round and round about using a zone for a possession or two and what that means - overhaul, tweak, special situation, abandoning core strategy - but essentially it’s semantics and we’ll have to agree to disagree. I just don’t see adding a handful of possessions playing zone, or trapping, or pressing, as overhaul, whereas you do. To me it doesn’t really matter what you call it, I’d like to see it.
I am still interested if you have an answer to the question that was posed as the topic of the original thread: What would you change that you think would improve our post season success?
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@JRyman & @globaljaybird – Don’t think for a minute that “we really don’t know squat.”
This is not rocket science, it’s not brain surgery, and it is not complex. It is a game with many elements.
Look at other teams. See what is successful. Adopt. Adapt. Take pieces that will help this team be more successful. That’s really all coach Self needs to do in my humble opinion. As I mentioned – Free your mind. Just break free of the philosophical tunnel vision.
I have really seen zero change from coach Self. Everything is the same. Offense, defense – everything.
While I am clearly more in coach Roy’s camp regarding style of play, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. And Self has skinned that cat.
And to the “we really don’t know squat” thing – right, coach Self will clearly be able to take information and translate it on the floor better than the rest of us. Not even an issue there.
But too many times folks get caught in the trap of thinking that because someone is extraordinary in what they do, that an opinion in comparison is not worthy or valid.
Let me ask you this, in all seriousness. Do you really think that coach Self is smarter than @jaybate? I can flat out guarantee you that @jaybate wins that hands down.
Now, does that mean @jaybate can coach like Self? Of course not. But he can certainly view, process, and apply information, and likely in a higher capacity.
That’s all our discussions are here. Try this – do you think that our discussions about KU playing fast, creating more possessions, trapping and pressing, putting the best offensive team on the court to score, placing less emphasis on defensive personnel – has any merit now after the loss to Stanford? I bet if anyone here could go back and try that, they’d do it.
I wouldn’t minimize insight on the message board here. Many time folks are in positions that they are in due to circumstance when many others, given the same circumstance, could achieve in the same manner – whether it be a CEO, Coach, Doctor, Lawyer, or President of the United States.
I’ve met brilliant people who simply have not been in a position to achieve professionally, many of them women who have chosen to be moms first.
Do you really think that George W. Bush and Barack Obama are more qualified than many, many others to have been president? Doesn’t make them bad presidents, but their skill set is not unique. Circumstance, in large part, led to them becoming president.
Let’s not be afraid to critique. The key is why – why is an opinion valid? The rationale. The logic.
Logic wins the day.
And that’s the issue I have with coach Self’s approach sometimes. It makes no logical sense when you add everything up.
I can tell you, in my opinion, our game plan for Stanford stunk. And I have one strong point in my favor – the result. We lost. We got beat by an “ok” team. A lousy 10 seed ruined our season. We played their game. Out coached. Period.
What I haven’t heard is anyone defend Self’s game plan vs. Stanford. Not one person.
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@JRyman & @globaljaybird – Don’t think for a minute that “we really don’t know squat.”
We know the game, we know who the players are and we know the coaches. The game of basketball is overly simple, it is made complex by those who don’t get the simple objective of getting the ball into the peach basket.
What I am saying is we don’t know what happens in the locker room, the film room, in the one on one meetings. We don’t know how player A is at practice compared to player G, we are not there, there fore we do not know squat.
We aren’t in the time outs, we can hear what a sideline reporter reports, but we aren’t in the huddle.
Having a knowledge of the game does not give one the knowledge that it takes to coach. Just because you were a great player does not give you the knowledge to be a great let alone a good coach. Anyone can pick up a book and take a test and become a basketball official, that does not make them knowledgeable.
We don’t know what Coach Self is telling his players in practice there fore we can’t say how they should play in a game, we don’t know if he tells them to play this way and they just don’t do it.
Unless you or anyone really close to you is on the staff we don’t know squat.
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Now, Now boys…play nice.
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@HighEliteMajor- I’m generally in agreement with you most of the time, specifically when it comes to game situational adjustments, opening the floor (spacing) to enhance the ability for top notch shooters to nail the long ball, and situationally going zone to mix up opponents offenses if only for a few possessions. Doesn’t take a genius to see that oft times an extra possession means the diff in a W or L. You’re correct it is a very simple game, but finessing a squad depends on the real cards you hold, & Self always holds his tight to the vest. We never see them until they’re played. And frankly, we just don’t have a clue what goes on behind closed doors. What the world happened with AW III-don’t have the foggiest ? Lotsa ideas but no real scoop. Would Embid have played in the sweet 16-not a snowball’s chance in Hell that one poster on this board has the truth. Is he waiting to end speculation because he wanted Andrew to have the stage first, or is he really thinking of returning or just indecisive because he is not hearing the right prognostications from the draft services & the L speculations that he is now damaged goods? For sure no one on this board can figure these things out. And we mostly have the luxury of speaking how we would have done things differently after the game is over. Hey I see things also when the games are live, & am always questioning sets or methods or failures to execute under my breath-even louder at times. Most of the family doesn’t like to watch with me because I’m continually using replay & the advantages of a DVR.
So when I post something tongue in cheek like we don’t know squat or schizz or an Einstein quote or whatever, it’s never meant to be mean spirited & I hope you or no one else would take it as such. Some on this site have played at high levels, some have & may still coach & some are just here because they’re hoops junkies. I’m a little of the latter two. I actually watched most of the Badgers AZ game & the Michigan UK game, & in all honesty I enjoyed them. Lotsa offense, good defense, back n’ forth, hit em’ in the jaw, hit em’ back again, right down to the final ticks. I enjoy good basketball & I don’t care who it is playing. Would rather see KU in the mix, but Bill’s due for at least an elite 8 next year so will have to hang on another year & watch another season. Well damn the luck !! I always savor the best parts of every season down to the final game, which if a loss, I quickly relinquish to short term memory. That’s what you do when you’re really pissed off at your kid when he screws up big time. You can’t send him back, he’s still your kid regardless of what he’s done, & the real reason you let their shortcoming go…is because you love them. My clock’s already ticking down to late night. As always, JMO & ROCK CHALK !!
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@icthawkfan316 I think I did answer the question. We have to change who we’re playing at the point. Tharpe is who he is and I’ll be flabbergasted if he’s significantly better next year. That doesn’t mean that he can’t or won’t have a role on the team (provided he’s still with them now that that picture is out), but I’m willing to go as far as looking at Selden or Oubre to run the point if we can’t find a good Juco or graduate transfer and Frankamp and Mason still aren’t ready. Also, Self should be willing to play Ellis off the bench, despite his scoring, if we can be stronger defensively with Alexander and a center (hopefully Embiid or Turner).
As for the other thing, I have no problem with trying to exploit weaknesses, but what you described with running zone because your man D is getting beat is exactly the time where I’d say it’s worth trying your zone D, with a few caveats, and I’ve seen Self do this throughout the years. What I’m saying would be a strategic change is regularly switching between zone and man to try and throw off opponents. This can only be effective if your zone D is credible and the only way to be credible is to work on it. So that raises the question, is it worth developing that at the cost of developing other skill sets given that you’re constrained by time, especially when you have a young team? It’s easier to add more ripples when you have veterans who are deeply entrenched in your core system. That certainly doesn’t describe us this year.
I’m not saying you can never do this or that it’s a bad idea. What I’m really doing is making a core judgement. Self has the most consistently winning system even if he hasn’t won the most titles or made the most Final Fours of any coach in the past 10 years. So statistically speaking, is it worth it to lean hard on a system that consistently produces wins in order to try and win 6 games in March/April, or do you switch to a system that is higher risk and higher reward? HEM seems ready to take the risks citing that we could be UConn or UK or UF, or whomever else. I’m conservative like Self in that regard, so I don’t know if I could take the heart ache of having real down years just to try and swing for the fences in March. But I’m also open to the possibility that that’s where the game has gone. Self’s system might be too 2008, but I don’t take the evidence of having lost to a mediocre Stanford team when our best player was injured as definitive proof of that because I think the data tells a very different story. I’m also bullish about the future, especially if we return Embiid. He made this team and his absence broke it, unfortunately.
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@konkeyDong Yeah you did tell me about Tharpe and the PG play. I guess I overlooked it because I was thinking on a more general/macro level. Like something to be done across the years.
This explains, I think, perhaps some of our disagreements. And it’s probably my fault for not being clear enough, but most of the things I was suggesting or referencing were meant to be directed in broader terms, not specific to the past year’s team or the loss to Stanford. For instance, when I was making the point about the wrong personnel and mentioned it wasn’t practical to run a high-low offense with players 6’7" or shorter, that was just an example and not me referring to this past year’s team (although without Embiid it was close to being accurate). It’s also why I’d agree that adding ripples or working the less used parts of the offense/defense makes more sense with a veteran-laden team, and not necessarily this past team.
As to the issue of making core judgments and if it’s worth leaning on that system to try and produce more wins in March…eh. I tend to agree with HEM in that March success trumps all these days. I don’t know that it means taking a “swing for the fences” approach though, as I’m like you in that I don’t think I would take the real down years. But I look at Kentucky, and I would absolutely trade our last two seasons, even if it meant being taken down by Robert Morris in the NIT last season. They’re right back in the Final 4. To me that beats making the sweet 16 last year and the round of 32 this year plus two more conference championships. And yeah I know it’s not a fair comparison, as you’re right and I’ve also said as much that the Embiid injury changed everything. I doubt Kentucky would be where they are had Julius Randal missed their first two tournament games (a loss to Wichita State would be the likely result in that scenario).
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@JRyman I acknowledge your point. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about what we can see. So I just think you are dead wrong there. We can certainly analyze what’s going on.
But to your point. Let’s say we want KU to play zone. But coach Self has run zone in practice, sees that it is horrible that three players are completely incompetent running the zone, and he sees it as a waste of time even if man to man is not that solid.
There I would agree. But in that instance, Self said on Hawk Talk that he thought we could be a good zone team, but that he believes in man to man. He said that good man to man is better than good zone, and that it’s harder to beat a good man to man team.
On some of the other items, there are not issues that relate to specific personnel or secret behind the scenes things – he does the same thing every season regardless of personnel, etc.
“Anyone can pick up a book and take a test and become a basketball official, that does not make them knowledgeable.” — Great point
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@HighEliteMajor-I believe also the point you explain about Bill doing the same things year after year, are pinpointing the reasons he gets outcoached at times, not just in the dance, but throughout the season.
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@konkeyDong “HEM seems ready to take the risks citing that we could be UConn or UK or UF, or whomever else. I’m conservative like Self in that regard, so I don’t know if I could take the heart ache of having real down years just to try and swing for the fences in March.”
See, I don’t think that March success and regular season success is mutually exclusive.
Self really, really knows what he’s doing. We all know that. He is a great coach.
All I suggest is tweaks. I see a coach who has tunnel vision, who is stuck on his philosophy. And I see a team who has failed in big situations because of that tunnel vision. Granted, that tunnel vision is part of the reason why we have been so good and consistent. But the flat out refusal to adapt a bit has been our downfall.
No one can or has defended our strategy against Stanford. The irritation with some is the criticizing of Self. The “if you are so brilliant then apply for the job” argument. But no one has defended the strategy.
Self himself said that they were long and contested our shots. That led to a low shooting percentage, which is a hallmark of good defense (by Self’s standards) … so, how do you get open looks?
You have to scheme it. We didn’t.
They have superior interior players and our strategy is to get the ball inside. We have superior wings (Selden, Wiggins) and we do nothing to create opportunities for them offensively. Wiggins shot 6 times. He should have shot 16. Wiggins stood in the same spots, ran the same stuff. Stanford said thank you and took it away. That is where a coach has to adjust. No one has contested the claim that coach Self got outcoached against Stanford. Not that I’ve seen.
Our strategy against Stanford is indefensible.
Self’s strategy against Stanford is always his strategy, as @globaljaybird nailed perfectly.
That’s my point.
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Balanced teams make it to the Final Four. Not balance as far as balanced scoring - you can have one or two dominant scorers. Balanced as far as offense and defense.
You have to be able to get stops when you need them, because you can always pack your defense, even if your offense doesn’t travel.
You also have to be able to score easily.
KU struggled in both of those areas this year. They could not get stops. I can’t remember a single time this year when I felt confident this year that KU could lock somebody up defensively. That was a problem. Most of this had to do with personnel. KU started 2 below average defenders basically all season (Tharpe and Ellis). But even strategically, you should be able to get stops if you have a defender like Wiggins on the perimeter. But they couldn’t.
But at the same time, when KU wasn’t in transition against certain teams, they had a lot of trouble getting easy baskets (think Stanford, San Diego State, Villanova, Florida, @K-State). This is more of a strategic thing. Self typically wants to play 2 posts and three perimeter guys. However, against certain teams, he might have been better served to go 4 out, or even 5 out. For instance, in the Big XII tournament against Iowa State he may have been well served to play Wiggins as a token power forward and gone small with Selden at the 3 and two of the Mason, Tharpe, Frankamp group, along with Ellis, Black or Traylor. I also think that lineup would have put a lot of pressure on Stanford.
We have to capitalize on mismatches much more than we do right now. It’s the only way to avoid losing to inferior teams.
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@icthawkfan316 How about finding those great assistant coaches we used to have. Imagine we have Joe and Danny with us this year. Hmmmm…just leave me wondering. A great general is made great by his brave soldiers.
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@icthawkfan316-Don’t know if this question has been raised yet, but do you think Self has incentives in his contract that kick in when he wins the conf championship or reaches a high seed in the dance? If so, the emphasis he places on gaining very single win available may be testament to his “no loss is a good loss” approach & why he is so reluctant to deviate from his obvious patterns of success? Then again, perhaps the schedule he played this year was somewhat of his own litmus test for preparing a team of freshman & underclassmen for the rigors of post season? Just a thought do you think those factors are an element to his approach?
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How about finding those great assistant coaches we used to have
@Shanghai_Hawk Well, that’s certainly an area we can explore. But it does no good to bring in say…a brilliant offensive minded assistant if Self not going to be open to doing things even slightly differently. Until we see that, I think the point is perhaps irrelevant.
But let’s take a look at the assistant coaches we have now:
Kurtis Townsend. He’s the mainstay, being on the staff since 2004. Not sure of your opinion on Townsend, but at the very least we know he’s been at the center of the team’s successes & failures throughout the years.
Norm Roberts. Replaced Manning in 2012. I don’t know that we’ve had a big drop off developing big men since Manning left. Maybe too early to tell, but nothing noticeable yet. Roberts brings former “BSC school” head coaching experience from his years at St. Johns. Also brings strong east coast recruiting ties.
Jerrance Howard. Replaced Dooley after Dooley took the FGCU job following last season. Former player under Self at Illinois. Assistant gigs at SMU, Illinois, Texas A&M, & Kentucky. Reputation as an excellent recruiter. Got some top flight players to commit to SMU during their rebuilding phase.
So there’s the bios of what we have on staff now (assistants only. Not discounting Hudy, or any team managers, director of basketball operations, etc.). I honestly can’t speak to their personal coaching philosophies, as only Roberts has run his own system and I didn’t follow St. Johns to know what they ran. I don’t really have issue with anyone, but if you were to replace one, who goes? And what exactly do you want on the staff now that you don’t think we’re getting? Maybe a guard specialist to better develop our guards? Offensive/defensive strategist?
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@icthawkfan316 NOrm tried to to run Coach Self’s system at StJ’s but it never took and they went all KU football on him and didn’t give him a lot of time to instill his system with his players. They have won with some of his players and a different coach, but nothing like what StJ’s used to be in the 80s.
I think all of these guys learn a lot from Self and he in return listens to him, but it’s like getting advice from your kid, its the same advice you gave them. Then again those are the coaches you want on your bench and not ones that will argue with you so they can get a leg up in the biz.
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@globaljaybird Well the details of Self’s contract are available to review. Here is a link to the pdf file on kusports:
Here are just some of the things I gleaned from reading an overview on ljworld.com:
• Regular-season conference championship ($50,000).
• Conference postseason tournament championship ($25,000).
• AP Coach of the Year ($100,000).
• Final Four appearance ($150,000).
• NCAA Championship ($200,000).
Personally I don’t think these things factor into Self’s coaching philosophy. He’s got plenty of money. Regardless, we see that his bonuses are considerably higher for Final 4s and post season championships. So in that regard, it would be worth sacrificing a win, or even a Big 12 title, if he thought that better prepared his team for tournament success. Just from a monetary standpoint anyway, which again, I don’t think he factors into consideration.
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they went all KU football on him and didn’t give him a lot of time to instill his system with his players
@JRyman He was there six years! Not sure how much more time a program is supposed to give a guy. I don’t know all the details, but he never made the NCAA tournament, had one CBI appearance and one NIT appearance, he finished one game above .500 twice…to me it seems like he got a fair shake.
Anyway, I think he’s a good assistant coach, and maybe in a different situation could make a good head coach.
Obviously in games & practices in front of your players you want everyone on your staff to be on the same page (i.e. not “argue with you” ). But I think what some people are suggesting is bringing in someone in to help expand or tweak the general system, or to help aid in coaching some areas where perhaps Self isn’t as proficient. Some have suggested that perhaps the reason we don’t bother with much zone is that we don’t have anyone on staff who is a “zone guy”. No one with that expertise. Which is not to say bringing someone of that nature means Self is switching his defensive philosophy to that of playing primarily zone, but just to help teach it to have another club in the bag.
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@icthawkfan316 That 50 large for the BG12 is nothing to sneeze at over a 10 year timeframe. You can do a lot of charity work, set aside trusts for family members, or even set up a nice little off shore account if you have too many zero’s on the end of a paycheck. Wow, we can only wish.
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@globaljaybird Agreed, 50 large is decent change.
But while I really don’t put a whole lot of stock into it, the more I looked at it the more it got me to thinking along some different lines. $50k for conference regular season champions. $150k for a Final 4 appearance. So, just based on the contract, we can assume that 1 Final 4 appearance = to 3 conference championships. In a year where you win the National Championship I’m assuming you get both the Final 4 and the National Championship bonus, so by those terms 7 conference championships = 1 national championship. Just a little something to consider to the “would you trade our conference championships for another Final 4/National Championship” crowd.
(btw, I don’t really think along those lines, but it is a way to put a price on our different successes)
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@icthawkfan316 thanks. Maybe I should rephrase what I said. I like HCBS. I am wondering how much input he got from his coaching team in a game situation. It looks to me his game strategies looked predictable and surprise tactics such as junk defense in the past was no way to be found, I.e. Something that are not predictable. For me, it suggests a mono decision maker when the game plans started to look predictable.
