Tournament Success Is The Only Success
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@wissoxfan83 Ok so you have this old pair of high tops. Their broke in they for just right you can play decent D in them hit a few jumpers but miss a few more threes than you’d like. But you can’t dunk in them. So there’s a new pair you can get that guarantee you to dunk just one time down at the Y. Now your D won’t be as good, your jumper is gone and no one at the Y really wants you on their team like they did before. But you get to dunk one time.
What do you do? Keep or old shoes and become a legend at the Y or go for the new ones for that one dunk?
I went with the kid to make it hard. It wasn’t meant to be easy. It was to make people really think. It’s an apple to oranges comparison but it was made to really make you think about what the original question at the beginning of the thread asked.
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First analogy that comes to my mind is would you trade your awesome home entertainment system / furniture in the den for a European vacation? The den might serve you well for 10 years, but that European vacation is the stuff of memories!
I’d rather go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone or the red wood forest than to Europe.
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@JRyman But would you rather go to the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, or redwood forest than have the home entertainment system?
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@approxinfinity I don’t know how big is my tv? How powerful is my surround sound? How comfortable is my recliner?
Due to some of my health issues I do not like to fly as it causes some of the worst headaches you could imagine for about 48 hours. So I’d have to drive a long ways for any of those. So sitting in my recliner wouldn’t be so bad.
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@JRyman well clearly my analogy works as you are both the entertainment system guy and the 10 conference title guy
would you trade the one title Self won (ie erase Marios shot) for ten more conference titles?
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@JRyman I’m guessing it’s a pretty sweet set-up! Recline away!!!
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@approxinfinity I wouldn’t!
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@JRyman well clearly my analogy works as you are both the entertainment system guy and the 10 conference title guy
would you trade the one title Self won (ie erase Marios shot) for ten more conference titles?So 20 straight conference titles and no national title since 88. Tough one.
Probably not but since that 08 title landed within the original 10 year span why does it have to go?
Heck let’s open a can of worms now. Say that Mario’s shot doesn’t go. Does Self leave after that season for OKst? Then where would Kansas basketball be? He is getting all these great recruits down there and winning 6 straight conference titles while KU is and 8 seed in the tournament?
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@JRyman Self would never go to Ok State directly from Kansas. In my mind his fortune has always read “stay at KU until you burn out on college ball after Tyler graduates, then go pro if you can find the right fit, then maybe go back to Stillwater if you still feel like coaching.”
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@approxinfinity I’m just saying if the 08 title didn’t happen the Bradley and Bucknell loses and the fans are on him more than they are now. No bonus from KU for winning the title can’t get the extension he got either and his alma matter comes calling with a blank check from T Boone.
It becomes a domino effect. You change one thing and who knows what else changes along with it?
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HEM, I notice that you posed the question (stirred the pot) and then, presumably, just sat back and watched everyone respond. You remind me of Lardass in the moveie Stand by Me. The kid who stood there with his arms folded and watched the havoc that he caused.
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@Hawk8086 - That’s pretty funny. Actually, I was coaching baseball all day in a tournament so was otherwise detained.
I hope everyone noticed that in my post, I made no criticism of coach Self, nor did I reference him.
The responses here are quite amazing, I think. A full range of thought on the topic.
I think, first, some presume that giving back the 10 conference titles means mediocrity. I wouldn’t presume that.
Has UConn won any Big East regular season conference titles since and including 1999? I would think yes, but I don’t know. But I don’t care. They have won three NCAA titles in the stretch. Three. 1999, 2004, and 2011 (the final one should have been our title).
Since and including 1996, Kentucky has won three national titles (1996, 1997, and 2012). I know they’ve won conference titles. But I don’t care.
Florida won back to back titles … but conference titles? I don’t know.
We know Duke and UNC have each won two national titles since and including 2001. Conference titles? I’m sure they’ve won some. I don’t know.
What I said is that conference titles are a means to an end. But they, in the final analysis, really mean nothing. I provide the contrast to make a point for discussion. I want national championships. I want, as @Moonwalkmafia said, a “team built for March.”
I saw the reference by @JayHawkFanToo to comparing Big 12 titles to Gonzaga’s titles not being a fair comparison? Why not? Who in this conference ever does anything nationally? No one in this conference has won a national title except Kansas since when? The Model-T? How is this conference better than Gonzaga’s? RPI? BPI? We were supposedly the best conference and no one even gets to the Elite 8. When we get on the national stage we are routinely pummeled. Look at KU’s recruiting. My guess is, in a relative sense, our recruiting vs. the rest of the conference is pretty close to Gonzaga vs. the rest of their conference. And I acknowledge that the streak is amazing, it just has nothing to do with greatness. Zero.
And I always love strawman arguments like @JayHawkFanToo made – referencing programs who had short term success “VCU, George Mason, or Butler …” How in the world does that have anything to do with KU? Again, I know it’s easy to argue this way, but it’s not relevant in my humble opinion to Kansas.
@Blown “This post reeks of selfish ego, cynicism, and is a direct result of being spoiled by this programs successes.”
Interesting. Actually, is it unrealistic to think that we can be UConn? And please, I hope no one cites academics with UConn or KU.
And now, we don’t have a “handful of championships.” We have 3. The first two, as we all know, in 1922 and 1923 are just silly to include. It’s embarrassing when I see folks cite them.
This program has won but 3 national titles … ever.
And we sit round and pat our backs about conference titles. It is Kool-Aid. It is a diversion. It is nice window dressing. It does allow some to wear t-shirts and talk smack to ISU fans from time to time.
For me, I am curious as to why, with all of our talent and recruiting, we can’t find a game plan for success to beat UNI, VCU, and Stanford … I mean, with a conference title preceding those contests and all. I don’t expect national titles every season. But with our talent, we have been significantly shortchanged – 1997, 2002, and 2011 without any doubt.
@Blown – you say “Should I tell my kids there was no “success” in their year because they didn’t win the last game.”
My answer, no, you shouldn’t say they had “no success.” I never said that. But you should tell them that they are not a champion.
And being a champion, if you are playing at the highest level and you aspire to be thought of as elite, is the only true measure of greatness.
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@HighEliteMajor I hate that the Big 12 has no other marquee teams and that the other teams never do anything in the tournament. I do think this year both ISU & OSU had FInal 4 talent, but like us were derailed by injuries. Okie St. was never the same without Cobbins. ISU lost it’s biggest MUA when Niang went down - they easily beat UConn with him. And obviously we were pretty average without Embiid.
Anyway, yeah the Gonzaga comparison is a very appropriate one.
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I do think there are always things to investigate & learn from & move forward after every season is over, though not much time can be spent away from the job to recharge now & reflect. Bill does this every year & while it’s so simple for us to convey our “expertise” & wishes for the Jayhawks, Bill’s system has reached many peaks in his tenure here. A tweak here or there is all I’d suggest for gameday matchups. That & being a better game coach in the dance with shorter times to prepare your squad might be desired also, but I personally ALWAYS enjoy the “ride” just some years it’s a little more or less so & longer or more brief than others. KU Athletics/BB is what & who I am & always have been. My Dad ran track & vaulted in Memorial stadium in the 1920’s & I listened to the 1952 NC with him when I was literally in the crib because we didn’t have a big enough bed. I cried when Carolina won the 57 NC & again when Texas Western took the game from us in 1966. My children went to college there. I share all these things with total strangers because its who am, day in & out, each day I live. I would never mortgage any of our accomplishments in all of the histories we’ve earned through the blood & sweat of those before or after us. Never. The ride is always very good for many like me & always will be. It began with horses & buggies, emerged on trains then automobiles, & continues on with Boeings & Learjets. I would not be critical of those who do not view things as I, but will always try to take their points & thoughts into consideration to better understand all. After all-we are all on the same side, with the same goal, with the same team, and that is reason of in itself to enjoy the ride, because this is The University of Kansas Athletics…Rock Chalk !!
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I do think there are always things to investigate & learn from & move forward after every season is over, though not much time can be spent away from the job to recharge now & reflect. Bill does this every year & while it’s so simple for us to convey our “expertise” & wishes for the Jayhawks, Bill’s system has reached many peaks in his tenure here. A tweak here or there is all I’d suggest for gameday matchups. That & being a better game coach in the dance with shorter times to prepare your squad might be desired also, but I personally ALWAYS enjoy the “ride” just some years it’s a little more or less so & longer or more brief than others. KU Athletics/BB is what & who I am & always have been. My Dad ran track & vaulted in Memorial stadium in the 1920’s & I listened to the 1952 NC with him when I was literally in the crib because we didn’t have a big enough bed. I cried when Carolina won the 57 NC & again when Texas Western took the game from us in 1966. My children went to college there. I share all these things with total strangers because its who am, day in & out, each day I live. I would never mortgage any of our accomplishments in all of the histories we’ve earned through the blood & sweat of those before or after us. Never. The ride is always very good for many like me & always will be. It began with horses & buggies, emerged on trains then automobiles, & continues on with Boeings & Learjets. I would not be critical of those who do not view things as I, but will always try to take their points & thoughts into consideration to better understand all. After all-we are all on the same side, with the same goal, with the same team, and that is reason of in itself to enjoy the ride, because this is The University of Kansas Athletics…Rock Chalk !!
Enough said!
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@JRyman-Thanks for the fav. Dad also played city league ball at the “fateful Topeka Y” in the early 1930’s while working for the old Missouri Pacific RR there. He was only about 5’-10" but could still dunk one handed in his early 40’s & when he passed at age 50, could still snatch the grab irons on a caboose & hold his body straight out horizontal. He was a stud when he was young & actually held the KS class A HS pole vault record for 40 years from 1923-1963 with a freaking bamboo pole. My future wife’s cousin was actually the one to break it in 63 with a fiberglass pole. I’m undeniably very proud of where we come from, where we’ve been, and where we continually transpire to go. Again, ROCK CHALK !!
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@KUSTEVE Based on your stats of the past 8 seasons, next year we are due for a Elite 8 or better appearance. So will it be at least Elite 8 without Embiid or as least Final 4 with Embiid?
I’d like to think our big men are the anchor of the team and they don’t do that well in one year in Coach Self’s system because it is difficult to learn for the big men.
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By the way, I enjoyed the ride even with all the distractions of media hype, but I’d enjoy the ride a lot more if we advance past my base expectation. I like the meat and potato, but having a little gravy would be better.
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HEM, I think most people that come to this site want KU to win a NC just as much as you do. You mentioned teams that had won it multiple times…UCONN, Duke, UNC, Florida, UK. How many of those have been since 2003, when Self took over? For the years prior to 2003, the question of why haven’t we won should be directed to Williams, Owens, Harp, etc. And I really don’t think Self should have been expected to compete for a NC in his first two or three years at KU.
One thing to remember is that it normally takes a lot of luck. You gotta admit there was luck involved with Mario’s shot falling against Memphis. You also gotta admit there was a lot of luck in 1988 when all the top seeds kept losing. That was incredible.
If things had not gone KU’s way those two years, then you would be talking 1952 since KU won a championship. Talk about frustration.
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@HighElimeMajor
I saw the reference by @JayHawkFanToo to comparing Big 12 titles to Gonzaga’s titles not being a fair comparison? Why not? Who in this conference ever does anything nationally? No one in this conference has won a national title except Kansas since when? The Model-T? How is this conference better than Gonzaga’s? RPI? BPI? We were supposedly the best conference and no one even gets to the Elite 8. When we get on the national stage we are routinely pummeled.
HEM, actually you present a text book straw man argument. I very specifically stated the reason why the BIG 12 is a stronger conference.
Big 12 ended the season as the highest ranked conference by all ranking sources, and by all measured criteria. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand was ranked number 9.
The Big 12 had 7 teams at different times during the season ranked in the top 25. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand, only had 1 team. Gonzaga,
The Big 12 sent 7 teams or 70% to the NCAA Tournament. The West Coast Conference, on the other hand, sent only 2 (20%) and one was bubble team.
Those are actual, verifiable numbers and not a figment of my imagination.
While the differences year in and year out are not as pronounced as this year, the Big 12 is a much stronger conference than the West Coast Conference year in and year out, and no objective observer would claim that a West Conference title is comparable to a Big 12 Conference title.
The real straw man is to judge a team or conference or coach based solely by what they do (or don’t do) in a couple of weeks at the end of the season instead of the entire body of work over the entire season or in KU’s case for an extended period of time.
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With all due respect your analogy is also apples to oranges,
Perhaps a better analogy would be: would you trade your awesome home entertainment system that is ranked among the top systems for the top rated system, for one year every ten years, and the rest of the time settle for something you pick at a big box store?
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So, simply put… How many of you would trade KU’s season straight up with Kentucky’s?
I certainly would. Final Four is better than any conference championship.
Heck, I would trade the last three years worth of seasons with Kentucky right now. A championship, A Final Four (could be more…ugh!) sandwich with the NIT Robert Morris egg in between.
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@FarSideHawk Even if that means in 5 to 10 it might be vacated?
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@FarSideHawk Yep. Not even a consideration. I’d take that without blinking.
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@JRyman Well let’s go out on a limb and assume no ‘vacating’
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I think this thread shows that we all live in a now world. There is nothing wrong with that, however, I will take the 10 conference championships now, and hope that I am lucky enough to witness KU winning a championship in March at some point in the next 5 years or so.
Some have said that they would trade places with Florida because they have been in 4 straight elite 8s. Does that mean that they would also take the two years not long ago in which they didn’t make the tournament? I know that was immediately after winning back to back, but come on. Wouldn’t there be some sort of Armageddon if we as fans had to watch not one, but two straight tournaments without the Jayhawks even being in the field?
The tournament is what it is. A brilliant concept that leaves millions of people heart broken every spring. Long ago I decided that for me personally, I needed to take a step back and understand that winning it all, while extremely satisfying as a fan, is one of those things that I can’t let define either my fandom, or my perception of the coach of team that I love.
Having said that, the one thing that I would change about Self, is that he seems so tight in the tournament. I wasn’t able to see the Stanford game as I was driving home from Pennsylvania, but man I could almost here him squeaking through the TV during that EKU game. He looked miserable.
