Best case and worst case.
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Wiggins set the freshman scoring record at KU (previously hed by Danny Manning), was one of the 10 finalist for player of the year and was the top defender on the team…how can that be a negative thing? Also Wiggins made KU a top destination and without him perhaps we don’t get Oubre and Alexander.
BTW on his pre-season debut Andrew Wiggins had 18 points, four rebounds, three assists, three blocks. Nice start.
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@HighEliteMajor Signing Andrew Wiggins was one of the best things to happen to Kansas Basketball, period. We will never know what last season could have been.? We lost a close game to Stanford. In order to win the NCAA Tournament, there always seems to be a close game or two that must be won. Adverse situations must be overcome. We failed, and were back in class on Monday. Had, we had Embiid, and let Conner Frankamp play through his mistakes, even though he didn’t really turn the ball over, who knows what could have happened?
Back to Wiggins, signing Andrew Wiggins benefits the Program. It is the overall Program that you are concerned about? Recruiting has improved. We are on the radar of most Top 50 recruits. In this present day world, with all the Social Media, Kansas has become a trendy place to attend. Andrew Wiggins loves KU and has come back to participate in a Camp with Coach Self. This will pay dividends for years to come. We didn’t win the National Championship, but we did win as a Program. I am glad we had Wiggins for one year.
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@wissoxfan83 “Graham isn’t ready to make an immediate impact as a starter”.
Coach Self: “Devonté has been terrific. He’s battling for starting minutes, not just playing. He’s battling to start,” Self said. “I think he’s more ready to play right now than any freshman point guard we’ve signed in a while, Tyshawn maybe,” Self added of Tyshawn Taylor, who started as a frosh in 2008-09.
“Tyshawn was kind of forced into action because there was nobody else there challenging. This is a little bit different. Devonté’s a good player, a good leader. He has intangibles. He’s an athlete. He’s exciting for me because of all the guys we recruited, he’d be the least publicized one but he probably has the best feel for what’s going on right now than anybody.”
I think we can safely take Devonte off the worst case scenario list. All this talk about playing small is a ruse, imo, to soften the blow to Frank and CF. I still think Frank gets large minutes, but I think we’ve found our point guard for the next 4 years.
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@HighEliteMajor said: " I made the rather absurd suggestion that we might have been better last if we hadn’t have signed Andrew Wiggins (I actually still believe that). "
I believe it too. Amen. And Amen. If Self had treated Wiggins like any other ball player, it may have been a different story, but Wiggins was coddled and therefore never had a chance to live up to his full potential.
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@HighEliteMajor Out of all the posts you have ever made, this line might be the best you’ve ever done, and might be the best line I’ve seen on these boards…ever : " Self was trying to get a show horse to pull a plow." Bravo. Magnificent.
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@VailHawk I’m puzzled on MUA also. Pretty sure it’s none of the ones you speculated it might be however!
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Seriously! I’m really sad to hear that we- KU fans think that way about wiggins. Number 1 college recruit, number 1 draft pick, great rep for us in a bunch of different ways! Always put the team first, played the best defense-not even close, and is still backing us. Hate to hear it!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Don’t be too sad about it. It’s not a slam on Wiggins at all. I have nothing but good things to say about Wiggins, really, related to his short time here. And I’ve never really seen anyone slam him at all.
Wiggins was just a good player in the wrong system. He was soft, he was finesse, he did not create any shots or opportunities for others – he made no one on the team better.
Sounds like a negative. It isn’t. He was a freshman. He just needed more time to develop here. When he finally dove on the floor for the first time in February, that was a big deal. I bet he couldn’t remember the last time he did that. But that’s wasn’t his game, an it’s not going to be his game. He’s not a Bill Self type player.
The “not making the other players better” thing is a large part of my thought process. Thus I think this discussion is based on a team game idea. It’s kind of like in the movie “Independence Day”, when word was getting passed that the US was planning a counterstrike. A Brit said, “It’s about time, what are they going to do?”
A stud like Wiggins can cause others to feel and act as secondary options. To not be as assertive. To expect him to do something. That is team game poison. It sometimes isn’t obvious. But it’s invasive. Again, though, the fact that Wiggins didn’t make other’s better by passing or creating even when his drives were stopped, or he had opportunities, makes that even more stark in my mind.
I saw where @JayHawkFanToo suggested that without Wiggins we may not have gotten Oubre or Alexander. Maybe not. Let’s say we don’t get Oubre, since he was sold in part on taking Wiggins spot. So, we don’t have Wiggins or Oubre.
So what?
Right now, we have Greene, White, and Svi – or we play smaller as Self says he prefers and Selden is more at home in the three spot. And as I saw someone post, where would Greene and White and CF be now if Wiggins never showed up, as far as development?
Let’s say we didn’t win the conference title last season without Wiggins, and we got bounced in the first round (unlikely) instead of the second. How does anyone’s life appreciably change? Well, no one has a “10 there, done that t-shirt.”
Maybe if Wiggins isn’t here, because of the alignment of the planets, Embiid doesn’t hurt his knee, and thus doesn’t hurt his back. Brannen Greene buys in on defense, becomes a leader, and is a solid 3 point shooter. Because we have some lineup flux, Self plays CF more, CF thus has less “pressure”, and is a better shooter. Seeing that productivity, he benches Tharpe. Collectively, we gel, and win the NCAA title. Is that too far fetched?
I do agree that Wiggins brings a big name graduate that does love KU, as @KansasComet mentioned. And that is a nice “dividend.” And he can only help recruiting (@JayHawkFanToo).
It’s a purely speculative discussion as to whether we’d be better off. Tough to quantify. Impossible to prove or disprove.
But let me ask this, how do teams lose presumably more highly talented players, have those players replaced by lesser talented players, and then the group performs at a higher level than with those players?
Chemistry.
@KUSTEVE Thanks … and the praise on Graham is flowing, isn’t it? I
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" But let me ask this, how do teams lose presumably more highly talented players, have those players replaced by lesser talented players, and then the group performs at a higher level than with those players?
Chemistry. "
Your final word is precisely the statement I delivered on @drgnslayr “Losing Conf, Winning Title” thread yesterday. As I posted, chemistry is a fine science & is the intangible required for the inspired performance in March.
I rest my case.
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@HighEliteMajor Wiggins was just a good player in the wrong system. He was soft, he was finesse, he did not create any shots or opportunities for others – he made no one on the team better
Not a slam??? Ok, you are entitled to your opinion, which many on here agree. You think Coach regrets having him? Greene plays D and becomes a leader? Not having wiggins would have kept him out of the doghouse? Or, Conner would have played better D? Embiid would have to bail out almost every teammate. Far fetched! Throw in Ellis plays better D not having wigs too? Less talented players w/experience-like Releford are hard to beat, but they also played great D. Jmo!
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Last year’s team struggle primarily because that team could not get a stop when it had to have one. Look at some of the losses last season. Against Florida, staged a huge comeback, but could not get a stop to complete the run. Same thing against Colorado. Same against SDSU. Same against WVU. Some of those teams were very good offensive teams. Some were not. But regardless, we were a very middle of the road defensive team last season.
Part of the reason for that is that, of our rotation players, the only above average defenders we played were Wiggins and Embiid. With injuries, Selden was not above average. Black was roughly average. Jamari is above average on PFs, but against bigger guys, he is below average because of the size difference. Tharpe and Ellis were both average at best. Greene is a very average defender as well. We didn’t a have anyone in the backcourt that was an above average defender, and only one perimeter defender that was above average. That killed us last year. Once Embiid went down, we weren’t strong either inside or out on defense, and it showed.
This year, we have Graham, who is supposed to be a good defender. A healthy Selden should be an above average defender. Oubre should be average or above. Alexander is a good defender. The only player that will likely play over 25 minutes that will likely be only average or below is Perry. So long as he is paired with good defenders around him, I think he is an astute enough player to play within scheme to make this a good defensive team. Since he should be surrounded with our four best defenders for 80% of his minutes, he should be solid, just as last year with Embiid in there Perry was solid, but was exposed when Embiid went down.
An improved defense will improve KU overall. If we can get stops, we can win lots of games.
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@HighEliteMajor - I saw where @JayHawkFanToo suggested that without Wiggins we may not have gotten Oubre or Alexander. Maybe not. Let’s say we don’t get Oubre, since he was sold in part on taking Wiggins spot. So, we don’t have Wiggins or Oubre.
Since this thread is best case, worst case and you gave best case for this year I’ll go the other direction.
So we didn’t get Wiggins and everyone turns out the same as they did last year…
Without Andrew we lose to Duke early in the year. In the BFA instead of beating Wake because of Andrew’s strong second half we lose to them. With that loss there’s no need to worry about our L to Nova because we’d be playing USC who I think we would have beat just like Wake did. In the 5th place game for the BFA we woudl have played Tenn and just like WF we post an L. We get to come back to the states and head to Boulder to pick up another L right before Florida slaughters us putting us below 500. Next up is NM who we beat with out Wiggins because of foul trouble so we get back to 500. We beat G’town and Toledo then of course SDSU kills us. Sitting at 7-6 before conference play even starts.
In league instead of the four L’s we got we double that number. Here’s how: ISU and OSU beat us at home and away. We lose the WVU there but by even more this time, we still lose to Texas and KSU away and then the last L is the close one at Texas Tech in which Wiggins scored the layup at the end. So in league we go 10-8. Regular season isn’t looking so great at 17-14.
What’s 17-14 (10-eight) get us for the tourney?? 5th seed in the Big12 tourney facing off against 4th seed KState. (KState wins the tie breaker since they went 1-1 vs #1 seed ISU) We split the regular season with KSU but at their house it took overtime to beat us so we win on a “neutral” court. Next would be 1 seed ISU and we go out to them. Now we’re 18-15. Ouch.
Now 17-14 was WVU regular season record from last year and they didn’t get into the tourney. But we’re a big name having a down year so we go as the lowest seeded Big12. NC State move up to an 11 somewhere and we take their place in the First Four games that pits 12 seed Xavier versus 12 seed Kansas? We’re the 12 vs 5 that always screws peoples brackets. Everyone picks this 12 to upset the 5 of SLU. SLU was the only 5 to survive last year. They are in this scenario as well. We go home in the second round (aka first round).
No Wiggins = less media attention. No KO to fill AW shoes. Cliff picks up an Illini hat and doesn’t do a fake out. Svi is scared and doesn’t want to go to a team that struggled so badly so he’s headed to Virginia instead to show case his talents. Graham stays closer to home because KU isn’t trending on Twitter with the top two in the draft talk. All that love is in Kentucky who just cut down the nets with Wiggins as their leading scorer. So instead a class of Svi, KO, Cliff, and Graham we get a Royce, Milton, B. Anderson, and T. Appleton… Reloaded.
Pop retires after their great run in the playoffs and Bill fields a phone call. Not only are we shopping for a FBHC this year we also had to replace our BBHC that’s now hanging at the Alamo. Zenger hasn’t shown he can hire the right guy for the job with our lowly FB program. Let’s just hope Zenger doesn’t hire Charlie Wise 2.0 to take over the BB program. KU starts the year unranked. Missouri basketball players still mug people in this scenario. We hire Bruce Weber.
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@HighEliteMajor HEM, please explain to these idiots at KUSports why Conner Frankamp is not a viable option at PG… They remind of the kind of people that will slam a starting QB that throws 6 TDs but one bad INT in a game and want him gone…
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Wigs helped our program immensely. He just didn’t help our team as much as I would’ve liked. Can’t argue with the scoring average, though. To me, his goal was to dutifully fulfill his 1 year commitment, and he accomplished that. They don’t have Travis, Brady Morningstar, or even Withey’s picture up walking across the stage as the number 1 NBA pick, but they certainly have a huge picture of Wiggins walking across the stage as the number 1 pick in the NBA draft in the locker room. Now, that doesn’t mean nearly as much to a KU fan as it does to a KU recruit, but I think it means a lot.
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@KUSTEVE Travis and Withey! Bm, puke!
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You wrote…
So what?
Right now, we have Greene, White, and Svi – or we play smaller as Self says he prefers and Selden is more at home in the three spot. And as I saw someone post, where would Greene and White and CF be now if Wiggins never showed up, as far as development?
We have talked ad-nauseam about Green and White potential and so far it has been shown to be just that, potential. They were not able to break into the starting five or even get meaningful playing time and White pretty much was told that there would be little or no meaningful playing time coming, and no one here is anticipating Greene to start…and even the “meaningful minutes” part is iffy at best.
Yes, it is possible that they develop more had Wiggins not come to KU, but do you trade the year Wiggins had for a development year for White and Green with no assurance they will get any better that they are now? I don’t. The expression a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush seems appropriate. With the top player in his class, you are pretty much assured a better than average to superior player (Wiggins was indeed a superior player); however, with two players that were not able to get meaningful playing time…but with potential…you might get lucky and get decent players or more likely you get bupkis. Just sayin’
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t think it’s a slam of Wiggins at all. I really don’t. I just think the items I stated, that you cited, are just facts. I’m curious as to what you dispute in my observation. Better in a another system, soft/finesse, didn’t pass/create, or make others better.
Now, my speculation that we would have been better if Wiggins hadn’t signed … I certainly understand the counterpoint you, @Kip_McSmithers, @KUSTEVE and @JayHawkFanToo have offered. You just never know, though I think pure logic might be on your side.
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@HighEliteMajor well I disagree and it really doesn’t matter what I say, you are always right! Right? I will always be thrilled that wigs was a Jayhawk.
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@Kip_McSmithers If that worse case came true, I guess I’d become an even bigger Badger fan!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Nice response …
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“Wiggins set the freshman scoring record at KU (previously hed by Danny Manning), was one of the 10 finalist for player of the year and was the top defender on the team…how can that be a negative thing?”
I’m a big Wiggins fan and I’m glad he came to Kansas. We’ll reap the reward for years.
All I said was he thwarted development of other players because Wiggins had to carry the load while the others were mostly spectators. When Wiggins had the ball, everyone stopped playing and started watching. That is a big reason why Wiggins didn’t have more assists. No one was open!
All the returning players would have had to step up more if Wiggins wasn’t around last year. That would have put them a leg up on this year.
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@Kip_McSmithers Kip, nice analysis. That’s about how I see last season without Wiggins too. There was ZERO risk in having him on the that young team, or–frankly–any team, young or otherwise.
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@drgnslayr You said – “All I said was he thwarted development of other players because Wiggins had to carry the load while the others were mostly spectators. When Wiggins had the ball, everyone stopped playing and started watching.”
That is true.
Now, I wouldn’t say that other guys were never open … I know you’re trying to be kind to Mr. Wiggins. But this scene played out all season. I recall folks saying that Self wanted him to drive and get fouled. Sure. But I’m sure Self didn’t say, “Hey, Andrew, you know those guys that are open when you drive, the ones whose defenders collapse on you time and time again … don’t pass to them.”
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Good observation. I would counter that we knew going in that Wiggins was a finisher first and foremost. He never displayed great ball handling and passing skills as a prep player. He wasn’t Lebron. He was an athletic finisher on the wing. He wasn’t a drive and dish guy. He was a drive and dunk guy.
Becoming a distributor is about more than seeing guys open. In the freeze frame you have above it shows Wiggins drawing the collapse and having a wide open teammate on the baseline, hands ready for the dump off and dunk. But look at how Wiggins is holding the ball. He doesn’t have it in a position where he is ready to pass. He has it so that he can go up for a shot, which is what he does here. A natural distributor sees the action before it happens and knows that as the defense collapses to him, he will have a small pocket to throw a quick bounce pass into. In the freeze frame you have above, a distributor wouldn’t even have the ball at this moment. It would be bouncing up off the floor from that bounce pass and into the waiting hands of Embiid for the dunk.
Wiggins doesn’t see the floor like that yet. He sees the lane for the drive. He doesn’t see the pocket for the assist yet. That is the part of his game that has to improve.
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I agree with you guys… Wiggins was his own worst enemy because when you never feed out of the squeeze teams quickly learn that and feel more at ease to increase the squeeze.
We all remember that freeze frame and many complained that Wiggins didn’t pass it. That wasn’t really the typical situation when he got the ball. But other guys were open sometimes and if he had found a few of them perhaps more of them would have fought to get open when he drove the ball.
Hard to say if players just felt like coach wanted Wiggins to finish or they just knew Wiggins wasn’t going to pass out of it… whichever the case, the result was guys mostly watching him do his thing.
That part wasn’t good for any of those guys to learn… it is a fundamental breakdown of the team concept.
This year, every guy out there has to realize he is a potential scoring option, and everyone should look for the open guy. That’s what it is going to take to win.
“He wasn’t a drive and dish guy. He was a drive and dunk guy.”
I think that was Wiggins biggest problem. He accepted that role as the drive and dunk guy. He wasn’t even that. He became so cautious on his moves to the rack that he rarely finished. He should have got his first NBA lesson at Kansas… learn your spots on the floor, master them, run combinations through them, then over time add more spots.
I lost the link, but there is a great link I posted in here last year showing every NBA players plotted shooting spots on the floor. It is amazing to see how so many players cluster their shots on just a few spots.
Just about every time Wiggins drove the ball, it looked to be out of desperation and without ideas on how to finish out the drive. His anxiety got the best of him and made it appear that his ball handling skills were worse than they really were. He was not a great ball handler, but he was better than he showed.
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@drgnslayr “He accepted that role as the drive and dunk guy. He wasn’t even that. He became so cautious on his moves to the rack that he rarely finished.”
I don’t remember whether or not I commented on that in this forum or not, or if I just thought it - but towards the end of the season, after he drove and threw the ball away for the 250th time - I said " That dude must have the smallest hands of anyone in college ball" or something to that effect. I’m not trying to bash, but he did lose the ball - a lot.
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@HighEliteMajor I told you, you are always right!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Ah, quite clever; and did I tell ya that Self didn’t adjust vs. Stanford …
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Seemed like he had small hands, but it really was his anxiety that created most of those TOs where the ball slipped out.
If you look back at some of those plays pay close attention to Wig’s eyebrows. He was a very expressive player (with his face) and his eyebrows would pull up so high they almost touched his forehead hairline!
Wiggins is a super classy guy. He struggled a lot more at Kansas than people think because he masked things to keep everything positive… but he couldn’t hide the anxiety on his face when he attempted most of those drives.
I felt like we botched his development. He shouldn’t have tried to force everything right to the rim. He should have been pulling up more and tried to master a couple of spots on the floor. It would have relieved the pressure off him to perform and he would have ended up having more successful finishes at the rim. Parker was a lot more polished and he better utilized different places to score on the floor besides just at the rim.
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@drgnslayr damn, you need to be a d1 eyebrow reader, maybe even w/the NBA! And to think, we, KU, botched the #1 recruit’s development! Recruits should all be running away! Maybe these recruits could be developed on the team that hires you for eyebrow reading! How 'bout a place w/unibrow? Great test for your expertise?
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@HighEliteMajor and Embiid and shepherd…
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This post is deleted!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Here’s just one view from a scout regarding Wiggins and really the (common) belief that our system is a tight one, the entire link is below. The first paragraph is related to system. That’s not saying that a “system” approach is bad in trying to win games, though. It obviously isn’t. But it undeniably can impact the things kids can do on the floor. It’s a give and take.
Scout 3: In general, interesting kid. In fairness to him he played in a very restricted system at Kansas. All interchangeable parts with designated spots, a lot of structure. When he got the ball, there wasn’t a lot of room to create. He didn’t force things, dealt with it well, but sometimes it hurt his rep. Not anywhere near ready, mentally, to take things over, which is unfair to say at this stage. Game isn’t to the level of his athleticism. Humble, coachable, a positive kid, all good things.
Needs go-to moves. He doesn’t have them yet. He has a high dribble. This is normal for a kid his age. Even Kobe and T-Mac struggled out of high school with go-to moves.
He needs to add a whole bunch of other stuff to be the scorer people think he can be. He needs to forget shooting 3s. His shot isn’t great, but it isn’t broken. It’s not as bad as Kidd-Gilchrist where you say, “Where do we start?”
Great natural movement. An NBA coach can still play him right away because he can defend. He defends the wings in isolation, which is extremely valuable. Physically he can do this right away.
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@HighEliteMajor keep beating it-the horse that is! Wigs has moved on and so am I!
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"damn, you need to be a d1 eyebrow reader, maybe even w/the NBA! "
I kid you not, I used to do a Wiggins imitation driving to the hole with my eyebrows lifted as high as possible and my mouth open wide with a grimace pulling all the skin back on my face.
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@drgnslayr I definitely believe you!
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Pretty solid scouting report on Wigs. He’s not quite ready to take over the league… but if he stays healthy he’ll continue to improve and surely he’ll have the right people around to help him develop his offense. He does need the go-to moves… that is what I’ve been saying about him pinpointing a few good spots on the floor to make as his base scoring area.
Kobe was a good example. Then he nailed down both corners of the FT line and started ripping teams apart. He may be the right guy for Wigs to zone in on… especially how Kobe found the discipline to not try to take everything to the hole later on to save his body. Both of these guys have good verticals and Kobe learned not only to create scoring space on his J by using his body and quickness… sometimes he just flat out extended his vertical and shot over most of the league. That’s a tough thing to do… to extend to your highest vertical and hit shots. He also had one of the best fade-away J’s the league has ever seen. He earned a lot of trips to the FT line because defenders started expecting his fade-away and then he would change to a high vertical, catching the defender smacking all over his arms while he still went higher and hit the shot, too.
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@Crimsonorblue22 LOLOLOL…Mr Ed taking a snooze, perhaps?
