One two many beers
Was listening to 810 am today and the subject of the Oklahoma Thunder playing so poorly in the NBA Playoffs came up. Between the lines Kevin K. raised the question (imagine that) what if the Thunder bowed out of the playoffs earlier than expected. Would they look for a new coach and would Bill Self be at the top of that list? Now I know those that 810 am would love nothing more than to see Bill Self leave KU. Hopefully ending the dominance that KU has had over the Big 12.
As much as I would love to think HCBS would never leave KU, the interview made me think. Would HCBS leave KU? and if he did who would we find to replace him? Yes I’ve been drinking. I was at a poker game (which I did quite well), but I couldn’t shake this imaginary scenario. So here I am asking my KU brothers for clarity.
Is it possible if the Thunder job came open would HCBS jump on it? After all it’s his home state, and from everything I read HCBS is a big NBA fan. So with this last beer before I call it a night or is it morning? If HCBS were to take the Thunder coaching job. Who would you want? Who could we get? Is there any coach that we couldn’t get? I’m very interested to hear what you have to say.
@DoubleDD you seem pretty level-headed! I’ve heard the same rumors, saw pics of Self w/KD at Coles wedding. I can’t really thing of anyone for us, other than Larry brown, which is crazy! I like Ollie, didn’t know much about him before this season. Is Manning a possibility? Townsend? There’s probably a longer list of who I wouldn’t want, than who I’d like. You?
There is no way Oklahoma fires Scott Brooks; he is one the better younger coaches in the NBA and has done a great job with the Thunder.
The whole story started with a tweet from Westbrooke’s brother which was promptly erased. Kietzman is a moron that will take anything that could negatively affect KU and make it into a big deal; I would not pay too much attention to anything, KU related, he says.
I agree that Kietzman is an ass, but I wouldn’t be so sure about Brooks’ job being safe. It would be a major disappointment if OKC lost this series to Memphis, and the front office may need a scapegoat to take attention away from the fact that they foolishly traded Harden for practically nothing while he was still on his rookie deal after the 2012 season.
NBA coaches are fairly expendable. In my opinion, there’s Popovich, then Doc, then everyone else. Brad Stevens could be great, but since his job this year was to tank the season, we won’t know for a couple more years. Side tangent - I hope Boston can snag one of the top 3 draft picks. I’d love to see Embiid or Wiggins play there.
If that job was offered to HCBS, he might at least take a meeting. That would have to be a pretty tempting job. It’s close to home, they have passionate fans, he’d get to coach the second-best player in the world during his prime, plus he’d have a stubborn, ballsy, athletic PG, which he loves. Throw in some solid defensive guys like Ibaka and Sefolosha, plus a KU great (Collison), and you’ve got a good shot at instant success as an NBA coach, with titles being a possibility right away. Seems like an attractive offer.
I think OKC will beat Memphis, and Brooks will keep his job, but unfortunately we have to accept that our coach is on NBA radars, and probably gets plenty of offers that we don’t hear about. The combination of the right offer and the right time may one day take him there. Personally, I don’t think he’ll seriously consider leaving until Tyler graduates, but you never know.
I also think he wants another NCAA championship pretty badly, but hopefully he can check that off about a year from now!
Five years ago (or so) I would have bet money that the University of Kansas would have been Bill Self’s last coaching job. He didn’t seem like an NBA guy to me and where do you go from Kansas? Who gives a crap about your alma mater (especially if it’s OSU) - if it’s not a great coaching job.
Now, I’m not so sure. Who wants to go through the hassle of the whole OAD ordeal year after year? If they actually do change it to two years, maybe that will change things. But as it is now, these coaches have to do an incredible amount of travelling, studying, butt kissing - you don’t think every D-1 coach has brown lips - ask the OAD’s parents, coaches, friends and relatives.
If I were a college coach today and the NBA was knocking on my door, I’d be looking through the peep-hole, pulling back the curtains and cracking the door open a little.
@nuleafjhawk I think coach Self loves the traveling, butt-kissing and the challenges. After watching the Portland game last pm, I wondered what is the purpose of the man on the bench w/suit and tie on?
@Crimsonorblue22 To bring home an obscenely large paycheck for doing next to nothing!
@nuleafjhawk besides that! Ha just can’t see Self being happy w/that. He makes a good living, is a “celeb” already. But, I am a red pill taker!
It’s definitely a different job…they’re probably more similar to baseball managers than college bball coaches. Managing minutes and egos is the name of the game. 82 games is freaking brutal, even on a 22-year old body, so in order to have a shot in the postseason, coaches need to make sure their best players don’t break down during the regular season.
That’s why Popovich is the absolute best. He’s probably the only NBA coach that I would say has “a program.” That program is designed to withstand the grind of the season, and then peak in the playoffs. That’s why his 37-year old legend played some of the best ball of his career in last year’s Finals, and also why his bench is prepared for those moments. Popovich would rather lose in January than play his stars more than their allotted minutes. Remember when he got fined for sitting Ginobli, Parker, and Duncan for a TNT prime time game? Nobody questioned that when they were within one shot of a title last year.
Anyway, enough gushing about Pop…I think Self is an attractive NBA prospect because he too is capable of building a “program” at that level. Damn near everyone that knows his name respects him, and he knows when to take control and when to say “okay, go make a play.” NBA guys love that. It’s like any job…nobody wants to be micro-managed, but at the same time, employees need direction in order to be successful. There are few in the game that can compare to Self when it comes to managerial skill.
“There is no way Oklahoma fires Scott Brooks; he is one the better younger coaches in the NBA and has done a great job with the Thunder.”
I totally agree! Brooks is solid and has a bright future in the league. He is also becoming a “known entity” whereas Self is a completely “unknown entity” in the NBA. There is no evidence that he can translate his philosophy and be successful in the league.
Right on, concerning Popovich. And right on about his “program.”
@Virgil_Caine good pts!
Self teams also get high marks for efficiency statistics, which would have to popular in the new age of analytics. His first shot field goal defense has been great for many years, but this year KU was one of the top FG% teams as well.
OKC might work well, because they play more with traditional bigs that don’t get a ton of shots away from the basket.
Harden wanted superstar pay and OKC is/was already paying the max to Durant and Westbrook and they wold have busted the salary cap even higher with the corresponding penalty. When you factor Ibaka’s and Perkins’ salaries, OKC just could not afford that many highly paid players; after all, OKC is a very small market and does not get the added revenue that teams in big markets such as the Lakers get.They should have gotten rid of Perkins instead, who I believe is one of the more overpaid players in the league, but I will guess his contract prevented that.The trade did allow OKC to shed some players it was not using (including Aldrich) and get some players and draft picks in return. Keep in mind that if OKC did not trade Harden they would lost him to free agency,
@Virgil_Caine We all concur KK is an absolute KSU butthead of the first degree, but if Bill were offered that gig with THAT talent-he’d be foolish not to give it his interest. Does he want to travel virtually every day for 8 months a year? Who knows. Is the money that much better? Is the relief man from recruiting whispering his name? Can’t say. But if he ever does want to go to the L, that would be, hands down, the quickest & most luxurious ride available…like a flippin Rolls Bently trimmed out in 24 carat with a white gloved chauffer to roll out the red carpet. So much more enticing than RC’s San Antone with Duncan, Mano, & Parker at their twilight & a rebuild on the horizon. Or any rebuild at all for that matter. I think he’d take it if the team at present were the prize. How the H could ya’ pass that up if you ever did want to sky out to the L? That, fellow rats, is the 64 thousand dollar question. Plus. on top of that, I have absolutely no clue who could fill those shoes either.
Coaching choices for KU:
Jay Wright– Cant recruit a quality bigman, but looks George-Clooney-good in a suit. Just the guy if you have a collection of well-heeled, high-dollar female donors potentially in your alumni base, maybe? And he just beat Bill Self…
John Calipari– (just included for chuckles…). Could he duplicate the recruiting at KU that he did at Memphis and Kentucky?
Mark Turgeon–(just included because many KU posters have a habit of bringing this name up, every year since his WSU team made the sweet16 once-upon-time). Really, what has he done? Surprisingly, his Maryland recruiting class is like Top5 this coming season. Let’s see what he does with it. Overall, I’m not a fan of Roy ball. And Billy Self routinely beat the hell out of Mark’s aTm teams nightly. Turgeon’s aTm was the ugliest ball in the BigXII.
Billy Gillispie– Yes, back from the blacklist…and yes, I’m just kidding. I hope he conquers his demons, but I think he’s done coaching. Maybe like race car drivers…that window of peak productivity has passed Gillispie by. He cannot be the same guy he was at aTm. Should have never went to Kentucky.
Thad Matta–Quietly go see his W-L % in his 10yrs at OhioSt…its better than Roy’s, and 2nd only to Bill Self. Only issue is twofold: He cannot beat Bill Self. He cannot win the big one. Decent recruiter.
Tom Crean– His greatest player was Dwayne Wade. Enough said. Still have doubts that he isnt be the guy? Nope. See Indiana this season: cant see them, well go look over the edge of the cliff. That sort of pendulum does not happen to Bill Self. Was Indiana in the top25? Where’s their “reload”?
Billy Donovan–Interesting idea. 2 NC winner…with same set of guys. Hasnt made a Final4 since then, has he? This year’s flameout was worse than Self’s, as we knew without Embiid we only had half a chance (too many flaws), but see, Florida cannot say that…they were a solid team, 26win streak, solid guardplay…and blew it in the E8.
Sean Miller–Who’s better: Archie or Sean? Why didnt AZ make the Final 4? When was the last time AZ made a FinaLute Four? (hint) This isnt your daddy’s Arizona…its worse. Sean Miller coaching example: See his best recruit’s FT%, which was an absolute disgrace to Gordon’s team, coaches past & present, and to the game of basketball. Even Collison and Langford can laugh at how bad Gordon’s FTs were (47%). OK, that wasnt funny. Maybe Calipari can laugh, since that’s a top5 recruit he didnt have to try to teach FT-shooting to…lol!
Jerrod Haase–Another KU kid. Well, he played tough. But he is a Roy disciple. Too little data. Must watch UAB’s trajectory…
Shaka Smart–Surprised myself with this choice…He could be a savvy hire, able to recruit better with a royalty school’s name…but if he hasnt done much lately, then his one-hit-wonder season with Skeen & Rodriguez makes you wonder how good his system really is. His VCU team got blown to bits in the 2013 Tourney with a 25pt loss…Is he starting to look more like Ben Jacobson at UNI? (one-hit wonder. Where is Jacobsen now? Oh, yeah, back to anonymouus in the brutal MVC…).
Danny Manning– Nothing but questions. Yes, he got Tulsa back to the Tourney. But that’s his one achievement. Watch Wake Forrest closely. Apparently he runs Self’s system. And he spent 8+ yrs learning it from the master. And he should be able to recruit bigs to shine in it…Why doesnt Evan go play for his dad? What does Evan know…?
Gregg Marshall–Tough, team style of play. Defensive intensity. Recruiting is difficult to WichitaState, but he’s had a formidable no-name team the past 2 seasons. Almost definitely underachieved this season, but welcome to life in the BigDance, Gregg. Could he recruit to KU? This would be the final straw for all the recent Shocker fans who’ve come out of the woodwork the last 2yrs…is if their coach leaves for KU! He did, after all, turn down UCLA (wisely), mostly because the money offered really didnt offset the cost of living in LA. So what would he have done if some school proposed an even better offer? Shocker Nation is on borrowed time, folks. Not saying Marshall is the best guy for KU, but an intruiguing pick in the up-and-comer crowd. Better than Shaka?
Brad Stevens–this is an intruiging choice, brought up several times by posters in our life-after-Self scenarios. Fact is, his recruiting is absolutely suspect. His rise was meteoric, but without anything except the 2 F4 runs, much like Donovan’s back2back runs. But at least Billy Donovan can recruit better than Brad Stevens. Stevens may be a decent coach…but fact is he hasnt shown recruiting, and even his experienced squads got beat in the big game. Twice. Not a Brad Stevens fan, because I dont see repetetive, reproducible excellence with several sets of different players.
Lon Kruger–Sheahon Zenger brings it full circle, KSU AD hires KSU Men’s basketball guy to coach KU. Fundamentals coach. Fair recruiter. Program builder. Ok, I’m only joking here…
Compared to…Bill Self– A fundamentals guy. A proven A-rated recruiter. Repeatedly has gotten deep Tournament runs with several sets of players at 3 different schools (Tulsa, Illinois, KU). He just learned some things about his system and its limits being exposed by frosh and inexperienced execution. Self is a stubborn guy…but we shall see what this last year has done for his approach and preparation. Especially Tournament prep. He will always get armchair-QB’d by his fan base, as any coach at KU surely will. To this day, 10+ yrs later, many Illini remain utterly disgusted with KU for stealing their coach…and Cliff Alexander just put some more salt in that old wound. Why do the Illini still miss Bill Self? Havent they seen our killerB results, the early exits, Self getting slapped around by Izzo 3 times straight? Why all this angst over Bill Self?
@ralster he better not go!! Gregg Marshall, that would be low! Not a fan of the chicken hawk caller. What about Jacques Vaughn ? I kinda like the Virginia coach too. Self can’t leave! Would you consider any asst coaches
Tim Miles is the best young coach in the game right now. He doesn’t get a lot of press right now, but in a couple more years, everyone will have heard of him. I’m not sure he is KU’s type of coach, and Zenger is not enough of a visionary to go after someone like Miles, but he would be an awesome hire.
@SlickRockJayhawk Nebraska coach? I’ve heard good things about him. Where has he been?
@Crimsonorblue22 He was at CSU for 5 years or so and took them from absolutely horrible to the NCAA tournament (beat Mizzou and lost to national champs Louisville in 2013). Before that I think he was at NDSU and was always upsetting D-1 teams.
Agree on the Virginia coach…but what happened to that team in the BigDance? Everyone points to Virginia’s 30+ win season…but Self’s been averaging that, so anyone posting “30+” had better show more than just that. That is PRECISELY what has KU’s “realistic unrealistic fans” (to quote Self) simply wanting more than a 2nd round exit…irrespective of the conf. championship or the 30wins. So the fans themselves have narrowed the focus to those that can “do more than a 30win season”.
Another thought would be Tad Boyle at Colorado.
Gregg Marshall simply would not be as tactful or choosy with his live quotes as Bill Self has been. Marshall has absolutely come across as brash and aggressive.
@ralster I like tad Boyle, too. Nobody measures up! If Marshall was at KU would he play WSU? Probably Missouri too! GAG! What do you think of Jacques Vaughn?
My first choice would be Brad Stevens and I don’t agree with the not able to recruit part. For a small school like Butler, he did extremely well. Butler does not get the the A-list players, they get what is left after the elite programs have had their pick. At a program like KU he would be competing for and getting top players.
@ralster Most of my replies to any post are satire or just straight BS, but this is the truth - if Thad Matta EVER becomes the coach of Kansas - I will have watched my last college basketball game.
@ralster-"Another thought would be Tad Boyle at Colorado.’
Think he’d take it?
Rex Walters, making strides and doing well as a HC.
Doc Rivers, the Clippers owner is just pushing him out.
Cinderella picks, dark horse, slim to non and slim just left the building pick.
Donovan would be my top choice, if he’d leave Florida.
The Tim Miles suggestion is really interesting.
@nuleafjhawk Ya, personally, I’m not a big fan of Thad Matta. He has a stellar win%, but there isnt much that excites me about OhioState’s playstyle. And 2nd year bigman Jared Sullinger got exposed for not knowing what to do in a doubleteam/trap in the post, executed by Self’s veteran players in that Tourney game. That comes down to coaching and experience. I was shocked that we made Sullinger look so bad. And sent OhioState packing from the Tourney 2 straight years. Tyshawn Taylor and Elijah Johnson made Aaron Craft look BAD. As in outclassed, and outcoached.
Tad Boyle is a good guy. But he’s got to show a few years of DOMINANCE in his conference, with conference titles, and maybe an Elite8 AND a Final 4 run to be considered. How is his recruiting?
KU AD’s challenge is to find someone who has “proved” something at a high level, in college ball.
Here’s an idea: Maybe this season’s challenges and lackluster team forces Self to either GET them up to standard, or throw other in-game elements into his own coaching (like trapping zones, or 1-3-1, or 3-2, etc…or quickly inbounding after a made bucket…to push the pace). Whatever we do, we have to do it better than we did this season.
@DoubleDD haven’t heard from you since your initial post! How bad was the hangover?
Jacque Vaughn is an interesting thought. He is a Roy guy, but I dont know what playstyle he coaches. Since he played in the NBA, surely he has a grasp of many different playstyles…maybe that fact gives him an edge?
@DoubleDD I think its kind of fun to speculate on who else could coach our Jayhawks team.
Manning would be the top candidate IMO. So would Larry. I would LOVE to have him back at KU. But he is nearing the end of his tenure as a coach. Dooley would be good to have back. Ollie from UConn would be awesome. Im a big fan of Shaka. Yeah he beat us in '11 when we should have won it all but I don’t hold that against him. Dude can flat out coach and he is young. When his career ends, he will be one of the better ones.
@Crimsonorblue22 I’m good
@Crimsonorblue22 – I’m a bit of a conspiracy theorist so sometimes a throw these scenarios around. I really believe that HCBS will never leave KU for another college job. He has found heaven and he knows it. However I do think he has an itch for the NBA game. So I do believe if the right situation presented itself and it would have to be perfect. HCBS would at the very least consider it. That is why this Thunder situation kind of bothers or at the very least makes me wonder. The Thunder are loaded so it would be a ready made team for a new coach. Not to mention Oklahoma is HCBS’s home state.
As for potential KU coach’s if God forbid HCBS were to leave. I think it’s more about who we can’t get as it is who we can get. Meaning there is only a few coach’s we couldn’t get but every other coach couldn’t pack their bags fast enough. So here my list of coach’s we couldn’t get (and maybe don’t want).
Coach Cal of UK – I do believe Cal would take the next big thing in a heart beat. He has no loyalty. However lets face it. Moving to KU would be lateral move for him, and he’s not a good fit for the KU faithful.
Coach K of Duke – The Duke faithful are going to build statues of him in Duke. Do I need to say more?
Coach Roy of UNC – Yea I’m not even going there. However I bet there is a part of Old Roy he wishes he was still coaching at KU.
Coach Boehiem of Syracuse – The guy has been coaching there since Noah boarded the ark. He’s not going anywhere.
Coach Izzo – Michigan st – Like HCBS he found a peace of heaven. Though I don’t think Michigan st is on the same level as KU. I do believe it would be a lateral move for Izzo.
Well that’s it. I really can’t think of another coach that would be off limits to KU. I think even Pitno would be interested in the KU job.
@ralster Man, I loved Jacque Vaughn ! He was a very solid player for us and an all around good guy. Part of me would love to see him on the sidelines for us some day, but the part of me that sees his record as an NBA coach thinks maybe not.
I don’t follow pro ball, so maybe it’s just the team that he has to work with right now. I do know that Jacque is a very smart man. He was a two time Academic All-American at Kansas and the Academic All-American of the Year in 1997.
However, I don’t see him coaching for the Clippers in the near future…
I don’t think Self jumps to the NBA. He has no NBA experience, either as a player, executive, coach or assistant. I think that puts him at a significant disadvantage to other candidates like Hoiberg.
I also think Self’s style of coaching is more suited to the college game. He’s more of a style coach than a matchup coach. The NBA is all about matchups and if you cannot exploit matchups that you have an advantage in, you will not last as an NBA coach. As we have criticized on this very board, that is probably Self’s greatest weakness as a coach.
In the NBA, if you cannot stop a certain set, they will run that set over and over again until you either stop it or they score 1000 points on you. That’s just the way it works. College coaches never do that. They may run something once or twice, but they won’t run the exact same set over and over until the end of time just to show that you can’t stop that set. It’s rare for Self to keep feeding a player because the opposition just cannot guard that player.
I think the other thing that would keep Self out of the NBA is job security. If he were to get a job like OKC, they would probably keep him there for a few years, but if he didn’t win within 2-3 years, there would be a lot of pressure on him. Durant and Westbrook are both 25. Ibaka is 24. If you go 3 more years without a title all of those guys will be closing in on 30. You aren’t going to get much help in the draft because you will always be in the playoffs, so if you can’t win with those guys, you are probably headed for a rebuild.
The Orlando Magic, the house Dwight Howard built…and tore down. Have you seen the Magic roster? Hard to win with a team where the two top players are Arron Afflalo and Jameer Nelson and their top PF is Kyle O’Quinn (he of Norfolk State beats MU fame), and whose entire payroll is less than the combined salary of James and Wade .
Considering the players he has, it is amazing the Magic win any games at all.
@JayHawkFanToo so what’s your opinion of Jacque Vaughn for a coach?
I think you nailed it on Self, and his potential in the league. He’s a college coach, and it is a different game than the next level. He would have to loosen his concepts of being a teacher of a rigid style and convert to being a coach that does whatever it takes to win.
Everything gets exposed in the league. A small weakness in your system gets pounded over and over again (just as you stated in your post).
If there is a college coach that is trying to groom his coaching towards the NBA it would be Calipari. He’s changed his approach in the last few years and he doesn’t count on any one thing to develop success (except for recruiting the best talent he can). He builds his scheme on what he has, not on a rigid format. I’m still not sure he has the needed seasoning to make it in the league. As you stated, it does help having plenty of experience and his experience in the league was short and sour.
Coaches like Hoiberg and Ollie are coaches I would expect to make the jump soon (and possibly succeed). Fred’s game is all NBA.
Most of the legendary college coaches… Coach K, Izzo, Donovan… I think Donovan played one bench year for the Knicks… that is the total experience of NBA basketball. Self doesn’t add experience to that mix. All these guys are college coaches and I wouldn’t give any of them much of a chance to make it in the league.
Hoiberg had 10 years in the league. Ollie played… what… 15 years in the NBA? Both of these guys could coach 360s around all those legendary college coaches.
He has had Gregg Popovich as his mentor. He ended his career at San Antonio and was hand picked by Popovich to be his assistant, so he obviously must have seen something in him and I think that with decent personnel he could be very successful; he is a bright individual. I think he would be a leading contender when Self retires, no question about it.
@JayHawkFanToo good to hear! Don’t hear much about him. I do know a bright point guard is generally a good coach! I wish we could hear more about our ex Jhawks. Thx!
@JayHawkFanToo found this article, maybe you have seen it?
Excellent read… thanks!
You articulated my points better than I did!
Preparation in the NBA is key. For example, look at Memphis and Oklahoma City playing in the playoffs right now.
Tonight’s matchup between those two teams will be the 18th game between them since November 2012 (just 18 months ago). 4 regular season games each season because they are in the same division, plus 5 games in last year’s playoffs and 4 more so far this year going into tonight. That’s familiarity. Gasol, Randolph, Conley, Prince, Allen, Davis, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Collison, Jackson, Fisher, Sefolosha, have played in most of those games. The stuff that work in Game 3 of last year’s playoffs has been analyzed and shut down by now.
In college, you see a team at most 4 times in a season. It’s unlikely you would see a team more than 10 times in a 4 year career in college. All of the preparation is general because you are preparing to face general opponents - Texas today, TCU next Wednesday, West Virginia on Saturday, with generic players that don’t necessarily have otherworldly skills. In the NBA you have OKC (and Durant) tonight in the regular season, Carmelo and the Knicks two days from now, on the road for Lebron and the Heat this weekend before swinging through and facing Atlanta and Charlotte on a back to back next week. And you have to prepare for every specific opponent because even though Durant, Carmelo and Lebron are all SF, they have different offensive games and if you try to use the same gameplan to stop all three chances are two of them shred you. In the playoffs, you see the same team over and over, so you have to adapt your gameplan every night. It’s just a different preparation (and pressure) and I don’t think Self’s coaching style or skills play to that.
The only coach that has been successful at both consistently has been Larry Brown, and I can’t figure out how he pulls that off.