Coronavirus Thread: Boy, guys. I really just don't know. Best to keep tabs.
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Umm, can you point me to that reference about the CDC losing the court case? My son has autism and I’ve done a LOT of research and found absolutely no link between vaccines and the disease and I think it’s very dangerous and irresponsible to suggest otherwise unless all that earlier research is somehow proven wrong.
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There’s a case in, yes Mizzou, where the daughter I believe has a confirmed case. The rest of the family was to stay home for 14 days. The dad decides to take the other daughter to a school function. Ewww!
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@Crimsonorblue22
we can’t fix stupid.
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Jesus. There is no link between vaccines and autism. The original study was fraught with awful and avoidable errors and the doctor lost his medical license for incompetence and fraud.
There’s no study that specifically evaluates the claim “no link between vaccines in autism” because you can’t exactly run an RCT with the MMR vaccine or something similar. That would defeat the entire purpose of the vaccination. The group that filed the lawsuit is essentially asking for studies that would’ve violated about every IRB rule on the planet and never could actually be performed. The best approach we have are case control, which is imperfect. This takes about 3 minutes of googling to figure out. Top result was a meta-analysis with over 1 million subjects and found absolutely zero association between vaccinations and autism. Spreading bullshit rumors and pseudo-science is very bad during a public health event.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X14006367?via%3Dihub
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Vaccinate your children.
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Yes and thank you!!
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Two problems with Corona virus as I see them right now, with the info we have.
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Seems to be much more highly contagious than the regular flu. The initial spread was so fast that the spread alone was alarming.
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The death rate for those over the age of 60 is very high. Yeah, people get the flu every year, and people die from the flu every year. But its not like people over 80 have a 1 in 7 chance of dying from the flu if they get it each year, which is what Corona virus is currently at here in the U.S. according to available numbers.
The fact that it is highly contagious, and also unusually fatal for those over a certain age is what got my attention. This isn’t pneumonia or the flu for those over 60 or so. It’s unusually dangerous, which is strange and also very concerning.
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Well at least I feel they handled the docking of the Cruise ship in Oakland today pretty well. !st peope of were the 21 confirmed cases they came off 1st and taken to hospitals , then the remaining passengers are to come off and will be put in quarinteed for two weeks , and the Crusise ship staff will remain at seas for their two week period to see if they catch virus. - -Bout all you can do. Had about a 10 acre section roped/fenced off when passengers departed /docked. -Would say about they can do at this point.
Heard that Italy is shutting completely down. Entire Nation now - -nobody in – nobody out. - -THATS SERIOUS FOR SURE
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So I was talking to a customer of mine (older man who just had kidney surgery a week ago) when he mentioned an old hired hand of his stopped in; hadn’t seen him in 16 years. He had been living in Nebraska, but the last few years has been living north of Seattle in Washington. He felt bad that his wife and kids were too sick to make the trip… ugg
️ Common sense would go a long way.
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I remain open minded. I followed along with the doctors on my dad until they almost killed him. I found a wellness doctor and we figured out what meds we could pull him off and he is doing well today, very stable 87 yr old.
I’m not an anti vaxxer. I also don’t just follow the herd.
My biggest concern… why no double-blind studies? It’s the gold standard used for all new pharma medications. Why not for vaccinations?
Most vaccines were formulated in the 60s. How much technology do we use today that is stuck in the 60s? At that time they were not focused on many of the chemicals used. I have little doubt that they could come up with much safer formulas today, also more effective. But that costs a fortune to retest. Our kids’ health evidently isn’t worth the expense.
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@justanotherfan said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
The fact that it is highly contagious, and also unusually fatal for those over a certain age is what got my attention. This isn’t pneumonia or the flu for those over 60 or so. It’s unusually dangerous, which is strange and also very concerning.
Pneumonia and influenza are extremely dangerous for the elderly and for those with a compromised immune system.
It’s unknown what the death rate is compared to other influenza because of inadequate testing, more than likely non-testing on symptoms because of the belief it is another flu, and the fact that a high % of those with the virus show no symptoms so are never tested and included in the statistics.
It does appear to have some symptoms acting a bit different from other known influenza. Those exact symptoms are still being evaluated because of the newness of this virus (at least the newness of the discovery).
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
I remain open minded. I followed along with the doctors on my dad until they almost killed him. I found a wellness doctor and we figured out what meds we could pull him off and he is doing well today, very stable 87 yr old.
I’m not an anti vaxxer. I also don’t just follow the herd.
My biggest concern… why no double-blind studies? It’s the gold standard used for all new pharma medications. Why not for vaccinations?
Most vaccines were formulated in the 60s. How much technology do we use today that is stuck in the 60s? At that time they were not focused on many of the chemicals used. I have little doubt that they could come up with much safer formulas today, also more effective. But that costs a fortune to retest. Our kids’ health evidently isn’t worth the expense.
Vaccines don’t cause autism. There isn’t a single rigorous study that shows that result. The only rigorous studies we have on the topic explicitly find NO LINK. This isn’t difficult or that complicated. Like I said above, doing RCT’s on vaccines we’ve already established as safe would violate every ethics standard we have as researchers.
I’m in education policy, and I couldn’t do a double blind study on assigning kids to not learn math and see how they develop. That would be child abuse. Same principle here. You can’t randomize kids to not get vaccines when there’s a substantial risk to both them and society.
Technically, it’s the principle of clinical equipoise. With new drugs, we have no clinical evidence the new drug works at scale in humans, so we can do RCT’s since both treatment and control groups are in equipoise. In the case of vaccines, we’re deliberately exposing both the research subjects and society to risks we KNOW we can mitigate to almost zero, so we don’t have equipoise. It’s not about money, it’s about fidelity to the scientific method and ethics.
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Most of these vaccines have been around for decades. It wouldn’t be too difficult to form double-blind studies giving a reasonable level of confidence based just on those who refuse vaccination comparing with those who do.
The CDC had a perfect opportunity to shoot the anti vaxxers in the head by showing their mountain of studies and they didn’t do it because those studies must not exist. They have also had to deal with a whistleblower employee stating they rigged some of their stats. Seems like they would love to end all of this controversy.
I’m skeptical because I watched the system kill my mother… almost kill my dad… and turned my star athlete cousin into a drug addict by prescribing him on extended use of opioids.
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
Most of these vaccines have been around for decades. It wouldn’t be too difficult to form double-blind studies giving a reasonable level of confidence based just on those who refuse vaccination comparing with those who do.
The CDC had a perfect opportunity to shoot the anti vaxxers in the head by showing their mountain of studies and they didn’t do it because those studies must not exist. They have also had to deal with a whistleblower employee stating they rigged some of their stats. Seems like they would love to end all of this controversy.
That’s not a valid research design since it’s wrought with selection bias. I don’t know what the CDC’s case is exactly but check out my post above. They even maintain a page full of evidence vaccines are safe: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/publications/index.html
We know with absurd degrees of confidence vaccines don’t cause autism. The study that opened the door to that line of thinking was obviously fraudulent. The study was retracted and the PI lost his medical license for publishing indefensible garbage.
The burden of proof is on people that have a causal claim to show one. If there is one, show it. I gave you an observational study with over 1 million subjects and found ZERO effects. Disprove it or trust the medical consensus. It’s not groupthink, it’s sound science.
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I’m with you and I question Wakefield’s work on this.
And you are right that there could be selection bias. But that could be countered by increasing the study size. These studies are performed every single day in all areas of science. That’s why I mentioned confidence level.
Why wouldn’t the CDC reference that study in their court case? There are thousands of studies that are not well accepted by the science world. I think Wakefield would fall in that category.
Scientific studies (in general) have lost credibility over the past 40 years since so much of it is not performed by academic institutions who are unbiased. Today, most studies have a commercial client who is paying for a specific result through commercial organizations posing as real science. So much of grant-based science has dried up as the government has pulled budget dollars away from real science while lifting the bar for what is considered “acceptable science”. It can cost $1 billion to bring a new med on the market. That limits the players to just a handful and they can’t afford to invest in unbiased studies.
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
I’m with you and I question Wakefield’s work on this.
And you are right that there could be selection bias. But that could be countered by increasing the study size. These studies are performed every single day in all areas of science. That’s why I mentioned confidence level.
Why wouldn’t the CDC reference that study in their court case? There are thousands of studies that are not well accepted by the science world. I think Wakefield would fall in that category.
Selection Bias doesn’t go away with additional sample size. In fact, it gets worse (for math reasons I won’t get into). Like I said, we can’t do them because A) we know vaccines are very effective and
there’s no compelling argument to expose FEWER people to them since we know as vaccination rates go down, more people get sick and die. Would violate all the rules of ethics we all subscribe to as professional researchers.We can get away with it in other trials because most diseases aren’t contagious and there’s a much smaller impact on society. For example, if we’re testing an intervention for heart disease, it’s not contagious and benefits are questionable. In this case, vaccines are almost exclusively for communicable diseases and have a big societal impact. Exposing society to measles for a RCT to test MMR is highly unethical (again, equipoise).
I bet they just ignored the case because frankly they have better things to do than fight a case with almost no policy implications from a group of cranks.
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Who would benefit by spending millions and millions to perform an acceptable study proving vaccines have a causal relationship with autism?
Pharma? nope
Parents? yes
Parents can’t afford to run an acceptable study. Our gov can do it, but we don’t have the resources to blow in science any longer.
I’m not totally disagreeing with you. I’m just “questioning authority” and those making billions off of this. I question if they have our interest at heart more than making big cash. Those same players sure didn’t stick up for us while they pushed through Congress the application of opioids, saying they were safe to administer beyond a short term use. We see what happened there! And they knew the addictive behavior beyond extremely short use. But on vaccines, they are angels… hmmmm…
I’m an old-timer who had kids late in life. My kids are not vaccinated yet. I continue to sit on the fence. But what do I risk? A few bumps and a fever? We don’t live in Africa where measles can be a death risk. It’s been ages since someone died in America from measles… in a country of 300+ million.
When I was a kid we had measles parties. That’s how I was “vaccinated.” Kids were put with other kids who had measles so they could get it over with in their youth. Worked for me. Also… it was believed that childhood diseases are there for a purpose; to build immune system.
My kids go to a pediatrician who is a definite believer in vaccination. He told me he wasn’t about to argue with me because my kids are (by far) the healthiest kids in his practice (and he has a huge practice).
My kids have not been sick this entire school year while all their friends at school have been sick 3 - 6 times this year!
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
Who would benefit by spending millions and millions to perform an acceptable study proving vaccines have a causal relationship with autism?
Pharma? nope
Parents? yes
Parents can’t afford to run an acceptable study. Our gov can do it, but we don’t have the resources to blow in science any longer.
I’m not totally disagreeing with you. I’m just “questioning authority” and those making billions off of this. I question if they have our interest at heart more than making big cash. Those same players sure didn’t stick up for us while they pushed through Congress the application of opioids, saying they were safe to administer beyond a short term use. We see what happened there! But on vaccines, they are angels… hmmmm…
That’s a red herring. First, we’ve already done the heavy lifting on vaccine science and found zilch in terms of risk.
Second, Pharma isn’t doing this work. It’s people like me at public universities. Zero dollars go in my pocket when I get a government grant. I spend it all on the study, and that’s what almost all of us do (or else it’s fraud).
Third, parents don’t have the technical know how to do the study. I’m even trained in these methods (PhD candidate at UNC) and wouldn’t feel good about doing a vaccine study. Health just isn’t my thing. I could run an experiment on curriculum, but not vaccines.
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I do respect your posts on this and am considering your point of view.
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
I do respect your posts on this and am considering your point of view.
Please do! I’m not saying you’re a kook or anything like that, you seem like the type to look at things critically, which is good!
It’s an easy topic to get overwhelmed with conflicting information and takes a certain degree of know how to really figure out and filter the wheat from the chaff.
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We live in complex times. All I want is my kids to be safe, and I weigh the risks on both sides.
How much formaldehyde is safe to inject into my kids?
That is just one component found in all (I believe all) vaccines today. It’s a toxin and linked by our government to respiratory disease.
The number of vaccines they give kids today continues to grow. Depending on what a parent selects, that child may receive up to 100 shots.
There has been a huge spike in respiratory disease in children today.
But there fails to be a study done on this possible link.
I can’t answer that question on formaldehyde (which is just one of the toxins in vaccines). When I can feel comfortable with how much toxin I can inject into my children safely I can then feel okay to give them injections (if I believe in the benefits).
If I’m an optimist I believe answers are coming soon on vaccine research where we won’t have to include extreme toxins in vaccines to get the results we want. Sometimes I am optimistic… other times not.
I wanted a PhD in science but it wasn’t offered at my school and I didn’t have the funds to go elsewhere. Had to stick to my academic scholarship. So I stuck it out for my Masters of Science. It required the same PhD work of performing a formidable study, defense before peers and publishing results.
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
We live in complex times. All I want is my kids to be safe, and I weigh the risks on both sides.
How much formaldehyde is safe to inject into my kids?
That is just one component found in all (I believe all) vaccines today. It’s a toxin and linked by our government to respiratory disease.
The number of vaccines they give kids today continues to grow. Depending on what a parent selects, that child may receive up to 100 shots.
There has been a huge spike in respiratory disease in children today.
But there fails to be a study done on this possible link.
I can’t answer that question on formaldehyde (which is just one of the toxins in vaccines). When I can feel comfortable with how much toxin I can inject into my children I can then feel safe to give them injections.
If I’m an optimist I believe answers are coming soon on vaccine research where we won’t have to include extreme toxins in vaccines to get the results we want. Sometimes I am optimistic… other times not.
I wanted a PhD in science but it wasn’t offered at my school and I didn’t have the funds to go elsewhere. Had to stick to my academic scholarship. So I stuck it out for my Masters of Science. It required the same PhD work of performing a formidable study, defense before peers and publishing results.
Well, if it’s formaldehyde you’re worried about, you’ll get a much bigger dose dissecting mice than you did with a vaccine. You’ll get more exposure to aluminum eating Red Lobster than a vaccine. There’s nothing rigorous that suggests vaccines are anything but safe.
https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/20170405003134/https:/www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm
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Thanks for the link!
Red Lobster! I love heavymetal music and my heavymetal shellfish! hahaaa
And thanks for having an extended discussion while keeping it classy and respectful!
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@drgnslayr said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
Thanks for the link!
Red Lobster! I love heavymetal music and my heavymetal shellfish! hahaaa
And thanks for having an extended discussion while keeping it classy and respectful!
Dammit now I want some cheese biscuits 
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My real weakness at RL!
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https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/03/03/business/28reuters-china-health-constellation.html
Whewwww!!!
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Just came across Fox - - Harvard letting Students know - - -NOT to return from Spring break until things are better I guess will be on line class.
A friend of mine told me she has a Nurse that works at a walk in Clinic here in Topeka. Says some idiot walked in and told them he had been in Contact with a person that was infected with the Corona virus he had been around in Florida.
So they had to call the CDC they was told they had to close the clinic for 14days and that anyone that had come within 6 ft of this idiot now could be infected - Cant stress enough if you feel like you might have symptoms they say CALL your doctor do not go in until they get things straightened out ready for you and wash - - wash - - wash your hand take ALL PRECAUTIONS
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Nigeria Is Battling Another Viral Disease
While the new coronavirus is beginning to test the country’s public health system, Lassa fever may have beaten it to the punch. Nigeria’s already gripped by an active outbreak of the severe viral hemorrhagic fever, recording around 774 cases and 132 deaths across 26 states since the beginning of the year. Lassa fever is also far deadlier than coronavirus, with experts estimating a 23 percent mortality rate.
How bad is this epidemic? Statistics suggest it’ll not only surpass last year’s 810 cases, but will also last longer and cause more damage.
Thankfully this one shouldn’t spread as nearly far as Coronavirus. More like MERS
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If you have someone elderly you want to protect… wear masks and gloves around them and keep them at home for the time being.
Purchase black elderberry (sambucol) to give them daily. There have been small studies showing effectiveness against flu symptoms. All foods with heavy antioxidants destroy viruses. I use organic blueberries with my family.
Several vitamins are helpful, including C.
BTW: I’m not a doctor. Everyone should have contact with a quality physician. I’m discussing lifestyle, not medicine.
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Santa Clara California now placing Ban/closing down all large gatherings for the rest of the month
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Leaving KC in a few hours after a weeklong visit with my sister to head back home to Riverside CA. Plane has a stop in Sacramento, oh joy. Hopefully it will be half empty again so I don’t have to sit Right next to some cougher.
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My biggest concern is for my parents (both in their 60s now). If I get coronavirus, I am likely going to be okay because of my age and my typically hardy immune system (knock on wood, of course). But for my parents, they are in the higher risk category because of age, so that is where I am more concerned.
Everyone stay healthy and by all means WASH YOUR HANDS!!!
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Just heard Ivy league cancelling tourney, true?
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@Crimsonorblue22 confirmed per ESPN
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I think people are getting a little too crazy at this point. Over 70% of people in China that got the virus are now recovered and doing fine. That’s where it hit the worst. Sounds like it’s high risk for elders and people with immune disorders. I’d recommend them folks not going out unless it is a must. Everyone else wash their hands often. I bet it blows over by the end of April.
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@StLJhawk I’ll just say it - if 40 to 70% of our population becomes infected this nation will be forever changed.
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@Marco I know, I feel the same way. But like KJay says above, China seems to be mostly over it and I’m hoping for the best here. Maybe it will not be that big a deal here, but seems wiser to at least be open to the idea that it might be. Not overreact, yet not blow it off either.
As with most things, finding balance can be tricky.
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@StLJhawk I’m not in the danger group, but Iove my parents and country. This is very scary stuff.
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@kjayhawks said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
I think people are getting a little too crazy at this point. Over 70% of people in China that got the virus are now recovered and doing fine. That’s where it hit the worst. Sounds like it’s high risk for elders and people with immune disorders. I’d recommend them folks not going out unless it is a must. Everyone else wash their hands often. I bet it blows over by the end of April.
people may or call me what you want I’m 66 yrs old with heart conditions and other underlying conditions I don’t want to become part of that THIRTY % that’s not fine. - The wife and I have are groceries stock piled going to become a hermit for awhile
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Well guys , just came across on our local news. We now have the Corona Virus here in TOPEKA KS. - We have 2 confirmed Corona Virus in out Local Hospital in Topeka St Mt Vail. - that’s just wonderful.
On top of that I have a friend that is a Nurse at a walk in Clinic here and Topeka , now this is separate but This guy walks in to this Clinic here in Topeka yesterday and promptly says - - - he was infected with the virus he had contacted with a Corona victim in Florida. - - - WTF – idiots , they have been saying again & again DO NOT go into your doctor CALL YOUR DOCTOR. - -So he walks into out clinic so they had to call the CDC and they promptly said - - shut it down. SO now this Clinic has to be shut down for the next 14 days and on top of that every one that was in the clinic at this time has now has to be quarnateed -Holy crap people think. - -So things NOT GOING WELL here stay safe my friends
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Gov. Cooper declared a state of emergency today, and UNC is likely going all-online next week after spring break. Gonna get weird.
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well got to do retraction guys/ Did some checking I was going from information that was called to me from other Topeka friends. - -No confirmed virus in Topeka. - -No confirmed virus. I went on line checked a little further. - -WIBW say the Shawnee Co health says that yes there are two that is self quarnteed for POSSIBLE - - - POSSIBLE virus these two contacted Shawnee Co saying they had traveled to areas where the CDC had issues alerts. At the time no Confirmed case in the Topeka area and these two are showing no sympthoms right now. - - WHEW that’s good , although still scary and to close, just wanted to holler back and apologize my friends wrong info I’m sorry. Again was going off what these other friends had said was coming out. It came from KSNT and they had to retract their statement. - -ROCK CHALK MY FRIENDS
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Well Ivy league cancelled Post Season tourney men and women’s because of corona Virus. - -Authorities now saying non essential travel should not happen/taken. - - The hosts said the IVY League travel is not essential.
they said the NCAA tourney is the next Domino to fall. The CDC authorites saying now that the Corona Virus is now 10 times as deadly as the flue
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They are talking on the local sports now and Jesse Newell and they re talking that NCAA and Schools talking like sure headed to games being played with empty arena’s - - No fans allowed. - - Only teams and media which will have to sit two rows behind teams.
Trending really hard to games being played in empty arena’s
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@jayballer73 I think it would be interesting if they would allow 1,000 fans spread out throughout the stadium - kinda like a Missouri game. But the ticket prices would be outrageous. As opposed to completely empty stadiums, but that would not happen as you still have too many choke points putting all those people in the same places.
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@jayballer73 the other 30% aren’t dead. The morality rate they are saying is now closer to 1% depending on the source. In your case buddy, I’d stay at home as much as you guys are able. Hopefully y’all have some family that can help bring you supplies when needed.
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I’m in the same boat as you… except I’m 61 and my dad is 87 and stuck in a bed.
The media is just starting to figure out that the real line of defense is between everyone and the elderly and those with immune issues.
Now there is a run on black elderberry extract. Better get it while you can!
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@kjayhawks said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
@jayballer73 the other 30% aren’t dead. The morality rate they are saying is now closer to 1% depending on the source. In your case buddy, I’d stay at home as much as you guys are able. Hopefully y’all have some family that can help bring you supplies when needed.
CDC just came out and said they are now finding that the Corona Virus is 10 times as deadly as the flu for sure staying put. With my pace maker and other issues, the wife With Severe COPD doctors saying her lungs about shot - low immune system umm ya we not going anywhere
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@dylans said in Boy guys I really just don't know best to keep tabs:
@jayballer73 I think it would be interesting if they would allow 1,000 fans spread out throughout the stadium - kinda like a Missouri game. But the ticket prices would be outrageous. As opposed to completely empty stadiums, but that would not happen as you still have too many choke points putting all those people in the same places.
lol ,that’s about 500 to many for Missouri fans lmao
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@jayballer73 Please excuse the edit. Moved to Politics and World Affairs category and made it clear that it’s the coronavirus thread since it’s become that.
