Selden: Pop, Hop and Trey

  • Wayne appeared to lose his pop and his hop during the season. The last month of the season there were few lobs run for him and he took on air rarely on drives. He barely cleared iron on most drives.

    No KU player in the Self years has gotten his pop back, once the player started wearing knee wraps full time.

    Sherron was the classic example of a perimeter player losing more of his pop and hops each season that he returned.

    Travis Releford started out with legendary hops and by the last season had had to learn to play “an old man’s game,” according to Self.

    Elijah Johnson same deal. His sticks went from explosive to stiff. He had to adapt to reduced pop.

    All three went from exploding at the rim to just enough at the rim. No more hands at the top of the shooters box, just hands at the rim.

    Selden’s trey increasingly left him as he lost his pop. Travis proved you can get better shooting the trey by shooting with almost a set shot at times.

    If Selden’s pop comes back, and he sharpens his trey, he has a bright NBA future. But if the hop does not restore, then Travis and EJ are his future. Both are probably overseas and doing ok.

  • @jaybate 1.0 JB, I could be wrong, but didn’t all three of those guys suffer injuries that limited their “pop”?

    Tyshawn definitely suffered a knee injury and was still a mad man at getting to the rack…what I wouldn’t give to have had TT on the team these last two years.

    It could also have to do with these younger guys not being used to such a taxing schedule.

  • @jaybate 1.0 See the comment on Hudy’s theory about Cortisol levels and injury to athletes. If she is right, then that can be controlled and Wayne can regain his pop. Personally, I think he will regain most of his form during the off season. Andrea Hudy is the best. She also has access to medical technology at the University of Kansas Hospital, where I mentioned just a bit ago, that is tops in the nation. Why couldn’t Sherron or Trav or EJ get their hops back? I don’t know. Severity of injury and healing abilities are different with everyone. I hope that Wayne can work hard in the off season and get most if not all of his back. I tweeted to Andrea Hudy to “kick those guys’ @$$E$ in the off season *Wink.”

  • Given that Selden was wearing all that leg gear since his jr year in HS,

    I think it’s relatively safe to say that any loss in pop over the season was due to the normal wear and tear of the game, or at least that any knee problems he has he brought with him. I’ll change my mind on that if we get news of a surgery, but until then, file this away as a known factor.

  • @konkeyDong

    Most HS teams are limited to 20 games per season. At KU he played 35 games that required a much, much higher level of physical effort compared to high school. It is normal that towards the end of the season players, particularly freshmen, are worn out.

  • @JayHawkFanToo a good example of that may be Embiids back problems.

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Excellent example. Most top high school players have been preparing physically for a long time; many start in grade school. They also play summers in the AAU circuit and have access to above average coaches and physical trainers. Embiid, on the other hand, had none of this and was years behind the other players in physical development. His HS coach commented that he often got winded during games and he already had some back issues. From the physical stand point, the jump from HS to college was much greater for Embiid than for other top players.

  • @JayHawkFanToo I can’t even imagine the toll on their bodies plus school responsibilities.

  • @jaybate 1.0

    Interesting thread.

    I had the feeling that Wayne just needed to survive his first year so he could go through a complete summer with Hudy. Wayne is a strong guy, but he carries too much weight for a guy his size. Even dropping 5 lbs makes a huge difference when you talk about stress put on joints. He seemed a bit slow sometimes, too, but he was competing against thinner guards with more bounce in their step.

    You definitely have a point, @jaybate !

    I wonder if part of it could be that after players get a year or two into D1, they stop feeling invincible and so they play a bit more conservative…

  • @drgnslayr I agree, about Wayne and his weight.

  • @konkeyDong

    Most HS teams are limited to 20 games per season. At KU he played 35 games that required a much, much higher level of physical effort compared to high school. It is normal that towards the end of the season players, particularly freshmen, are worn out.

    Isn’t that what I just said?

  • @konkeyDong

    Isn’t that what I just said?

    That’s what she said…:)

    Just kidding, I was agreeing with you…

  • @JayHawkFanToo and @Crimsonorblue22

    Actually Joel had the back issues in high school too. It’s not new. But I agree the games in college are a lot more intense, and the number of them put more wear and tear on their bodies.

  • I do think that Selden’s trajectory is on an upward angle, and that he’ll be our best player next season.

    Starting lineup of Mason, Selden, Greene, Ellis, Alexander.

    If Oubre is a plus defender, maybe he unseats Greene.

    Embiid gone, no Myles.

    Early prediction.

  • Thanks to all that responded to the thread. As usual, learned more than I taught. And that’s the great benefit of online kibitzing.

    Moonwalk: at least part of it probably is the rigors of the season. But Self did say Wayne had a sore knee in November or December and Wayne did wear the longline model of the knee wraps after that. Maybe some of both?

    Lulu: god I hope Dr. Hudy is onto something with cortisol. There just seem to be so many more problems that I recall 10-15 years ago and back. Probably I have forgotten, or maybe the players just didn’t wear any wraps or braces then. It used to be most teams had one, maybe two guys with knee problems. But now it seems half the teams encounters sore knees each season. For what its worth, it seemed hyperextended elbows and shoulder separations took a dip this season.

    Konk: The feed would not play for me, so I am unable to consider your evidence, but of course I trust you to make a valid point.

    JayHawkFanToo: A one third longer season has to be a load to adjust to. Playing through injuries probably is a greater challenge for many of these players who were once the stars of their teams. They probably were highly protected when injured in high school, were probably mostly overwhelmingly stronger, longer and faster than opponents. In D1 they probably are being protected, as much, and they are probably getting banged around a lot more by guys their size and bigger.

    CB22: Embiids back problems tracking to high school is interesting.

    JayHawkFanToo: This notion relative newness to rigors of a new sport makes a lot of sense to me.

    CB22: The booking too many forget. No doubt they are still graded on separate curves for many classes, and they are taking a significant share of easy classes, and the tutors are walking them through writing the papers, but the point is there is still a time commitment and a pressure to meet a certain standard that divide attention. And those wonky bus rides and late night plane connections, and the missed day or two of classes intermittently would be nerve wracking, especially to a freshman.

    slayr: Of the guys I mentioned, Sherron and EJ just seemed like the pop was diminished. But Travis always seemed to be able to go up a little higher when he needed it, which fits your explanation. It makes a lot of sense that most guys begin to learn to conserve by junior season. Copy and paste on Wayne’s weight.

    Wis: most phenomena have complex roots complex interactions. So, yes, HS back issue meets 35 game season equals nonlinearities in lost performance sometimes.

    HEM: Wayne is a 38-40% trey away from being a 15ppg college perimeter force even without full restoration on the pop and hop. With full pop and hop, then he would probably go to the top of the 2 guard draft board. What Wayne and Wigs proved this season was that without the trey gun, even great athletes get whittled down, hand cuffed, and finally frustrated on the wings in a conventional hi-lo offense stretched for impact play, rather than ball screened for rub and pop.

  • @jaybate 1.0 I learned >38% trey guns are imperative on a team with N.C. aspirations.
    PS. @Jaybate, when is the book coming out?

  • @Lulufulu85

    Selden has a beautiful jump shot I’ve always thought. It reminded me of BMacs. I absolutely believe he can become that reliable outside scorer/slasher that BMac was.

    As far as HS teams playing 20 games. I don’t how many places that’s true. Here in Louisiana some teams play ridiculous schedules with up to 50 games! Wisconsin only had 20 allowed though.

  • @HighEliteMajor I agree that Wayne will be our best player next season. He is the key (well, along with figuring out that PG thing) to how good we will be next year. Curious why you say no Myles. Is he leaning Texas?

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Since you have the best reputation (based on stars per post) on these boards how can you say with great confidence that Embiid is gone?

  • @Lulufulu85

    I am working away dutifully at it again with the '14 season euthanized. Alas it has turned into a monster and I don’t have a forecast on when i will finish. But thanks for asking.

    How about a line of t-shirts that just have:

    “KU > 38%”

  • Well you asked HEM, but I’ll throw in my 2 cents since that what we do here… Embiid will want to stay, but if you are a top 3 pick, there is no reason to come back. Too much risk. The general rule of thumb is if you are a lottery pick…you go.

  • Just saw Keegs’ “Requiem for a Point Guard” story signaling the faithful that Naa’s days at PG are likely done.

    I’m ready to put Selden at PG. No more seasons depending on his trey gun. Let Wayne take everyone to iron.

  • @jaybate 1.0 Then who is your starting 2 guard?

  • @REHawk I’m no Bate, but I’d put Greene there unless Oubre pulls a McLemore.

  • Great thread. Put WaynesWorld at PG (like Smart and Kane), and have solid Masonry as the backup. Put Greene at the 2, with Connor as the backup. Oubre at the 3wing as a 6’7 replacement for WIggyBaby (6’8). Now we are working on a Kentucky-imitation with an NBA sized starting 5. Man, I hope Embiid returns.

  • @ralster I could envision Selden/Mason at the point…and even Greene/Frankamp at the 2, Oubre/White at the 3. Ellis/Alexander/Traylor at 4? Embiid or Turner/Alexander at 5. Where’s Tharpe? Mickelson/Lucas?

  • @REHawk Or does White leave, and Ellis accompany Oubre at 3? Embiid (or Turner)/Mickelson/Lucas at the 5. Still, where’s Tharpe?

  • I don’t see Wayne playing the point. Probably not quick enough. He has the handle for a good 2, but not for a 1 IMO. The Ellis at 3 debate continues…but I don’t see it. I don’t think he can guard a 3 on the perimeter. I don’t think either one of those happen.

  • @jaybate 1.0 Hahaha, That’s kind of funny in a sadistic way. We needed those guys to shoot the trey better this year.

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