Does the NBA Think Self Has the Most Good Talent Year in and Year Out?



  • NOT!

    Based on the NBA’s low and no drafting of KU players, either the NBA prefers NIKE’s middling players to adidas’ middling players (perish the thought, petroshoecos have no influence on recruiting) , or else Self appears to be coaching circles around the rest of the coaches at elite programs with lesser players and fewer good ones.

    It is pathetic that the game’s greatest coach, bar none, is relegated to patching .820 records together mostly out of guys the NBA drafts low, or doesn’t draft, and and has to round out his rotations with guys the other elite programs don’t even sniff at.

    Hell, even .600 Jay (prior to suddenly being able to sign 2 Top 75 players and 4 75-100 players that could shoot > 39% from three point land ) can now sign guys Self can’t sign.

    Sickening state of recruiting asymmetry.

    He can’t even restock three point shooters after a FINAL FOUR when all his trifectates graduate.

    And are TPTB apparently PERHAPS trying to use the FEDs to make it even more asymmetric?

    If Self keeps coaching another 10 years, will “the system” have him pared down to trying to win with DII transfers, while coaching with a blind fold?

    No, wait, Self is a big time cheater! He will be PAYING DII players to come to KU!!!

    And he will be peaking under the blindfold!!

    Massive cheater!

    And so twisted he cheats to sign lesser players and players the NCAA gums up the eligibility of.

    We know Self is a cheater, because. MU fans say so!!

    Howling!!

    Howling!



  • There are some in NBA circles that believe Self does a poor job of developing players for the NBA game. Whether or not that is a fair criticism, I think it affects how players from KU are viewed in the draft.

    Many NBA people think Self is so strict in his system that guys may not be as effective outside the KU specific structure. That is a challenge that this year’s team especially can help overcome with Grimes, the Lawsons, etc.



  • @justanotherfan

    Just curious? How many?

    And are they among the intelligent ones?

    Do the ones that keep all the lesser KU players hanging on in the NBA feel this way? Quite a few of them hanging on.

    It apparently doesn’t apply to his better players.

    That’s how I respond honestly.

    Pat Riley liked how Chalmers was prepared. Won a couple rings.

    The folks in Minnesota and Phillie seem satisfied. Sacramento has found places for Frank Mason, TRob, and so on at times.

    We probably have as many guys hanging around the NBA that weren’t super highly ranked college recruits, as those that were.

    The reality seems to be that the dissatisfied NBA guys hate getting exposed for not being able to get some guys to play at as high of levels, as Self. Makes them look bad.

    Others seem to get what they need. Also, some probably don’t want to be replaced by Selfifhe jumps—probably the lesserones?



  • I’ve heard Self’s coaching is a plus for NBA execs. They know his players can handle discipline and have been taught more defense over most D1 coaches.



  • So WHY don’t most Kansas players draft higher?

    Might it be that Self is too good of a coach?

    Huh?

    Think about that. Maybe Self is getting his players to reach closer to their potential, so there isn’t enough perceived upside left. NBA largely recruits based on potential.

    That’s my guess for today. I’ll make another guess later…



  • The reality is that Kansas has a roster chalk full of top 5 talent each season. Just look at the player rankings. The challenge … start in our national championship year in 2008 and find five CBB rosters in any particular year that have more talent. I’ll save you the time. You won’t find five. I already did the leg work. Look at Self’s comments. He’s an amazing coach. But he is the first guy to recognize our talent gap in the Big 12. Part of being a great coach is getting that talent. Just being blue blood isn’t the guaranteed path … ask Indiana or UCLA. Bill Self is not a better (or worse) coach than Roy Williams, or K, or Calipari, or Izzo. So he’s not doing anything outside the box or on a different level. The only schools you see doing better than KU in the draft, really, are Duke and UK. That’s it. UNC and MSU do very good, but I’m not seeing that they have draft dominance.



  • Is anyone suggesting Self gets only untalented players? I don’t recall so.

    It does not appear to me that Self builds teams without good players and some seasons without 1-2 nearly as good as anyone’s.

    Two questions have nagged based on appearances: a.) why can certain coaches sign so many more OADs without appearing to be sharply better coaches; and b.) why so many more OADs at the 1 and 5 so often?

    Next, regarding specifi comparisons with Roy, Self appears at least to be significantly better than Roy based on comparison of their performances at KU for several performance factors. Bill won a ring at KU and Roy didn’t, Bill has won at a slightly higher percentage at KU than Roy, and Bill has won sharply more consecutive conference titles at KU than Roy did. And Bill did most all of the above without what has appeared a long Nike relationship Roy has appeared to have enjoyed.

    And frankly, regarding K and Cal, I don’t recall Self has ever had 6 (UK in 2012), 9 (Duke), or 10 (UK) OADs even once, so Bill getting to the 2012 Finals without a McD, or to the 2018 FF without an eligible OAD suggest he appears better than guys that need 6-10 OADs to “getter done,” right?

    I don’t recall Bill ever has signed and gotten eligible more than three OADs per recruiting season all these years! Am I forgetting?

    He has never EVEN had a single OAD 5!!!

    Heck, Bill has never signed a single OAD 1 that was not a decommit from a troubled program till this very season, right?

    And yet Bill is winning at a near or higher percentage than K and Cal over his KU tenure, right?!!!

    And he is doing all this with a shoe brand that at most reputedly has summer game teams that reputedly only have something like 20% of the top 100, right?

    He just seems soooooo much better than Roy, Konsonants, and Cal based on what his apparent lesser numbers of OAD/5-stars at the 1 and 5 over the years inflict on him.



  • @jaybate-1-0 I understand your argument on OAD 1/5s. In fact, I’ve always felt it was an excellent point.

    But the over-reaching praise you heap on Self based on the premise of some talent dearth is significantly misplaced, in my opinion. You act as if we’re struggling to fill our roster with worthy, talented players.

    In at least half of Self’s seasons here, I’d take our roster over any other roster in the country. And again, we’re always top 5. You referred to him patching together a roster. And you refer to recruiting asymmetry. The only schools that have an edge on Kansas, when comes to the OADs, are Duke and UK. And that’s only on the presumed OADs, which we know requires a special hand from a coaching perspective.

    When Duke and UK are winning national titles each season, then there is an argument. They aren’t. It’s because OADs don’t win championships. And again, they are the only ones that have a recruiting edge.

    When you bring up Nova, it further compromises your argument. When one reviews their rosters over the last three years, we see why.

    Is there a point guard that has played for UK, Duke, or UNC during this stretch that you’d rather have than Mason his junior/senior season or Graham his senior season? John Wall? I’m sure there might be a few.

    I flat don’t like the dismissal of Roy Williams, who has won 3 national titles, and who has won multiple league titles in a tougher ACC. Roy went to four final fours at Kansas while cutting his teeth as a head coach. Self has already been a head coach at a major school. You’re putting Self on some lofty perch where no other coaches fly. I’m saying that a certain group of coaches are in the same ballpark of greatness.



  • @HighEliteMajor

    Nice and succinct summary. Although KU has a lot of tradition, it is still in a small market state in the Mid West which places it away from the big market and prime time programming and yet it manages to recruit very well.

    Some people tend to forget that Coach Self’s job is primarily to maintain a good and clean program and win “college” games; sending players to the NBA is a secondary goal that helps recruiting but not his main role. Naturally, some of the players he recruits are destined to be great college players but not necessarily NBA material’ KU (and every othre school) players are drafted by the NBA based on their potential to be NBA players and not because of the school they attended or the shoe they wore. KU has the third-most players in the NBA with only Kentucky and Duke havinmg more and just placed 4 more players in the League. KU is doing just fine.

    The talk of Wright’s record suddenly improving because a perceived shoeco impact is just silly, his record improved not because suddenly he became a good coach (which he always was) but because the Big East 2010-2013 realignment weakened the conference and competition quite a bit.

    Here is the final ranking for the Big East at he the end of the 2010-1011 season:

    0_1529932115395_upload-611042a2-55b7-4b60-a401-bf0d7535916d

    It shows the top 4 and 7 of the top 9 teams and 2 additional teams in the conference left during the realignment and in the last 8 years those teams collected 3 national titles…that is a lot of very good teams… and by default Villanova became the best basketball program. The Big East used to be the top conference with 16 teams and now is till decent conference with only 10 teans but no longer the top. The equivalent would be having OU, OSU, Texas, TCU, WVU and Baylor leave the Big 12 and the conference adding a few weaker teams and KSU becoming the top dog in the conference…in football of course.

    Sometimes teams go through what I call the “perfect storm” when a combination of recruiting and development of lower ranked players creates a unique winning formula; Wichita State just went through a great 4-5 year run that allowed it to move to a better conference and appears to be ending now. Likewise, Villanova had a great run in the last few years but now it is starting to abate.

    Some of my comments above are related to the thread topic in general and not necessarily to your comments.



  • @HighEliteMajor His point about Nova is there is a rankings cover-up.

    Roy winning a NC with the 154th 3 point shooting team doesn’t fit the narrative that Self is a God. Please keep up. Please ignore that they beat their final 3 opponents that tournament, all very good teams, while going 3-15, 8-21 and 4-27 from 3. Stats and facts are the enemy. Expand your brain.

    @JayHawkFanToo Spot on. Nova went from a meat grinder to a cake-ish conference. If you put Bill in the ACC, BIG or old Big East, his record would be worse.



  • @jaybate-1.0

    There’s a pretty distinct split. Some feel that his gameplans are overly structured, and that makes it difficult for guys to be successful outside of that scheme. This is similar to the “system QB” or “system WR” that racks up good numbers within that specific system, but can’t match that success in a different environment. That is a concern raised by some NBA people because Self is very strict about his system.

    There are others that are not as concerned about that, to be sure. But it is interesting that lots of KU players have slid in the draft, and I can’t think of the last time a KU guy went higher than expected.



  • justanotherfan said:

    @jaybate-1.0

    There’s a pretty distinct split. Some feel that his gameplans are overly structured, and that makes it difficult for guys to be successful outside of that scheme. This is similar to the “system QB” or “system WR” that racks up good numbers within that specific system, but can’t match that success in a different environment. That is a concern raised by some NBA people because Self is very strict about his system.

    There are others that are not as concerned about that, to be sure. But it is interesting that lots of KU players have slid in the draft, and I can’t think of the last time a KU guy went higher than expected.

    I think the way KU has played the last two years should help in this regard. Self was too rigid before, but he is changing.



  • BShark said:

    I think the way KU has played the last two years should help in this regard. Self was too rigid before, but he is changing.

    I agree with that. The success (hopefully) of guys like Josh Jackson, Quentin Grimes, Mason, Graham, Svi, etc. will help turn the tide.



  • The Diallo thing definitely didn’t do Self any favors and I hope there isn’t a situation like that again.



  • Been busy moving for a week and will.be still rest of this week. Obviously will take the time to address the flurry of specious posting above as dust settles and old muscles recover while drinking Old Fasioned in new pool.



  • jaybate 1.0 said:

    specious posting

    Great way to describe yourself actually, in addition to being verbose.


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