ok so there is people saying Beaty needs to go, but not getting into that. I do have a question though, with the talk of him possibly or needing to be fired, some have already started throwing out names.
So now UNDERSTAND I’m just asking I don’t know, just know hw comes from a decent program - -if Beaty were to be fired, what would you think if they were to interview Butch Jones? - -Don’t scream bloody murder cause I’m not trying for the guy one way or another, just know he Coached Tennessee had some decent teams - -just pure curiousity that’s all. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
The next head coach at the university of Kansas should be…drum roll Brian Ward current defensive coordinator for Syracuse. Mark my words he will be a head coach with in the next five years and a successful one. I was lucky enough to see him turn around a complete doormat in McPherson College in just 3 years (Ik it’s NAIA but it’s more head coaching experience than Beaty had). He has recruiting ties all across the the state of Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Brian has been a little bit of every where including the NDSU sideline in their upset of KU. He let up some serious points last week but also drew up the game plan that beat Clemson. One of my best friends played QB for him and he’s a hard nose guy that instills toughness. I remember my buddy up at 4 am late in the season practicing in 10 degree weather because they were gonna be the toughest team on the field with no excuses, reminded me of Mangino practicing out in the snow before the orange bowl tho the game was to be played in sunny Florida. It’s not a big name hire but I’d start there and then pay what ever takes to get back strength and conditioning coach Chris Dawson from KSU, our guys don’t look any bigger or faster from year 2 to 3 and that is unacceptable.
If KU fires Beaty now, they basically guarantee the next coach will fail as well.
KU hasn’t had enough job stability for the head coach to even have a chance to recruit. When Beaty started, he had less than 60 scholarship players on the roster. The FCS division can award 63 full scholarships. D2 can award 36. KU was somewhere between a D2 and FCS program when Beaty took over, and that showed on the field. KU is now fielding over 70 scholarship players. Still not quite a D1 level, but closer than what we saw two years ago.
Fire Beaty now, KU will probably be back below 60 again next year, starting all over.
Football is a numbers game. If you go to a HS game and count the number of players that dress for varsity, and then count the number of players that actually play, more times than not, the team that has the higher numbers wins because unless you have 8 of the best 10 or 12 guys on the field, numbers matter too much in football. It’s just too important to have subs and get quality practice reps against strong backups. If you only have 60 guys at the D1 level, that means you don’t even have a full three deep, which probably means your two deep is very thin. Some of your starters are probably only good backups, and some of your backups should be third stringers, which means your third stringers are redshirt guys and your redshirt guys should be walk ons, etc.
KU can’t start over next year. That will lead to this same conversation in the Fall of 2020 when we wonder why we can’t get consistent performance in year 3.
@justanotherfan So, do you expect improvement then in 2018? Year four? You thus must believe that Beaty will provide us say four wins next season? Four wins in year four? I just don’t see the foundation being there in year three.
I acknowledge that you make very good points. I was there about late September.
But the real question is “do we have the right coach?” Otherwise, we’ll be in the same spot this time next year, and year behind another attempted rebuild. What evidence can you show me that we have the right coach? I’ve changed on that. I see flailing.
The reality is, in my opinion, as pathetic as we are, we should scrap the “air raid” BS that everyone does, and shift non-conventional (which is away from what everyone else does). For example, Georgia Tech and Navy running variations of the option, flexbone, etc. We are in a position where we need scheme to favor us, and put pressure on the other teams’ preparation. It is also much easier to adapt lesser players to this sort of offensive system. We’re desperate.
I’ve got an interview with Zenger this week about the job. I’ll make 10 times what i’m making now, save the University several million and nobody will still give a crap if we win or not.
Here’s what I will say about Beaty and this has been my position for awhile now. Regardless of W-L record, he needs 5 years for no other reason than to allow his successor a chance at success.
We have less than 10 seniors this year, keep Beaty and allow him this recruiting class which should bring the scholarship numbers back into line. If there’s not significant W-L progress next year, then you fire Zenger in October, hire a new AD immediately and let him clean house on the staff and bring in his choice.
I also disagree with @HighEliteMajor about changing systems. I’m fine with abandoning the Air Raid itself, but some variation of the Spread offense is what KU needs to be successful.
The principle behind the spread offense is to create mismatches and 1 on 1 coverages in the secondary. When you spread the field with 4 receivers, that can open up the running game as well, especially if the QB is mobile which brings the zone read into play as well.
If you go from something like the spread to an option like the academies or GT runs, that will require completely rebuilding the roster again for players who function in that system which would take a full5 recruiting cycle to do so which means another 4-5 years of transitioning and frustration. By bringing in another spread coach, there would be tweaks to the system, but the overall concepts are the same and the learning curve is much less because of that.
Another question to ask is about the next coach is what is the goal. Is it someone like Matt Campbell who would likely leave in a heartbeat for a new as soon as it’s offered, or on an unknown who is more likely to stay if he has success, but is a much higher risk of failure as well?
My personal plan would be give Beaty one more year to show something because that 1 year will keep KU from falling way behind on scholarships again which sets the next coach up for a better chance of success early on. At least that’s my thought on the matter.
Beaty looks like a text book example of the Peter’s Principle. He moved up and was a very good position coach but on his last promotion to Head Coach he reached his level of incompetence.
Ok let me aask this again. - -IF Beaty were to be let go , what about Butch from Tennessee? - -again I’m would not be promoting him necessarily but just curious what people would think about him and himn coming here if that happened. They have had pretty decent teams in the past right? - Not this year or maybe last not sure - -just curious that’s all. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@jayballer54 I vote negative on Jones he has one winning conference season at Tennessee, if you can’t win with the SEC and Tennessee brand with those resources how could you win at Kansas? It would be Weis all over again IMO.
@kjayhawks Ok thanks for your response - -I seriously didn’t know about him - just curious. - -But they’ve had pretty decent teams in the past though haven’t they? - -who was the coach or have they always been at the bottom? - -Seems like they used to be pretty decent - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
No way in hell you take Butch Jones. Not even KU. Dude has to be a dead fish recruiting now.
@jayballer54 they had 2 solid years in 15 and 16 with 9 wins a piece but 15 is the lone + .500 conference season to with a 14-24 SEC record.
@kjayhawks Gotcha - -thanks -now I know. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@Texas-Hawk-10 We don’t have one QB capable of running the air raid crap, nor do we have the skill players to execute at other spots. It is much easier to stock the players for a more ground based attack. You don’t need as many talented skill guys on offense.
@HighEliteMajor We actually do have a decent group of receivers for a spread offense. We do lack a QB which if we had one, we could see that our receivers are good.
The issue with switching to an option offense is that it would take time to develop an offensive line to run that system. We see the issues our OLine has with run blocking now, so why would the current group be able to run block when they run 80% of the time?
Beaty has to get the numbers back in line. If you don’t take a step forward in year four, you can him if he doesn’t make it happen year five. But the numbers have to come back first.
For an offense scheme I would like to see KU get back to the basics or steal a page out of the old NE teams. Get you the biggest and strongest corn fed boys you can find to play the lines of offense and defense. Then find an old school full back, and a new age scat back. Top it off with a QB that has a decent arm. Then just pound the football. Lightening and Thunder.
Reality is KU football will never recruit like the big boys. So why run a type of offensive that requires you to have such talent to run. In my opinion your just playing right into the hands of the schools that out recruit you and run a lot of the same stuff.
With KU being so outrecruited by just raw talent. It’s best succes would come with ball control. Chewing up clock. Grabbing first downs. The Big 10 and the SEC have made a living at doing this. Looking at the landscape of college football. This approach has served them well.
@DoubleDD You have to have top flight talent to run the Spread offense, that’s why it started at non traditional powers and worked its way up to the big boys.
OLine’s take time to build regardless of system and when you start 4 sophomores and a freshman, it’s not going to end well regardless of system. The biggest thing KU is missing that’s preventing the offense from taking that step forward is a QB. Get a QB that can read a defense and find the 1 on 1 match up against man defense or the receiver in the hole of a zone defense, and KU’s offense would be leaps and bounds better. I really do believe that KU is one player away from being a bowl team right now. Because that one player KU is missing is the most important player in sports, we see what KU looks like today.
@Texas-Hawk-10 @DoubleDD I am late getting back to this. It is a good point made regarding the offensive line. Power blocking is different than finesse blocking. What I mean is that if you have a lighter offensive line – meaning you don’t have the run blocking “road graters” as they are referred to – you get your offensive line mobile to block. You pull, you trap, you cross, you get the smaller guys doing something other than power blocking. Pass blocking is much different than run blocking (which is a different topic that power vs. finesse, but is linked because power running is usually best with bigger o-lines). Different skill set. Different footwork. But if … and I say “if” … you have size issues, you can scheme your runs in a way to capitalize on the attributes of your line.
We may actually be one player away. The stud quarterback. But we haven’t had one since Reesing, and if we get one, then we’re just an injury away from having none. Beatty hasn’t landed one. I have no hope there.
You did not suggest a reason why going with an offense that 95% of teams don’t run wouldn’t be advantageous. It’s because it is advantageous. Of course, against top teams it won’t matter. But controlling the clock, keeping other offenses off the field, and making them prep for something they rarely see is a tried and true football formula.
@DoubleDD Well said, bravo. - - couldn’t have been put better. - -Let’s go back to the John Riggins type of runner, The Nolan Cromwell type of QB - back in the good ol days like you say pound them. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
There are some spread offenses that focus more on the run than the pass. It’s basically a spread option attack, with things like end arounds, jet sweeps, etc. to utilize the receivers in the run game, as well as screens and other short passes in the passing game (basically just like runs). You have to keep more DBs on the field because there are always 3 or 4 receivers on the field and you don’t want LBs isolated in space against those shifty guys, but it takes people out of the box, allowing you to pound the ball inside if you want to.
I think that sort of attack could work with what KU has (and the types of players they can recruit).
@HighEliteMajor That was the philosophy Charlie Weis attempted to implement. A pro style, control the clock, run first system. Aside from from the personnel issue, it’s also much more difficult to come from behind in a run based offense because of the clock. Take the second half against Texas for example, KU trailed by 15 for most of the second half. That’s a 2 or 3 possession game depending on converting the 2 point conversion. In a pro style or option offense, that’s a big task to do so and when Weis was coaching, it rarely felt like KU had a chance to overcome those issues. Against Texas last Saturday, none of their fans were comfortable with a 15 point lead against Kansas because of the capability of the Spread to come from behind.
KU is going to be playing from behind regularly simply because of the talent deficit regardless of the coach. The spread offense is much more capable of those comebacks than a run based offense is.
KU’s epic comeback against Colorado under Gill doesn’t happen with a run based offense because of the clock.
I’ve been involved in football as a player and coach for about 20 years, the Spread offense is the best offense for teams with a talent deficit because it’s all about creating space for 1 guy to make a play which is all it takes.
Do I think the Air Raid is the best version of the Spread for KU, not necessarily, but it’s not hard to change to another version of the Spread because the concepts are still the same, it’s just the emphasis in how to gain those yards that’s different.
I’ll put this way, I believe we are much closer to being a competitive team running the spread, any version of it, than we would have been if we had tried to keep buiilding on Weis’s pro style, run first philosophy.
The spread offense is heavily dependent on a good QB. KU is not getting a 5 or 4-star QB any time soon; the only hope is to find an under-the-radar unknown QB that develops into a great one like Reesing…a tall and unlikely order
Regrettably, I have to weigh in occasionally on KU football now again, because someone here recently produced a brain researcher that let’s his kid play football, because some research he had done called into question the common sense and the legacy research conclusions that football was inevitably brain damaging those that play it. So, here goes.
In total rebuilding scenarios, it is almost always a two step process.
Step 1: spend several years getting up to 80-90 D1 grade players on scholarship and establishing the recruiting pipeline capable of sustaining that flow rate and building up the quality of that flow rate incrementally. During this phase, wins and losses hardly matter and are often more a matter of luck of meeting opponents when they are injured, and when your guys are not, or when you have a few unexpected diamonds in the rough show up, as occurred for Mangino, after which his fortunes started to sag back closer to a more normal development process.
Step 2: Take your 80-90 player roster and begin focusing recruiting on a few blue chippers and on acquiring cutting edge strategy on offense, or defense, that combine to take you to finishing in the top three of your conference consistently.
I don’t see any sustainable shortcuts. And when you have a guy that has some sudden early success, like Mangino, you have to not be seduced into thinking it is sustainable after the lucky early diamonds in the rough graduate. Wins WILL decline after an early peak and you WILL return to the normal development cycle.
Regarding Beatty, the decision tree is pretty clear.
If Beatty continues to successfully sign more D1 grade players, so that by next season (his fourth, if I recall correctly) KU can expect to have 80-90 legitimate D1 players on hand, regardless of stage of development, then Beatty should be retained. Period. Even if he hasn’t won a single game.
But if Beatty is not on track to have 80-90 legitimate D1 players on the roster by next season, then Beatty has to go NOW, because he isn’t capable of accomplishing the first phase of our rebuild; i.e., getting our roster numbers up to Step 1 baseline target.
This should be a fairly easy decision to make.
Beatty should NOT be judged by his W&L statement either way.
Beatty should be judged by his recruiting; i.e., by whether he is climbing up the steep slope of recruiting to establish 80-90 D1 grade players that could be built upon, by him, or by some better coach, in Phase II of the rebuild.
Becoming good at football or basketball, without cheating to do it, is a long term process. Period.
Sorry, I cannot contribute any names to the hopper for Beatty’s possible replacement, but I’m just not well-informed on college football coaching candidates these days. I’ll try to knock some rust off in coming months.
I can suggest one to avoid: Charlie Weis.
@Texas-Hawk-10 While I agree with much of what you’ve said, I think you’re discussing something different.
I’m not taking “pro style”, run first. I’m talking GT or Navy, triple option, flexbone, etc. Things you don’t see regularly. Proven offensive systems that have been successful, and that create preparation issues for opponents. Systems that employ significant trapping, pulling, and cross blocking. Specific and detailed blocking techniques vs. the “pro style” zone blocking that is so prevalent.
I believe we can recruit that athlete much more likely than the stud QB. The proof is in the pudding. Three coaches, no stud QB as @JayHawkFanToo mentioned. Your theory relies on that.
Further, my suggested offense grinds the clock. Yours puts an inferior team (KU) at a bigger disadvantage because the clock stops far more often due to incomplete passes.
Being run first also makes your passing potentially better on big plays, and sets up play action much better. So you can run, run, run … run some more … then hit for a big play action pass. Be vertical in your passing more, when you pass.
The reality is converting to this style of offense – finding three to four good hard runners – is much easier than stocking for your system. Because everyone runs some form of the spread or air raid it seems, that talent pool is being at attacked from all directions. Sadly, we are at the bottom of that competition.
Look west down I-70. KSU doesn’t run the option or flexbone, but they will run designed QB runs quite a bit (old single wing stuff). They aren’t a pass first attack. They have done that with lower level athletes, and won. Proof in the pudding there.
We can flail away doing what we’ve been doing. Or, we can free our minds.
@HighEliteMajor I will tell you that a triple option also relies on an extremely high IQ player because you have to make multiple reads every play. This is why academies can run it with a moderate amount of success because you have to be a high IQ player to go to an academy school. GT can be up or down based solely on their QB situation.
In a talent deficit spot like KU would be in, fewer possessions is not a good thing because it means fewer opportunities to score which puts an even greater burden on the defense to get stops because you might only get 7-8 chances against 12-13 chances in more of a pass first system and KU needs as many opportunities to score as possible.
Even if KU changed over, they would still face a talent deficit and would likely be trailing more times than not. It’s not a system designed to play from behind which KU will still likely be doing on a regular basis.
Baylor built their program recruiting the same pool of players Kansas was. RG3 was never assumed to have a football future, he was a track guy playing football on the side and originally committed to UH before Briles took the Baylor job.
I’ll end my discussion with this. QB is the single most important position in any sport and it doesn’t matter what system is being used. Without a competent QB, every system will fail.
@Texas-Hawk-10 No, the triple option does not “rely” on an “extremely high IQ player” at QB. At its basics, the QB has dive read, then a pitch read. We’ve seen hundreds of athletic, non-rocket scientists run it over the years with great success. It actually is a type of offense that permits the more athletic, less intellectual QB to be successful. It’s “system” based offense.
No doubt, it’s always better to have smart than dumb at all times. That’s not the issue.
Your significant flaw is when you say we will “still face a talent deficit.” You have acknowledged the current talent deficit. That would lead one to conclude that the longer the game, the worse that is exposed. Simple. We need to shorten games. Running the ball more does that.
Next, you obviously ignore the more significant reads that a spread QB has to make on each play. That requires the high IQ. Further, running the ball is a reactionary, more athletic movement than passing. Easier to find players that can do that.
Teams that are less athletic also have success with option based attacks, right? Because it’s system based. Well, if we’re getting lesser talent that seems to set up well. Being more of a system team is a way to beat/challenge talent.
You state that QB is the most important position. Something we all know. It is much easier to find a QB that can run the ball, and read at the line of scrimmage, than a QB that has a strong and accurate arm, who can read the massive number of coverages that get employed.
It is undeniable that the more you run, the more the defense is keyed on the run. It is exactly why play action works, and continues to work. We don’t make big plays now with our supposed “air raid” because teams are geared to stop the pass.
It is also odd that your position is based on KU playing from behind. I don’t concede that at all. With a contrarian type offense, so to speak, you can be the team that dictates the game. Of course, I’m not assuming we beat the top tier in any case, but I firmly believe we can grind to bowl eligibility. And you never know who you can shock along the way.
Really, it is the rigidity you demonstrate and refusal to consider other possibilities is the exact reason coaches fail. You say, “without a competent QB, every system will fail.” Exactly. It’s just much easier to find run first QBs that can run an option/flexbone type of attack. I cannot even fathom that you would dispute that.
You both make good points but in reality we are back to the “belling the cat” conundrum or more succinctly…how do we get a capable QB?
We have not had a one since Reesing and let’s face it, why would a top QB pick KU? Playing time? A top QB will get it at a much better program. Short of finding a true gem in the rough the chances are very slim.
It looks like about 8,000 people are there, will be interesting to see the official attendance number. Remember attendance hasn’t officially slipped below 20,000 in over 20 years.
@kjayhawks hey we held them!
Can’t we call it a tie now @Crimsonorblue22 lol
Chase should have caught that!
Wow if Joe could tackled we would have another stop,
Why wouldn’t joe shake hands?
@Crimsonorblue22 idk but that missed tackle made that look stupid and it was classless smh. Let fire up OU even more!! No, discipline what so ever.
@kjayhawks have you seen 14 before?
@Crimsonorblue22 #14?we just pissed away first and goal from the 2 with a bad snap
Harrell 2 drops
Harrell drops we should of had - - Fields hits him right in the hands and deflects for interception, Dam man. - - Heard to mercy we got a lot of injuries - -Booker out, dam they names a couple of others, defense Lee out again a lot of defense out Injuries, Injuries, and when your short handed doesn’t help, no excuses though.
Having said that defense not playing bad give a 12 yard drive - Defense - the player not the team kind of screwed us the last OU drive - Mayfield is a punk - talking smack - Talking his crap to Beaty.
Watch this 2nd half you know Mayfield gonna come out smoking hope it doesn’t get totally ugly. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@jayballer54 yep we had every chance to be up 10-7 or 17-7, still can’t make simple plays.
Throw the damn flag!