OAD or the sleeping Giant.
After reading article after article I’m beginning to wonder? We all have heard and read about how great Wiggins, JoeJoe, and Seldon are. These three have disappointed and wowed us with what they can do on the basketball court. I think we can all agree if these three are on their game KU is almost impossible to beat. However I wonder.
It seems to me there is a sleeping Giant in our mist. A player that can rebound, a player that can dunk, a player that has a mid range shot, a player that can shoot the three, and finally a player that can create his own shot.
Wiggins wows us at what he can do and hasn’t done yet. Joe is just a freak of nature, and Seldon is most likely the toughest player KU has. However the there is one player nobody talks about. Kstate calls him the silent assassin.
The young man, the myth, the player nobody talks about. Yet is the player KU tournament success relies on.
@DoubleDD now if he could play defense, as Self mentioned.
@Crimsonorblue22 I would agree. However I’ve to admit he has been stepping into the passing lanes here lately. After all I did call him the sleeping giant.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by
I don’t know about you, but many of us have posted in the past that Ellis is the most important player in the team. He is consistently solid and rarely he has a bad game.
bskeet last edited by bskeet
I like to think that Perry Ellis is the most valuable player, but Naadir Tharpe is most important.
Maybe it’s just semantics, but I see those as slightly different. I agree Ellis is consistent and that’s the key to his value.
Meanwhile, we can continue our superlatives thusly:
- Andrew Wiggins: most athletic
- Joel Embiid: most naturally gifted
- Wayne Selden: most diverse
- Frank Mason: quickest
- Jamari Traylor: most inspirational
JayHawkFanToo last edited by
Let me put it this way…perhaps Wiggins and Embiid are more gifted players with higher ceiling but Ellis is the “Most Valuable Player.”
JayhawkRock78 last edited by
I was in AFH yesterday, a rare treat for me. Of course we started out very flat but started to take control late in the first half. We went from no defense to solid defense. I was lucky to be on hand to see one of our players have a breakout game. Perry has done well in a lot of games and disappeared in a few, but it was really exciting to be there when he scored a career high.
Selden impressed me as well, and Wiggins did too. Lots of nice lobs for slam dunks including Black and Jamari. Can’t wait to watch the game on tape.
Off subject, but I am hoping they showed this on TV. Barbara Eden was at the game-they showed her on the video board several times, the first time the crowd cheered loudly and she responded with her magic move, folded he arms, and dipped he chin dip-AFH laughed and applauded loudly. That woman is 80, and looked like a sexy 50 year old. I have to say as a boy she was my # 1 TV love in front of MTM and Bewitched.
Rush, Withey, and Kevin Young were behind the KU bench as well and they showed them late in the game.
@JayhawkRock78 On TV, they did show “Jeanie” on the screen and mentioned that her husband is a Jayhawk Alum (cool!). Seeing her brought back similar memories for me. I missed Rush, but did see Withey and Young behind the bench.
JayhawkRock78 last edited by
Now that dude is one lucky Jayhawk!
@DoubleDD Moreover, I have reasonable expectations that Ellis will not have to sit for irresponsible behavior.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@DoubleDD I don’t think I agree that Ellis is “the” player that our tournament success relies upon.
Ellis has an easy time winning favorable matchups, or as he did against TCU, exploiting a bad zone defense. All positive qualities. But against PFs that are long and athletic, he many times disappears. That’s not the horse I want to hook my March fate to. Ellis, to me, is a key part, but not near “the” most important part. We’ve seen Self sit him in favor of Traylor. We’ve seen Ellis struggle mightily on the defensive end.
What player impacts the game most?
What player brings a unique skill set?
What player makes this team a “different team” when he is on the court?
Without Embiid, we are not a top 10 team.
Joel Embiid is “the” player that our tournament success relies upon the most.
In my humble opinion, of course.
HEM’s point about “winning matchups” is the key to the whole thing. Embiid can win some matchups, but not all (yet). He wasnt able to beat Cameron Ridley of TX on either end of the floor-- you can bet opponents took notes on that game tape. Self sitting out Embiid is a crafty-as-hell move to MAKE the rest of the team find ways to win without Embiid. And, it stokes the competitive fire inside Joel, having to sit and watch. Besides, dont we actually have a 10-deep roster including 5 usable bigs? What Embiid brings, though, is that rim-protection, that enhances the team-D even beyond Embiid’s ppg/rpg personal stats, just like Withey did. On the plus side, though, it is rare air watching Embiid offensively abuse an opposing big when Joel’s game is “on”.
You can bet that TubbyTechies double team Ellis (that-32-pt-guy) the next game. I dont know if Embiid will play. The team needs to be ready.
Looks like some forced time spent with the Enigma-zoneD-decoder machine has done this young team some good, although we have been facing some B-rated zones with TCU and Faylor…as opposed to the A-rated zone thrown by FL. It would be a fair fact to say most teams in Div.1 dont use a dedicated zone-D, and when they do, it is as a junk defense, so usually it will be a B-rated execution of such.
Finally, a great, great example of KU pressing/trapping, with elite-level athletes, and a lowly team like TCU BEATS that press for a g-d–n layup --> Perfect illustration why Self will never (routinely) use full court press, as it (routinely) “gives up an easy bucket at the rim if they beat the press”. Didnt RoysBoys prove that against Pitino? Forget that lesson? M2M defense, if done right, is very smothering…I thought Self’s teams have proven that over and over and over…(x 9). Right? (all just food for thought)
REHawk last edited by
Regarding the big tournament, at this stage we pretty much know what our starting lineup can do; and we know that Black, Traylor and Mason are depenable subs, super subs vs. certain matchups. X Factors appear to be modus operandi of officiating and possible explosiveness of Brannen Greene. Way back in October I was dreaming of a hot-handed Conner Frankamp leaping off the bench to save our bacon: 4 or 5 consecutive 3s, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam Bam! I really hope to see that happen.
To elaborate more on my general point, that “matchups” are key to success…it could be we play thru our bigs vs. a small ball team like IowaSt. (Notice Ellis’ breakout game vs. ISU last year in the BigXII Tourney). It could be a layer of smoke (Embiid or Black gets the initial (decoy) post pass, but is by design looking to pass to a cutting Ellis). Or it could be a wing matchup, where uberWiggins or beefSelden take their skills against smaller, less athletic, less gifted opponents. I dont see much being forced out of our PG matchup, as Tharpe is a shooter/scorer, but poor defender, so it ends up being a wash most games, at best. The main + out of the PG is if Mason is not fouling or turning it over…he has shown to be fairly decent at attacking and putting pressure. Sometimes that has been Self’s plan, something he has been more inclined to use, since Tyshawn showed (in 2012) what was possible with that approach. So did Sherron, but it was debated alot about PGattack vs PGdistribute…and still is.
I say, vary what we do situationally, and dont be afraid to change in-game what is and isnt working. Matchups can be exploited. If anything is to be learned from our “system” from the early March exits, it is we should remain tough, stingy on D, but also be versatile, as we get our 30+ win seasons by being versatile all-season-long, so no reason to get inflexible when we are behind in a game.
@HighEliteMajor It seems to be a common misconception that Ellis does not have the ability to win a matchup against long power forwards. The problem for Ellis is that he makes the mistake of trying to go inside against them, and in doing so gets his shot blocked.
What he needs to do is play outside in. He needs to be in pick and roll situations where he can shoot mid range jumpers and be out on the perimeter. As we all saw during the TCU game, Ellis can knock down perimeter shots with decent consistency, so that should be his primary attack against LSAs. He needs to leave the muscle ball to Black, Traylor, and Lucas while he plays his perimeter game.
Dinar makes an AWESOME point! Why cant Ellis make a dedicated % of his plays in the perimeter game? Why cant we add a bit of Georges Niang type of in/out, keep-you-guessing type of game out of Ellis? Ellis is a smoother finisher than Niang, and has a face up game, without question. His shot mechanics on his 3ball looks good. His .455 3shooting is great, but small sample size (5 of 11). Interpretation: bring that long-athletic opposing 4man OUT of the paint, and open things up for a cutting KU PG,SG,3F…or open more space for the 5man to work, and get better odds of an offensive rebound (with that opposing 4man out on the periphery with Ellis).
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@DinarHawk I like your point, as well. While he doesn’t match up well inside, he has the skill set to change the match-up from simply being a post match-up, to a “whole floor” type game. The Niang example pointed out by @ralster is an excellent one. I like it …
But on the topic from above, @ralster, don’t you think part of the reason Embiid struggled vs. Ridley was because of his knee injury? I think so. I am really anxious to see what happens next time out.
@ralster - Also, on the press – your macro view is absolutely correct. Elite athletes can beat a press. Well coached elite athletes (men, at least) will destroy it. But I would say that running a full court press all the time is not what really anyone advocates. I certainly don’t.
To start with, my view is pressing against a team like TCU is not necessary. Why blitz and take the risk, so to speak, when your base D will win you the game? Vs. TCU, we got a steal and a bucket off the press. Then TCU broke it immediately and scored. But I like Self doing it to at least work on it.
Couple things on the press. First, you can’t just “press” in my opinion. You have to practice it and be very good at it. Otherwise, breakdowns are more frequent. It’s like anything else. Second, I like using it sporadically. Spring it on them, then go base D, then use it again – all situational and sporadic. The element of surprise being a part of its effectiveness. Third, the use of a full court press (like we saw vs. TCU) and a 3/4 court press (like OSU’s 2-2-1) are much different animals. The latter can be used regularly.
I think a 3/4 court press can be more incorporated as a regular part of your defense, perhaps 30-40% of the time. But a full court press very sporadically, as your point about elite level athletes killing it is dead on point. I’m not a man to man guy. I think you have to have the right personnel to rely on man to man. You have to have the right type of defenders. If not, then you have to go zone. @jesse_newell and I had this discussion back in November. With this team, I thought we are tailor made to play zone. But that ship has long since sailed.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
With this team, I don’t know how you can say any player is the most important one. Every game someone steps up more than others. These guys do a great job of playing within the team concept. I think Wiggins does a great job playing TEAM ball. When he does his spin moves in to the lane, that is what Self wants him to do. On Perry’s second 3, Wiggins dribbled into the lane and dished out to Perry for the three. These guys are unselfish. Wouldn’t trade any of them.
As far as the press goes, I just watched the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half. 2 steals, a five second call and a forced TCU timeout…in my opinion, playing a full court press, gets the players in a higher energy mindset. I think they play harder, get juiced from some easy baskets, which fires you up to play even harder on D! Even if you give up an easy basket, it’s worth it in the long run. This team feeds off of great plays by each other.
As far as Embiid coming back, I’m hoping we bring him off the bench. Have Tarik set the tone. Embiid has been so beat up. I really want him to be strong when we get Texas at home! We owe them!
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Big games against weak opponents are fool’s gold, at worst, and therapeutic confidence builders enabled by coaches at best.
Andrew Wiggins hung 29 on a nobody. It was therapy. And it didn’t help. It gave him false confidence. The only big game Wiggins has had that mattered was against Duke, and that was early when opponents don’t know what they are doing.
Perry for 32 on 13-15 FGs?
It’s great! It’s wonderful. It’s delightful.
But it doesn’t mean squat.
We already knew he could go off on chumps; that was never the issue.
What he did against KSU, was way more important as a gauge of his trend line.
What Perry needs are two straight 15/10 nights against ranked teams with 4s that are taller and stronger.
That will confirm he has arrived.
@jaybate 1.0-Now available…40 lbs of Iron Pyrite on ebay for only $229.00…
nuleafjhawk last edited by
@DoubleDD There’s no way to say this without sounding like " that guy ", but I swear at the beginning of the season, I mentioned that at the end of the year our MVP would be Perry Ellis. The guy is just a machine.
@ralster How about the TeleTubbies? LOL
@HighEliteMajor I hope we get some much needed revenge against Texas @ AFH
@Crimsonorblue22 Cant use the press all the time, we’ll get eaten alive but yah in theory we use it to get our defensive intensity up, then when it gets beat or we feel like it, we switch back to M2M, lock them down.
@jaybate 1.0 Gary King and the Enablers
@Lulufulu85 just like to press to jump start our energy level!
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REHawk last edited by REHawk
As Ellis’ midrange shooting numbers escalate it becomes more and more apparent that his defensive struggles lie in the fact that he is playing out of position at the 4. Keegan’s article of the 17th focuses on Perry’s sense of perfectionism, his psychological bent to master skills per gradients. Jaybate has long clamored for Ellis to earn the opportunity to play more at the 3 spot, tho other posters insist that he hasn’t the quickness to handle defensive assignments from the 3 position in the college game. I’m wagering that if a healthy Embiid returns, and if Alexander quickly adjusts to college level play, Perry earns at least half his minutes at the 3 position next season. Lotsa IFs, but that is my take on the starting makeup of the 3,4,5 positions, at least at the start of next season. Oubre’s possible quick ascension might muddle that thinking. One thing of which I feel more certain (another IF): If Perry stays aboard a fourth season, he will become the McDermott of Division 1 basketball, 2015-16.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by JayHawkFanToo
Article about Wiggins from hutch news, makes me mad and wonder how many games this writer has seen. Hope this works!
@DinarHawk I concur. It is the strength that Ellis hasn’t figured out yet. He has often taken that mid range jumper in the flow of the game. However he rarely makes it a point to look for that shot.
Jayhawkfantoo, thanks for linking me up! Nice to have help. Hope everyone is reading that article. I wrote the writer a note. I was civil! But I did say the only thing he had right was that Wiggins was an awesome talent. Speaking of civil, have we heard from him?
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
“All positive qualities. But against PFs that are long and athletic, he many times disappears.”
I totally agree!
I got excited from the TCU game because that is the Perry Ellis I watched play at Wichita Heights HS. This TCU game represents the first real step Perry has made to being his old self in HS. His game didn’t translate over because college has some big, physical post players that Perry didn’t contend with in HS.
It is all about taking Perry out of the hypothetical. Away from his concept of working hard for perfection. Treating basketball like it’s a school study… like algebra or social studies.
Basketball is a game of talent and skills… but in the end it is will and perseverance that determines winners. Talent can get smashed by someone who brings will and physical presence to the post.
I wish I could trade 20% of Perry’s toolbox for 20% of Charles Barkley.
Perry has decided he is a 3 at the next level. He will have to make a gigantic transformation before he is a talented 3 at the next level. First… he needs to become proficient at 3. And then… he has to learn to score from 3 with a guy his size guarding him on the line. He has to learn better dribbling skills… far better.
He has one of the best skill sets out there (at any level) at the 4 spot. He just doesn’t have the strength and will to own that spot on stronger players.
It would be a much easier path for Perry to go to the gym and build his strength more… and then compliment his game by working on his perimeter game. He should get away from this concept that it is a negative to be a 'tweener in the NBA… because the NBA is starting to realize that tweener players have a dominant role in the success of the team. Tweeners bring a different skill set, and opposing teams have to adjust their match ups.
The 3-pt game is where the NBA is going… so if Perry can be a talented tweener who can bomb the 3… he’ll have a longgggg NBA career! If he abandons his 4 game, then he’ll leave behind his entire life of work (and all those skills) in pursuit of something he will, most likely, become just mediocre at in comparison to the competition level.
I hope he does earn a few minutes at the 3 next year… but continues to master the 4, but with abilities to nail the 3.
The first thing Perry needs to do is learn to own the 4. Over this summer he needs to go to the Chiefs training camp and learn how to eat meat. Build serious muscle all summer, and make sure he keeps his same post toolbox with his new muscles. AW3 can show him how to build mass… along with the master… Hudy!
drgnslayr last edited by
“The problem for Ellis is that he makes the mistake of trying to go inside against them, and in doing so gets his shot blocked.”
Perry just hasn’t learned the skills to score on people bigger and stronger than him. He needs to stay inside… and he needs to learn to use his opponent’s body to draw fouls while he creates just enough space to score.
That’s what you see from good guards… even tiny point guards who take it right into the heart of the post and score on guys a foot taller than them.
Perry doesn’t use his body as a shield and as a tool to create scoring space. When he learns that skill… he’ll actually draw closer to defenders… forcing the contact to draw fouls and reduce their ability to contest the shot.
Perry also needs to add head/shoulder/ball fakes to his repertoire. If you caught the Florida/UK game this past weekend Florida put on a clinic in using those fakes in the post. Calipari spent hours trying to prep his guys to face all those ball fakes and they still fell for them and went airborne early.
I think the point about Perry stepping outside and hitting the jumper (not necessarily a 3 pointer) when he is matched up against a bigger guy is a great one. I have often yelled at the TV for him to do just that. If he does that a few times, he then might be able to use his quickness and drive right around some of the bigger guys. I think Embiid is the one key (if forced to pick one) to our success. However, teams will double him. He has to be able to continue to learn to properly handle the double and we have to make teams pay for that. I think he / we will.