So National Championships Matter?
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
First let me say I’m not trying to bash or open up any old wounds. Merely trying to have a civil conversation on the topic of National Championships and get a feel for where everybody is.
So now I’m going to play with fire. Hopefully I don’t get burned. I’m going to ask a some questions. Answers I don’t have mind you.
Is Roy a better Coach than Self, or is it just tougher to win a National Championship at KU than other Blue Bloods? Now let me zero on what I’m saying and pointing at. Indiana has disappeared off the map since Knight left, and UCLA made most of their claims in a one time period with the one they call the Wizard. Yet Duke, UNC, and Kentucky seem to ring the bell on a regular basis.
Look at Roy with KU he was a great coach and we all loved him. Yet the mindset was starting to set in, he couldn’t win the coveted National Championship. Roy took the job at KU in 1988 with his first season being 1989. He coached till 2003. That would be 15 seasons right? (Check my math) He took the UNC job in 2003 and still holds that job to date. So that would be roughly 14 years? (again check my math). Roy with KU no championships, yet so close. Roy with UNC has 3 count them 3 championships.
This is going to burn. So does any KU fan think that Kentucky, and Duke and UNC won’t win another championship in the next 10 years? Are there any KU fans willing to guarantee KU will win a National Championship in the next 10 years?
Now I’m going to surprise you with this. Putting water on the fire. Hopefully? Roy is 66? K is 70? Cal is 58? Coach is 54?
I look for Cal to make another run at the NBA. However if he doesn’t. The Team full of OAD’s experiment has mixed results. It would appear. That the laws of basketball prevail even over the best of talents. One you have to have a dominant point guard, and Two you have to have a dominant center. Sure Cal can find that combination again. After all he gets all the talent.
The OAD maybe the down fall of Coach K. Not sure he has the fortitude and mindset to unlock the potential of a team full of OAD’s. Coach Roy comes and goes. We seen it at KU. He finds the right recipe of players and he makes a two or three your run and then falls back to the pack. He’s 66 can he find the recipe again here real soon?
Coach Self? Well I think he’s on a mission for perfection. Once he figures how to beat you, well he’s relentless. Oh he will have that hiccup once in awhile. Yet hey teams have off nights. It happens. Coach Self is an x and o mastermind. Just look at his run of Big 12 conference Championships. Yes you can make the case the Big 12 isn’t this or that. My rebuttal would be it’s hard, damn hard to do what Coach has done in this modern day of basketball. Plus he is still only 58.
Notice how Cal and K are all sold on OAD’s? Not so sure Coach is. Now I know KU and Coach go after all the OAD’s, yet notice Coach is always looking for that project player? That player that needs some time in Coach’s oven?
Sorry I stirred you all wrong on a National Championship last year, yet Coach is getting close to cracking the formula. I feel it in my bones. If Coach can rattle of the Conference Championship win streak, in a power conference mind you. Why not in the national tournament? After all he’s only 58.
We just have to keep them damn Spurs at bay.
Isn’t Self 54 years old?
hawkmoon2020 last edited by
There you go stirring the hornets nest. LOL Sure, it sucks not winning 1 or 2 or more NC with Roy and/or Bill, but since 2004, here are some stats: UNC - 3 Duke - 2 FL - 2 (say what?) UCONC (say double what?) KU - 1 UK - 1 I don’t think there is huge mystery. Frustration, yes. Mystery? I dunno. It’s just really damn hard to win a NC given the NCAA Championship format no matter what team you have. Ask the 14-15 UK team that went 38-1.
HighEliteMajor last edited by
To answer your question, I will guarantee KU wins a national championship in the next 10 years. Like Namath in the Super Bowl. No doubt. I would be absolutely shocked if we don’t have one in the next five seasons.
jayballer54 last edited by
@DoubleDD - - na, no wars. - a lot of what you say is true. - I can’t bring myself to say Roy is a better Coach then Coach Self though. Roy was never, able to win a National Championship here WHY? - - Still the same Coach, Yet Coach Self has, true not 3 just one But still same School. Might lend some credence about location. Ove the years I’ve heard and I’m sure we all have at various times, that it’s harder to recruit here - -not just here but harder then in those area’s
Here is a question to you - - -Is Roy in the Hall of fame? Self has obviously accomplished quite a bit to be elected at this stage of his career, and I’m pretty sure ROY will be - - -BUT not yet. So I think more goes into it of who is a better Coach then just titles , so this is where I would have to say I have doubts that over all Roy is better than Coach. - -2nd. - - Did Roy win 13 straight big 12 championships while at KU? - - The answer would be No. - - again WHY ? - - so does that mean Coach Self has been able to recruit better here at KU then Roy did? I kinda feel they kids were pretty much of equal- - maybe Coach Self has recruited better athletes here, But the question is - -if Roy is a Better coach why couldn’t he win a Championship here - -why wasn’t he able to win 13 straight big 12 championships?
One key word you used in your thread - - - -guarantee, - -asking is there any KU fan that could guarantee KU would win a NC in the next ten years. - - The answer is NO. - I know I can’t & I seriously doubt if anyone would. My question to you is can you Guarantee that Kentucky - - Duke - - or N Carolina will? – Chances a very good that they will BUT GUARANTEE? - - -pretty strong word.
Far as San Antonio , I just don’t see it happening. - - I might be the ONLY one that feels this way , but the way I look at it is , If Coach turned down his alma Mater , the school from where he graduated, and play his college ball at and they came at him with Boone Pickens check book pretty much wide open with a blank check and he turned them down, saying Ku was the greatest place to coach - -He isn’t going anywhere. True Coaching pro would eliminate all the stress of the recruiting and such - -BUT in the NBA you have a team full of attitudes , Who would really be the Coach? The player? or Coach Self? - Example - -like Lebron - - Carmelo, to name a couple, Do we think that’s what coach Really wants? he want that in exchange for what he calls the greatest fans, the greatest place to Coach? - -He likes to teach, develop, coach - -I just don’t think he is going anywhere. - -Very good post DD enjoy the conversation, - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Lulufulu last edited by
Coach is 54. You were right the first time there buddy.
Sure, Titles matter! Sure they do! Is Roy a better coach than Bill Self? NO way man. No way. @jaybate-1-0 will wax philosophic basketball alllll day long on this topic. This is about east coast bias. Take a look at the last 10 years for example. Which team that won the national title didnt belong to the east coast mega media outlet?
ZERO. thats how many. Well shoot 2008 was 9 years ago so change that number to 1. Every other team to win the national title since then has been attached to the east coast. Uconn, Duke, UNC, Louisville, Kentucky…all of them. Its stacking the decks in the favor of the east coast because thats where all the money is in college ball.
Will KU win another title during Bill Self’s tenure? I sure believe he will get another ring, hang another banner, cut down more nets. He is just too good.
Good post by the way. Thought provoking.
Lulufulu last edited by
@jayballer54 Roy is in the HOF! I had to check my self bcuz I wasnt sure. He got in back in 07 I believe.
But still, head to head match up between Coach Self and WIlliams? I’ll take Bill every day of the week. He is undefeated against Roy. He beat him once when he was at Illinois and then 3 times since hes been at KU. Thats no fluke. He is just better.
jayballer54 last edited by
@Lulufulu Oh really? - -Well guess one of my points just got shot all to hell huh lol. -I didn’t realize Roy had been inducted , well good for him. - -I like you will STILL take Bill. Thanks for the information. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@jayballer54 Like I have said before, Ol Roy may have won a championship or two or more if he had recruited the entire nation. He did damn good while recruiting only half the nation. Coach Self has had quite a few very good players from the East coast. Roy had none. I wonder how many years KU was just one really good player short of winning it all under Roy. Guess we will never know. Still makes me very upset to think about it. We were cheated!!
approxinfinity last edited by
Bill is a better coach and a better man. Championships matter but they matter more when good guys win them. Bill Self is a Jedi. Everyone loves Star Wars. Why doesn’t everyone love Bill Self? Not enough special effects? This is an opportunity for a great Late Night skit.
Why hasn’t a team west of the Mississippi (other than Kansas) won since Arizona? So Kansas, Arizona, Arkansas, UNLV, and UCLA are the only schools in recent history, right?
That’s what sticks out to me. Also, how many more titles would Roy have won at KU had he recruited from the east coast?
Well, if one follows this line of logic, then KU is an underdog! We can’t recruit like the east coast gold standard programs do, so we have to rely on transfers, Midwest recruits, mining hidden gems (like the guy we got 4 years ago who originally signed with Appalachian state), and yes, superior coaching. our coach is … well let’s just say most off us wouldnt trade him for anyone in the game right now. We have to work harder to beat the east coast giants.!!!
So who doesn’t love rooting for an underdog?? This is what makes it sweeter when we do win a national championship ( and we will, odds are going to eventually fall in our favor)
drgnslayr last edited by
I think we have to deal with just not existing on the east coast. It seems easier for them to recruit the top shelf talent. They get most of the press and young players feel like going east is their ticket to the NBA.
Struggles should make you tougher. I think the challenge we have here is making us tougher. Look at Bill. He’s been changing a lot in recent years, not settling for where he is at. Does he have a ways to go? I think he still does, but he is young and full of potential, too. We look at players all the time and assess them… but I look at Bill, too, and I like how he has advanced his game in the past couple of years.
I sometimes think that a few years ago, when we flipped off the tap from BG and others to pound the ball into the post (creating “BAD BALL”) was a pivot point for Bill. The writing was on the wall, and Bill then knew that he had to offer more than “Iba ball” if he was going to advance his drive for winning.
Life really isn’t about winning the big prize. It’s about the journey. I know people hear that all the time and often dismiss it, but it is the truth. I really enjoy this journey, full of joy and struggle at the same time. We have an opportunity to constantly grow and improve, and eventually you all know another National Championship is coming to Kansas. The question is “when?”
This year was fabulous, except for the bitter end. And it was one of the more bitter endings for me because of my fondness for Frank and feeling like he isn’t going to leave Kansas without a National Championship. I did really believe that. And I still believe we were the team to beat in March. We just didn’t quite have enough “chip” to get us there while UNC proved how big their chip was.
What we don’t need now is panic. Making changes just for the sake of making changes. I believe Bill is on the right path, he just needs to stick with it and continue to grow and find other ways to win. He seems to be more driven now and matching the drive he had before ever winning a title.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
The evidence, frankly, is undeniable that Roy is a better coach than Bill Self when it comes to results (the ultimate judge) – Just since Roy left, Roy has won 8 ACC titles, been to 6 Final Fours, and has won 3 national titles. Self is a full two-thirds behind Roy’s curve on the big ones (Self 2 FF and 1 NC), and I think a reasonable mind might agree that 8 ACC titles is more impressive than 13 Big 12 titles, particularly when you have teams that actually win national titles in the ACC (including arguably the best program in the last 25 or so years in Duke).
Folks, that is irrefutable evidence. In court proceedings, it might not be “beyond a reasonable doubt”, but it is certainly “clear and convincing”.
That said, it is more fair to judge Bill Self vs. Roy when Self is 66 years old. The evidence at that point in time could be different. Self would need four final fours and two national titles in that time frame, with another 8 league titles, in the next 12 seasons to compare.
drgnslayr last edited by
Or you can flip that…
Roy Williams - 15 years at Kansas, ZERO National Championships while there.
Bill Self - 14 years at Kansas, ONE National Championship.
I don’t think we can compare the two fairly when considering different schools are involved. But both served almost equal terms at the same school, Kansas.
I do think Roy would have won at least a championship at Kansas had he recruited from the entire country!
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@drgnslayr You could. And it is a good point. The last 13 seasons, it’s Roy in a knockout over everyone though. Not just Self.
With that, Roy took over a program that was on probation. Roy went to four final fours. Self took over a program in perfect shape and has only managed two. My point though, of course, is not to bash Self at all. I just think Roy is the undisputed best coach in CBB since he left KU. Self is probably 3rd behind coach K.
But really, using a more clean chronological cut off, Roy is the best CBB coach of this century – which adds in two more final fours to his impressive record.
We can certainly say that, and also say that we would not trade coach Self right now for any other coach. I would rather have Self’s next 10 seasons than any other coach in CBB (hope we get those 10 seasons).
Roy is a Jayhawk, and we can take great pride in his accomplishments.
Drgnslayr said “Life really isn’t about winning the big prize. It’s about the journey. I know people hear that all the time and often dismiss it, but it is the truth. I really enjoy this journey, …”
Me too - well said. Love the journey. The journey has been a source of joy and excitement and passion and fun (and yes pain too, but hey anything worth caring about involves some pain) I love the program, and think we are lucky to be fans. And yes , hopefully soon, one of our teams will make it thru the 6 game gauntlet to win the Championship and there will be much rejoicing
DoubleDD Banned last edited by
@HighEliteMajor Or Could it be? It’s just easier to win at UNC than KU? I know us KU fans pound our chest and claim Blue Blood, and the founder of the game. As if somehow KU invented the game?
I’m getting in hot water. Damn.
Let me ask you this to twist your mind? What if UNC took Coach Self instead of hounding Roy? Would the numbers still pan out as they are today? Would Roy still be chasing that elusive National Championship? Would Coach Self be making claims as the best coach in a century? Look at Cal at UK? Sure dude can recruit, but he wasn’t getting the recruits like he is now at Kentucky. Even Coach K got his fair share of talent, yet he just flips a switch and now he’s bringing stacks of OAD talent.
Somebody mentioned the East Coast advantage. Maybe it is true? Maybe us KU fans should temper our expectations a bit. Now we’re still a blue blood and one of the top programs in the country. Yet maybe it’s just time to realize KU isn’t Duke, UK, and UNC. Winning the National Championship at KU is just a bit harder.
Maybe just maybe it will be that much sweeter when Coach goes on that National Championship run we all feel is coming?
Sorry not trying to offend anybody. Just talking and conversing. Trust me next season I’ll be talking about how KU is going to win it all.
wissox last edited by
Been away for a few days doing more important things, like seeing my kids. i’ve enjoyed the discussion. I tend to agree with the original post. I enjoyed Roy at KU a lot, got frustrated like the rest of us when we flamed out every year. Not sure if he shortchanged us recruitingwise. He put a lot of players in the league. 5 times Roy lost in the dance to the eventual national champ. As disappointing as Syracuse, Maryland, Arizona, UNC and Duke losses were, you could argue at least three of those we’d probably win in a best of 3 or 5.
We’ve been really close the last several years. Not sure why Self teams, as some have pointed out, just really flame out badly in the dance. When was our last exciting close game loss where we played well? Michigan? Awful end, but we dominated a national runner up that in my view got screwed out of the title. Villanova was close but I don’t think we played very well that night. All it takes is one or two more titles and Bill Self’s name is talked about with all the other greats. Lets hope it happens soon.
Bill is overall a better coach but Roy’s record is better in NCAA tournament. Bill seems to get tight in NCAA, elite 8 is his Achilles heels. Having said that Bill is changing and adapting his coaching so I am optimistic about his future in the tournament.
KUSTEVE last edited by KUSTEVE
@DoubleDD The lightbulb came on for Roy. Before his first championship, the whole world said the same things about Roy as they do now about Bill concerning the tournament. I personally feel we are being outmaneuvered in that 2nd game of the 2nd week. They are more ready for us than we are for them. Our offense gets completely stymied year after year in that Elite 8 game. Look at the offensive firepower we brought to the Elite 8 game - and we score 60 points. Player of the year. Possible number 1 pick in the NBA draft. Wow. We weren’t playing vintage Georgetown with Ewing and company…we were playing a team that wasn’t at full strength because they had lost their rim protector. And we were dominated.
Now, that said…just because we haven’t doesn’t mean we can’t. We did it in 2008, so, it’s there. But, there is certainly a disconnect going on because no one will convince me that we couldn’t have won against those arrogant wanna bes.