Jackson misdemeanor
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@HighEliteMajor so… I’m on the fence on the suspension. On one hand I agree it would be a deterrent to the kid, on the other hand there are two parties here. So a punishment for ones negative action is also a reward for anothers. Is it not encouragement to the other party that they can screw with a basketball player knowing that any retaliation will result in a public shaming? I agree of course, damaging a car isn’t appropriate, but we’ve got a pattern now of girls screwing with our players and then publicly shaming them for their response. So in that light I can see how private disciplining disarms that weapon.
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@Blown It was Bragg’s 2nd infraction.
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@HighEliteMajor The truth is, it doesn’t matter what you or I think about the way the situation was handled. What is done is done. I find it ironic that you choose to barely post the entire year until this incident occurred.
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@Blown said:
@mayjay are you suggesting he won’t be charged with the misdemeanor crime of property damage? If he is charged and convicted are you suggesting JJ punishment shouldn’t be in line with similar infractions from current and past players ?
Not entirely, but I am saying that the process shouldn’t be accelerated to suspension just because Josh is OAD. If the police hadn’t taken so long,the charges could have been leveled in early January, and that would have left a lot of time for arraignment and possible resolution by plea or diversion.
I do think diversion is a realistic possibility for any non-sexual-assault misdemeanor. And the time it has been percolating could play a factor in whether the prosecutor thinks JJ is a good candidate.
As @Crimsonorblue22 pointed out, the difference between this and Bragg’s quick suspensions could be the existence of prior issues with Bragg. And remember, his first puublic instance was an assault charge. Even though dropped, it came out there was a September incidence investigated as well. So the drug charge was a 2nd or 3rd strike (depending on if you count the dropped charges as either nothing because exonerated, or something, because it was avoidable trouble), meriting a quick suspension until resolved by the diversion decision. Josh’s is the first.
Remember, we don’t know when these things were brought to Self. If JJ and Vick went directly to him, a few points on their side for candor. We only know when they went public. I am surprised we never got rumors since last year of Vick’s alleged assault, and that last semester’s events all came out so long after the fact. Has the Board lost our inside contacts in the student body?
Finally, the big elephant in the room looming over everything is the rape investigation, even though arguably people have compiled timelines suggesting that no KU player could have been the perp. But that is the thing that has caused most people around the country to start believing the worst. It is guilt by association.
I just think we don’t impose more drastic punishments for events prior to that because of getting fed up from hearing about it.
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@truehawk93 Roflmao, OH ya, – -I can just see it now lo, - - like I said, REAL UNCOMFORTABLE. that’s pretty good, I like that lol. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Lets be honest with ourselves, Coach Self has a double standard on such matters. I am not taking anything away from him on what he has accomplished as a Coach and I have praised him immensely. However, on such legal matters he treats players and staff differently, recall how he handled the situation related to Snack, Traylor and now JJ versus how he handled Green, Mario, Bragg etc. JJ is a great player, best OAD KU has had so far, but there is no excuse for not suspending him and Coach is calling him a Great Ambassador for KU.
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Let’s try it this way – Self’s punishment, when we all look at it with his knowledge, may actually be reasonable. Let’s acknowledge that. That’s fair. The point was made that Self has earned our trust. That is very true.
Even with that, there are two very good reasons to suspend JJ that trump whatever inside knowledge Self has.
There are no denials that JJ pursued a female into a parking lot of a bar, after she threw a drink in his buddy’s face. Then damaged her car by kicking it. In fact, Self has admitted it occurred by saying he punished JJ for it already.
First, without a suspension for JJ, it makes our program look very bad. So if you forget the discussion on whether the action warrants suspension, that is perhaps something everyone can agree on – this looks bad for KU. I would also say it looks bad for Self. You purposely follow a girl out of a bar and damage her vehicle, because she threw a drink in your buddy’s face, and punishment is internal? Anywhere else, we’d be mocking that program or coach. I didn’t raise my sons to do that to a woman (or a man, but we can acknowledge the difference). I bet most of you didn’t, either. And I bet most of you, if your son played sports, would feel a suspension of your son would be warranted, regardless of the girl that was part of it. Again, why?
That brings me to point number two – because it is a terrific life lesson – there are many folks sitting in the Lansing penitentiary that escalated an incident. I would want my son to learn that lesson through punishment on something that is rather benign in the scheme of life, that might deter future conduct. And that goes to @approxinfinity’s post regarding the dilemma in dealing with a bad actor on the other side (which we are just assuming at this point). Regarding escalation, remember, it can go further. The young lady could of course have a gun and with an angry 6’8" man damaging her car, one might wonder if she should seek to defend herself. That’s the risk of escalation. I would want JJ to be punished strongly to demonstrate to him the seriousness of escalation.
Mind you, this is not just responding, which is different. This is not JJ standing in a bar and a guy swings at him, and JJ responds and decks him. This situation with the young lady was clear escalation.
To that issue, what if this young lady is your daughter? I would not want my daughter throwing a drink in any man’s face to begin with. Also, there are freaks that will punch (escalation) you for it (such as the animal from OU that decked that young lady we saw on video). But would anyone with a daughter believe it to be reasonable for a man to damage her car because of it? I hope not.
Also, is JJ Vick’s defender? The girl didn’t throw the drink in JJ’s face, right? So JJ intervenes AND escalates.
Last point – really, under the law, what the girl did in throwing the drink in his face was committing a battery. Folks have been charged with a battery for spitting on someone. Just a thought there.
Ok, really last point – if there is a punishment of JJ that anyone feels is more severe to JJ, meaning more impactful to him that sitting on the bench in street clothes for the world to see, let me know what that is.
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I have noticed in the last three weeks that Josh has been doing some community outreach, reading for elementary schools, visiting classes and answering questions. He has apologized to the victim and has offered to pay for all repairs. Like the Lady Jay that threw a drink in a teammate’s face, Danny Manning got in trouble while in the NBA for throwing his drink in a woman’s face.
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You can read how Bill handles Markeif Morris’ alcohol/BB gun incident. (Above link from Aug 20 of 2008 )
In summary, handled in house.
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Let’s cut to the chase: when you perform on the court, you get a longer leash. For those that support justice, that is the hardest part to accept.
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@Blown what about Brady?
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@dylans also remember how he handled Tharpes racy photo–he mysteriously leaves the team.
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@Blown said:
Let’s cut to the chase: when you perform on the court, you get a longer leash. For those that support justice, that is the hardest part to accept.
I think people, having effed up, who demonstrate that they are bearing down on their responsibilities are always treated more leniently for minor offenses. Go to some bail/bond hearings and see how often having a job with a boss coming in to testify about good character results in the judge giving people a break.
Justice is supposed to be blind, not ignorant.
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@Crimsonorblue22 suspended an entire semester wasn’t he?
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Ignorant ? Wow.
This is my last post on this subject.
Becoming enraged over an altercation that didn’t involve him, chasing after a female and committing criminal property damage is not a minor infraction, imo. That seems to be where we differ in opinion.
Also, fwiw in my opinion there is a slight difference in taking responsibility for something and paying for the consequences of your actions. Taking responsibility is proactive and paying consequences is reactive.
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@Blown Apologies. Ignorant wasn’t describing you. I meant Justice is not to be uninformed of the character of the people appearing in the dock.
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@Blown he ran out of chances.
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Whoa put down the pitch forks and the gasoline. Now take a deep breath, raise your hands to shoulder length, close your eyes, and touch your nose. I will give you a moment to complete the task.
Lets understand and view a few things here. I know KU has been getting beat up this year with these charges. Right or wrong the media has been on these occurrences like a crazed dog. however lets not panic. The sky isn’t falling and in fact the future is quite bright.
There are three things I want you to consider before reaching your conclusions.
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Kids will be kids. If you’ve never been to or grown up in a ghetto area, it’s hard to put things in prospective. What you might see as unacceptable behavior, is a way of life in these troubled areas. It really is a perception thing. It’s all in how you perceive things. All we see is that JJ was convicted of property damage. Yet why did it happen and what caused JJ to reach a point that he would do damage? It appears to me that this Jezebel or lady, has been creating a lot of problems for the men’s basketball team. It appears as more facts come out that this Jezebel started this altercation, by seeking out Vick and throwing a drink in his face. Keep in mind Vick was on probation because of his relationship to this Jezebel. He’s not going any where near this girl. She sought and tracked him down. Right or wrong JJ was defending his brother. It happens all the time with boys/young men.
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The problem with the media isn’t that they don’t report. Yet they don’t follow up on what they’ve reported. It really is a disservice to the fans and people in general. Too many people still think that Bragg pushed that Jezebel down. Yet you don’t now that unless you are invested or have a interest in the issue. In this I think Coach has nailed it. He’s not going to dole out punishment until a conviction is handed down, or a confession is made. JJ’s situation was already handled in house. Tells me JJ told Coach the truth and confessed to what he did. Sound like a bad kid or program to you?
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Of course Coach not punishing JJ in front of the world to see looks bad. However who cares? It’s not like the media and the talking heads are going to give the topic it’s proper due. News/Media butters their bread with negative news. They’re not going to give KU and Coach props for doing what they perceive to be the right thing to do. The News/Media are about tearing down not building up. These issues will blow over like the seasons of the year. Here today gone tomorrow. Nobody really cares but those that are truly invested in the perception of the KU program, or the demise of it.
If Coach is comfortable with playing JJ, then so it shall be. Besides who knows these kids better than Coach?
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@HighEliteMajor you make good points. The female should be punished also. All involved should not have been there late at night and hopefully they avoid that in the future.
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@DoubleDD I think the issue is some are viewing this as coach giving Josh the star treatment. IMO, he should have been suspended when Coach first learned of it. I do fear that this will damage his reputation amongst coaches and the athletic department in general. I would have thought at least a one game suspension would have been the minimum, but ultimately we have no control over these things. They need to tighten things up to prevent an incident like this from happening again.
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@Blown I’m not justifying anything. If KU wants to be the program we all desire and expect, we wouldn’t have a team. It’s a bit like the Geneva Convention. The US will play by the ROEs, but will others? H-E-L-L NO.
So, my point @Blown, if all other programs play by the “rules” and suspend players for greater than or less than offenses? Great, lets suspend players. But you know other programs will NEVER, I mean NEVER suspend players. Coaches get it, I get it, and most others do to. It’s ridiculous to penalize your program when other programs will not penalize themselves.
Again, there are no excuses and HCBS can do whatever he wishes. But in the end, why should KU suffer and have the “higher” standard, whatever that means and allow other programs to succeed? This is the problem with college bball. We’ve lost all sense of integrity and athletic standards.
“But we are KU…” Yes, BUT, why should we have a higher standard than other programs? To get recruits? LOL Get NCAA points? LOL Get more wins? LOL Recruits don’t care about a programs “off court” issues. They want to win and get to the NBA, PERIOD. If that were the case, UK would’ve failed to get the OADs they’ve gained over the years. You could argue, “yeah, and look at the their program, no one likes them either.” But they’ve won how many NC since Cal has arrived? Two in a very short amount of time? Show me a program, other than KU, who has applied suspensions or penalties, maintained a stellar reputation as solid program, and then WON championships. You can’t because they need the players they have to WIN. This is why they recruit them. What’s the point in recruiting them if you’re going to suspend them for something minor? You have to take a risk on these recruits. We’ve suspended players for some really common stuff and we LOSE every time, but hey we’re KU. Dook, UNC, and UK, and now many others are winning with little to no suspensions or player penalties. You think people are looking at KU and saying, “what a great program, they suspend players for off court issues”? I doubt it.
@Blown So, are you ready to suspend Josh Jackson right now? You nor I know the whole story to this mess. I think it’s funny how we want to PENALIZE or SUSPEND players when we don’t know the whole story. I’m sure if HCBS knew this was going to get ugly or be problematic, he would in fact bench JJ, wins be damn.
@Blown I don’t disagree with you, I just want to be realistic on this issue.
I’m going to let HCBS make those decisions. It’s what he’s paid to do. All we can do is support and hope for the best. Bottom line, I want to win like the next team. I don’t want KU to suffer if other programs don’t own up to their off court crap.
RCJHGOKU and Beat the Horns
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Good read.
I’m just not sure the police and DA have the same heart they had back in our day… even though I had crazy things happen back in the 70s and 80s. For example, I’m in another guy’s car and he gets pulled over and they brought drug dogs into his car and found 3 pot seeds buried in the back seat. This was in Texas, and at that time they gave a minimum 10 year sentence on drug charges (with no parole). The police discussed with themselves whether 3 seeds was enough to get a conviction and there were 3 of us in the car and we were all going down. I had nothing to do with those pot seeds. We were let go… luckily.
Friggin’ crazy.
But I think back about everything else we got away with in our youth and police just let us go. Now they bust kids and give them a record, including felony record, and they do it too often.
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When coach K reinstated Allen from his suspension he was criticized on this board for being too soft and that suspension should have been much longer. Now some posters are saying who knows better than coach when JJ doesn’t get any suspension. Some folks have said that kids will be kids but don’t realize that these are not ordinary kids. They are student athletes on full scholarship with many other benefits representing an elite program. They get enough counseling on importance of avoiding conflicts. They need to conduct themselves in a civil manner. I think coach has put himself in a bad spot by not taking action on this case especially when so many off the court issues have happened this year. What message has he sent to other players, you won’t be punished if you’re a super star like JJ.
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@drgnslayr Not only do we not know the complete story, the freakin’ case hasn’t even gone to arraignment, let alone been adjudicated! The modern version of lynching is the internet demand for punishment.
One poster here said when this stuff first surfaced that “the facts don’t matter” because we should punish them because we have been so humiliated. And another says Devonte getting arrested justifies suspension regardless of any explanation he could possibly have.
Now those are well-reasoned responses to a difficult situation.
Okay, sermons are over. People who want to bail can bail. I won’t, not without more.
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Yeah… I didn’t see a reason to suspend Josh for this. My concern isn’t about any of the trouble this year, but just the fact that we’ve had so many situations, showing we need our guys to be monitored better off the court. It’s not like any of our guys are criminal types. But our guys are a target for every wannabe out there.
