Vick
-
@dylans Nice graph. Nice Rational comments. I like it.
I would like to expand on that if I may. I like being rational as much as possible. Rational without prejudgement is even better. Because, seriously anyone can make a rational argument for or against something and have prejudice attached to it, buried in there somewhere.
Regarding Vick. I smell a rat. I absolutely do not condone violence against women. If he did indeed transgress 2 years ago, it seems likely he would have been punished 2 years ago, yah? Yah. Why bring this out again? It doesnt make sense.
Lets not race to crucify Vick just yet shall we? As far as we know, he’s been the picture of good behavior. Who here thinks Bill Self would let anything like this slide? No way in hell.
Regarding Carlton and the alleged evidence. ITS just weed people. Its NOT that big of deal. Fact, Kansas has not legalized it for any use medicinal or otherwise. Fact, Cannabis has dozens of medicinal purposes. Fact, weed was criminalized back in the 20’s by a smear campaign from a wood baron who thought it would damage his business. It has remained illegal.
More opining than anything, I believe that players at KU should up hold their status as KU basketball players. FOLLOW THE RULES, go to class, play hard, study hard etc. If weed is illegal in Lawrence, but decriminalized, they need to keep their hands off it. Or, at very least, dont freeking get caught with it.
Im at work, so I’ll have to edit and add more to this later.
-
@Hawk8086 Video vindication? Which occurrence, # 1,2, or 3? Or would that be all of the above?
-
@tis4tim Very valid points Tim , jaybate or not. Who would ever want to do us harm - at least outside of a few in misery or the little “road”
??
-
The best approach, I think, is not to moralize either way on marijuana in this discussion. It’s a team rules violation regardless of our beliefs on the topic. Self apparently had a rule and he broke it. That analysis is pretty easy.
On Vick, I am most troubled by the possibility that Bill Self lied – saying he was sick.
I couple that with his clear deception (via carefully choosing his words) on the linkage of Bragg’s suspension.
Not that it really bothers me personally. It’s just that this is the sort of stuff that brings out the knives from certain quarters of our society.
Meanwhile, I saw that someone did ask Self about Maxwell and Self said he was gone from KU’s campus at the time.
-
If this news about Vick is true, this is private info. Self can not make comments about it. The school can not make comments. The Star should not be able to see these documents. I’m to busy to say more, but if my daughter was hit and kicked in the face there would be a police report.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 exactly. No police report, no story. This is the media grasping for straws.
-
@HawkChamp No story except that he seems to have violently laid hands on a woman. Not cool.
-
@wissox seems to?
-
Allegedly…
-
@wissox evidence? Videos? Statements to police? Witnesses? Police report? Again, if this really happened, this girl would have to be downright insane for not going to the police. This is not news unless there is real evidence which there has not proven to be.
-
@HighEliteMajor agreed on all counts HEM, except Bill Self has always been a straight hitter with us. He’s as honest as he can be and gives us the info that he can give, when he gets it. I cannot believe he would intentionally cover something up like this thing with Vick and marginalize this stuff with Bragg. Thats not him.
-
Thank you for being the voice of reason. There are several separate issues that by themselves are relatively small but when you start adding them up a faint pattern appears to emerge. Having visited with friends that are basketball fans, happen to live in various parts of the country and follow different team, I got the impression that KU is not an abnormal situation but rather the norm of what goes on at other programs and it is an extension of what happens with college students at large. The only difference is that some programs are better at keeping the issues under wraps and some are more successful, or as a cynic with say…have more experience dealing with this type of issues. Elite programs such as KU are under a microscope and every event is multiplied many fold and makes the national news.
As @Crimsonorblue22 mentioned, there seems to be a link between the Bragg and Vick incidents. At the time of the Bragg fiasco, it was mentioned that Vick apparently had an issue with the same woman…one of those things that makes you go hmmm…
I mentioned before that some women are attracted to sports stars and basically stalk them. I mentioned before a former Chiefs player whose girlfriend started to hit him he simple extended his arms to protect himself, she bumped against his hands and fell down; he was arrested and then charges dropped once the facts came to light. A few days later (you have got to question his judgment) when he was at her house she started to become abusive, he left the house and locked himself in his car and she started kicking his car, slipped on the ice and fell down…again, he was arrested and released…luckily he was able to afford a very good attorney. It happens. It has happened ever since Eve tricked Adam and Delilah destroyed Sampson and will continue happening as long as there are men and women. In all fairness, sometimes it works the other way as well.
Is it really that far fetched that the same girl is involved in all these incidents? Given the available information, and I will admit is thin, but it does not really sound that far fetched…the “nutso” lineage seems to be there, if you know what I mean.
Another item that needs to be consider in the Vick case is that it look like the issue was agreed by both parties to go to an in-house committee rather than filing a police report. The committee used the much lower “preponderance of evidence” threshold of proof rather than the more customary “beyond a reasonable doubt” threshold to reach a decision. Now, anyone of you that pays tuition for your kid and feels that you should be able to see his/her grades, you know that because of the privacy act you cannot. Likewise in this case, because of the privacy act, it is possible that the Athletic Department was not able to see the details of the investigation. One would think that Coach self would have some leverage, but in our current legal system he could have incurred some legal liability if he tried to use the leverage to learn about information protected by the privacy act. Perhaps @mayjay or any of the lawyers on the forum can chime in.
Snacks situation is a little more complicated. We all agree that he screwed up big, big time and the question is what should the punishment have been? Keep in mind that Snacks has been known to Coach Self ever since he played under him at Illinois and he knows better than all of us his character and the risk he took giving him a second chance. Anyone that has ever fired someone knows how difficult it is, particularly when the individual in question has a family to support. Most people fired are given a letter of some sort that many times skirts the real reason so as not to make that individual un-hireable. Because of the publicity, firing Snacks at the the time would have made him basically un-hireable in his field, not that he did not bring that on himself, but still…Coach Self made a decision to give him a second chance with a lot more information than we have and taking a personal risk, so it is unfair to second guess him. Sometimes we just have to trust his judgment.
I find it fishy that all these stories are suddenly coming to the forefront at this particular time…again, one of those things that makes you go hmmm…
-
@JayHawkFanToo the story I read, I think was from a comment on the star article on Bragg and the soofi girl. I’m assuming you all know who she is related to. The comment I read was about Vick being scared to death of her and he was hiding behind or under his bed when she came into the room. Remember he’s really young too. I can see various scenarios coming from this. As far as Self lying, he’s legally bound to
. That’s why he sat Bragg the first time, let it play out, let the police take care of it. Unfortunately Bragg screwed up. I read where fans are worried Self will get sick of this 
And go elsewhere. Who knows.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 I have read that too and it is a possibility. Of course, the NBA has a lot of drama queens and whiny babies, so its not like it is a stress free zone. Hopefully this stuff will blow over soon and we can all get back to thinking solely about the game and not this crap.
-
The more I talk to fans of other elite programs, the more I realize they are all pretty much the same and have the same issues…KU is not that different than most any other program, it simply is a bigger and easier target and has a lot more visibility.
-
I cannot imagine HCBS leaving. It would create huge ??? about whether he engaged in misconduct and was really forced out. He would leave under a cloud and people would never shut up about things they don’t know about.
-
We DO know no charges were filed at the time. We DON"T know if him kicking the girl in the face had to do with her grabbing his leg and not letting go, or whether he did a Bruce Lee roundhouse kick. We don’t know if punching her in the arm was a “slugbug”, or whether he frogged her. Some young ladies are very abusive because they know they can’t get in trouble for it. I dated a gal for awhile who was downright mean, and I have the scars on my arms to prove it. I’m not ready to :
1- Convict Vick w/o hearing all the details.
2-Blame/Dump Snacks because of what he did a few years back.
3- Not ready to run off CB for having a bong in his dorm. Don’t tell anyone, but I had a bong at Templin Hall.
-
@mayjay someone leaked private, personal matters about his player. According to those statements, not sure he knew, unless Vick told him. Tell me what happens w/that?
-
@mayjay agreed. No way Coach Self leaves KU because of this! No way. Its piddly stuff compared to other programs
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Dunno. If Self didn’t know, I would expect there will be some repercussions for Vick.
Part of my relatively laid-back response to all this is that we have no idea what came out in the KU hearing. The “preponderance of the evidence” standard allows a lot of possibilities since 1) it was a closed hearing; 2) there is neither a complaint nor an answer on the public record; 3) there is no summary of the evidence: and 4) no criminal charges were recommended.
It is entirely possible that there was a vague complaint, or that a mutual altercation occurred, with some slightly more probative evidence that Vick was more at fault than the woman. A recommendation of probation without requiring antiviolence counseling seems minimal to me.
In today’s culture, I would be shocked if Vick would have been allowed to stay on campus if it was an unprovoked or vicious attack.
-
@mayjay I mean how can it be leaked? Is there some kind of legal liability for this?
-
@Lulufulu I agree – he has always been honest, and we should presume the same. I’m just more concerned with how this looks and how this sort of stuff hits ESPN, then gets momentum. Always sharks in the water.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Possibly if it can be proven it was someone with a duty not to disclose.
But, what if it was a leak by the woman herself or an attorney representing her? They might not be under a duty. An attorney might have been trying to negotiate a settlement with KUAD, for all we know (read: “blackmail”). The disclosure could have been retaliation. Vick might have told someone, who dug into it.
-
@mayjay they couldn’t reach the woman and dad said talk to attorney. They knew all this beforehand.
-
@KUSTEVE said:
3- Not ready to run off CB for having a bong in his dorm. Don’t tell anyone, but I had a bong at Templin Hall.
Below is one of the many bongs I had in college. I still have them all to this day.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t remember how the Star said they got it, but leaking papers is not always done with a signed “here ya go”.
-
@mayjay possibly they were just chasing every rabbit down every hole trying to break which Ku player is involved in the rape incident (if any) and just turned this stone over by chance.
-
" I read where fans are worried Self will get sick of this
And go elsewhere. Who knows."This stuff goes on everywhere. I think what Bill cares about most is that the KU administration does the right thing. If not, then you have a Baylor situation… then Bill is gone.
-
There is a question about whether or not these stories all point to the same girl. Could be.
Another angle points to someone yet to be mentioned. A “fan” who provides players with girls, drugs, whatever they want. These “fans” are at every university all the time.
-
@drgnslayr I don’t think they’d have any problem getting girls. A KU Jayhawk is a man of distinction and talent. The ladies can’t resist.
-
Just like the guys wouldn’t have a problem getting weed anywhere.
This is largely a convenience thing. The girls are “vetted.”
Even pro athletes use these guys.
-
Sounds like Bragg’s court date has been moved to march 3rd. Does that mean he is done til after that date?
-
Hey, I have some questions about this pot topic…
Someone posted a pix of the US showing states where pot is legal, as I knew someone would. Then it was mentioned that pot is still mostly illegal because of 1 guy in the 1920’s who got it outlawed because he saw it as a business threat? But wait, doesnt that ignore approximately 50 yrs of recurring intellectual and political debate about the legalization of marijuana? And how many times has it been voted down across the nation? So, do all these voters voting it either legal OR illegal actually know about that guy in the '20s?
I would also ask if someone has actually reviewed scientific research on THC/cannabis? What do we actually know now, compared to back in the '20s, or even the '60s?
Someone wanted to tout facts. So why is it a widespread fact that if you get hurt on the job and you go for medical evaluation, most employers require a urine drug test? So could it be TRUE that pot’s well-known cognitive, emotional, and physical performance effects on the majority of humans studied, has caused widespread drug testing to look for this medical/legal culpability in people hurt on the job? So this well-established norm in WorkersComp cases must be predicated on something thats already been proven…hmm? Because those attorneys would debunk such culpability in a hurry if it wasnt based on an already proven, established fact, right?
Hey, my only real question is why cant a 6’10 245# McDAA even pretend to imitate the stats put up by another 6’10 245# kid (Lucas), who wasnt even ranked in the Top100? Does “paraphernalia” and Bragg’s performance bust make anyone else who roots for the kid & KU to stop and say “hmm?” But hey, can I use the argument about where ther’s smoke, there’s fire? So where there’s paraphernalia, there was usage? Or does the smoke/fire argument only apply to John Calipari?
-
@drgnslayr Not just the athletes! I remember we Liberal Arts students in the Honors Program with bifocals had to fight the girls off!
-
@ralster said:
So why is it a widespread fact that if you get hurt on the job and you go for medical evaluation, most employers require a urine drug test?
It is actually not a drug test to determine issues associated with the injury. It is a drug test designed to prove that the employee was violating a rule of employment, giving an emplyer grounds for discharge for cause.
-
Where employees operate equipment (cars, trucks, forklifts… etc etc) it should be in their employers’ rights to require drug testing because of the connection to impairment and the risk to follow.
But this has gone far beyond the risks associated with operating equipment. Corporations now use it as one more leverage tool against employees… giving them an easier way to fire employees and/or control them.
Concerning Carlton… if he is regularly consuming pot it is hard to believe his game has gone unaffected by doing so. This is all an assumption that he is a regular user… If he is, most likely his game has suffered to some degree. We are talking about physical, mental and emotional levels in relationship to his performance. He may have lost some motivation to improve and put in extra work to do so. He may run a bit slower, lost a bit of hand/eye coordination, too. He may be more likely to forget key strategies given to him by his coaches.
I’m not going to be the one that POINTS A FINGER at Carlton on this. It is unfair without knowing the facts of this case.
I don’t believe he will be held off the hardwoods because of the misdemeanor paraphernalia charge. I believe he is being held out until drug testing is complete. If I am correct, and if he has now been tested, we will probably know the results by next Monday.
If he is guilty, it doesn’t necessarily mean Carlton will be cut from the team. Good chance that the determination of his staying or going will be all on him. Will he offer to enter a drug rehab class? If his problem is deemed more severe… will he offer to enter a drug rehab program… most likely requiring him to reside within the program?
I’m curious how this all plays out. How willing is Bill to take a chance on Carlton moving forward? Bill has a good heart and he tends to want to use the game of basketball to help young players wherever possible. Kicking Carlton off the team and ruining his reputation is not the first thing Bill will want to do, but most of it will depend on Carlton. Does he feel remorseful? Does he want to stop his habits? Bill can’t and won’t stick out his own neck too far, and why should he?
-
Now someone also posted that pot has “dozens of medicinal uses”…really? Because I have never seen a list of medicinal uses that stretches past “24”, to qualify the statement regarding dozen(s). Boy, howdy, I’ve heard of about half a dozen actual uses. Never learned of any such list at the Univ.ofKS School of Medicine, who pride themselves on teaching us to follow evidence-based, fact-based practice guidelines. So, this of course begets another question, if there are purportedly all these great benefits to pot, WHY then do we not have BigPharma all over this, and purifying and synthesizing various offshoot cousin compounds that truly enhance those “medicinal uses” in a more potent manner? And why would we thus cling to the archane form of ingestion of smoking it? Please explain? Ever heard of K2? Its recreational creation, not medicinal.
But if you truly want to see more states legalize pot so people can smoke it (because the people that could actually use it medicinally for those few uses is a very small fraction of the general population)–> here’s what you do, especially during these times of absolutely wrecked state budgets due to escalating social burdens & strains: You point to the states where it is legalized, and point to the hundreds of millions of $ in tax revenues generated, & tell the voting public just how much better schools and roads & infrastructure could be if we had that kind of big money!
I heard Colo raked in over $600million from taxes. I’m sure you could sway enough of the gullible American public to get pot legalized in your state SOON! Ive heard many states are in dire straits from a budget standpoint…I think most of the nation will go “flourescent green” on that usa map. Forget the medicinal uses crap & focus on the $. Havent we learned what makes this nation run?
-
I fought girls off every second I was in college. At least… I did in my dreams.
-
@ralster alright, i see you. nice under handed dig at what I was saying. Its cool. But I gotta reply back.
Heres an excerpt from this article I encourage you to read it and do some fact checking, homework.
"During the same period, Du Pont was developing cellophane, nylon, and dacron from from fossil fuels. Du Pont held the patents on many synthetics and became a leader in the development of paint, rayon, synthetic rubber, plastics, chemicals, photographic film, insecticides and agricultural chemicals.
From the Du Pont 1937 Annual Report we find a clue to what started to happen next: “The revenue raising power of government may be converted into an instrument for forcing acceptance of sudden new ideas of industrial and social reoganization”.
Ok, enter William Randolph Hearst. Hearst’s company was a major consumer of the cheap tree-pulp paper that had replaced hemp paper in the late 19th century. The Hearst Corporation was also a major logging company, and produced Du Pont’s chemical-drenched tree pulp paper, which yellowed and fell apart after a short time. Fueled by the advertising sold to the petrochemical industries, Hearst Newspapers were also known for their sensationalist stories. Hearst despised poor people, black people, chinese, hindus, and all other minorities. Most of all he hated Mexicans. Pancho Villa’s cannabis-smoking troops had reclaimed some 800,000 acres of prime timberland from Hearst in the name of the mexican peasants. And all of the low-quality paper the company planned to make by deforesting it’s vast timber holdings were in danger of being replaced by low-cost, high quality paper made from hemp."
I would also like to stress that I am not condoning the use of recreational marijuana for athletic sports, for the work place, for anything that requires an adult to be well, an adult. BUT, I dont think recreational use should be demonized the way you are going about it. Its taboo and illegal for absolutely one reason and I provided that link for you above.
-
@HighEliteMajor true that man. always sharks in the water
-
@mayjay Then why wouldnt such a rule by an employer get totally shot down by an attorney, if it wasnt based in some fact about pot’s effects on human performance, judgement, reaction time? Is that widespread practice based on a vacuum of fact? Because the practice of requiring a UA would have surely disappeared, due to all the lost court cases, right? But I havent seen much change in 20+yrs. But of course, mine is only an anecdotal observation, but nonetheless, what I’m reporting on here is indeed widespread practice currently…
-
@Lulufulu But for the sake of the voting public (the ones who’ll turn that map near-fully green), I would make a gentleman’s bet that most of the public has NO clue about that paper from hemp thing. They arent voting the way they do based on that old situation that is now older than most living people.
You can sway just enough of the swing voters to legalize it by selling the hard fact of BIG $ revenue, always relevant, and relevant right now.
-
“WHY then do we not have BigPharma all over this, and purifying and synthesizing various offshoot cousin compounds that truly enhance those “medicinal uses” in a more potent manner?”
Pharma isn’t about healing or helping people. Pharma is 100% about making profit. I’m not just offering my thoughts on this… all of pharma operates as corporations and through corporate law. It is actually REQUIRED by pharma to be only about profits because it is written in their responsibilities in their corporate charters and bylaws. By their own laws, pertaining to their formation and existence, they are required to seek out profit returns for their stockholders.
In order for pharma to have a drug qualified for sale it must pass through insane amounts of testing and red tape… most of it having LITTLE to do with possible effectiveness or adverse effects. Govt approvals today (I believe) typically cost from $600 million to over $1 billion. Even though pharma complains about the high costs, they then are not only able to monopolize on their medications, they are also able to keep smaller companies out of their business because of the costs.
Pot research has gone on for decades. But none of it qualifies as research by our govt because they intentionally create research scenarios requiring outrageous costs in order that they can maintain their total control and dominance. And… as many think… govt and pharma are ONE! Just research what industry spends the most on lobbying Washington… that would be the AMA and related medical industries, by a long shot! They OWN DC!
Pot and THC have been around forever, and in the general sense, belong as common property with well-noted use for many health-related reasons, making them “obvious” and restricting patent claims. I believe this has already been tested to some degree in patent court.
What I am expecting… perhaps even with President Trump… is the possibility that Trump maintains his promise to be the “law and order” president, translating into “all federal laws will be upheld.” So expect feds to come into all of these pot states and start busting it all up.
Stage two was partially discussed this morning when Trump met with pharma execs. He stated his desire to killing up to 80% of the regulations surrounding pharma. If so, he creates the pathway for pharma to legalize medicinal pot in the same vein as other drugs. So pharma will end up in complete control of weed and THC. Pharma will setup some bogus trials and our govt will decide weed/THC/cannabinoids suddenly have miraculous healing qualities!
In order for pharma to make weed into one of their drugs for selling, they will first make sure they completely “f-up” their new baby. Pharma is based on synthesizing elements and compounds. This is where most “side effects” come from. Drugs are not typically most effective when they are isolated. These elements and compounds need to be with their natural host compounds in order to buffer from many side effects. They can also help stimulate results in some cases, too.
By the way, pharma will patent some of their synthetic versions of THC. This is something they can protect. “Synth pot” is the future for these giants. For all of those who have positive experiences with pot, don’t expect synth pot to be anything as positive.
Here is the kicker… pharma doesn’t want drugs to NOT have side effects! Most patients who are prescribed a drug for ongoing use end up having to take several other drugs to battle the side effects. Pharma does what other for-profit corporations do… they build in functional obsolescence. The formula for big business is NEVER to sell you a product just ONCE!
-
Note for readers: No beef with @Lulufulu or @mayjay ,they contribute a great deal here, always thought provoking, and great reads. Lulufulu just made me think from several angles at once…
To explain my stance, specifically on the “medicinal”, I think it mostly reflects how we were taught to think (at dear old KU), regarding medical practice with patients. One isnt going to go out in the world and be some sort of maverick or therapeutic trailblazer. You dont guinea pig with patients. If you have novel research ideas, you work in medical research to prove your ideas.
So, until there’s some true paradigm-shift with a vast majority-approved & proven way to change what you give to patients, you’ll see practitioners adhere to the standard-of-care, which loosely defined is: what would 19 out of 20 docs do in a given situation? Which also implies, “beware” of that 1/20 guy. And, with your hard-earned license, there is always lurking the chance for scrutiny by the State Board of Healing Arts, which demands adherence to that standard of care for a given symptom. And the KSBHA is a very conservative governing body, as are most.
So, as always, agree or disagree with mine or anyone’s idea, people make up your own minds. We come to discuss & foster thought/ask questions. Any sarcasm is purely contextual, relative, and in that moment.
Apologies for the verbosity!
-
@ralster I was only commenting on the routine drug use tests where unrelated to an injury, but where employers just try to fog it all up. No opinion on pot’s effects. I have seen at least two users close to me who I have long suspected were seriously damaged by heavy pot use in motivation, problem solving skills, and overall judgment. I don’t have any issues with your position.
I believe, however, the liquor industry’s product harms its victims far beyond anything pot has done. Follow the money–to the ABC stores and suppliers for my suspect of who bankrolls the true antilegalization effort.
-
@mayjay You are
% accurate abt the use & abuse of 
. Hands down the most abused & dangerously available drug on the 
planet. It’s so much about the 
money that the business is even owned & operated by the govt in many states. Pot will be as well sooner or later. All in the auspices of revenue enhancement… Yeah right…
-
You guys have some good points on the pot argument. I personally am split on the matter I think the revenue would do good things. But I also have seen first hand that it kills brain cells. One other big issue is that I read about last year is the number motor vehicle accidents involving weed has increased in Colorado and Washington bye nearly 50%. They have no way to tell how much is too much like the .008 for alcohol and it is causing fatal accidents, not saying that we don’t have the same issue with drunks.
-
@kjayhawks Accidents due to weed = fender benders in the taco bell drive through
-
Gee,you should have seen us engineers…
-
@DanR lmao that was good man.
