The great C-5 debate
Well, people think Diallo needs to see the floor more, more minutes, less Lucas, Less Traylor, ya that would be great, I would love to see him too, BUT the stats, just don’t bear it out, he will see more time, IF he develops, and don’t come at me with well you have to play more to develop, maybe true to a point, but also comes with showing development in practice. Stats pretty well speak for themselves, at THIS POINT Bragg and Diallo are right about where they need to be in the rotation. You can try and twist this around anyway you want, bottom line it is what it is, the proof is right there in black and white. Lets do comparison: OK, total minutes for the season,Lucas 175-- Diallo 89, so lets just equate Diallo’s stats x 2, for comparative reasons that would even it out ok? so, 1st: Off Reb Lucas has- -21-- Cheick has 4 equals out to- -8, Def Reb Lucas has- - 41-- Cheick has 22 equals out to 44 Total Reb Lucas has - -62- -Cheick has 26 equals out to- -52 Asst Lucas has 10- -Cheick has 1- -equals out to - -2 To’s Lucas has- -12- -Cheick has 8 equals out to- - 16 Steals Lucas has- -5- -Cheick has 2 equals out to- -4 Blk Lucas has- -3 - -Cheick has 8 equals out to- -16 ,now in Total Reb per game avg Lucas is - - 4.8- - Cheick is 2.6 equals out to 5.2 So, getting the same amount of playing time per say, Lucas is better at or even at ALL but better then most then Cheick equates out to other then blocks so, where is the advantage? More proof - - OK, fg% Lucas 60.5- -Diallo- -54.3 Ft% is a wash Lucas 67.9%–Diallo- -68.8 advantage? as far as getting fould Lucas is getting to the line 19-28 so far- - Cheick is currently at 11-16, equate that out- -22-32 advantage? Stats don’t lie, where is the huge advantage to playing Cheick over Lucas, It doesn’t add up, evidence is right there. If I were to bet, fouls per minute of playing time, Cheick wins THAT hands down. Until Cheick can prove that he can defend without leaving his feet at the 1st little fake or doesn’t even have tto be that, just not thinking he will block EVERYTHING, when in reality he has blocked close to nothing, until he can learn how to defend, give weak side help, unstead of being beat then ya he is where exactly he needs to be, giving spot backup, he is a defensive LIABILITY at this time, Offensive rebounds are not there turnovers way to high, fouls way to high so you can twist this in any direction you want, we all know if you want to see playing time, you have to be able to defend, and that’s not happening, not at this point anyways. As far as Bragg he has played 7 less minutes on the year then Lucas, not as good of Rebounder as Lucas, 4.8 to 2.8 Ft% 67.9 to 50% Fg% 60.5 to 57…4% Huge time diff in Def Rb Lucas 41- -Bragg 24 Blks even Bragg more To’s 16-12 Bragg 1 more asst- - So where is the advantage to play Bragg over Lucas? now athletism? ya it’s spelt wrong and? hell ya, Diallo, Bragg much much more athletic, but it is going to just take time, but as far as having the better player, right now these just don’t show that. Lucas and Mickelson about the same no huge difference there either, so no problem either way with who over who there, Mickelson 22 less minutes then Lucas for the season that equals out to 1 half of 1 ballgame less for the season Lucas 175 minutes, Mickelson 153 minutes Reb’s would be close, real close, Mickelson better shot blkr, more mobile, Lucas pretty big difference in fg% 60.5- - Mickelson 52.6 Reb per game right now Lucas 4.8 Mickelson 2.9 sooo, everyone has their opinion, and this is mine like it fine, not like it fine, how you arguing against the stats of the game? ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Well I guess Cheick and Diallo need more practice?
@DoubleDD good place to start
Maybe so but you have to play potential or you can forget about recruiting top talent.
@DoubleDD Is the one and done’s REALLY all that vital? I mean yes it’s nice, but some don’t pan out, look how skal at Kentucky is doing, a lot of the one and done’s aren’t REALLY that interested in having to play college ball anyways, how serious are they about playing college ball? do they or are they really that INVESTED in the school? it’s just a lay over for a lot of them, something at the current time they HAVE to do, if they had their choice they wouldn’t be here in the 1st place. which in turn makes one wonder how serious they are about committing 100% for the year they are here. We have done pretty good with3 and 4 year players in the past, and would probably continue to do so.We aren’t winning a lot of the top recruits at the present right now anyways, Mario was not a 1 and done, the Morris twins were not, T-Rob was not Darnell was not, to name just a few, Mark Turgeon was not but yet played a vital part on a very good team if memory serves me correctly, Sometimes I feel with 3 and 4 year players they form a tighter bond, a closer connection, cause they are together longer, we as fans could agrue/debate this topic till the cows come home, and I don’t believe either side will change their minds on how it should be done, but I know one thing we can agree on, and that’s our love for the Jayhawks, always a winner ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Frozen rope outta da park!!
Think of a pianist with great hands and perfect pitch, but who just started playing and can only read some of the notes.
Do you put them in the New York Philharmonic and expect them to carry the orchestra 2/3s of the performance, while learning on the job?
DanR last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 Funny you should mention music, JB. Every time someone says Diallo and Bragg need game experience to learn how to play better, I think of musicians and how much behind the scenes effort and practice takes place before they get on stage. If you know what you’re doing before you get up there, there’s no stage fright.
C5=first, second, third chair in an orchestra. You might have a brilliant young violinist, who everyone agrees is the most naturally gifted, but the player hasn’t learned her part of the symphony piece. Do you let her try to nail it during a live performance or wait until she proves it in rehearsal?
LOL. I don’t know what kind of band Bill Self’s team would equate to, but I don’t think he’d be comfortable directing a Jazz Quintet doing a bunch of improvising.
ParisHawk last edited by
This is a great debate, but if I had my druthers we would talk a bit more about individuals.
In one corner we have C5. In the other corner we have C3 = F2+M1 (the two freshmen + Mickelson). What about C4?
I see Mickelson who bothers on D, threatens on O and runs in T (transition).
I see Lucas who has improved (in D and O, not T), and Traylor who hasn’t.
How about just C4? Reduce Traylor’s minutes and increase everybody but Lucas.
I’m for Mickelson getting lots more minutes, except when he fouls up like last game.
@ParisHawk Agree for sure, sounds good I just believe for this year anyways I just don’t think we are going to see great separation,Coach Self is starting to state as much and play more of a situational 5 spot. Each Player brings that something to the table. You will definitely will not get me to say that Diallo, and Bragg are not the more athletic, it oozes out of them, but one more time and it’s been stated till run into the ground,Cheick is raw, and thanks to the NCAA that just put him futher behind the others. Both need a year under Hody for strength and some bulk, Like you say when we need a bigger man Landon is definitely, mix it up with anyone, hold ground better, less agile by far, better rebounder which I showed, Mickelson, Bragg Diallo definetly more agile Bragg more offensive minded then Lucas, Diallo can be, will be better rim protector in time, Mickelson good rim protector, not great but sufficant, bottom line for Diallo, is learning to stay on your feet, weak side help, but brings tons of energy. Mickelson has to stay out of foul trouble. It’s just as much as people or some in here hate the idea, it’s going to continue for this year I believe, I feel the way it is right now, Mickelson continues to start, unless like going against bulk, opposition that can back you down, Lucas follow up, then Bragg/Diallo. I love Jamari, he is so dedicated, loves KU, great hustle,energy but just so limited on the offensive end teams sag off, not closely guarded. Better rebounder really good shot blocker 2nd on team in blocks Mickelson 19, Traylor 13 but like I said I think would be better limiting his minutes to spot fill. This whole situation has it’s good points, bad points and some just a mess, but it is what it is for THIS YEAR. Good because we can throw so many bodies into the C-5 and let each one contribute in their own way under certain conditions I do believe Cheick will get ther, BUT I also believe he will be back, read where his stock has dropped considerably, but a lot of this freshman classs they are saying is being proven medicore and will open up the draft more for upper classman, which I would assume Wayne, read that this morning, we shall see. Isn’t it great though we all have that passion, and caring for this KU team? seems like we all live and die for our hawks, and that’s a good thing. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
@DoubleDD the thing about recruiting, so many on here don’t want OAD’s or kids that demand playing time. So which is it?
wrwlumpy last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 The philharmonic puts him in the D- League for six years.
@Crimsonorblue22 the bigger thing is about the players. Who are they in a position to DEMAND anything? you come to College, you EARN it, work for it, just like anyone else, that’s part of the problem, so many of these kids think they just automatically deserve to just come on campus and take over without having to earn that spot. people or a lot of people get all caught up in the hype of these kids, and what they did in high school. Problem is that a lot of them can dominate in high school, their talent outshines a lot of high school kids, Does that mean they should just walk in and take over be given that starting star role with out earning it, over some one who has put his life in to get where he is at today? HUGE difference between High School ball and Major College ball, a lot of these quote unquote studs come to college and struggle, they find out that those moves they made in high School they try to do in college and find out real quick that doesn’t work, they find out there is a lot of players in College that’s just as good as they are, that have a lot of moves they got, that’s where the practice, growing, developing MORE comes into play, College players run as fast, jump as high, block as well, score as easily, it takes work and dedication, but yet a lot of these feel they should just automatically get to start without proving nothing at the collegiate level, haven’t played 1 minute but yet demand playing time. You see where demanding, and arguing got Greene with Coach Self didn’t ya? You prove yourself. Potential, is one thing Evidence is another. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
JayHawkFanToo last edited by
The Missouri football team called…they said they can demand anything they want including the School President’s job…and get it…different times…
A result of players leaving early for the pros is that the best players in college are typically not juniors and seniors.
For example, let’s glance back at Perry Ellis’ high school class to see who is still in college:
- Nerlens Noel - NBA
- Shabazz Muhammed - NBA
- Isaiah Austin - health issues (retired)
- Kaleb Tarczewski - Arizona
- Kyle Anderson - NBA
- Steven Adams - NBA
- Anthony Bennett - NBA
- Cameron Ridley - Texas
- Grant Jerrett - D-League
- Marcus Smart - NBA
That’s the top 10, and only 2 are still in college.
- Gary Harris - NBA
- Rasheed Sulaimon - Maryland
- Alex Poythress - Kentucky
- Dajuan Coleman - Syracuse
- Archie Goodwin - NBA
- Brandon Ashley - Arizona
- Sam Dekker - NBA
- Glenn Robinson - NBA
- Danuel House - Texas A&M
- Rodney Purvis - UConn
Six of these guys stuck around. So that’s 8 of the top 20.
- Ricardo Ledo - D-League
- Marcus Paige - North Carolina
- Kris Dunn - Providence
- Yogi Ferrell - Indiana
- Amile Jefferson - Duke
- Tony Parker - UCLA
- Mitch McGary - NBA
- Devonta Pollard - Houston
- TJ Warren - NBA
- Shaquille Cleare - Maryland
Seven more. That’s 15.
- Shaq Goodwin - Memphis
- Omar Calhoun - UConn
- Robert Carter - Maryland
- Brice Johnson - North Carolina
- Perry Ellis - Kansas
- Rico Gaithers - Baylor
- Jerami Grant - NBA
- Josh Scott - Colorado
- Adam Woodbury - Iowa
- Willie Cauley-Stein - NBA
Out of the 40 best players from Perry’s class, 17 have left college, including 12 of the top 20 and 8 of the best 10. Of the remaining 23, Tarczewski, Ridley, Poythress, Ashley, Paige, Jefferson and Johnson have all battled injuries either this year or throughout their careers. Of the other 16, House, Purvis, Sulaimon, Pollard and Carter have all transferred for one reason or another.
Simply put, often the freshmen expect to play because they are flat out better than the upperclassmen that remain.
@JayHawkFanToo LMAO, ya for sure, but that’s Missery U. lol I hear ya. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@justanotherfan no Hield?
@justanotherfan I am a firm believer in that cream will ultimately rise to the top
Hield ranked just outside the top 100. In almost every class, there are a couple of guys ranking lower that rocket to the top of their class. Hield is certainly one of those guys, along with Nik Stauskas, who was ranked 76 but left Michigan after his sophomore year for the NBA. Both Hield and Stauskas have something in common, though - both were born outside the US (Hield in Haiti, Stauskas in Canada). There is a lot of potential with foreign born players that they may not be properly ranked, particularly if they don’t play much HS ball in the US. I believe that both Hield and Stauskas could have (and would have been) top 40 players had they played in the US from an early age.
It’s not really about opinion. There’s not a KU fan in here to a person that wouldn’t rather have these kids stay in school for 4 years. Yet what are you going to do? Tell new recruits you come to KU you have to stay four years?
The real problem is the fans. I’m starting to get this feeling some KU fans don’t won’t Bragg and Diallo to play at all this year. Making it sound like Bragg and Diallo just picked up a ball just yesterday, or something. That they not even close to being ready to play at KU. When in reality they just want these kids back for next year. Sadly it will be these same friends that can’t understand why KU isn’t getting the same recruits as UK"s and Duke.
@Crimsonorblue22 is correct when she says, “so which one is it”? Do we sell our souls for the OAD or do we try to pick through the left overs and piece together greatness. We can put to rest the concept that you can’t win with young talent. It’s been done and will be done again.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
@justanotherfan check this list out. I also looked up how many nba players went more than 2 years, you might be surprised.
I guess what I’m trying to say, look at the Buddy Hields and Denzel valentines.
There are lots of four year players in the NBA, obviously. But look around the college landscape. Most 4 year players aren’t on that level.
More often than not, when it comes to stars, you won’t see many 4 year players on that list. Let’s check the last 5 years of All NBA teams (first, second and third teams). These are the best 15 players in the league for that year:
0 years of college - Lebron James, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Amar’e Stoudemire, Manu Ginobili
1 year of college - Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Zach Randolph
2 years of college - Dwyane Wade (at Marquette three years, but ineligible as a freshman). , Russell Westbrook, LaMarcus Aldridge, Chris Paul
3 years of college - Al Horford
0 - James, Howard, Bryant, Andrew Bynum, Parker, Nowitzki, Tyson Chandler
1 Year of college - Durant, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony
2 Years of college - Paul, Blake Griffin, Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, Wade
0 - James, Bryant, Marc Gasol, Parker, Howard
1 - Durant, Anthony
2 - Paul, Griffin, Westbrook, Paul George, Wade, Harden
4 - Tim Duncan, David Lee
0 - James, Howard, Parker, Al Jefferson, Goran Dragic
1 - Durant, Love
2 - Harden, Paul, Griffin, George, Aldridge
3 - Joakim Noah, Stephen Curry, Damian Lillard (redshirt junior due to injury)
0 - James, M. Gasol, P. Gasol
1 - Anthony Davis, DeMarcus Cousins, DeAndre Jordan, Kyrie Irving
2 - Harden, Westbrook, Paul, Griffin, Aldridge
3 - Klay Thompson, Curry
4 - Duncan
So we can take out the foreign players - Nowitzki, the Gasol’s, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Goran Dragic - they took up 11 of the 75 spots. That leaves 64 spots.
Of those 64, the breakdown is as follows:
No college - 16
One Year - 14
Two Years - 25
Three Years - 6
Four Years - 3
That is pretty telling. If you’re playing in college for three years or more these days, the likelihood that you will become an NBA star is pretty low. The chance of Hield or Valentine or Wiltjer being a star at the next level is low. For a guy like Melo Trimble, or Ben Simmons, the chances are actually pretty good, particularly since you would need to lump the No college and 1 year guys together due to the rule change.
Going back further, here are the four year All-NBA guys since 2000, along with the year they entered the NBA:
- David Robinson - 1987
- Tim Duncan - 1997
- Gary Payton - 1990
- Grant Hill - 1994
- Karl Malone - 1985
- Alonzo Mourning - 1992
- Ben Wallace - 1996
- Steve Nash - 1996
- Sam Cassell - 1993
- Brandon Roy - 2006
- David Lee - 2005
Check that out. Not a single four year player drafted after 2006 was named All-NBA. That’s very telling. Since the start of early entry straight from HS, the best players leave college every year. Kevin Garnett debuted in the NBA in 1995. Only five players above left college after that. Now that we are in the OAD era, who are the best players. The evidence above suggests it is probably those freshmen and sophomores.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@justanotherfan I’m not saying all stars, and I’m not trying to argue, just some players have made a pretty good living and they have gone to more than 1 year of college. Trey Burke, frank kiminsky just to name a few. Could put a few Jayhawks on that list. Some bettered their rankings too.
Bwag last edited by
Mickelson good rim protector, not great but sufficant
Guess I don’t undersand this. Later you point out that HM has 19 blocks in limited pt versus Traylors 13 in highest pt.