HEM'S ARTICLE GETS A RESPONSE FROM TOM KEEGAN.
wrwlumpy last edited by wrwlumpy
I check out the KU SPORTS web site just like all of the other basketball sites. I noticed that many of the crowd that stayed there have been checking out our site and conversing about our blogs. One in particular, HEM’s MICRO AND MACRO has been getting big play from the other site that Keegan is a part of. I congratulate HEM for his excellent method of playing the Devil’s Advocate and being so thought provoking and raising our site to the point that at least the people and reporters who cover KU Basketball have to acknowledge that we as fans exist. That being said, Tom has raised a “Middle Finger” to HEM and the Gang of Five in this morning’s article on the KU Sports Basketball web site.
REHawk last edited by
@wrwlumpy Tom could probably meet a lot of deadlines, while upgrading his “style,” by keeping his good eye on this site.
wissoxfan83 last edited by
I’m a literalist, so I’m looking at the other site for references about us here. Didn’t see anything in the article you linked. Isn’t there a general, (i.e. not just us here) feeling that Self isn’t doing things right by this team? If you could provide other places where you’ve seen us mentioned I’d appreciate that too!
wrwlumpy last edited by wrwlumpy
I’ve been looking for it in the comment section between the 23rd and Monday. The actual title of Macro and Micro were used in the thread. I’ll keep looking.
Bill Self is not paid to win games. That is a misconception.
You don’t come to Kansas to just win games.
You come to Kansas to win championships.
You can win games at K-State, or Texas Tech, or Nebraska, or Iowa, or St. Louis, or Colorado, or LSU, or Tennessee, or New Mexico, or Arizona State or probably 300 something other D1 schools.
But if you are at Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA, Indiana, Arizona or a handful of other schools, your job is to win championships. With an S on the end. KU fans assume 20 wins (probably more like 25, honestly). You won’t get your contract renewed at Kansas just because you beat UC-Irvine and Holy Cross. You better do something come March.
Coaches are paid to win games. Basketball coaches at KU are paid to win championships.
@wissoxfan83 Also, I know that many on our site are also on the other using their real names and taking the surveys. That’s fine with me and I will fake my answers quickly to read which ever article I want to. I’ll keep looking for the direct Micro, Macro comment, but my main point is that apparently, the things we write back and forth are being read by people surrounding the Men’s Basketball program. Self was just saying, “I don’t care what @wrwlumpy or others write about me, I’m going to run this program my way.” Which as we all know means that our disagreement will stay as only (Our Disagreements).
@justanotherfan You must be glad that Roy left, since he was unable to do that for Kansas.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
@wrwlumpy et al,
I’m not sure I see what you see, but on the chance you are right, I want to take a moment to speak in favor of @HighEliteMajor. Some years back I put more elbow grease into what I wrote on basketball. I tried to raise board rats’ awareness of how important the KU Legacy was and what an extraordinary opportunity technology had presented us to become a little “d” democratic Greek chorus of advocacy, analysis and opining. I did what I thought was my duty to The Legacy for many years, until I saw the level of discourse rise significantly in part apparently from being challenged to do so. To my considerable satisfaction, many board rats rose to the challenge and first met and then exceeded what I was bringing. I used to be the only one that went long, short and in between… Now I can find anyone of these lengths practically any day here now.
In time my voice could return to the choir and not be missed. It was lucky for shortly after the rise in discourse I took sick and lost something off my fastball. But well before I lost my pop, I recognized @HighEliteMajor was striving for the same higher level of discourse I was and that our disagreements were not only a price of that increase, but a necessary and desirable and fun ingredient of it. I also realized I was passing the baton to someone that could take it farther than I had. And he has already brought more to the discourse than I have. And some are already ascending and getting ready to take the baton from him, when he has had enough. So: if anyone outside this forum is taking a shot at him from outside this forum, they are indirectly taking a shot at me and us, too, and they ought to man up and come in this forum and do it on this turf. Pro journos are not only welcome here, they are treated with admiration, enthusiasm, and curtesy, even when being flatly disagreed with (note: something I suspect many pro journos are not used to in real time). For what it’s worth, I bear only good will to other KU basketball fora and local pro journos. I welcome anyone that can bring some additional elevation to the discourse here, as @HighEliteMajor always does. We are a small Greek chorus, of consequence mostly only to us. But we are one, whether others wish it or not. If others wish to discuss beyond our forum what points of view and issues we traverse, that is up to them. I wish they would join us, for they could enrich our discourse, but we have neither a recruiting budget, nor a parent corporation, nor a petroshoeco contract. We just have @approxinfinity 's generosity of web site and spirit. Amazingly, I have grown to view its relative simplicity as elegance, and it’s contributors as remarkably informative observers and commentators. I learn more and get more of what I want to know about KU basketball here than anywhere else. But I am old and hardly representative of any cohort worth tracking now. All of which is my usually long winded way of saying: yo, @HighEliteMajor, keep transitioning. Rock Chalk!
@jaybate-1.0 I remember reading that post from @HighEliteMajor, too. It seems as if he (kusports writer)'s trying to score some ‘like’ points from the coach. This forum does have a lot of good discussions. As far as pro journos, you want someone like Newell. I remember reading blogs from him, (used to be kusports writer). His opinions are strong and valid, most of the time. He speaks from his mind. I kind of miss his blogs after a while.
JhawkAlum last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 I remember you battling other posters on the other site and famously saying “next” at the end of it.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
And this is why resolving apparent recruiting asymmetry appears paramount.
If Self were paid to win rings, he would have to sign his share of the draft choice PGs and 5s, since those are so crucial to winning rings.
Thus, recruiting asymmetry, if unresolved, increasingly appears a de facto tactic for regime change.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
It is interesting, the timing of Keegan’s column. It’s an excellent discussion. Tom just has a wildly incorrect premise – that the “light coming on” is not impacted by the minutes (or game experience) a player gets. I’m quite sure Self didn’t tell him that. But I think Keegan is correct in that Self is so secure in his position he basically can do whatever he wants. That’s true of 5-7 coaches in the country, so I’m not sure why that’s news. I think the news is exactly what @wrwlumpy said – Keegan is arguing that Self’s approach is correct. And he wants everyone to know he agrees with coach Self. That’s all good. He likes to agree with Self. I like to agree with Self – but writing about “agreements” isn’t that interesting sometimes. And this is all very fluid, though. Game to game. Post-game press conference to post-game press conference.
@jaybate-1.0 Thank you for the kind comments. If you’ve lost something off your fastball, it might be comparable to Nolan Ryan moving into his 40s – still a knee buckling curve, and few no-hitters left in the arm. I ALWAYS enjoy the privilege of our discussions.
@JhawkAlum – yea, it was when someone had the temerity to post a response after the “Next!” at the end that we were all in trouble. Sometimes I let out and audible, “uh-oh – you shouldn’t have done that.”
@justanotherfan And good God, did you just post the post to end all posts? No truer words have been spoken.
I wasn’t nearly as sad that Roy left as most. I firmly believe that he never would have won a championship at KU because he never would commit to competing directly with UNC for recruits. That refusal to go toe to toe with UNC handicapped KU in a way that probably would have prevented us from ever winning a title under Roy.
It is critical that we land a big time PG. The problem is that Self wants his PG’s to fulfill a certain role, rather than letting them do their thing - remember his clashes with Tyshawn because Tyshawn was a guy that just needed to be able to go play ball. You have to let the elite PG’s play to their strengths and build around that, rather than stuffing them into your system.
Thank you for the kind words.
As I have said before - this is Kansas. Things are different here when it comes to basketball.
Naismith. Wilt. Phog Allen. 2nd most wins in D1 history. National titles under 3 different coaches (only Kentucky and North Carolina can say the same). The Rock Chalk chant. All of that makes KU different from anywhere else. Heck, from everywhere else. It’s different when you have KANSAS on your jersey. The pressure is different. The expectation is different. That’s why we all post on this board. Do you really think a basketball fan at Oregon would break off from the main site and create an entire new site to post like @approxinfinity did? And bring a few hundred friends along for the ride.
Again, this is KANSAS. Let’s not pretend its the same. It’s Kansas. We Rock. We Chalk.
Agree that this site tends to have deeper and better analysis than KU Sports, but I l did like the Keegan article and it addressed the issue we all have in mind about playing time for the young guys.
Agree that on-the court learning (playing time) is the best and maybe the only way to improve quickly,
However, our young post players are a long way from being major contributors, even with more minutes, this year. They will make some impact, but in a Cole-type way vs UNC (one game).
Jo-Jo spoiled us into thinking that everyone could come into the program and make an immediate contribution. He was simply bigger, stronger, smarter and had better footwork than any big man in recent KU history. He was so very exceptional that we think all the guys are OAD and ready for major minutes and will improve that fast.
Lastly, winning championships in a tourney like March Madness is a crap shoot. You have to have all your players healthy and available to play, you have to peak at just the right time, you have to have the right match-ups along the way and you have to get lucky. That does not happen very often. We can and should do better, but it really has to be the perfect storm.
Look at UK last year who had by far the most dominant team in NCAA recent history - four lottery picks, undefeated, unimaginable talent - and yet…no NC.
But we all agree that KU needs to make deeper runs in the tourney and has been somewhat unlucky with their two bigs out the last two years. We will do better this year. Keep the faith.
Final Four or bust! Rock Chalk!
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@justanotherfan did you read that Coach wants the guards to take more chances, wouldn’t care if they had more TO’s? So many fans struggled w/TT, but I loved watching him and TRob!
Let’s take a timeout on the whole “winning the tournament is a crapshoot” thing and really think about it.
If winning the tournament was really a crapshoot, then statistically, the champions would be spread pretty evenly. If you take into account that lower seeds aren’t as good, the champions should be distributed pretty evenly among the top 4 seeds. That is not what we find.
Since 1979 (first year of seeding, so 37 total years of seeding), the champions breakdown is this:
1 - 21 titles
2 - 6 titles
3 - 5 titles
4 - 1 title
6 - 2 titles
7- 1 title
8 - 1 title
#1 seeds win the title more than half the time. That’s not a crapshoot, folks. That means one of the four best teams wins the title, generally speaking. Taking it a step further, the one and two seeds account for 27 of the 37 titles. That’s 73% of the titles going to one of the eight highest seeded teams.
If you want to know who the champion will be, figure out who the best eight teams in the country are, and work from there.
Once you are in that group, yes, things get a little more interesting, but you have to be in that group in order for it to even make a difference. Since 1990, there has been exactly one champion that was not seeded among the top 4 (UConn, 2014). In fact, since 1990, every champion has been either a 1 or 2 seed except Arizona (4, 1997), Syracuse (3, 2003), Florida (3, 2006) and UConn twice (3 in 2011 and 7 in 2014). That’s 26 champions, and just 5 weren’t a top 2 seed. In fact, since 1990, there have been more than twice as many title games featuring teams that were both top 2 seeds than champions outside the top 2 seeds (1993, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2001, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2015).
Talent matters in college basketball, and it matters a ton. Every so often, the stronger teams will falter and a random Arizona or UConn will make a run, but generally, if you take out your bracket at the beginning of March and sprinkle the Final Four with #1 and #2 seeds, you will do okay. Since 1990, it’s more likely that 3 of the 4 teams were top 2 seeds, than not. Only 11 times (1990, 1992, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014) were 2 or more of the Final Four not 1’s or 2’s.
@justanotherfan Well said justanotherfan
@justanotherfan So if no 1 seeds win most if the time, should Kansas strive to be a no 1 seed? And isnt the way to a no 1 seed winning games? Playing the players who have the knowledge and expereince to win games now, not giving a ton of playing time to your raw freshman in order to more quickly develop them and risk losing games ?
Here’s the thing. KU isn’t going to lose to UC Irvine or Holy Cross or some of the other teams we have faced so far this season. That’s why you notice that most of the top freshmen are averaging close to 20 minutes per game. They played lots of minutes because whether you beat Irvine by 15 or 8 is irrelevant come March.
But whether your guy is Landen Lucas or Carlton Bragg makes a huge difference come March.
@justanotherfan Yes, but not playing them until they are ready may mean they come back next year?!? As they should…
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@justanotherfan but what teams are those guys playing w/and how many seasoned vets are on that team? Are those teams ranked? We are still a team here, not a nba factory. I want diallo and Bragg to get more minutes too and earlier, but for me, they have to earn it.
Bwag last edited by
@justanotherfan So to add a dimension to your analysis.
There have been a total of 148 #1 seeds in that 37 year period. Only 21 (or 14%) have one the championship. If you add the #2’s in there 9% of the possibles have won it all from those rankings.
I think the 1/2 line analysis is the way to go since there are only 4 - 1 spots open and there are more significant b-ball conferences that the best of each league can compete for those 4 spots.
So 81% of the teams that get on those lines, don’t win.
This then speaks to what are the qualities of the teams that do win. To expand your thought about “winning the tournament is a crapshoot”.
I’ve not done the analysis, but if we look at the distribution of the actual winners (ie programs) that are winning championships, it probably narrows even more and further undermines the “crapshoot” argument. Our argument over playing time, playing style - or moreso - adjustment of style to personnel is the crux of the issue.
Beyond getting to the 1-line, what separates us in March to not be one of the 86% of the #1 teams that falter and don’t win? Playing low-ceiling players significant minutes in a easily winnable game with or without him or playing players with more upside minutes that gain them the necessary experience?
I think the argument from some of us, that the low ceiling-but looks and plays better now approach that Self resorts to-has perhaps made us less competitive in March to win it all,
Several of the other Super Programs have shown more success at winning it all versus our steady as it goes consistency play. I think what shield Coach K from his big tournament flame=outs is that he’s won the grand prize at a more consistent pace.
KansasComet last edited by
@justanotherfan 1979 was a 40 team tournament. The top 6 seeds did not play 1st round games. It took 3 wins to get to the Final Four. Definitely not a crapshoot. Current format of 68 team is.