Picking the mind of KU fans
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I guess what I’m asking is, “The longer the streak goes does the streak it’s self take away some of the luster of the great accomplishment”?
Hell to the No! As I mentioned earlier, only John Wooden has done what Bill Self is doing and that was nearly 40 years ago. It’ll be another 40 years before we see anyone even come close to matching with KU on that front.
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@Lulufulu I get what you’re saying, but come on. You know John Wooden because of his national championships. Not the conference streak. Again, do you know how many conference championships Coach K has? I don’t. No clue. But I know how many titles he has during his tenure. That’s what I want for Self and KU too.
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@drgnslayr You know, your statement about the media getting tired of picking against KS in the BigXII conf race…it made me wonder: Why? Why are they so reluctant to pick KS? Whatever “media bias” there is in favor of east coast markets/ACC, should still apply to other BigXII teams like OU, TX, IowaSt, OklaSt…
Or, and I say this with total sarcasm: KU is simply the “token” blueblood, so its always a ready-made David vs Goliath story line for the east coast talking heads to do minimal prep for their BigXII commentary?
Honestly, because of this east-coast/big-TV-mrkt bias, KU + Bill Self need to get to the Final4 as often as possible! But why do a Conf. Championship and a Final 4 have to be exclusive? --attaining one is a fair but not perfect yardstick of what kind of team you have, right?
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I think part of it is their bias.
I think another part is just their attention-getting formula to inspire people to watch (and listen) to them. They have taken a page out of “tv news” where it isn’t about reporting news in an unbiased manner… they would rather call it “news” but turning it into bs commentary full of bias. They approach their program much like a web forum and they are the trolls… just trying to get a reaction out of people.
It is hard for people to click to another channel when controversial statements are being made… for or against their own opinions.
The almighty dollar rules their souls.
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A little off topic here…but here are some other lesser known streaks we are a part of.
Kansas holds the current NCAA record for…
Consecutive 30 win seasons - 4 - 2010-2013
Consecutive 25 win seasons - 10 - tied with UCLA 67-76; UNLV 83-92; KU 2006-current…we should break this record this year.
Current Consecutive 20 Win Seasons - 26 - 1990-Current (Longest consecutive 20 win season Streak is held by North Carolina at 31 seasons, but it ended in 2001.)
We have to be careful when comparing these streaks to historical references because we play more games than they did 10, 15, 20 + years ago.
But in regard to consistency and relative to our peers during the past 26 years…we are the top dog.
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Overall, we need to go TAKE IT from OU and ISU. And, hey, let’s not suffer that interminable embarrassment by letting KSuckers beat us. You cannot allow the KU brand get tainted on natl TV like those purple fools did with their octagon-orgy of pushing/shoving/assaulting/“I hope you die, Bill Self” crap they spewed. (I was embarrassed to be a Kansan at that moment…)
But then, there must be a new mindset about the post season. For the kids the urgency is almost oxymoronic to have to spell it out: your final games. Of the season, possibly of your KU career.
So: win the BigXII, win the BigXII Conf.Tournament (which being a 1-loss-u-done tourney, is a great dress rehearsal for the Big68…). Then get to the Final 4.A true Final Four team MUST find a way to win. We found a way vs Davidson and Memphis in 08. And Bill Self’s greatest ever team had to do that twice in 6 game Madness! I now duly reference the 2012 Tyshawn/TRob Hawks, as they found a way to get past 5 of 6 Madness teams. All with no real bench. Call it luck, or call it absolute heart, scrapping, fighting, refusing to say die, along with bigtime ptp’ers showing up to play with their A game.
Do we have a team of crunch-time “gamers”? That is what will serve Jayhawk Nation’s interests. Also, keep a close tab on our defensive rankings… We sucked the last 2 years (relative to other Self rosters), and we bowed out ungracefully in the 2nd round x 2.
Finally, don’t forget a KU team “getting away from its core principles” (turnovers, D, rebounds)…as we even saw an overall 1-seed KU team (MorrisHawks) fall to VCU by several key failings in that 1 game, starkly uncharacteristic. Bill Self preaches all those little details for a reason: you forget them even 1 time, you can get beat by anybody. Or a nobody. Make em feel then like they’re a ‘somebody’…Avoid the ignominy. The devil is in the details of execution.
RCJH
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First thing these boys need to learn -
“THERE ARE NO UPSETS IN MARCH!”
If they don’t believe it… they are already beat. They won’t prepare for St. Mary’s Church of Castrated Clergy and lose by 15 and, once again, embarrass the Jayhawk Nation in March.
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Now, my above post, I just realized is solely from a nuts & bolts, pure basketball performance standpoint. A KU standpoint.
What I almost hate to contemplate, is the whole 3rd party, “money” perspective. I am still haunted by Self’s Illini recruits going toe-to-toe with Roy’s (Daugherty’s) UNC kids in the 2005 Champ game and absolutely getting ref-whistled right out of a NC…It was clear. It was obvious. There have been other games where you wonder if the “fix” was on. Dare I mention Coach K’s almost god-like ability to get key calls and key no-calls late in a game? How about that Duke game where their 3 shooter travelled twice? 2 bad calls on KU on offensive end. All within the last 3 min. Hey, the stuff of Krzyzewski’s Legend is made of this. Because it serves the big money markets. Not to mention the myriad of influential business types back east that are ACC people and Dookies also.
Shoe company stuff? Who knows if Louisville was the token adidas NC…uh, every “few” years? Duke is Nike. Wisconsin is Adidas. Let Wiscy “beat” KY, ‘cuz we got DukeNike waiting in the wings…’.
For NCAA’s golden event imagine the upset sponsors if it is 2 small market (Midwest, Mountain, etc) teams playing in the NC game. So the “System” is to feed recruits, instruct refs, etc… to produce a “suitable” contender from the East Coast almost every year. Louisville is acceptable, as they are sort of back east. Everybody over 2 generations knows who Rick Pitino is. People will watch. We should get enough market audience for all the tens of millions spent on advertising…
If this all sounds very sarcastic, it is. Unfortunately, one can play this little behind-the-scenes-what’s-the-real-driver (where’s the $ trail) with almost anything. My brother has been especially spicy in his sarcasm regarding world events of the last few years (in the Mideast). An absolute downer to think this way, at least to my usual way of thinking…
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@ralster and don’t forget the f u KU chant!
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Interesting question but we have to look at the two event in context.
First, if KU does not win the conference, chances are it does not make it to the Final Four. As coach Self has said before, winning the conference gives you a better shot in the tournament starting with a better, more favorable seed and hopefully a better match-up, although I have to admit the Basketball Gods, i.e. Selection Committee has not done KU any favors lately; giving WSU such a low seed last tournament and forcing KU to play a heavily under-seeded team with a huge chip on its shoulder is a good example.
As far as Conference titles…if this would be KU’s 3rd or 4th or 7th Conference Title…I would say take the Final Four; however, KU is about to make sports history and every analyst I have heard on the subject has indicated this would be one of the biggest accomplishments in all sports…so I would say that in context, the conference tittle would have a bigger and much more lasting effect than a Final Four appearance.
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People wonder this about most streaks. It must be happening for some reason other than human mastery of a process. But Wooden was quite confident that he and his staff had “learned how” to win championships regularly. Other coaches have had similar levels of talent runs, like Dean Smith, but only Wooden and his staff figured out how to do it. Same with Self’s conference title run.
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@DoubleDD personally, I agree with you, all it shows is that we won the conference - - -AGAIN. so we continue to win this conference, then our conference goes in to the NCAA tourney loaded with teams 6- - 7 and fall flat on our face, what does that say about the strength of the conference?- - then we keep getting put out in the early rounds of the tourney, so this is tel the rest of the country, they can win in a weak conference that becomes the perception but win they come up against proven competition , the proof is in the pudding, the conference fails to show itself in the tourney, Ku has early exits lately soooo what is that sayin to the country? ya, they win 11 straight conference championships in a overrated conference. The luster has been takin off, until the conference shows better in the tourney, and we still win the conference, THIS is the year for our run at the NC so you better back it up and go for it
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@Lulufulu Ok so let me ask which means more to you another year of conference championship- - -or the National Title, which means more to an incoming recruit? A team that wins National Championships? or conference titles, so you would rather kiss your sister then Miss America? that’s how they compare to one another
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@MoonwalkMafia Agreed `100%
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@MoonwalkMafia Ask those Duke fans, - - -Kentucky fans which they want worse, or which means more- - pretty simple
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I agree with those saying the 5th or 7th conference title starts to be a ho-hum type affair, regardless the thanks we should show to the boys and coach for winning it. It is a feather in the cap…
But about to do 12th straight? Now Self is truly adding something significant to the KU Legend–NOW it is starting to be truly something special on its own. Not competing with a NC, but on its own merits. The fact that essentially 5 different KU rosters have done this under Self is a testament to him and his system for getting kids to listen and execute. It proves he has the details right.
And of course adding a NC to the KU Legend is a standalone Legacy-level feat anytime it happens.
And for those who want more from Self regarding March Madness…maybe he is purposely recruiting ball-handling guards with a chip on their shoulder. That delicate balance between a kid with enough skill to play, one that is teachable, but one who always carries a chip on his shoulder due to his “non-McDAA” status. Tyshawn and that Rodriguez guard from VCU may have incidentally made Self think back to his own non-elite-ranked guards of his earlier coaching days…for now we see Frank and Devonte…both non-McDAA’s but, both fully capable of playing excellent bball. (see A:T ratio on each, they are currently exceeding RussRob+Chalmers’ ratio). Baker and VanVleet are other examples of such types of under-radar guards.
But I think Self would say regardless of who your individual players are, the main question is of consistency and efficiency. If you can build a team, and nurture it to give you those 2 qualities by late Feb…you are in business for a deep March run.
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I am reminded by @jayballer54 's post that Coach K and Duke didn’t make the Final 4 for approx. a 9-10 year stretch…
Duke had a couple of 1st round and some 2nd round exits. I wonder how much angst their fanbase displayed on those occasions? I wonder what their fan websites were like?
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…but the question was not winning the NCAA but making it to the Final Four with no guarantees…which may be like kissing ESPN Woman of the Year only to find out that she was really Bruce Jenner… :d
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“I agree with those saying the 5th or 7th conference title starts to be a ho-hum type affair, regardless the thanks we should show to the boys and coach for winning it. It is a feather in the cap…”
It may become ho-hum for some people… but even the media, as we added every year, has given more attention to it because it represents a moment to gibgab more hype.
I’ve enjoyed hearing media talk it up. It deserves the attention.
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@HighEliteMajor You can’t answer the question? You often say the National Championship is the only thing that matters? So if it is the only thing that matters, shouldn’t that be your answer to the question? And yes, I read your reply to the question.
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@DoubleDD My answer is I cheer for KU to win every single game. So of course I would take the Conference Title. The Conference Championship shows sustained excellence during the regular season. As I have mentioned many times over, the NCAA Tournament is flawed. Teams that have not done “Jack Diddly Squat” over the course of an entire season can get in. I am not impressed. What I can appreciate is a team that goes out and consistently wins 25-30+ games year in and year out, again, sustained excellence. That what makes Kansas a top tier basketball program to me. I would love to win the NCAA Tournament every year, but at the same time I wish it were a true tournament of Champions. When teams with a record of 12-17 get into the tournament, something is wrong with the system. So, yes sign me up for the Conference Championship. That’s the way it is for me. I will take my chance in the NCAA Tournament, because in the end, that’s all it is.
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@KansasComet I like you post…nice summary! I will take BOTH a BigXII Crown and a NC. Why not?
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@ralster Thanks. That’s the only way I can truthfully answer that question. I would not be happy suffering through a season of not being the best team in a Power 5 Conference. I appreciate Kansas efforts through the regular season. Anyone that has watch the tournament since 1985 when it switched to its current format knows that it is a crapshoot and not a best of the best tournament. I wish the tournament only had 32 teams, that way it would truly be a best of the best tournament and winning the regular season would count for something and not be so easily marginalized.
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Ok I’m going to throw another log on the fire.
A couple points or to be exact two points.
One Gonzaga has won several conference championships in a row yet no body noticed? UCLA has won several conference championships in a row and nobody noticed? Well to be fair UCLA did win several National championships in a row in that same time period. Hell I wasn’t aware of UCLA dominance in the conference game until KU went on their own run. The truth be told Nobody remembers UCLA dominance of the Pac 10, yet they remember their dominance on the national stage. Not so sure Conference championships mean that much?
So many say the big tournament is a crap shoot? OK then let me ask this question? Then why has it been that a blue blood has always made the final 4 except one year. (somebody might want to check that one). The Tournament isn’t luck, it’s about playing your game. Coach’s recent failures in the tournament aren’t because of bad luck or matchups. It’s because he didn’t play to his teams strengths. How many times has KU lost to the three ball in the tournament. Yet coach on the record has said the 3 is fools gold.
The tournament isn’t a crap shoot like must of us think. It’s about playing to your strength. Think about it? How many final 4’s and championship games has KU played in? Think that was all luck?
No it wasn’t.
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@DoubleDD Good point. Now some point to the 2008 team as having several “lucky” breaks, but there are teams every year that do not necessarily require numerous highly fortuitous circumstances to win. Like you said, it is all about playing your own game.
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@MoonwalkMafia Do you know what the requirement was just to get into the NCAA Tournament was back during the Wooden Years?
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@KansasComet You know, that might be one of the reasons that Coach Self emphasizes conference so much - back in the day, they didn’t have post season conference tournaments. There were much fewer slots to the tournament, and if you didn’t win your conference, there was a chance you wouldn’t be invited.
This is not directed at you, but I can’t get my head around equating conference titles to not winning national titles. What does one have to do with the other? So, if we win conference, and lose in the NCAA, suddenly winning conference is bad? Let’s say we lost conference…would that increase our chances in the tourney? If given the choice, wouldn’t you rather win both? Why all the caterwauling on the boards right after we beat a top 15 team with huge freaking size ( the kind of team that would’ve beat us last year) ? Are we at KU becoming the basketball version of LSU, which nearly fired a national championship coach with a 78% win percentage???
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@DoubleDD I said the NCAA Tournament is a crapshoot, and here is why: 68 Teams to decide the best team in College Basketball? What a joke. Take a look at NCAA Football. I know they play games once a week and most schools play at least 12 games. I get all of that, but the games that decide Championships are best of the best games. Agreed? You must win at least 6 games to become “Bowl Eligible” which is the reward for having a decent season. To contend for a National Championship, you must win and the emphasis is on winning each week. 1 loss, usually means you are still okay, 2 losses and your season could be in jeopardy, and 3 losses, you can pretty much forget about it. That’s the format and it pretty much is a best of the best tournament.
With NCAA Basketball it does not matter what a team does in the regular season at all to get in. An example, teams that won only 12 games and have 17 losses still get in a tournament to decide a National Championship. Where did this mess come from? It has to be about the money? It cannot be about deciding what team is the best. It discredits teams that have worked very hard to have excellent Regular Seasons.
Speaking from the heart, the real culprit is the end of season Conference Tournaments. How does every team get invited to a Conference Tournament. If every team is invited, then they should have it at the midpoint of the Regular Season.
Just like in school, if you get F’s on your Report Card, then you should not expect to be placed on the Honor Roll.
In the John Wooden Era, only the Regular Season Champion got in the tournament. The 1970-1971 USC Trojans went 24-2 with their only 2 losses coming to UCLA and they were not invited to the NCAA Tournament. There were no “At Large Bids” back then.
So, lets flip the script. How successful would Bill Self’s Kansas Teams have been in John Wooden’s format, and how successful would John Wooden’s UCLA Teams have been in the current format?
I am not for all of the “Cinderella” stories. Cinderella is a fairytale. I would like to see a best of the best tournament that rewards excellence in the Regular Season. A team that suddenly gets it at the end of the season, and goes on an incredible run should do so in the NIT. Cinderella does not belong in the NCAA Tournament, Regular Season Champions do. Just my opinion. I am not in any way trying to convince anyone that my way is the only way of thinking when it comes to this topic. We are all entitled to our opinions, I am expressing mine and I respect and appreciate everyones opinion on the subject even though we may disagree. Hopefully, we all agree that we love it when KU wins!!!
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@jayballer54 In real life, more Kentucky fans kiss their sister.
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I just wish we’d lose the conference championship and then win it all so we could stop having this conversation every year!
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“I am not for all of the “Cinderella” stories. Cinderella is a fairytale. I would like to see a best of the best tournament that rewards excellence in the Regular Season. A team that suddenly gets it at the end of the season, and goes on an incredible run should do so in the NIT.”
Then there’s no 1988 championship, because they may have been the biggest cinderella in the history of the tourney.
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@wissoxfan83 I always looked at 1988 as Karma for 1986. If Kansas were a double digit seed, I might consider them a cinderella. Fact is they were a 6 seed and played an incredible schedule. A 6 seed would mean they were considered in the top 24 since there are 4 brackets. Nothing cinderella about that. I know it makes for a great story created by the media. Fact is they took on all comers. They played a Kansas State team that made the Elite 8 four times during the season, they played Oklahoma 3 times, and Duke twice. Danny, Milt, and Kevin were excellent basketball players. In my opinion the 1988 team was not a cinderella team that came from out of nowhere. My main issue is with teams with losing records being allowed into the tournament.
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@KUSTEVE Yep, I want it all. I said earlier that I think Bill should swing for the fences this year, still mean it too. But I want both. I really do. Can’t argue with the fact that a conference champion gets an automatic 1 or 2 seed and thus a supposed easier path to the FF.
You are also right about Vandy. They would have beat us last season, the one before that too. I hope we arent getting close to asking for Coach’s ouster for whatever happens. Not like it would happen anyways. His seat is pretty much heat proof. I mean, he would have to really Eff things up in a Calipari vacate season and wins type of way for him to get booted from KU.
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Last ten NC and how they did in reg season conference play.
Duke 2014-15 did not win it.
UConn 2013-14 did not win it.
Louisville 2012-13 did in a three way tie.
Kentucky 2011-12 did with ease.
UConn 2010-11 didn’t win it. Finished 9th.
Duke 2009-10 shared with Maryland.
North Carolina 2008-09 did.
Kansas 2007-08 shared with Texas.
Florida 2006-07 did win it.
Florida 2005-06 did not win the east division.
In the last 10 years 6 of the NCs did win it. Three of those six shared it with at least one other team.
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I’d toss this in, tell me the seasons Roy won the conference title? Now tell me the seasons he got to the final four?
I don’t think I ever had frustration with Roy over not winning the conference. My memories in that regard are frustration with the gap between 1993 and 2002, and no national titles.
I do like the discussion on conference titles creating a better path to the FF. However, that places the conference titles in their proper place – a means to an end.
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Good topic- and , as has been mentioned earlier in the thread by HEM, it does speak to what it is one gets out of being a fan of KU. I do think the streak is historic - ESPECIALLY in a very competitive conference. Plus for me it is a goal i look forward to. The season builds up to it, and in our conference the games can be ferocious and nail biting. Winning the conf is definitely a big deal even though we have won it a lot. Then we have the b12 tourney, a mini fun goal, then we enter the big crapshoot. At this point my personal expectations are in direct proportion to how good a team we appear to have. The greater you appear to be, the harder the fall when you lose. Just ask kentucky and their fans last year. When you come in as a modest team, every win in the tourney is a bonus gift and yes, lets us watch another game by our beloved team.
Would i take a few National championships over the streak? Yes. But im incredibly proud of the streak and our coach and the whole program. I can live with just the streak- easy
Now - another question is - how much would your fan-dom be tested if KU became an average also-ran team (like the VAST majority of D1 programs)? How many years of this before your interest would wane? For those here who thrive on criticism of the program, it would give you plenty of fodder and fuel. For some it would be sad, and may lead to an eventual distancing and lack of caring anymore.
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@KUSTEVE Thanks, we are on the same page. I say try to win the Conference first, and then put best foot forward come tournament time. Losing in the tournament does not mean failure. Winning the Conference Title means there were many successful moments.
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When we talk about Conference title streaks we have to look at them in context. Let’s face it, 40-50 years ago, when UCLA has it golden years, a few teams dominated college basketball and realistically, there were only a handful of teams capable of winning the title and they were head and shoulders above all others. Now, on any given day any of 200 teams can beat top 10 team and yes, it is an upset but not that unusual any more. The parity back then and what we have now is night and day. It is lot more difficult to maintain excellence year after year…remember UK, perhaps the most dominant program on the last few years, losing to Bobby mo in the NIT? Or UConn winning it a couple of years ago after not even being ranked in the top 20 going into the tournament and missing tournaments in between tittles?
Also, when we talk about Gonzaga, were are talking about a weak conference that routinely send at best 2 teams to the tournament where the Big 12 is consistently one of the top ranked conferences and the only one to sent 70% of its team to the dance.
If KU breaks the record for consecutive conference titles in the current environment, it will be considered one of the biggest accomplishments in sports ever…and most sports analysts have said that much.
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@KUSTEVE I agree - we probably would have lost to Vanderbilt last year.
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Great perspective!
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@Bosthawk Outstanding post. Thanks.
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@Lulufulu InsideCarolina is the UNC site. I used to get on there just to read, but haven’t in past 2yrs…
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Throwing gasoline on the fire.
Conference championships are fine, and KU’s run or dominance over the Big 12 is great. Yet in the same breath KU’s dominance over the Big 12 has down graded it as a weak basketball conference.
Have we not heard the arguments? Well if KU was in the Big 10, ACC, SEC, or Pac they wouldn’t have won so many conference championships.
Look I’m fine with the streak and the dominance KU and coach has shown in the regular season. Yet what I do have a problem with is everybody given Coach a free pass when it comes to the big tournament and his failures. It’s like saying hey coach we’ll give you a free pass if you lose in the second round every year just as long as you win the conference championship.
Bottom line ask yourself this 20 years from know will Espn be doing 20/20’s on KU’s conference success or that UK is making it the final 4 every year? Who will be considered the most dominating program? The program that wins their conference championship every year, or the team that makes it the final 4 every year.
Sorry guys and gals but UK’s loss in the NIT is fading very fast. They are giving the benefit of the doubt and ranked in the top five every year before their stud class ever hits the floor. Also I maybe mistaken but it seems to me they are in the final four every year.
Basketball fans aren’t going to remember how KU dominated the Big 12. Yet I’m pretty sure they all going to remember how UK dominated college basketball.
Yet here in Jayhawk nation the big tournament is all luck?
