Random Stuff
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There is huge difference between the NCAA “rejecting” the transcripts, in other words saying that they are not valid or the NCAA indicating that the course taken do not meet the requirements or that the student simply did not take the number of core credits required by the NCAA. One would indicate that the school is doing something shady or the courses it offers are not up to standards and the other would indicate that he student simply did not take the number of core credit that the NCAA requires.
As far as Kobie Eubanks, he only played his senior year at Our Savior and his issue is related to his previous HS and Our Savior played no part on that and its transcript did not get rejected by the NCAA, the one(s) from his previous HS were. Here is a link that outlines the issue and as far as I know, Our Savior has had no other players turned down by the NCAA.
Again, I will try to find the link to the story that indicates that the issue with Diallo is his overseas transcript and not the Our Savior transcript. Anyone that has attended HS overseas knows that the transcripts need to be certified by the State Department (mine were) and many times they are unable to do so because the grading used in other countries is quite different…sometimes from one year to the next. Oftentimes the State Department simply states they are unable to certify and advise schools to admit the student, provided the school’s ACT/SAT requirements are met and see how the student performs the first year.
There is ZERO evidence that Coach Self knew of any potential issues.
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“Again, I will try to find the link to the story that indicates that the issue with Diallo is his overseas transcript and not the Our Savior transcript.”
That raises even more fear in me!
A friend of mine’s dad married an African woman and she has never been able to adopt his nationality because she has no valid birth certificate. It doesn’t exist in the area she came from and there is no solution for her. From a record keeping perspective… she was not born on this planet! Very frustrating situation that can not be resolved.
I wrote a sarcastic post on here last week about Cheick’s educational records being discovered under a tree in Mali. It was meant to be sarcasm but actually addresses my fears.
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We can refine this further.
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Perimeter treys = 3 possible points always.
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Midrange jumpers = 2 possible points most of the time unless Bad Ball is used to shrink the impact zone to a point one can draw fouls in the mid range shooting zone.
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Low post scoring and iron driving = possible 3 points much of the time.
Inference: to maximize your potential scoring, you want to take as few midrange jumpers as possible, when playing anything other than Bad Ball.
One of the reasons Bad Ball worked so well is that it turned the mid range shooting zone into a much higher probability of a 3 point play. By continually driving into defenders at all five positions everywhere on the court, the shrunken impact space and the pressure of going all the way to the rim made it easier for KU’s drivers to pull up short in the mid range zone and take their jump shots jumping INTO the defender, thus drawing more fouls than normal in the midrange. In turn, as the game wore on, more and more opposing defenders were playing with more fouls and having to lay off more, which opened up both the outside trey, and the drive to iron.
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “There is ZERO evidence that Coach Self knew of any potential issues.”
That is only part of the analysis.
Should he have known?
That’s due diligence.
He absolutely should have known. And I would be shocked if he didn’t know of transcript issues.
Your own post notes the issues with overseas transcripts, which relates directly to the “knew or should of known” regarding coach Self. Coach Self, dealing with foreign players regularly, didn’t know? Or didn’t investigate? Or didn’t suspect? Or wasn’t skeptical? I would be completely shocked if this whole thing were news to coach Self. In any case, he should have known.
But my opinion is that it is completely irrelevant. What was Self going to do in May, not sign him? There was no other player really worth getting for this coming season. Even if he did know, or should have known, it was worth the risk at the time I would think.
Now, if he signed Diallo in November and it cost him other guys without eligibility issues, sure, different conversation.
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Random stuff
Lunardi’s 2016 Bracketology.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bracketology/_/iteration/36
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Yes and no, KU has had several foreign players with no issues, Embiid Wiggins, Svi, all of them in the last couple of years come to mind, all of them with part of the HS course work completed in other countries. According to USBasket.com “there are 3,428 foreigners, who have been playing pro and college basketball in the U.S. in last 5 years,” so the great majority of them go though with no issues and assuming a foreign players will have no issue is not unrealistic.
By all accounts Diallo is a good student with no history of academic issues/red flags, i.e. multiple schools. and every major program including Kentucky and Duke (and ISU from our own Big 12) recruited Diallo and none backed off because none saw any indication of potential issues.
Look at the Eubanks situation. Apparently his original transcript had one GPA and subsequent transcripts showed up later with lower GPAs and long after he had committed to Baylor and he ended up having to go to a prep school for a year. These are things that regardless of how much due diligence you do, you cannot find out until the NCAA gets involved. Even local player Rush was not cleared until September…it happens…Alexander was late qualifier as well, if I recall correctly. Frankly, I would worry more about a top prospect from a big city with zero interest in academics and with a tunnel vision leading to the NBA.
Most “basketball factory” schools do not even have a building and are basically a 4-year traveling team and students take classes at different schools, like Oubre did at Findley Prep, or even Labissiere (who has not been cleared either but he has other issues not related to academics). By all indications, Our Savior is not that type of school since it has it own campus with several hundred students in grades K-12…not quite what you normally associate with a basketball factory type school.
My guess is that Diallo will get cleared some time in September.
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@JayHawkFanToo Just “Yes” … he either knew or should have known.
The buck stops with the coach. The coach needs to know the academic situation of everyone of his recruits. If a player fails to qualify because of something that was related to academics that occurred prior to his signing, it is fair to blame the coach for a lack of due diligence.
Certain facts, of course, could mitigate that.
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Few things in life are that black and white.
Here is what likely happens when schools look into a prospect.
Coach Self: How are your grades? Any issues we should be concerned about?
Prospect: I am doing well coach, here is my report card. You can see that I attend classes and get good grades.
Coach Self: Coach X, how is YYY doing on the court and academically?
HS Coach: He is doing great, he is a team player, practices hard and does not get into trouble. His grades are good otherwise he would not be playing. The reports I get from his adviser are that his grades are good and that he is fully eligible to play sports at our school and in our district.
Coach Self: Mr. Adviser, I would like to know how student YYY is doing academically and socially?
Academic Adviser: Obviously because of privacy laws I cannot show you his personal file but I can tell you that he is doing fine, both academically and socially and if his grades would not be good, he would not be playing varsity sports.
Coach Self: Any potential issue I should know that would jeopardize his eligibility to play Division I sports?
Academic Adviser: All his paperwork is in order, some of it is from his native country but the transcripts look good and we don’t see anyrseason why he would not qualify, but as you know the NCAA has its own way of looking at things.
Coach Self: Is there any thing that could come back to bite us?
Academic Adviser: Obviously I cannot guarantee anything since the NCAA has the final word, but that is true for all prospect and not only foreign students. Without revealing any information, I can tell you that I don’t see any reason why he would not qualify.
Coach Self: Mr. Z, as student YYY guardian in this country, are you aware of any issue, academically or otherwise, of anything else at all that could be a problem down the road?
Guardian: We have been very careful that nothing is done that would jeopardize this young man’s future, We make sure he goes to school and completes assignments and we monitor his grades and if there is anything else at all…we get a call from school and even minor issues are resolved quickly before they becomes problems. I can’t think of anything else we could do to insure he is on the right track. You are welcome to visit with all of us at home and you will see that he is in a really good environment and he gets all the family support he needs to succeed not only in HS but also at the next level.
As you know, because of privacy laws, there is very little information other than in broad terms that can be disclosed about a student by the school. I am sure Coach Self and his associated talk to other coaches at all levels, read the trade publications, follow blogs, twitter posts and are aware of any rumors about specific students.
What else would you suggest Coach Self does in the way of due diligence? Short of hiring someone to break into the school and take a peek at the student records and investigate anyone related to the student, there is really not much else he can do…legally, and even then, the record probably looks good and in many cases, the student does not even know there is a problem until the NCAA says there is a problem.
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I think coaches are sort of stuck in a “catch 22” scenario.
If a coach wants to thoroughly check out prospects they will have to spend much of their time and energy playing detective. They’d rather play recruiter. And when they find somethings that could put up a red flag, they still need to keep pursuing the athlete. Backing off of every kid that COULD have a problem will quickly limit a coaches choices and probable success.
It’s not like Self and his assistants are slugs. They don’t want to sign a kid and then lose him. But they have to take some gambles. All the elite schools take these gambles. We may have to take more because we don’t get to skim off the top cream like UK and Duke do.
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@wrwlumpy Oh NO! Joe, Joe, Joe! You have forgotten MIZZOU! And Nebraska. And Colorado.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the link. This jibes with what I said earlier: there was a discrepancy with the transcripts. The NCAA wouldn’t accept the Our Savior transcript because it differed from the American Heritage one. The Eubanks’ filed suit against American on the basis that it’s their fault. We don’t really know, but as with the Pitt kid, Diallo isn’t the only Our Savior kid being held up by the NCAA. What I have read hasn’t mentioned an issue with transcripts from Africa, although it has mentioned some suspect courses at Our Savior. I’d be kinda surprised if the NCAA were going to disqualify Diallo on the basis of his HS transcript if they were happy with his Our Savior work, given that he only went to HS in Mali for his freshman year. Then again, I wouldn’t put anything past the NCAA. If you’ve got specific information that contradicts that, I’m all ears.
@HighEliteMajor From everything I’ve heard and read, Self very much knew about potential eligibility issues with Diallo going in. If you look back, you’ll see I mentioned this on the day he announced, and I believe a week or so prior. Now if we can put aside the OAD issue for the time being, if you have a chance to get one of the top players in the class knowing that he might not qualify, would you? Especially if he could be a key cog? I think it’s worth the risk, especially since we already signed another top big in the same class. Mickleson having a bit of a breakout at the WUG is just icing.
I’m going to be of the mind that Diallo will receive eligibility unless we get all the way to October without hearing something. Either way, there’s no sense ruminating about it. If he’s eligible, we’ll have one of the best post players in the country on our team. If not, we’ll still have solid options in the front court, especially if Mickleson can carry his work forward.
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You need to read the article…
"The suit alleges that when Eubanks left American Heritage, the school certified a transcript sent to Our Savior that stated his GPA was 2.5. A second transcript, sent later to Eubanks’ new school said that he had a 2.37 GPA, a number which Eubanks alleges was altered by American Heritage.
When Baylor requested all of Eubanks’ transcripts to verify his enrollment, the fact that there were two transcripts on file with differing GPAs prompted an NCAA inquiry.
The suit claims that after the inquiry American Heritage lawyers informed Eubanks that it would only certify a transcript in which his GPA was 2.29, leaving Eubanks short of the NCAA minumum standard for scholarship freshmen."
The entire problem is due to transcripts from American Heritage and not from Our Savior and this is why Eubanks is suing American Heritage and not Our Savior.
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@JayHawkFanToo I read the link too, but do you understand what it actually means? The suit was filed by the Eubanks’, not the NCAA. The NCAA received a transcript from Our Savior that reported a different GPA than what they saw on the American Heritage transcript. The Eubanks’ are making the claim that it is American Heritage that changed the grade and Our Savior just reported what they (AH) said, but from the NCAA’s perspective, Our Savior transferred in an inflated GPA. Everything in the law suit is on the Eubanks’ say so, so of course they would put themselves into the best light in making their case. The NCAA rejected the Our Savior transcript. If you can demonstrate otherwise, as I said, I’m all ears, but nothing in the link contradicts what I’ve stated.
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Adding to my previous post, Our Savior CANNOT certify the transcripts from American Heritage, all it can do is to include them with the transcripts of the classes Eubanks took at Our Savior…those it can certify.
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@JayHawkFanToo Of course they can’t certify it. That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. They can certify their own transcript, and that transcript is going to include credits that they transferred in and a resulting GPA that they are claiming is accurate. So either American lied and inflated the GPA when they sent transcripts to Our Savior, or Our Savior lied and inflated the grade that they received. You cannot possibly know which case is the matter at this point, can you? Either way, you link doesn’t show it.
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I never said the NCAA was suing any one; I simply indicated that Eubanks was suing American Heritage HS.
Again, Our Savior cannot certify transcript from American Heritage, only American Heritage can certify transcripts from American Heritage.
Our Savior simple passed along the two “certified” transcript it received from American Heritage. Apparently Our Savior received the original “certified” transcript with GPA of 2.5, then Our Savior receive a second "corrected’ and “certified” transcript with GPA of 2.37. When Baylor saw the discrepancy and requested a transcript from American Heritage, it produced a third “certified” transcript with a GPA of 2.29. The fact that there were three “certified” transcripts from American Heritage would indicate a problem with them. The NCAA has a problem with the transcripts (plural) from American Heritage and not with the one from Our Savior. Seems pretty clear to me…
The fact that Our Savior included both “certified” transcripts it received from American Heritage would indicate they were providing all the information they had available and they were not hiding anything…don’t you think?
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@JayHawkFanToo As I’ve stated over and over, this is the Eubanks’ story. It hasn’t been corroborated by Baylor or the NCAA. It’s merely what the suit says. If this goes to trial and there are deliberations, we’ll find out what happened, but until then, you can’t uncritically accept anything that someone alleges in a law suit. It’s meaningless without the process of discovery and actual evidence. Our Savior doesn’t have to certify anything from American, but they are responsible for what they report about themselves. If they reported the original transcripts GPA in their GPA, then the NCAA could interpret them as trying to inflate it, perhaps to keep him eligible or help unfairly to get him into a D-1 school, whatever the case may be. If they took the amended GPA, then it could be the fault of American. We don’t know. There’s no reason to assume that we do, so there isn’t any reason to believe Our Savior is any more on the up and up than American. After all, if Our Savior is on the level, why do you think American would be tampering with Eubanks’ grades? I could understand an honest mistake, but what do they have to gain from lowering the GPA if it was correct to begin with, as Eubanks’ suit seems to imply? You’re just assuming Eubanks’ story is true (or at least truish), and there’s no reason to do so.
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It could be sour grapes. Eubanks played for American Heritage for 2 years and then he left the school/team in a lurch when he went to Our Savior for his senior year. Highly unlikely that any attorney would agree to take on a law suit like this unless there is pretty good documentation, otherwise they could find themselves at the receiving end of a counter suit by the school.
The fact that there were at least two transcripts is what started the whole thing so that much has been ascertained and since the NCAA did not clear Eubanks, he had to go to a prep school for an extra year to get his academic issues in order. In short, yes, the NCAA did not clear Eubanks.so that part of the story has been corroborated.
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m sorry, but I don’t think your scenario above is well thought out.
Schools to which a kid is applying have access to all of this information. Have you ever heard of a release of information? My oldest son provided his all of academic information from his high school before signing. I signed the release so that not only info could be provided and sent, but that the school could converse with my son’s school.
It is just comical. You cite privacy laws. But privacy laws only apply if someone wants to maintain privacy. Releases fix that.
Further, we are talking about the high school itself, as well. Information that a coach must be diligent in staying on top of. All a coach needs to do is contact the NCAA himself for information on the high school. The NCAA is there for the institutions. You miss a huge piece of the puzzle there.
Again, schools first and foremost can contact the NCAA directly about any high school program.
Further, there is an NCAA portal that all can use. The code for the school in question is 331284. Here’s the link
You will also see the notice under this school - “This program is under an extended evaluation period to determine if it meets the academic requirements for NCAA cleared status. During this evaluation period, the courses listed below may be subject to further review on a case-by-case basis, which will require additional academic documentation.”
Now, I don’t know how long this notice has been there. If it was there in May, then that would be definitive. I don’t know. But it is more than a stretch to think that this would be a surprise to Self, or that he couldn’t have understood this could be an issue when Diallo signed.
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@HighEliteMajor Very interesting stuff there, good find. It says that the last update was 4/21/15 so it almost certainly was there since then. Hopefully KU’s compliance dept picked up on it early enough and CD had a chance to right the ship if necessary prior to graduation/summer school ending.
Looks like there are 17 classes at the school that are listed as rejected by the NCAA. If CD took any of those courses it wouldn’t count towards his eligibility. Now, does anybody have access to his HS transcript?? Haha.
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I agree on the release; however, many prospects will only grant release after completion of HS work.
Now, let me ask you this question…granted that you don’t think much of Coach Self…but do you honestly think that if the transcript could be had that Coach Self or staff would not have secured a copy of one? How about Duke? or Kentucky that is rumored to have the best compliance person in the business? All of them and 100 other schools actively pursued Diallo and none (assuming the record was available) saw any flags that would make them back off, right? Don’t you think that this would in all likelihood indicated that there were no red flags with the transcript?
Now, if you go to the link that you so thoughtfully posted and enter the code for the school and scroll down, you will indeed see the caveat that you mentioned.
Now, continue scrolling down and look at the courses that have been approved and you will see a long list including Advance Placement and Honors classes; looks like 48 approved classes. Now, look at the “List of Denied NCAA Courses” and you will see a list of 17 classes, most of those remedial Math/English, computer science related (NCAA does not consider comp.sci. classes part of the core courses) and religion classes…they are a faith based school after all. As long as the student takes enough of the approved classes to complete the core requirements, there should not be an issue. right? Even you and I could get together (
) and figure that out…don’t you think that KU and the other schools would have done that much?Any top prospect that has an issue with his grades ends up going an extra year to a post-grad prep school to raise his GPA and meet core requirements. The fact that Diallo sent his information to the Clearinghouse and chose not to go an extra year to a prep school would appear to indicate that he was/is confident that he will be cleared based on the available information, right?
If Coach Self did not do his due diligence on Diallo, then he should be fired…and so should Coach K, and the squid, and Hoiberg, and Mullin, and Pitino, and Dixon…and every other coach that recruited Diallo that apparently did not exercise due diligence and did not see the issue either.
I am willing to wager a week of posting privileges in this Forum that Diallo gets cleared by the end of September…are you game?
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@JayHawkFanToo You have skirted the issue. The release item destroys the premise of your argument. And your caveat about granting it after release is a red herring – “many prospects”? Who? That is just vague cover of your mistaken position. Your mistaken position ignored the release issue in the first place.
Now you want to get into other schools (UK and Duke are your examples), and whether they knew, or saw red flags. That isn’t the issue. Though you’d surely like to change it.
This issue is whether Self knew or should have known of the issues. Not whether there were in fact issues.
The issue is not whether he should have “backed off” – I don’t think he should have, as I posted before, regardless. That isn’t the issue. And the issue is not whether there were or were not red flags.
My issue, what I have said, that you continue to challenge, is whether Self “knew or should have known.”
You have taken the position that there is “no evidence” that Self knew, and you have fought very hard to try to show the “Self should have known” piece is wrong as well.
My position is quite simple. When it comes to academic issues, a head coach should know what he is getting into, and that he has the resources to find out (should know).
And, again (as the all-time King of missing the point and deviating from the topic at hand), you start wanting to bet as to whether Diallo gets cleared? I guess I missed where I ever suggested he wouldn’t be cleared. But don’t let that stop you.
You said: “If Coach Self did not do his due diligence on Diallo, then he should be fired…and so should Coach K, and the squid, and Hoiberg, and Mullin, and Pitino, and Dixon…and every other coach that recruited Diallo that apparently did not exercise due diligence and did not see the issue either.”
I don’t even know what you are meaning by that. Why would you ask if Self should be fired? Who said that? My position was support for Self in recruiting Diallo even if he did know of the apparent academic issues.
Further, and what is obvious, you are assuming that because a coach recruited Diallo that he did not see the issue. That is not logical. Any coach, including Self, could see recruitment issues and still decide to recruit a kid. How hard is that to understand?
Self either knew or should have known of the issues presented by this delay. That’s pretty simple.
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“When it comes to academic issues, a head coach should know what he is getting into…”
I’m starting to ask… CAN a head coach know what he is getting into?
There is definitely a uniqueness with every recruit. Their history is slightly different and I believe the qualification issues are often in the details.
So CAN Self know what he is getting into? I do believe he somehow performs some risk assessment on recruits as we get into a closer relationship.
I’m still uncertain on Cheick… is the unsolved mystery about his education in Mali? Or is it with his education at Our Savior? Or is it both? I think if it is Mali… how can any coach have a clue as to whether or not he will be eligible? And there is some vagueness even if the issue is Our Savior.
The problem is everything is moving backwards. These kids should know where they stand (eligibility wise) BEFORE they go to a university. Most players could be cleared in their senior year of school, as long as they finish out their educational year correctly.
If somehow Cheick was found ineligible for the entire season, his recruitment cost us dearly. We probably would have gone after two more post players that could play this coming year… and not Cheick and Coleby. If Cheick doesn’t qualify we end up with last year’s post team, plus Carlton. Not exactly a fix to our woes. We could have gambled on a couple of bigs that were eligible and also had some potential. That would have added to our depth and the hopes that at least one of these guys could be put in for some quality PT.
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“Self either knew or should have known of the issues presented by this delay. That’s pretty simple.”
You are assuming that there is an issue but there is no evidence that we know of that there is one other than the customary delay in evaluating transcript that involve coursework outside the US…
I attended HS in 3 different countries including the US and to enroll in college in the States I had to have all the transcripts certified and I can tell you from my own experience that the process can take a long time. Transcript from countries such as Canada and Europe are pretty straight forward but those from other countries are not. I imagine that the NCAA Clearing House has a large number of analyst looking at transcripts from American applicants/schools which are the majority, and have very few that are familiar with transcripts from Africa and hence there is a longer wait. I will guess that once an analyst gets the transcript the process is fairly quick and an answer is provided immediately, unless they request a new, original transcript. in which case there is an additional wait for the documents which I believe is the case with Diallo, and once the documents are received the process is completed. I do not know for a fact that this is the case, so the narrative above is just my opinion based on my personal experience.
Have you ever conducted business with a foreign country that requires certified documentation…and by that I don’t mean buying cheap junk from China on EBay? I have to go through this process 4 times per year and it can take several weeks to get one document certified. If you think our bureaucracy is bad, wait until yous experience a third world country bureaucracy. I would be shocked if you could get any type of certified document from Mail in less than 2 months.
Again, my personal opinion based on my own experience is that for some foreign students that have taken part of their HS classes in certain countries and need transcripts from those counties, the long time to get cleared is the norm and not the exception. I would like to think that most foreign students do this long before graduation, but if a new official document is needed for any reason, the process could be extended considerably.
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I can verify how much red tape, time and money it can take anytime documentation crosses borders.
Even in European countries… everything takes time. I waited for several years to qualify as a dual-national. Until this lengthy process took place, I never knew what an apostille document authentication was. It required me to personally visit Topeka and burn up more time and money.
Now imagine the time it takes to get proper documentation from Mali… if it even exists.
These situations just require us to have patience and stay positive through the process.
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Certified transcripts can take time even in the states. I’m seeing this for example with a football player from a Power College team who is a Jr College transfer. Started at LSU left, went the JUCO route, then signed at another big time school. His grade for the 1 class he was waiting on has been known for weeks but the official transcript from the school has caused him to miss the first 5 days of practice. Another player on the same team had a 9th grade class rejected by the NCAA a few months ago. The kid took the class again on his own dime & submitted the paperwork to the NCAA over a month ago. Still no word on his eligibility as he continues to miss practice…
So 2 examples of how kids taking classes in the USA can take what seems like years to send a piece of certified paper to or from a school to the NCAA. Imagine if its Diallo’s classes in Mali that are being scrutinized, that could take forever. Even this current situation with Our Savior, its not like this investigation is new. This could drag until late September or even closer to the season, we know that the NCAA works at a snails pace.
