Which Coach Other Than Self Could Have Gone .500, or Better, Down the Stretch with the Team Self Had Left Last Season?
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Comments taken in context and with right amount of complexity as usual. Thanks!
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“…he is doing what his fan base wants and expects him to do to get KU to agree to play WSU.”–@JayHawkFanToo
WSU must be getting very disappointed with Marsha not getting Self to play the Wheat Static.
Go, Bill, go!!!
Ignore hell out of the Wheat Static each regular season, then beat them early and often in the Madness!
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.
Not even close to exhausted as a topic or you wouldn’t be responding.
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@drgnslayr said:
What do Kansas fans expect him to do? Bow down to us?
Yes, and after that bend over.
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@drgnslayr said:
You don’t have to convince me that Marsha is a great coach. He is a rare breed and able to do things few are capable of.
I still need a ton of convincing. He is good at best till he wins a ring. Period.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@drgnslayr I heard him say it. A friend of our family is a d1 ast coach and he told us a long time ago-before chickenhawk remark that Marsha is not respected by other coaches. IMO he’s a jackass
Most interesting!
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
@JayHawkFanToo said:
I think this topic has been discussed as much as it can be and we need to agree to disagree and move on.
Not even close to exhausted as a topic or you wouldn’t be responding.
Ah, an appropriate and succinct reply. When @JayHawkFanToo plays pickup, he must have a special rule that he always gets the last shot.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
There was no indication that it was an intentional, premeditated or flagrant foul; in fact, VanVleet was not even called for a foul
Opining your honor! And quite unpersuasive opining.
And the Zapruder Film doesn’t document that JFK got his brains blown out either!
Next, refs not calling a foul in this era hardly means there wasn’t one, but of course you know this.
Yeeee hawww, now we are having some off season fun!
Wha
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Can you think of a coach, any coach that has sat his starting PG or any other player for the rest of the game, …while playing in the NCAA or any other game
Irrelevant.
Can you think of a valid reason why a coach should not pull a player for a game, as punishment for unsportsmanlike conduct? I cannot. Heck, they pull players for games for poor performance?
Can you recall another coach in the same tournament faced with one of his players appearing to wield his elbow at the nose of another defender in quite the way Van Vleet appeared to do to Ellis? I cannot. So: why would I expect to find another coach to have pulled another player for such a play as that appeared? I haven’t seen an elbow appear to be wielded in that particular way before. It appeared extraordinary to me then and still seems so in recollection. Quite startling in first viewing and repugnant in replays.
Perhaps someone can post a feed of the elbow incident?
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We could be up against a much worse coach than Marsha in Wichita.
I respect him a lot more than I do Cal, Stumpy Miller or Scott Drew. We could be losing half our players to Wichita because they have a dirt bag coach handing out Presidential Rolexs.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Elijah Johnson was given a flagrant one for intentionally ringing Mitch McGary “bells” and Coach Self did not bench him, right? It just does not happen.
Irrelevant whether any one benched anyone for unsportsmanlike conduct last season, same as it is irrelevant whether anyone else other than benched anyone for improper loans. But you should know that.
Also irrelevant, because of invalid comparison. A nut punch is not remotely as dangerous to a victim as an elbow to the head. It would not make sense to compare an elbow to the face with a gunshot to the face either. Different levels of violence. Different situations and fitting responses. But you should know that.
But from what I could see, Self should have benched EJ, too. It’s a mark against Self that he didn’t. But Failing to bench Van Vleet for what he did to Ellis? REALLY BAD FORM on Marsha’s part. Suspending him for the rest of the season might have even been a fitting disciplinary action.
And it is possible that by not disciplining Van Vleet for the contact Marsha has increased the long term risk of playing for WSU. Any coach and team that prepares for WSU now probably realizes that this sort of play by WSU players is apparently tolerated, so opposing teams must train specifically to self protect and retaliate for such plays, or perhaps even adopt pre-emtive doctrine. The next players injured BOTH on WSU and WSU OPPONENTS by this kind of play may to some extent be victims of both those referees and Marsha’s apparent failure to address this issue constructively.
But you should know that.
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Now that’s a scary thought.
Marsha and Cal switch jobs.
Marsha at UK.
Cal with the Wheat Static.
Cal might not even HAVE practices at Wichita.
He might just have watch settings.
Auto-Howling!
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We are keeping you busy this morning!!!
We will all have to chip in to an @Red.Rooster fund in case of repetitive stress injury!!!
Rock Chalk!!!
And hurry up Late Night!!!
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YES !! I’m playing Catch-Up this morning. It’s late in the game and I’m coming back!
Thanks for your thoughts JB !!
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Gregg Marshall coached the Eagles from 1999–2007, engineering one of the great program turnarounds in NCAA history.
I wonder if Marsha wrote that?
Or maybe one of his supporters?
It doesn’t sound quite, ummm, objective to me. Does it to you?
194-83? That’s .700. Hmmm. That’s a good turnaround. But great? Wouldn’t good fit a little better than Great?
Wouldn’t calling Marsha a good coach rather than a great one fit a little better?
I know there have been a few great coaches that have not won rings, but we really can’t tell how great those non-ring winners are until we see their careers beginning to end. We have to see how they stack up with the other great coaches that have not won rings. We have to gauge their lasting contributions to the game, their character, their positive impacts on the game, the respect they earn from their colleagues and so on. Marsha has coached 17 seasons and is 358-159; that is a .715 W&L statement. It is good. But great? And what lasting contributions and/or innovations has he made to the game? I really can’t think of any, can you? Is he held in high esteem by the most respected of his fellow coaches? Has he made good enemies? You know. Do all the weasels dislike him?
And what is the context of his turnaround at Winthrop?
What was Winthrop’s record the previous few seasons? Any idea. I looked and couldn’t figure it out. You seem pretty good at ferreting this sort of thing out. Was Winthrop’s coach before Marsha a hapless coach? Or had he built a modest foundation Marsha could take and run with? If there were no decent players to build on at Winthrop, how did Marsha get the good players there his first season, which was a fine 21-8 and 9-1 in conference? Just trying to ground our understanding and perceptions of Marsha in whatever reality may exist about him.
I want to know my opponent.
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@wissoxfan83 said:
Wow, I like your knowledge of the Chicago public scene! I’ve more or less lost touch with Chicago hoops. I used to attend Proviso West tournament on trips home at Christmas, but it’s been 4 or 5 years since I’ve been there. Don’t know of the Reeves you’re talking about. I love Chicago public league basketball, Nothing like it in the country in my opinion.
wissoxfan83: Ken Reeves is the name of the head coach of Carver High School on the old TV show The White Shadow, which ran from 1978-1981 or thereabouts. I was trying to be funny with my White Shadow/Hoosiers coach references as Jaybate didn’t specify real or fictional coaches in his original thread. My family and I just cut our cable and got a Roku at Christmas, so I’ve been sifting through old shows from my youth and found The White Shadow on HuluPlus. I’m currently watching the final season, which is why I know so many of the plot lines. Anyway, sorry for the arcane reference. If you haven’t seen the show, I’d recommend it.
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@tis4tim Ah, I remember the show, but don’t think I ever watched it! There is a Carver High in Chicago and thought you were referencing that! Lots of episodes on youtube I just saw so maybe I’ll check it out.
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The Marshall topic has been discussed ad-nauseum in this and other threads; people feel the way they do about Marshall one way or another, be that as a person or as coach, and neither is right or wrong, they are all personal opinions that we are all entitled to have.
If you read my posts on the subject, my view of Marshall is very clear and if someone else has a different opinion that is fine with me. I personally feel that additional posts on my part will not advance the discussion further as I have said all I wanted to say. If other posters feel that there is more discussion to be had and want to continue discussing Marshall, they are most welcomed to do so, and again, I have no problem whatsoever with that. Like I said. we agree to disagree and move on. to more interesting topics, preferably related to KU basketball.
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I did not catch the reference the first time around. That takes me back a lot of years. Good show with a good message. I remember some of the characters, Coolidge and Salami and I believe there was Hispanic player as well. If I recall correctly the High school setting was in South Central LA not Chicago, right?
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@JayHawkFanToo oh, additional posts on your part only. I must have misunderstood, sorry.
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Just explaining my position, not discussing Marshall. my other post on different subject all together.
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I was about 7 or 8 when that show originally aired and I hadn’t watched it since, which is why I’m binge-watching right now.
Yes, Gomez was the Hispanic player and the setting was in LA. Ken Howard’s character, coach Ken Reeves, played professionally for the Bulls before a knee injury ended his career at which time he is convinced by a buddy of his to move to LA and coach Carver High.
The show does have a good message. What strikes me about it is how all the different racial backgrounds meld together on the show. There’s a lot of humor and a lot of rough-housing and everyone has problems, but ultimately everyone gets along. That’s how I remember things when I was a kid. We all acted tough and made fun of each other, but we all cared about one another. It wasn’t bullying, just kids being kids. Race just wasn’t an issue. We all came from different backgrounds and some had more and others less, but none of that mattered. Today, things seem so splintered. Maybe I’m just old.
What also strikes me about the show is how many future Hollywood people got some of their earliest breaks with bit parts on the show. I’ve seen Liz Sheridan (Jerry Seinfeld’s mom on the show), Dennis Haysbert (All-State spokesman and Cyrano in the film Major League) among others. Several big-time sports celebs like Bill Russell, Sparky Anderson, Rosie Grier and others made cameos from time to time. Even Salami (Mario Pettrino) was played by Timothy Van Patten, who is related to the late Dick Van Patten and went on to be a Hollywood producer. Yeah, the pacing is slow compared to today’s shows, but it had a good moral thread running through it and they took on some pretty hefty social topics for its time. All in all a decent show.
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“He is a rare breed and able to do things few are capable of.”
Like having his hair cut in the dark and it still sparkles. Must be the slick gel!
Sponsored by the LMJLC (Let’s Make Jaybate Laugh Committee)
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I apologize for veering off the main topic, but I hope you will find this interesting. I asked the players last Friday what other college coach they would like to play for if they could no longer play for Coach Self. Wayne, Frank, Jamari and Landen all said Hoiberg. Devonte said Huggins with Hoiberg second.
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@kansas-oats smart guys! I read, think in kc gyms this past weekend, that self sat right in the middle of all the coaches and cal was off in a corner by himself. They went on to say that coach Self talked to or greeted about everyone there.
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@Kcmatt7 Let’s say this about Gregg Marshall (and I live near and grew up in Wichita, attended Newman, took a class at WSU, then went to KU for professional school)–> Marshall does what Bill Self did at mid-majors: play hard, play smart, at both ends of the floor, which when you have a jr+sr laden team, can upset some “name” schools. The BIGGEST difference between Self and Marshall is that Self is way more of a recruiter and charismatic persona than Marshall. Before Self won anything in 08, he got 2 classes worth of McDAAs and top 60 guys, which culminated in the 08Championship (the “jimmies and the joes” to augment the “x’s and o’s”). Marshall has NEVER proven to be such a recruiter, and he knows it. Matter of fact, his “hate” of KU because of the recruits we land is downright disgusting, as the Wu-shox fanbase has picked up on his sentiment. Which perfectly segues into my next point: The word charisma is often mentioned about Bill Self, and I’ve experienced it myself when he was telling a story in a small classroom. Charismatic has never been used to describe Gregg Marshall. Frankly, taking snipe shots at a fellow state school is not a charismatic thing to do…notice how Self always takes the high road in his public comments directed at (ANY) other program or coach?
UCLA did offer Marshall, but he turned down the $1.1mil offer, as with cost-of-living in LA, it would be a monetary lateral move, and he avoids the pressure-cooker of the once-fallen-royalty-program that is UCLA. Now we get to watch Steve Alford squirm under the lights of Pauley Pavilion. Now Marshall is earning $3.3mil for staying home, and trying to see if he can put together a string of MVC conf titles… (without the ability to recruit top30 guys). Maybe Gregg Marshall knows his charismatic limitations.
And make no mistake, it does take a certain amount of charisma/managerial skill to “get” your collection of top talent to actually buy-in to your style of ball. And once you get them to buy-in, and you somehow get them 2yrs of experience in system, you may have playstyle options that only top athleticism guys can give.
(Bill Self vs. Gregg Marshall: Decoded.)
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Let’s look at all the talent UVA has gotten compared to the great dearth of talent Coach Self and KU have gotten. If you discount Cliff, KU’s average rankings of players drops all the way, gasp, to 47! Compared to UVA’s average player ranking of 92.
Now lets take a look at front court rankings. As you will see, KU leads over UVA in this category too, 86 vs 110.
Okay. UVA’s strength of schedule sourced from Ken Pom last year was 27 vs KU’s 2nd ranked schedule. UVA did win 5 additional games – all accounted for by difference in strength in schedule?
When we compare each Coach’s performance in the tournament last year (where it really matters) its a wash.
Your exuberance for Coach Self’s performance is understandable but overstated. I am not claiming Tony Bennett is in the same league of Self (we need to see 10+ years of continued performances).
Narrative is fun but much more substantial with data and facts.
I don’t have the time to parse the differences between the ACC and the Big12. Or the Big12’s overall poor performance in the NCAA tournament. I also did not account for Siva being a top talent (all though unranked) who KU was able to land over UVA.
When UVA lands a top 25 player let me know – compared to the six (6) KU has landed the past four years and the two (2) top 25 players they landed this year. Talent drought? Sure, compared to Duke or Kentucky but not UVA.
Draft choices?
UVA had one 1st round pick (and not a lottery pick at that) the last 4 years. And KU?
Next.
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Excellent take. Marshall had what I call the “perfect storm” of players; somehow he was able to put together classes with players that overachieved over several yeas and now, the last 3 are on their last year. How do you think he will do after the last players of the group leave after the upcoming season? I know they will continue to do well in the Missouri Valley but will they stay relevant at the National levels and will they continue to be a top 20 program?
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@JayHawkFanToo They’ll be consistently WSU. By that, I mean they will have an outstanding team for two or three years, then they will disappear for the next 30 years.
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Brilliant call on the “charisma factor” and right friggin’ on!
Amazing… coaches all work their tails off. But one is far below another because he can not chill out and learn how to keep his personal emotions under control when needed. Notice I said… when needed. Bill has let them go a few times, sometimes intentionally to get the attention of his players, like a few years back at the conference tourney when he broke something at the scorer’s table.
But there are plenty of stories about Marsha and his wife getting caught up in silly comments and actions. I understand, and respect, that Marsha came from a tough life to get where he is at. Bravo for him. But at a certain point he needs to stand back from himself and look for better pathways to get higher results. His coaching appears to be excellent, but some of his personal behaviors are holding him back.
I’ve always appreciated how Bill can keep his cool at the right time, and his ability to speak before a crowd and cameras is right on. He is one of the few coaches even Kansas has had that does not sometimes embarrass the fan base. Roy comes to mind, constantly making the wrong statement.
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An average is one way to look at it.
But an average kind of ignores entirely what the players were able to contribute due to circumstances. The circumstances that prevent players from contributing can include injury not requiring operation, but sufficient to impair them from reaching their potential for the portion of the season that you say “matters.” They can also include playing operable. They can also include players out for regulatory reasons. And they can include players that are for one reason or another unable to perform up to rotation standards and their ranking.
So: let’s sum the number of players Self had that were able to play to their rank during the period of the season that you call the part “that matters” and compare that with UVA, shall we?
Let’s drop out KU’s injured and operables that could not possibly have played to their ranks, regardless of what coach had coached them, shall we?
Selden, Ellis, Traylor, Lucas, Greene, Oubre.
Then lets drop the guys that played so poorly they weren’t in the rotation sufficiently to play up to any rank: Svi, Hunter, Cliff.
Let’s see. Who does that leave Self?
Ah, yes, Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, and, um, well, uh, that’s all.
So Bill gets a score of 2.
Now, I don’t know the injury and under performance figures for UVA, but I recall them having all but maybe one of their 8 guys 6-8 or higher available. That means TB had 7 long guys.
And let’s cut TB some slack here and say there was one more guy of some kind on the team that did not perform up to snuff.
That means TB 10 minus 2 =8.
Hmmmmm.
So Bill = 2.
TB = 8.
By the way, the higher score means you have more talent to work with than the guy with the lower score.
TB had vastly more talent to work with at the end of the season “when it matters.”
You lose.
Next.
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@mdm7eb said:
I am not claiming Tony Bennett is in the same league of Self (we need to see 10+ years of continued performances).
Well, of course, you aren’t doing that, because you would be contradicting the facts, wouldn’t you? Based on the data available it would be impossible to make a credible case that TB was better than Self now, or that he probably would be better at the end of both their careers.
Elementary.
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@mdm7eb said:
Narrative is fun but much more substantial with data and facts.
Yes, it is and I am having a helluva a lot of fun exposing your foray into stats, which reminds me of Twain’s “The Innocents Abroad”.
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@mdm7eb said:
I don’t have the time to parse the differences between the ACC and the Big12.
Why does your lack of time not surprise me?
This is kind of like playing “beat the beaver” at the video arcade with only one hole and one beaver.
Howling.
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@mdm7eb said:
Now lets take a look at front court rankings. As you will see, KU leads over UVA in this category too, 86 vs 110.
See the 8-2 score above.
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Of course last season was largely about injuries, one player too young to perform, and another player caught up in loan issues.
That isn’t even disputable.
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That’s the best you can do?
“Bill Self had more talent because I said so. Bill Self is the best coach ever because you know duh?!”
The nice thing with stats and I will admit averages have problems. But my argument still stands if you looked at median, max or even standard deviation.
Like I said, narrative is fun. It is easy to argue (and in your own mind win) when you get to make up the facts.
Data is pesky like that, it does not really let you pick and chose you either have it or you don’t.
I am actually sympathetic to your argument and you are maybe right (on the talent argument at the end of the season) – but it is just a wild assertion.
But isn’t that characteristic of most of the content you post on this site?
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Remove
wadded
panties
from
region
between
glutes.
Now that u r more comfortable and can cease swinging, you will have to tell me who taught you the thread destabilization tactic of quoting something I didn’t say and attributing it to me?
HOWLING!
Here is what you quoted me as saying that you made up and put in quotes.
“Bill Self had more talent because I said so. Bill Self is the best coach ever because you know duh?!”–mdm7eb
Next.
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And now you are, too!
Because I added a new post and deleted the one your post once spoke too!
