So Much Depends on Svi
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I think Wayne is on Self’s “hunch list.” He seems to get hunches about certain players and believes if he keeps dumping “belief” (PT) in that player, it will eventually pay off.
I hope his hunch pays off this year!
Typically, I’m not a believer in trying to help guys get their mojo, especially by supporting them with PT. I’d want guys that can get kicked and will jump right back up… so there is no need to put a pillow under them. Pillows only act as an enabler.
Wayne really needs to bring the goods this year. I’d let him know that and then back off. If he doesn’t produce I’d start cutting his minutes.
We will probably get a good idea of what Wayne will be like this year by his performance in November. We should notice an improvement in his handles and see that he has added some moves, increasing his tool box. We should see him with relentless energy and staying motivated in games 100% of the time. That is what I am EXPECTING from Wayne. He should have no more freshman jitters or subordinate role ideas left in his body. It’s time he stood up in a leadership role.
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Devonte is 6’2" and when you see him next to Mason he is a good 3"-4" taller. He has decent height to be a NBA PG and in college he could easily play SG as well; he is the only player in the team, IMHO, that has shown he can create his own outside shot. Svi on the other hand is 6’8" and unless he develops Magic-like skills, probably too tall to play PG and he is better suited to play either SG or more likely the SF.
Vick is an interesting case. While his natural position is SG, he appears to have the tools to play PG and also the height (?) and shot to play SF. He could be a player that can be used on various lineups at various positions; the type of versatility Coach Self loves.
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I want Wayne to play the 3, even though it probably won’t happen. A lineup of Devonte at the point, Frank at the 2, Wayne at the 3, Perry and Diallo would suit me just fine. We have such a deep bench we could sub in and out, so not worried about our “little” guards as much. We could still see a Selden breakout at the 2. Many of us last year ( myself included ), called for Frank to lose time to Devonte in the preseason, which turned out to be the wrong call. I just hope he works on his ball handling, and decision making, and I would prefer if we are getting pressed, he lets Frank/Devonte bring the ball up. We’ve seen the flashes of the great in the Florida and the Baylor games, and the games where he can’t seem to wait to commit a turnover, so maybe we have a budding Tyshawn in mental acuity on our hands. ( the last line is meant out of love from a fan who was taught a great deal of patience from Tyshawn).
As for Svi, I have still been visualizing him as a scared freshman, not as an experienced veteran having added 15 lbs of muscle, and an 18 year’s old passion to get better. So, I’ve been selling him a little short. So, like Scully and Mulder, I want to believe.
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@REHawk Agreed. With the WUGs, it’ll give CS and kids some chances to work on new things. Quite possibly to push tempo and incorporate the trey so as not to be such foolish metal.
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““I think any time you force yourself to play with a short clock, it definitely adds to aggressiveness and adds to guys going and making plays on their own, which sometimes we can get a little stale doing that,” Self said. “I’m excited about us experimenting as coaches. I’m excited about the clock forcing us to play faster and doing some different things defensively. I think it’ll be very good for us moving forward.””
This is the reason I’ve been excited for a 30-second shot clock! I want to see urgency in our offense. And I want to see guys forced into creating for themselves.
I want to see a combination of team offense and guys creating for themselves. That is the secret sauce to winning at any level!
I want to believe what CS said above. I want to believe. I just hope he means it.
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@ParisHawk I think Graham is at least 6’1, if not 6’2. I was walking around the practice court with him, and he was in our group along with Selden and Evan Manning (as the 2 “water boys”). (I’m 6’0", and definitely was not looking down at Graham ever). Just my observation, fwiw, standing next to the guy.
Also, 20% of males will grow a bit more between the ages of 18-20, and I recall EJ came as a 6’2 guard, then grew to 6’4. It does happen occasionally, and I hope it happens to KU guys. I don’t like the “KU inch” thing, so I’d like for our guys to be truly the size they are listed. At least Devonte is.
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Good info. What is your impression about Mason’s height? I know KU lists him as 5’-11" but when standing next to other players like Davonte, he seems closer to 5-‘9" than 5’-11".
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@JayHawkFanToo Mason was only in AFH 1 day shooting 3s (effortlessly), so didn’t get too close to him to judge accurately. One thing about Mason, is when he threw down an alley oop dunk, and got his elbow as high as the rim (2014 preseason game), I knew he had more athleticism and hops than Sherron did…which is a supreme compliment to Mason. Now add the smarts that experience does, and its all good regarding Frank Mason. Sherron is 5’10" (I’ve met him in person), and I think Mason is the same, but this is just from photos, etc…
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@ralster anything about Cliff?
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My quiet feeling is that there is a lot of offensive firepower on this team, that is also developed and experienced, in positions 1, 2, 3, 4. The 5 position remains a question mark, but Self will have some options. Putting a top-50 guy like Mickelson as a 5, battling for mpg with Lucas, should yield a serviceable 5, or at least 5-by-committee. Personally, each has different attributes. I want to see Withey-style rim protection, we need that.
Anything that the 2 incoming 6’9 Mickey D’s give us will be gravy, and just consider them the CliffReplacementCommittee, is all. They do have talent, but they will be damn raw in this system. Pretty much like Darrell Arthur was as a frosh. Foul-fest. Never put too much stock in frosh in this system. They are gravy only, never cornerstones. Wiggins actually had to cornerstone the identity-less WiggyHawks, and that season ended without any real surprise.
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@JayHawkFanToo and @ralster FWIW, I know somebody who has stood next to Mason many times. I am somewhere around 5’-8" to 5’-9" without shoes and the other person is 6’ when I am standing by him. He said Frank is just a little shorter than him and not much. So I would say with confidence that he is 5’-10" to 5’-11".
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@jayhawkbychoice you guessed it, since I never got close enough to Mason to judge, cant really offer an accurate judgement. As mentioned, my guess is as good as your’s/anybody’s since Im only looking at pictures (regarding Frank…).
Hehe, maybe this season’s end (or next’s) Frank can sign a “meaningful” autograph for KU people in-person, and we can size him up then…
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@ralster I can’t give up my source, but he’s very reliable. He showed me with his hand on his forehead where Frank is to him. Even in my work boots he says Frank is way taller than me. Very reliable! Except at getting me tickets, lol.
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Of course we know that Sherron has a condition that makes it very difficult if not impossible to keep his weight down. Can you image the insane athleticism he would have had playing 30 pounds lighter?
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Sherron is one of my all time favorite Jayhawks, period. Frankly, he+Mario delivered that Miracle 3, as we credit the assist on a timely shot as well as the shot itself. Sherron’s own 3 moments earlier is equally huge, and he was assisted on that by none other than Russell Robinson. What guard play!
Until a team proves better, the 2008 Jayhawks define Self’s best team ever. Each guy on that team was a key piece. All 8 or 9 of them, which is a perfect way to put it. Getting the ultimate W matters.
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@drgnslayr Wayne had his minutes trimmed some toward the end of last year. When Self played both Devonte and Frank he substituted Devonte for Wayne. This seemed to be particularly true late in the second half of games.
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@sfbahawk Ball handling, ball protection, and aggression. Wayne needs to watch film of DWade, who handles the ball, and rarely turns it over. If Marcus Smart wasn’t a head case, he was a good example of an NBA-sized guard. Hard to stop 220lbs. Wayne’s got a chance to be really special now…
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@drgnslayr Agreed!! Its not like CS has to hold his cards close right now. They aren’t hiding a game plan from an opponent yet. Im psyched to see what new sets they will run!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I haven’t heard anything about Cliff, other than what media has reported. He is gone because they ruled him ineligible, finally. Otherwise, he had said he would have come back for Yr2, which would have been best for all parties. I wish him well.
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I think the faster shot clock (24min WUG) and 30sec NCAA, will help the defense, as its simply easier to guard intensely for fewer seconds. It was maddening to see great D for 33sec, then give up a bucket on a buzzer beater in the last 2sec!
Also, the offense will favor experienced players running the sets. Taking a frosh-heavy squad into a 24sec shot clock type of game, only favors the simplistic offensive sets. Now, KY should be fine with 24sec shot clock. Hoiberg’s offense would seemingly be unaffected, but he is gone, and now the opposition has to speed up, so that negates some of IowaState’s attempts-on-goal advantage, which could have helped mask some of their poor or avg-shooting nights. So, to spin it another way: What is IowaState going to do now? Hoiberg gone, and their possession-advantage now diminished…
And I’m sorry, I’m just not sold on Shaka Smart’s “greatness”, so I have little fear of Tx Longhorns.
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I don’t know that I’d limit my projections of an experienced Jayhawk roster to the play of any 1 player? Svi will be great, and the NBA scouts will drool over him, and…yes: he will be yet another NBA lotto pick with a hard-to-pronounce-foreign-name…but he is just 1 guy. Wiggins couldn’t carry KU alone, nor could Oubre, McLemore, Henry, Marcus Morris…About the closest we came to having a 1man domination was Thomas Robinson, although he had high quality help from Withey and EJ and Tyshawn, and to a lesser extent, Releford. Even Sherron Collins couldn’t do it alone. Or maybe he could have, but was only 80% with a pulled groin vs UNI…
Svi will be awesome, could make us better, and his biggest impact would be IF Self starts him at the 3wing. Why the 3? Because he can rebound. His putbacks around the rim for a mere 17yr old amongst the trees was actually breathtaking. Plus, he can attack better than Oubre. Which allows attention to shift off Wayne/Devonte/Frank, thus creating a 4-headed monster (count Perry at the 4). Similar to 2008, when we could hurt you from all 5 or 4 outta 5 positions…And there is no drop off when you bring Greene or Lucas/Hunter off the bench, or even Bragg/Diallo, depending on who can actually be productive early…
This will be a high-flying show. Svi will be but a part of the overall machine. Every man do their job.
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Svi is crucial not because he needs to carry the team, but because the team has a huge hole at 3 if he cannot just be a 12/4 guy and be +3 to +5 on the opposing 3, plus help the short guards. Rush, Xavier, Wigs, Oubre, and Travis achieved the +3 to +5 most games; this is crucial in Self ball, because the opposing team’s best player is frequently a 3, and to be a defense driven team, KU has to hold the edge over the three most games. Scoring 25-40 points is just window dressing for draft branding in Self Ball. The key always is the net advantage in scoring. Self only needs 12-14 ppg from any good defender that can hold his man to 8-11 ppg.
But Self Ball HAS to have this +3 to +5 edge at 3, or the guard and big play, even when good on the Sherron/cole teams, is headed toward mid 20 win seasons. The real fulcrum of Self Ball is the 3. He can massage around any weakness, because he is a wily cat, but he can’t produce dominant teams without the dominant 3.
At the same time, a dominant 3 is not enough. He has to have good back court and front court players, too. But it’s easier to bob and weave past occasional mismatches in front and back court than at the 3. In the high-low, there are two guards and two bigs. These allow re routing front, or back court play to avoid full stop. But there is only one 3. The two wings really are NOT interchangeable on defense. Self recruits dominant 3s for a reason. Losing Jaylen Brown was HUGE, because it made Svi, or Brannen stepping up crucial. And Brannen is odds on for a MEDRED.
So Svi is SOOOOOOOOOO crucial.
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@jaybate-1.0 I agree with the logic in your post but I’m not sure Svi, physically matured or not, is the missing link to this team reaching our expectations of them playing at a high level of basketball The last two seasons certainly didn’t reach my expectations for a Bill Self team. I’ve been wanting to post about this for a while now but really didn’t know how to say what I see with this group of guys the last couple years. I’ll probably get blasted for some of this by members of this site but here it goes.
I’ve been watching games from the 06-08 seasons to get an idea of how a group of guys should progress through a few years. It seems to me that physical maturity has little to do with it when compared to the mental maturity.
I’m convinced that this group won’t meet any expectation until they have a true “coach on the floor” leader. Someone with knowledge of how to play the game, how to run the system Someone who knows, not only their job in the system, but everyone else’s too. Someone who can direct the other players into proper position. Someone who can read the other teams offense and defense and call the right play without having to look over to the bench, and can keep coaching and keep the other players in the loop during the game. The 08 team had 3 of those guys, this team has none. I do think the jury is still out on Graham and Svi. But our upper classmen, while I’m hopeful, I don’t see it. Go back and watch the old games, every stoppage of play RussRub, Mario, Sherron would be talking and dissecting something going on in the game. Then one would go tell the others what was going on and the other would go tell coaching staff what was going on. Many times you can see one of them call for the ball, take it back up top, and call another play after seeing something wasn’t working or after seeing something to take advantage of. They would hold the ball communicate to the other the play and what to do, even pointing and motioning them into position. Among the three of them, they could just look at each other know what to do. Our guys now do none of that. Our senior leader, Perry, seems to have taken a vow of silence or something. Most of our guys look like they don’t know what they are supposed to do, never mind everyone else.
I recall somewhere I read (might have been here or some of you from the other site) that the 08 team had like 93 plays at their disposal and that RussRob, Mario, and Sherron had the freedom to call any play they needed to for a given situation! Now that’s a soph, 2 jr’s (if you count BRush) and a senior. Do any of you really think that our team now knows 93 plays? 45? 30? Frank, Wayne, Devonte, and Greene(?), that’s 3 Jr’s and Soph.
You mentioned having productive bigs, I contend that if the 08 guards had Lucas and Mickleson, that those guards would make them productive bigs because of their passing ability, play making, on floor coaching and positioning, and great defensive work. Probably not to the extent Shady was at taking over games from time to time, but then again…:)
On the do everything 3, no doubt BRush was a special player. But in one of the 08 tournament games, there was about 5 possessions where BRush took the outlet pass and pushed the ball up the floor. Crossing the half court line, he was at the top of the key, RussRob went one side and Sherron went the other. So BRush was playing the “1” and Sherron was playing the “3” on that possession, and Sherron looked more like a “6’-7” 3" than Oubre did most of last season!
But it didn’t matter anyway, after the ball reversed to the second and third side everyone had rotated through all three guard spots anyway. There has been a lot of talk about who should play the 1,2,3,4,5 and who backs up who. The 08 team had only 2 positions, guard and big! The only difference was which side of the ball you’re on. When the ball is on one side of the floor the 5 is low and the 4 is high, then on the other side the 5 goes high and 4 goes low, so it doesn’t matter. Now of course, different players could bring different skills to each spot on the floor. For example, Shady would take the 15 footer, but Sasha might be looking to pass from that spot because there are better shots for the team to take than that one. But Sasha still rotated into and out of that spot to make the defense have to move, so he had to know how and what to do at each position. Same thing with the guards! I saw BRush draining 3’s off the “elevator play” and he was a so called “3”, and we saw the same thing with BMac and he was a “2”. It just don’t matter, you could run the play for both of them in the same game. They either switch sides for that possession or just run the play the other direction. I’m sure some guys like one side of the floor better than the other and they can go to their “spot” when walking the ball up. But when they pushed the tempo they just went to the closest wing or brought the ball up. They either get a good quick shot, or rotate in and out of their spot as the ball is reversed. This idea that Selden just can’t handle switching from a “2” to a “3” is ridiculous. What’s the difference? What, one goes for a rebound and one gets back on defense? That’s a tough one to figure out! He don’t even have to change sides of the floor, just change the number next to his name from a “2” to a “3”, it doesn’t matter. Someone mentioned that if we go small, then we lose the rebounding from the “3” spot. Wasn’t Frank our leading rebounder for much of last season? Just pencil a “3” next to his name when the ball goes up and the other can get back on defense since he can rebound better anyway. Another thing, not every position has it’s own backup, right? Self usually plays 5 guards and in crunch time only 4. That means someone has to learn to play more than one numbered position, right? I see these projected lineups for next year, and if Mason and Graham can both play the “1” or “2”, then why in the world can’t Selden play the “2” or “3”? There just isn’t that much difference. Self needs four guys who can at least half a$$ handle the ball enough to rotate through the entire play. Oh, on a side note, the 08 guys actually ran the weave effectively…well sometimes. It was cool to see them do though. They would change tempo, hesitate, cut it off short, and really pinch the perimeter defenders together at the top of the key. When they got them all bunched up, one wouldn’t come to meet the ball and instead get a pass out to the wing and have a free lane to the paint. Cool to see work. That was probably the last time, lol.One last issue, the non-business like culture of this team. ralster mentioned in a post above the two 3’s that Mario and Sherron hit in the title game. Go watch that and look at the reactions on their faces, and look at the bench’s reaction. Mario and Sherron just looked like that’s what they’re supposed to do, that’s all. Got back on defense and kept playing. The bench, the players stood up and pumped a fist in the air or clapped, and then sat down. The coaches, they clapped and then went back to business. Self stood up to start barking out orders for the defense. But that’s it. Same reactions on several Shady and Sasha lob dunks. Now of course they celebrated and chest bumped with their teammates at time outs or the locker room but not on the floor. But you watch this year, the first 3 Greene hits against Fort Hayes State, he will be jogging back down the floor making gestures like he did something special. Or the first ally oop someone will flex and scream and pretend they are tearing off their shirt. And on the bench, all the players will be falling out of their chairs, acting like they are going to run out on the floor. And there will be Snacks acting like a kids with them. That nonsense is just as bad as Adams eating a fake bowl of cereal…(I do have to admit, that’s the goofiest thing I’ve ever seen :)) But seriously, act like you’ve been here before. Did they practice those shots and plays? Aren’t they suppose to go in? And Snacks doing it…ridiculous.
To finish up, I want to say, that I love our players. Great characters, fun to watch them learn and go through the ups and downs of each season. I just don’t expect to see them execute the way the 06-08 teams did. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think so. Does this mean they can’t win a championship? Of course not! A lot of it depends on match ups and having things fall the right way. It’s just the basketball playing won’t be a thing of beauty like it was in 08. Everybody go back and watch those games. It’s amazing the difference.
Rock Chalk!
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I quite agree this team hasn’t a prayer of being as good as the 08 team; that team was full of great mature players good enough to have decent pro careers. This team cannot hope to equal it, nor likely will any future KU team. The 08 team was from another era when talented experienced teams were still possible, but even then improbable.
But this team has to have Svi be a dominant 3 to be even a very good team in this new era. Svi is crucial.
Fortunately for this team, it will never meet a team as good as the 08 team this season. So if Svi developed rapidly, it could at least back into a FF the way MSU did. Probably couldn’t beat a stack, but it could get to a FF.
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@jayhawkbychoice said:
@jaybate-1.0 I agree with the logic in your post but I’m not sure Svi, physically matured or not, is the missing link to this team reaching our expectations of them playing at a high level of basketball The last two seasons certainly didn’t reach my expectations for a Bill Self team. I’ve been wanting to post about this for a while now but really didn’t know how to say what I see with this group of guys the last couple years. I’ll probably get blasted for some of this by members of this site but here it goes.
I’ve been watching games from the 06-08 seasons to get an idea of how a group of guys should progress through a few years. It seems to me that physical maturity has little to do with it when compared to the mental maturity.
I’m convinced that this group won’t meet any expectation until they have a true “coach on the floor” leader. Someone with knowledge of how to play the game, how to run the system Someone who knows, not only their job in the system, but everyone else’s too. Someone who can direct the other players into proper position. Someone who can read the other teams offense and defense and call the right play without having to look over to the bench, and can keep coaching and keep the other players in the loop during the game. The 08 team had 3 of those guys, this team has none. I do think the jury is still out on Graham and Svi. But our upper classmen, while I’m hopeful, I don’t see it. Go back and watch the old games, every stoppage of play RussRub, Mario, Sherron would be talking and dissecting something going on in the game. Then one would go tell the others what was going on and the other would go tell coaching staff what was going on. Many times you can see one of them call for the ball, take it back up top, and call another play after seeing something wasn’t working or after seeing something to take advantage of. They would hold the ball communicate to the other the play and what to do, even pointing and motioning them into position. Among the three of them, they could just look at each other know what to do. Our guys now do none of that. Our senior leader, Perry, seems to have taken a vow of silence or something. Most of our guys look like they don’t know what they are supposed to do, never mind everyone else.
I recall somewhere I read (might have been here or some of you from the other site) that the 08 team had like 93 plays at their disposal and that RussRob, Mario, and Sherron had the freedom to call any play they needed to for a given situation! Now that’s a soph, 2 jr’s (if you count BRush) and a senior. Do any of you really think that our team now knows 93 plays? 45? 30? Frank, Wayne, Devonte, and Greene(?), that’s 3 Jr’s and Soph.
You mentioned having productive bigs, I contend that if the 08 guards had Lucas and Mickleson, that those guards would make them productive bigs because of their passing ability, play making, on floor coaching and positioning, and great defensive work. Probably not to the extent Shady was at taking over games from time to time, but then again…:)
On the do everything 3, no doubt BRush was a special player. But in one of the 08 tournament games, there was about 5 possessions where BRush took the outlet pass and pushed the ball up the floor. Crossing the half court line, he was at the top of the key, RussRob went one side and Sherron went the other. So BRush was playing the “1” and Sherron was playing the “3” on that possession, and Sherron looked more like a “6’-7” 3" than Oubre did most of last season!
But it didn’t matter anyway, after the ball reversed to the second and third side everyone had rotated through all three guard spots anyway. There has been a lot of talk about who should play the 1,2,3,4,5 and who backs up who. The 08 team had only 2 positions, guard and big! The only difference was which side of the ball you’re on. When the ball is on one side of the floor the 5 is low and the 4 is high, then on the other side the 5 goes high and 4 goes low, so it doesn’t matter. Now of course, different players could bring different skills to each spot on the floor. For example, Shady would take the 15 footer, but Sasha might be looking to pass from that spot because there are better shots for the team to take than that one. But Sasha still rotated into and out of that spot to make the defense have to move, so he had to know how and what to do at each position. Same thing with the guards! I saw BRush draining 3’s off the “elevator play” and he was a so called “3”, and we saw the same thing with BMac and he was a “2”. It just don’t matter, you could run the play for both of them in the same game. They either switch sides for that possession or just run the play the other direction. I’m sure some guys like one side of the floor better than the other and they can go to their “spot” when walking the ball up. But when they pushed the tempo they just went to the closest wing or brought the ball up. They either get a good quick shot, or rotate in and out of their spot as the ball is reversed. This idea that Selden just can’t handle switching from a “2” to a “3” is ridiculous. What’s the difference? What, one goes for a rebound and one gets back on defense? That’s a tough one to figure out! He don’t even have to change sides of the floor, just change the number next to his name from a “2” to a “3”, it doesn’t matter. Someone mentioned that if we go small, then we lose the rebounding from the “3” spot. Wasn’t Frank our leading rebounder for much of last season? Just pencil a “3” next to his name when the ball goes up and the other can get back on defense since he can rebound better anyway. Another thing, not every position has it’s own backup, right? Self usually plays 5 guards and in crunch time only 4. That means someone has to learn to play more than one numbered position, right? I see these projected lineups for next year, and if Mason and Graham can both play the “1” or “2”, then why in the world can’t Selden play the “2” or “3”? There just isn’t that much difference. Self needs four guys who can at least half a$$ handle the ball enough to rotate through the entire play. Oh, on a side note, the 08 guys actually ran the weave effectively…well sometimes. It was cool to see them do though. They would change tempo, hesitate, cut it off short, and really pinch the perimeter defenders together at the top of the key. When they got them all bunched up, one wouldn’t come to meet the ball and instead get a pass out to the wing and have a free lane to the paint. Cool to see work. That was probably the last time, lol.One last issue, the non-business like culture of this team. ralster mentioned in a post above the two 3’s that Mario and Sherron hit in the title game. Go watch that and look at the reactions on their faces, and look at the bench’s reaction. Mario and Sherron just looked like that’s what they’re supposed to do, that’s all. Got back on defense and kept playing. The bench, the players stood up and pumped a fist in the air or clapped, and then sat down. The coaches, they clapped and then went back to business. Self stood up to start barking out orders for the defense. But that’s it. Same reactions on several Shady and Sasha lob dunks. Now of course they celebrated and chest bumped with their teammates at time outs or the locker room but not on the floor. But you watch this year, the first 3 Greene hits against Fort Hayes State, he will be jogging back down the floor making gestures like he did something special. Or the first ally oop someone will flex and scream and pretend they are tearing off their shirt. And on the bench, all the players will be falling out of their chairs, acting like they are going to run out on the floor. And there will be Snacks acting like a kids with them. That nonsense is just as bad as Adams eating a fake bowl of cereal…(I do have to admit, that’s the goofiest thing I’ve ever seen :)) But seriously, act like you’ve been here before. Did they practice those shots and plays? Aren’t they suppose to go in? And Snacks doing it…ridiculous.
To finish up, I want to say, that I love our players. Great characters, fun to watch them learn and go through the ups and downs of each season. I just don’t expect to see them execute the way the 06-08 teams did. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think so. Does this mean they can’t win a championship? Of course not! A lot of it depends on match ups and having things fall the right way. It’s just the basketball playing won’t be a thing of beauty like it was in 08. Everybody go back and watch those games. It’s amazing the difference.
Rock Chalk!
Dude.
This post length puts you in rare company. ( this company I don’t come close to btw.)
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@jayhawkbychoice Thought yours was a great post. You described what made the 08 squad so special: experience! They knew what to do, and had plenty of reps to do it reliably. As Self described them after the NC win: they were incredibly “efficient”.
As we are painfully aware, in this system, it doesn’t matter if your name is Wiggins or McLemore or Rush or Arthur or Collins: you wont/cant look as good in Yr1 as you naturally will in Yr2, then in Yr3. I know I’m stating the obvious there, but good execution is more noticeable by its absence in Self’s system, compared to other systems, such as Calipari’s.
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But the key point is in this era no one else can be as good in any other system either. Even the great stacks are shadows of the 08 team. 2012 UK did not play dribble drive as well as the 08 Memphis team did. The 2012 UK team could barely beat a 2012 KU team that had zero Mickey Ds.
The game has changed.
It’s no longer even just about a few OADs.
It’s about the stacks.
And Self only signed 1 OAD and not for lack of trying to sign more.
The asymmetric talent distribution system finally took its full toll.
He is fighting all the way.
He cannot even afford to bring his best coaching staff to WUG. He has to keep them recruiting.
WUG turned out to be anything but a recruiting nugget.
Self is increasingly a great general caught on the side with inadequate logistics. He keeps finding ways to win battles and to save his out-talented army with skillful tactics and strategic advances to the rear, but the tide of the war is gradually cornering him. His method since 2012 has apparently been to play for time with as many OADs as Adidas lesser conveyor could provide and hope the powers that be eventually altered the system to be more equitable, but it hasn’t happened. Instead the stacks spread and the clock was shortened to enhance the advantage of the stacks even further.
The situation is serious.
I believe young Brad Stephens read the writing on the wall and left the college game early.
I believe Donovan fought longer but finally gave up waiting, too.
Pitino broke radio silence about the asymmetry, so we know it’s real.
Coach K apparently quit trying to fix things and appeared to game the situation to set his total w record and rack up a few more rings. He appeared to betray the right way guys he once appeared the leader of.
Other right way guys, like Williams, are behind circled wagons, or being routed on all fronts.
The System appears even beginning to clear its wake of those it used expediently early on its own side, like Cal.
To jump shift metaphors, this increasingly appears like @drgnslayr 's basketball Chicago.
Capone is mayor.
Self and his Untouchables are nearly alone.
The going just got tougher.
Basic gangland strategy suggests the wrong way types must want him bad.
To jump shift metaphors again, the revolt of the gladiatorial right way coaches is in disarray, betrayed apparently by one of its own in Durham, but crushed as all armies eventually are, not by betrayal, but by asymmetric logistics.
How long will it be before we hear the call: who is Spartacus?
Or maybe the sound of a cavalry coming?
As usual in regime change, It all depends on who’s side Rome is really on this time.
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@jayhawkbychoice Very nice post. The " eating the imaginary cereal" line made me laugh, as I’ve wondered if anyone else thought it looked as weird as I had. Guess that answers it for me. I have been hoping Wayne goes to the 3. and you’ve given me hope the dream isn’t dead.
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Can’t say who is going to do what, because I just don’t know. What I do know is this is a Bill Self team loaded with experienced Seniors, Juniors, and Sophomores. It’s just the way he likes it. Should be a fun year.
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@KansasComet where have u been? Glad u r back!!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I always take a vacation this time of year.
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@KansasComet sounds good!
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I think college basketball has, largely, become a game for “stacked” teams. It is the easy way to at least be competitive every year.
But I think we can be just as competitive with guys that are right below OAD status that stick around for a year or two more. And perhaps sprinkle in the OAD here and there. Of course… you can’t really tell who will be OAD. People were talking like Selden would be in that group.
I just hope Self never goes for a complete starting team of OADs. It’s like watching flunky ball with a bunch of footers. Games are boring with too much young talent that is green behind the ears.
It really is about the fan experience. More knowledgeable fans want to see the entire game executed well. Inexperienced fans just want to see a few show dunks. Experienced fans like to see those, too… but the uber dunks should be the exclamation point to a well-executed play.
I am very excited for this year. I’m so glad we are no longer “one of the youngest teams in college basketball.” The past two years have had moments of excitement, blended in with some mediocre Kansas basketball. It all starts with experience at PG. Someone has to lead. We haven’t had leadership in quite a while. Maybe Sherron was our last guy to take on the role? Maybe TT in his senior year?
I think what Self has done by bringing in Moore is shear genius on his part. A big “thank you” goes out to Larry Brown for remaining a Jayhawk!
I’m starting to think we are going to see a completely different Frank Mason this year! He is going to soak up the experience playing with Moore and we will all gain a huge benefit from this experience!
Then we have Devonte in the shadows, ready to burst into the spotlight!
@jaybate-1.0 … embrace these years that we don’t have a complete stack! Embrace these years that Self actually has to coach up players in order to win. We still have legitimate Jayhawk basketball. And we are not living strictly off the OADs. I just hope it stays like this in Jayhawkland. I would hate to become another Kentucky!
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@JayhawkRock78 Sorry, I haven’t been able to post much the last couple months, but have been reading and following everyone daily. I had a lot to get off my mind, lol.
It’s not the length of the post, it’s the knowledge and logic and entertainment which it contains. And that sir, puts you in the rare company of those who provide that here. That’s why I read this site everyday.
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You know… it really isn’t about the stacks. It is about finding that one player above the rest. Every year (or two) a single player stands out as completely dominant and able to take over a game.
We faced that experience in 2012. The unibrow was the overwhelming difference for Kentucky. Kentucky this past year did not have that single dominant player.
Who will it be for this coming year?
I know I’m focused on Ben Simmons at LSU. That dude can play!
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Somehow I had missed your lengthy post until now. Great job!
I think sometimes us fans make a mistake and we put one of our championship teams up on a pedestal and then we like to compare all other teams against them. The thought is that this team is what it takes to win.
Ever since 2008, if you look at all the teams that won March Madness, I can’t think of one of those teams that played anything like our 2008 team. I recently went back and watched some of the 2008 team games and I have to admit that it helped remove some of the crimson/blue from my glasses. When I think back, I don’t think that team reached near their execution capacity. We were good. And we were deep. And we were the stacked team that year. No way you can compare Memphis to us in talent depth. We often got loose with the ball with TOs. We often had fragmented offensive possessions. Sometimes our defense broke down. Seriously, we should have ran Memphis out of the gym.
Had Chalmers not hit that shot, we would all have a completely different view of that 2008 team. They did have the right pieces… but there were often execution problems. They achieved… but I’m no longer calling them a team that overachieved. I’ll save that for our 2012 squad… or Danny and the Miracles.
What we need is our kids to step up. It really is about who can man up quickly. Put everything that isn’t vital to Kansas basketball down and focus on ball for the coming year (BTW: academics is part of Kansas basketball!). Someone is going to have to lead.
I totally understand what you were saying when you said back in 2008 Kansas had guards and post players. The only difference was the side… left or right. I agree. That was back when Self looked at basketball in a simpler way. He drew a line down the center and he split the game into a game of symmetric basketball. It worked then. But… we were the dominant team that year. We were not only stacked, but experienced. We should have won it all, almost regardless what we ran.
I believe Self has advanced his coaching significantly since 2008. And though many of us would like to see him adjust his game faster… he does seem to do it on his clock, and that will have to work for us. At least he has made changes to his game. I do believe Self has been helped more by having The Mayor in the league than what any other coach in the league received from this experience. Self has added in several things that don’t quite look so symmetric. Twists that are individualized towards the tool box of each player.
And though we still hear phrases like “utility guard” out of Self, he is starting to realize that all guards are not created equal. He realizes now that he must create specific situations to take advantage of the individual skills of his players. Same for in the post. Perry will never be a great “back to the basket” post player. Jamari will never even be close to being able to play with his back to the basket… but he is very capable of using his foot speed to create a slashing post basket.
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Agree mature teams are more gratifying (and must be as savor ex for their rarity) and our green bigs Diallo and Bragg will be the weak links, rather than the strengths.
But Kaminski and UW proved that a dominant player cannot get it done now without a stack; that’s the sad truth.
Dominant player + stack = recipe for ring in the age of stacks.
Simmons plus the stack at LSU Should win the ring, if Jones can coach a lick.
But Stumpy proved you can’t win with a stack and a Dom, if you are an average coach still leArning.
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@ralster Exactly, right. The team efficiency, when applied to a graph, should be a line trending upward as the years go by. This season our core guys are all Jr’s and Sr’s, many of whom have started or played big minutes the past two seasons. Do you think their efficiency is trending upward? How does the trajectory of that trend line compare to the other good teams of the past?
I mean we’re talking all summer about hiding our 6’-5" Jr., who has started every game since he’s been here, on offense because we know there are better options but Self will probably still play him. And this is what really gets me, he was higher ranked coming out of high school than anyone on the 08 team! So what’s going on here? Is it lack of coaching? There was a lot of talk 2 seasons ago about dumbing down the playbook because we were so young. Has the dumbed down playbook just reduced the “efficiency trajectory”, or will the players that stay ever catch up? Are the players we have capable of catching up? And if not, why recruit them?
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“But Kaminski and UW proved that a dominant player cannot get it done now without a stack; that’s the sad truth.”
Wisconsin really blew that game. There were moments when they didn’t play like a senior team.
I’ve become a big Badger fan… but Frank didn’t take care of business. Okafor should have never been even a tiny presence in this game. Frank should have continued to force the fouls, but he backed off. Some say they just didn’t have the focus after beating Kentucky.
Maybe they were tired… or whatever. They seemed to be most focused on coming to this tournament to beat Kentucky rather than walk with the trophy.
I know Ratface impacted the officiating in the second half. But still, UW was the superior team with the experience and they seemed to get out-hustled in the second half. They lost their mojo.
UCONN the year before did it without any kind of stack, against a totally stacked UK…
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@KansasComet Your right, it SHOULD be a fun year. But…if it’s true that the 08 team knew 93 plays, or options on plays, and had the efficiency to beat a stacked Memphis; does this years team give any indication that they could even run say, 30 plays efficiently? I hope so but I’m not holding my breath.
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I didn’t want complicate the thread, but the refs apparently selected the winner of all FINAL FOUR games.
This did not appear to be a remotely legit Final Four, so In a way neither of our assertions matter.
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Poor Selden. Where’s the love?
Geez guys. So he didn’t quite live up to the OAD expectations? It happens. He still wasn’t bad. He played pretty good defense, and his freshman numbers weren’t that bad. Yes his sophomore season was far from stellar. But maybe it was the Sophomore Jinx. Or maybe he was trying to hard. I know some mocked and commented on some of his missed dunks. Yet I remember him trying to make some dunks that most guys could only dream about. Not making accuses but I think he was trying to hard. Also last year he was really bulked up. Hudy really worked him over. Maybe just maybe he needed an adjustment period?
Either way I think Selden will be Golden this year.
SVI is the mystery card as @jaybate-1.0 pointed out. I would love to say he’ll be the man and I do believe he will be the man. Yet there are ??? marks that not even I can ignore. However I’m rolling the dice here. I’m all in. This KU team is going to be tough, and with a little luck they’ll be knocking on the door of greatness. And I’m not just talking about a NC. Yes dare I say undefeated? I know crazy talk but you know what I looked in the mirror today and said to myself your crazy. My daughter confirmed my assumptions at the breakfast table.
No all kidding aside. I feel with the WUG and all those extra practice giving KU a head start over everybody else will give the two pieces KU really needs extra time to develop. Bragg and Diallo. Last year’s team less than stellar performance (us KU fans are so spoiled) wasn’t because of guard play. If you know what I mean? If my assumptions and dreams are to be correct. Not only does Diallo need to step in a hurry, but so does Bragg.
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@DoubleDD smart daughter!!
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@drgnslayr I always thought that we win that game if we would have forced unibrow to beat us alone. Much like we did against Durant and Beasley in 07-08. Unibrow’s passing ability out of double teams is what got us so far behind. We could locked down everyone else and forced unibrow to score 40 (which he never had) over a true 7’ footer playing him straight up (which he had never faced before). Instead we let Jones and Lamb beat us.
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Good idea.
My thoughts were to feed the low post and force contact and draw fouls. What made the unibrow so effective on defense was the long space he could make up to contest a shot and without fouling. Get in the low post and take shots into his body and see how he would have done. Lots and lots of shot fakes and motion fakes. Force the contact, even if we lose a guy or two, it was a trade worth making.
This is what Wisconsin failed it. Okafor should have had no presence in that game. Frank backed off and Okafor was able to return and have an impact.
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@drgnslayr Yeah, we just didn’t have the post depth that year. That was probably the reason for all the double teaming early in that game. In 08 we had 4 quality bigs and 20 fouls to beat the hell out of Hansbrough.
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I luv Wayne and I suspect he will improve to an all league first team guy.
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@jaybate-1.0 I believe you’re right on. The shoeco/agent/runner complex has the ability to stack anywhere it wants to. And when looking at Pitino’s comments, it seems that the NCAA can allow or disallow this to happen and also use this power to their advantage. I see the NCAA as having a Rahm Emanuel/Cass Sunstein like attitude toward this by, “never let a good crisis go to waste”. It appears the NCAA has taken the opinion that “the enemy or your enemy is your friend”, and has joined in the asymmetric warfare being raged against right way programs; and so is only ok with shacking in certain geographical/population center locations. We have stacks in the east (Duke), southeast (KY, and switching over to LSU), and the west (Cal). The only major population center in the central time zone is Texas. The recent regime change tactics were a clear signal to Shaka to go along with the powers that be to stay with the program, because the next stacking will be allowed to happen in central time zone Texas. Alford better get the memo to, UCLA is ripe for stacking and bringing viewership to the NCAA. If the NCAA can control stacking to population centers, then they can back off the bias refs, which is really being exposed and talked about after last years final four.
All this won’t end well for CBB.
So…if we’re not going to be allowed to stack, and if the 08 team was the last team capable of beating any of todays stacks; then why dumb down system for a year and change the BBIQ trajectory of years 2,3,4 of your current players? We ended up with 2 seasons of win totals in the 20’s anyway. I’m hoping that the focus gets back to fundamentals, high BBIQ, and versatility to be able to beat stacks and everyone else. I hope that focus starts with the classes of Devonte and Svi, and adding Vick, Bragg, and was hoping Chukuw. Also hopefully Diallo comes back for years 2,3.
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@jayhawkbychoice and I loved watching that beating
