No Cliff
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@JayHawkFanToo I just don’t understand that if he could get thru this season, we could still be penalized at some pt.
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I don’t believe that KU would be penalized for something it did not do or did not know. TTBOMK, As soon as KU was notified by the NCAA of an investigation, it took the proper action and sat Cliff. Now, if KU knew about this issue earlier than we think it did and still played Cliff…then that is a different ball game, but I really do not think this is the case; schools are super careful in this area because they are aware of the potential consequences…it is just not worth it, unless you are Calipari, of course.
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@JayHawkFanToo then why wouldn’t Cliff come back? I do ask a lot of questions!
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Money? even if he goes in the second round (like Mario) he would still make more money than most Americans do…not a lot of $200k-$400k jobs out there for someone with one year of college.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think Cliff wants more than what he would get now, and that’s the humbling experience he’s going thru now. I don’t know the whole story, but I do feel sorry for them. I haven’t walked in their shoes, but know many who have. Sad!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Is Cliff projected in the second round? I really dont know. If that is the case, its not guaranteed money. He has to be good enough to make the roster of whatever team
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It sounds like you are of the opinion that Cliff and his family signed away their right to personal privacy so that Cliff can play basketball at KU. I disagree with that. I think they have a right to privacy and the NCAA doesn’t have an automatic right to your phone records, financials, etc.
It’s unfortunate that college sports has turned into a situation where some feel that the privilege of college athletics means that you forfeit a right to personal privacy if the NCAA asks any questions. When you reach that point, I think there is more wrong with the rules than there is with the action.
There is no allegation that Cliff or his family did anything illegal. Just that it was against NCAA rules. Whatever loan they did or didn’t get, at whatever terms, or whatever phone calls they made or didn’t make, isn’t really my business. I’m a sports fan. I don’t have a right to know what their financial situation is, or who they called, or anything like that.
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@Lulufulu Gillian anderson is on pretty cool bbc series called " the fall" you need a fix
Its on netflix
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@Bosthawk Cool! Thanks for the heads up. I’ll check it out. Love me some Gillian Anderson.
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You are absolutely right, as I have mentioned before, the NCAA does not have the “right” to any private information; however, if there are allegations that the NCAA rules were violated, the NCAA has a fiduciary obligation to its members to investigate so all school compete on a level field.
Just because they did not do anything illegal does not mean they did not break NCAA rules. Let me give you an example, when I bought my current home it was part of a sub-division that has its own rules and regulations, supposedly in place to protect the home owners and membership is not optional, if you buy a property in the subdivision, you automatically are a member of the association and have to follow the by-laws…and pay the yearly fees. I did not have to buy a home here, but once I did I was bound by the regulations that include getting permission from the association’s architectural committee to do things like replace the roof or paint your house. I could replace the roof of my house for one that is not approved or paint my home a color that was not approved, and while neither of these actions are illegal or violate any city code or ordinance, they are indeed in direct violation of the subdivision’s by-laws that I voluntarily agreed to follow. In my subdivision, the association has the right to force you to correct the problem and if you don’t, they will do it for you and place a lien in your house. By the way my guest have to also follow sub-division regulations when in my home. . If you are not willing to abide by the subdivision regulations, you can always buy a home in a different location that does not have the restrictions. BTW, most every sub-division in my area has similar regulations
The NCAA is an organization with voluntary membership and members/schools participating in NCAA sanctioned activities agree to follow the rules. It is really that simple; if you don’t want to be subject to the NCAA rules, you don’t have to do it, you can play JUCO, overseas or one of the many semi-pro leagues but you will not have the prestige of the NCAA in the same way I would not have the prestige of my sub-division if I buy a home somewhere else.
Let’s not blame the NCAA for doing what they are required to do. The blame appears to lay on Cliff’s family that “allegedly” and knowingly broke NCAA rules and in the process placed Cliff’s future in jeopardy.
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Im not interested in talking defense, and i dont have a hair of a notion why we hired someone thats been in the water for 10 years. The point is if we dont get Jimmy Chitwood back playing ball we dont have a prayer…:)
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@JayHawkFanToo I have a good one for you. I live on a golf course in a community with fees for upkeep and rules like no garage sales-we approve house paint, etc,
The golf course put a fence on the (easement) that runs along common areas on every hole at the tees And greens. They built it and it is on the easement where buried power cables lay… The fence is most likely on their side of the easement
Right now they are painting and repairing said fences at the tees and greens, and they are sending notes to the home owners we are to paint the fences along our property as well. This is BS.
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Your example is a good one, but doesn’t compare.
For example, if you paint your house a different color, that doesn’t give your HOA the right to inquire into your finances, or cull through your phone records to see which contractors you contacted.
Let’s imagine this - say your HOA has a rule that a guest cannot do something. Let’s say the HOA comes up, knocks on your front door and demands entry to inspect your home and question your house guests. My guess is that you would tell the HOA where they could go, and it wouldn’t be your living room, because you have a certain expectation of privacy regarding your personal matters, as well you should.
That’s my point with Cliff. He and his family have a right to some degree of privacy and playing basketball at Kansas does not eliminate that right.
I’m not blaming the NCAA. I’m saying that if I was in the situation that Cliff and his family were in, I would not be inclined to turn over personal records and information any more than they currently are.
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@justanotherfan Got it. Big brother, legality, etc. The reason Reggie Bush had to return the trophy and wins got vacated at USC is the family didn’t hire the guy (trying to be his agent) after he had already showered them in cash and benefits. So he sued them to get his money back-now things are public record and the NCAA acted. His family moved to that nice home in San Diego and Reggie was driving a new car during his Sr. Year. These benefits were stated in SoCal papers DURING the season. The sh*t hit the fan after he finished school.
I think USC AND the NCAA chose to let him slide, let USC get its season, bowl game, Heisman winner etc. and the cash rolled in knowing they would have damage control issues later. Just ride the horse and rake in the cash while you can-and while a good biz decision if all you care about is money-pitiful ethics.
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My example was not not meant to be a be a verbatim comparison, but simply that when we agree to follow rules voluntarily (me the homeowners association by-laws, Cliff and family the NCAA rules) then we really cannot go back and say…I decided that I will not follow the rules I voluntarily agreed to. I am not comparing the severity of the personal intrusion, I am simply saying that we both entered into a binding contract that we have to honor; by the way, my homeowner’s association requires that you provide written documentation on the type of roofing you want to install and a copy of the contract that specifies the product in question, and they have the authority to reject if it does not meet the association criteria. As far as guests, you cannot compare one to the other since my guest are there for short period of time and they do not participate or are part of the association activities, and as long as they obey the rules in regards to parking and good public behavior, there is no problem. The players, on the other hand are an integral part of the NCAA activities and are there for extended periods of time; in fact, they are the reason for the existence of the NCAA.
I am not sure I understand why it is a problem for Cliff’s family to follow the rules they voluntarily agreed to follow when it does not seem to be a problem for the families of the 1000’s other players that follow the rules. Maybe you can explain that to me.
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just read this from a fan on the slant that goes by ‘ransam’: “Cliff had a meeting today at 3 o’clock with the NCAA and It ended at 6pm. In attendance was his mom, dad, and cliff. Not sure if anybody else was there besides the NCAA. The issue is about $50,000 and it involves his mom. His father or cliff knew nothing about it. One of the major issue is if his mom gave Cliff any money or bought him anything using that money, and if he knew where the money came from when she bought it for him. That is Why cliff has already provided bank receipts and personal phone statements. Any personal decisions made about Cliff basketball career will be handled by Cliff and his father, his mom is not involved going forward in regards to Cliff’s basketball career. From what it sounded like, she may not even be welcomed at his games. Although that I’m not clear on. It is possible that a decision could be reached as early as tomorrow and Cliff could possibly fly out and be with the team in Omaha.” 0 Sign in to replySign in to suggest removal
Suzi Marshall 1 hour, 43 minutes ago Thanks for posting that!!! If Alexander is cleared and brings some fire with him, that would be an incredible lift for the team!! 0 This was from KU sports
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@jaybate-1.0 rumor!
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
The players, on the other hand are an integral part of the NCAA activities and are there for extended periods of time; in fact, they are the reason for the existence of the NCAA.
Ah, and this is where the slope gets very slick.
The players are only there temporarily - 4 or 5 years max, and they are not considered partners in the financial benefits of the NCAA. That’s left to the universities, coaches, AD’s, presidents, sponsors and others. The players are treated as guests, but questioned like owners.
More than anything else, that’s the problem the NCAA runs into. They are constantly investigating the “guests”. KU is the one that owns the house. Bill Self and his staff live there. The players are guests.
Taking this back to your example, the players are expected to follow the rules for parking and public behavior. If they don’t, that doesn’t give the NCAA the right to invade their privacy any more than it gives your HOA the right to demand to see your guest’s car title, insurance card, etc. They can ask them to move the car. That’s it. They can ask them to turn down the stereo, but they can’t confiscate it.
But that’s what the NCAA does. They want the car title and insurance. They confiscate stereos. Kansas is a part of the NCAA. Cliff Alexander is a student at Kansas, not an NCAA member institution.
As far as the rules they agreed to follow, if the new rumor is true, Cliff has to prove that he didn’t know his mom got a loan and that he didn’t take any of the proceeds from that loan. So it comes down to him showing that his mom didn’t send him money that can be traced back to a loan. Cliff Alexander’s mom is not a part of the NCAA. She’s not even a basketball player for an NCAA member school. But the NCAA is wanting her personal banking and phone records, as well as his father’s, and Cliff’s. To me, that’s where the reach is getting too long. At what point does the athlete get to say “no more”? Is this really a choice between playing ball and keeping some degree of personal privacy?
I think we are all pretty reasonable people here, but when I look at this, I see the human side of it, and my human side says that this is too far.
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Again, we will have to agree to disagree. In my home with or without my “guests” life goes on and it does not affect the association. The KU players are more than guest, they are more like semi-permanent residents, and more importantly, without the players THERE IS NO NCAA; the players/student athletes ARE the reason why the NCAA exists. By the way, in my association, we cannot rent our homes and only the owner or family can live in them; the association has the right to get documentation to insure the current residents are there legally.
My question is…what is the alternative? Should agents juts go around giving “loans” to families of student athletes? Doesn’t UK have enough of an advantage already without unleashing WWW on the families of every All-American? They would not have 10 OADs, they would have the top 15 ranked players. every year and school bidding for players…this is what the NBA doe not the NCAA. Would these families get the same loan without a student athlete involved? Obviously not. The idea is to try to keep a level field and maintain the amateur status; once money is paid they become pros and are not eligible to play in the NCAA. There are many Olympic athletes that forfeit lucrative endorsements so they can maintain eligibility.
I am not sure why you think this is a big issue when literally tens of thousands of other student athletes and their families faithfully comply with rules the VOLUNTARILY agreed to observe without any issue, many in truly dire financial situations. Again, we all are subject to all kinds of personal intrusions in our personal lives that we voluntary agree. I see this as no different.
As I said, we obviously agree to disagree.
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@JayHawkFanToo I can certainly see why this Cliff thing is taking so long!
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Let’s look at this as if these are students first.
I know a (now former) student that is very gifted in science. They had this innate ability all through high school scientifically and excelled in science. Unfortunately, they came from a lower middle class family. Not poor, but definitely from a background of limited resources.
Fortunately for this family, people took notice of their child’s scientific prowess, particularly in the business community and helped pitch in to get this kid into a private high school. They also helped get this kid into a top science school and, once they graduated, helped them through grad school. Now they are working for a company that was involved in that process. And nothing is wrong with that. They were identified because of their (academic) talent and rewarded for that (academic) talent.
We don’t allow that here in the U.S. for athletes. In Europe, the top soccer teams identify talent and send those players to academies as early as 10 or 12 years old. These are pro teams! Of course, this is only for the most elite players, as the rest remain with their local school or club teams.
My issue with the “amateur status” is that the only part of the NCAA that is amateur is the way that the athletes are treated. The coaches are not amateurs, particularly at the major college level. The university presidents, AD’s, etc. are certainly not amateurs. They are professionals in every sense of the word, and are paid like it.
Once upon a time, the NCAA was about amateur athletics. Drop down to the D2 and D3 levels, and you still see that today. Even at the low major level, you see that.
But this is Kansas. This is not low major. This is (apologies to @HighEliteMajor) High Elite Major basketball. Bill Self isn’t getting paid a few million dollars a year to coach “amateur” basketball. He’s being paid a few million dollars a year to coach elite competitive basketball. That is the expectation of Kansas.
We say that the NCAA must maintain amateur status, but that status is a joke. The money is too large at this point. It’s worth too much. We are investigating a player because his mother got a $50k loan while his head coach makes millions of dollars each year, the athletic department budget is over $90m a year. That doesn’t sound like an amateur organization. That sounds like the pros to me.
This is why a separation is coming. The elite schools (and athletes) are on a different level than everyone else. The “tens of thousands of other student athletes” you refer to are student athletes that have as much chance of going pro as you or I. I’m not talking about them. I’m talking about the elite players.
If the playing field was level, Cliff could just as easily have stayed home and gone to UIC or Chicago State. After all, he could get an education there, be close to home, play a little basketball, etc. Everything he can do at KU is available at CSU or UIC. But he came to Kansas for basketball reasons. That fact has to be accepted. The playing field isn’t level because there are certain High Elite Majors with coaches like Self, Calipari, Donovan, Krzyzewski, Williams, Izzo, Pitino, etc. If the playing field was level, Perry Ellis maybe would have been a Wichita State Shocker. But that’s not Kansas.
The NCAA doesn’t exist to level the playing field. The NCAA exists to maintain a certain order of things - to make sure the power schools stay at the top, and that the non-power schools can’t just buy their way to the top. That’s what the NCAA does. There is no leveling of the playing field because the NCAA can’t make money if Sacramento State is on the same level of Cal, or if Wichita State is on the same level as Kansas. The NCAA needs Texas to be Texas and UT- San Antonio to be a couple notches below.
That’s what I look at when I see this. I am not looking at Cliff. I am looking at the entire picture, which is why my judgment is on the NCAA, not Cliff and his family.
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I believe you are comparing apples and oranges, but it makes no sense to continue a discussion with no obvious right or wrong answer but only apparent different points of view. So like I said before, we will just have to agree to disagree.
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I think we all get what you are saying about Cliff and his family having the right to privacy.
What this situation points to is the difference between criminal and civil law.
Cliff’s family may have done nothing “illegal” in a court of law in a State or at the federal level. Even if they had, they have the right to plead the fifth and not incriminate themselves.
However… by not going on public record (or in this case, record with the NCAA), Cliff and family lose out on a big opportunity to defend themselves against harmful allegations.
In this case… it is unlikely there is evidence pointing to criminal activity. This case is a civil institutional case, a case embedded in the rules and regulations set forward by the NCAA, the governing body for college athletics.
Therefore, allegations are withstanding, and they will be judged by the governing body, with or without the statements of the Alexander family. If they choose to “plead the fifth” then a judgment will come without their input to help their own case.
This can then reach into a courtroom in a civil case, if one or more parties feel they have suffered damages that can be assessed a monetary value or if they seek some form of action judgment against a defending party. The results of a civil case either have to be appealed at the next level or followed as prescribed, or the next step becomes a criminal case.
Once again… it would be likely that the Alexander’s records and testimonies are asked for. Once again, in most areas, they can plead the fifth. But now they may be putting more at stake than Cliff’s eligibility at Kansas. And any falsification in a court room is perjury and prosecuted in criminal court.
The ultimate focus of their legal counsel should be to prevent the Alexander’s (as a whole or individually) from suffering a monetary challenge (and later, judgment) in civil court. Secondary, would be Cliff’s eligibility.
I keep saying “the Alexanders” but there is a good chance that there is hardship within the family, and family members turn against each other. This opens up another level of threat and reason why one or more persons may stonewall this thing… to prevent a possible civil suit challenge and judgment against themselves from someone in their own family.
Legal situations get messy very quickly. They often get amplified quickly when it is family members who also may have other axes to grind.
Leading to my ultimate oxymoron: “accelerated legal remedy”
All parties in this fight are proceeding with care and prudence to prevent putting themselves in a situation where they cause another party damages that can be assessed a monetary value.
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Is this another Snacks issue and is he gone at the end of the season?
