It may be Fool's Gold, Coach, but it's awfully pretty
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BTW… loved your posts in this thread!
"Self laments a fiction. That team can’t rely upon threes because teams could take that away, or you could have a bad shooting night, as if that can’t happen underneath. "
Precisely… and guess what… if your guys have any kind of motion in the offense it is harder for teams to take away the 3 than it is the post. Look at how much territory they have to cover versus the tiny confines of the post! We’ve experienced years of this in post season… where suddenly our post play dries up because of double and triple teams. And then that would open up our outside but we’ve had a year of hi/lo offense and our guys didn’t know where the scoring seams were or have the confidence to hit the 3s, especially in March. And seriously… being a good perimeter shooting team is a lot more than just hitting a few shots… it is all about the structure of the offense.
Self is really fighting all of basketball. Most everyone else has realized how valuable it is to be good from 3. The NBA (which has a 3pt line further out) is completely geared towards the 3… even bigs need to be capable at that distance.
This team continues to smoke from the 3pt line in spite of what Self is running on offense. Last night… heck… we were still hitting 3s and running God knows what on offense. Many of our shots were contested, many even blocked. But we still pursued the natural identity of who we are and we prevailed.
This really has become a battle for identity, between Self and his players.
None of us want Self’s head on a stick. We just want him to step all the way out of his comfort zone and take advantage of this very talented team!
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@drgnslayr Do you think this team went off script in the second half? There was clearly a point where there was a more concerted effort to get the ball inside but then it seemed like they just decided, “forget this! Let’s bomb from deep!”
Are the players finally taken ownership of this team and playing to their own strengths? Self thought we took too many threes. Is that because he told them to work it inside and work the clock (T-Axis)?
We won big but Self seemed perturbed. Jesse mentioned Selden walking off the court without looking at Self.
Has Self been forcing his team to go through adversity so that they come out the other side stronger?
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This is a false argument, Self will allow every open three point shot that 7 green-lighted guys can put up. Is it wrong to want defense, rebounds and fast breaks? No one is being shut down from shooting jump shots except all Big’s not named Ellis. Fools gold refers to just shooting 3’s and not doing the other things. The only fiction we’re talking about is some fear that Self will have everyone quit shooting threes.
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I really think it is more than that. I agree with @HighEliteMajor and it isn’t right calling 3s “fools gold” because it sends negative energy around shooting 3s. Brannen Greene is the “keeper of fools gold.”
Self is usually pretty careful how he parses his words. That has always been something we all appreciate, especially since he came after Roy, who was famous for ticking off people with his comments.
Self does allow the 3-ball from most of his team. This is a major step from where he used to be. And guys are given more leeway… less quick hooks, etc. And by doing that we are suddenly a remarkable 3-pt shooting team.
But “allowing” and “supporting” are not the same thing. Self needs to embrace the identity of this team, which is a “perimeter shooting team.” In that area, he is slow to come around. He still is focused primarily “inwards out”…
What difference does it make if we shoot 20 or 40 3pt shots per game? We should take what the defense gives. If that is 100, we take 100!
I am optimistic he is changing some. As much as he has forced his philosophy on his team, his team has forced their own identity back on him. Everyone is getting a lesson in this, including Self.
I bet after the year is over, Self will mention this. I just hope it isn’t one of those speeches like “I should have listened more to my guys” after a painful end-of-season loss.
“Are the players finally taken ownership of this team and playing to their own strengths?”
To some degree, yes! I believe these guys really believe in the 3. And I think they want to prove it is more than “fools gold” to Self.
Maybe this is all just Self playing another poker hand. He is the master at controlling his information. The guy doesn’t speak with loose lips. Maybe he just wants his guys to prove it. So he has put the carrot in front of them, to prove the 3! That wouldn’t surprise me a bit.
All of us in here sometimes take him too literal. Sometimes we just need to sit back and watch the drama take place in front of us. It’s not like we are dealing with a coach that loses many games! We should be able to cut him a little bit of slack and trust his judgment now and then!
Watch out everyone… I’m as capable of flipping opinions every bit as much as the political clowns we elect in DC! Maybe I missed my calling!!!
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My guys, meaning KU Buckets?
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@wrwlumpy: You had part of the quote. Self said “We had no low post game.” He mentioned, too, “scoring off the pass.” I have listened to coach Self very closely, and even in the past few weeks he’s talked about throwing it inside to get easy baskets.
I will correct one item, my cut and pasted was partial – I referred to delusional both regarding back to the basket and shooting 30% of attempts from three.
May I ask, you did not answer my questions – could you indulge me?
I ask you then, is there any evidence now, on February 10, with seven regular season games left, to suggest that this team can get effective, reliable scoring the back to the basket way that Self prefers?
If the answer is “no” – which I assume that it is – is it not delusional to believe that something is suddenly going to change in that regard?
Again, this is limited to back to the basket stuff.
He is allowing the offense to open up by allowing Greene on the court.
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I think we are too polarized by Self’s “for the media” comments. I like HEM’s posts, but I liked wrwlumpy’s equally valid concern. But what if this is ALL coach-speak designed for commentators, and anybody in public who may be listening? Self may simply be trying to throw listening opposing coaches off. So he doesn’t tell the announcers the truth. He lets us fans percolate like this off on a tangent, debating something he’s already told the team to do. Maybe he is just being a crafty wolf with his public comments, all by design???
What if Self is OK with the 3 bombing, but still wants this squad to continue to improve its 2pt %. I don’t like the sound of the debate when it sounds like an either/or proposition. Why cant we continue bombing treys, but get tougher on the inside too? Sheesh, what a concept: a royalty program that wants it all, except a 7ft rim protector which we just wont have this season.
In summary, I like everybody’s thoughts on this, and there is no point in arguing the nuances of what-%-3pt-atts is “too many”, as Self or the team itself will determine that.
One thing that is damn fun, is when that 3pt shooting bug becomes “infectious” and multiple guys start connecting from 3. It is an equalizer. My sane thought for Self is that he simply tells the kids to mix up the penetrations-for-dunk-assist with the penetrations-for-kickout-3. But then maybe he doesn’t have to as Frank and Wayne are already doing that, as is Perry. If he is allowing them to read-the-D and make decisions during their penetration dribble-drives, all the better, as that decision-making will get us far in the Dance.
The only way dogged determination of pounding inside will get us far, is if our personnel for doing that playstyle are simply overpowering (which they are not). But you cannot become 1-dimensional either, because you become easier to scout and prep for. I think Self wants balance above all, simply to keep the opponent guessing.
And finally, there could be 2 equally true statements: 1) Historically speaking, it may well be fools gold to place too much reliance on the 3ball., and 2) This team is better at 3% than any past Self team. Ever.
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@HighEliteMajor When I get home from work and get the DVR cooking. I’ll make some visuals to indulge. Do you want coach to apologize to the players for saying “Fool’s Gold?” After last night are you convinced he’s washed up? Is Self Anti three point shooting? Has he really cheapened anyone? Are there no easy baskets inside?
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@JayHawkFanToo - No one has said that we don’t want a credible inside game, have they? No one has said to abandon the inside game.
You said, “We would all agree that they went insane; being one dimensional in sports is a recipe for failure…you have to have a complete game in order to be successful; it is no different for basketball.”
No one has said that. The entire point is scheming to the strength of your team.
@Jesse-Newell had a great article this afternoon. He asked a good question. If you can play inside-out, why not outside-in?
Of course, you can play outside-in. Did you see our four out/one in offense? That’s how you can get more inside post scoring. Isolation and spacing.
You fall into your continuous and impossible trap. You think that teams just tell us what to do. You said, “Look what happened at OSU. KU was shooting great from the outside (7 of 9) in the first half and then OSU adjusted the defense and got on the grill of the outside shooters and they could no longer score like they did in the first half (3 of 11).”
Again, I would implore you to follow along here. What did we do to scheme to get open three point looks? Nothing. Unfortunately, I rewatched the game. There was no change in what we did. This is where many fail to hold Self accountable – it is a coach’s job to adjust to OSU pushing our offense away from the basket. There was no schematic change. No adjustment. We just started a bit farther away because OSU changed their approach. So because OSU says so, we’re going to go 3/11 from three? This is what you will never concede. You will never concede he did anything wrong, or that he failed to do something he should have, or could have. As you said in another post, you won’t second guess him. That creates the cocoon from which you operate.
If a team pushed your offense away from the basket with tight pressure, what would you do? First thing I would do would be to go to a back cut game, but I digress.
Your point is good, in part. We shot 10-20 for the OSU game, right? That is terrific. I’ll take that. But that just goes to what Self has said in the other elements of the game, and the need to improve. And that goes to your point, I believe. It is best to be a complete team (although no one seems to be saying anything to the contrary).
But it also bolsters my point, and the point of many others – scheme and shoot more threes. Just not shoot them. Scheme to get three point looks.
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@wrwlumpy: To answer your questions:
Do you want coach to apologize to the players for saying "Fool’s Gold? No, I want him to stop making comments that demean his players’ abilities – those same abilities that are our only chance at a national championship. Our ONLY chance. (Does anyone dispute that with this team?)
After last night are you convinced he’s washed up? No.
Is Self Anti three point shooting? Yes, he despises it. It’s a third or fourth option.
Has he really cheapened anyone? Yes. Brannen Greene is “Fool’s Gold.” Best offensive weapon on the team, if that matters.
Are there no easy baskets inside? Very few with this team. Or have I missed something.
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@drgnslayr - You said “None of us want Self’s head on a stick. We just want him to step all the way out of his comfort zone and take advantage of this very talented team!”
Very well said. But guys like @JayHawkFanToo, like a lot of guys at the old site used to do, make into something it’s not. It’s not a tactical, schematic, or strategy discussion, everything is an attack on a God.
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@HighEliteMajor Excellent posts regarding Self’s recent comments.
What some on here are failing to understand is how out of place and, to an extent, inappropriate Self’s comments are. A lot of this is on him for not having the personnel to have an inside out game that we have become accustomed to. This is the team he has and he needs to let them shoot. And if the other team does its job and compensates for the trey shooting, then drive and dish.
Good perimeter shooting really opens up the middle for guys like Perry to have room to operate.
And also, just because we are not on the coaching staff does not mean we are inept or stupid. Yes, Self is most likely a better coach than any of us or any two of us put together. But that does not mean that he is perfect or all knowing, because he is far from that. He has two very apparent weaknesses: lack of flexibility and choking in the tournament, both of which have resulted in losses that are bizarre and perplexing (UNI, VCU, etc.), and should never have happened.
That said, I think he is still a very good coach and wouldn’t want someone else in his position. But at the same time he needs to work also on improving his weaknesses and not repeating those same mistakes, which is exactly what we all have to do in our everyday lives.
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@ralster well said!
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@DinarHawk first of all, Embiid was not a known OAD. I think what you are saying is what coach is saying. He’s not holding the team back from shooting 3’s, he wants them to get better at other things, ball movement, rebounding, defense, etc
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I don’t always know if I can figure out the method to Self’s madness with what he says to the media. I think he is being hard headed about going inside. But as others have said, we need a balanced offense. We do need to be able to get the ball inside and we need the guards to penetrate. That all opens up the 3 ball which we shoot very well. I do worry about living with the 3 and dying by the 3. At some point during the tournament (conf. or NCAA) we will likely be cold from the outside. Although…we do have several guys that can shoot it well.
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@DinarHawk I would go a bit further. There is a separate thread re a USAToday article comparing Coach K and HCBS over the past decade. Concludes that Self has a better record - indeed, better than any other coach over that period. Taking into account Xs and Os, recruiting, graduation rate, embrace of Jayhawk tradition, and likability, I think he has been and is the best.
Having said that, there are certainly times when I’ve been frustrated with him - as many die-hard Jayhawks have been. All coaches have systems, tendencies and biases. His have yielded extraordinary success over time. Notwithstanding, do I personally wish he would ride the same horses so much (e.g., EJ), not be so quick to yank certain players, and do more to take advantage of bench strength (well, at least in some years). Yes!!!
But, I would be the first to acknowledge that I don’t know that if he had been a bit more flexible that the outcomes would have been better. My own belief is yes, but you can’t prove the counterfactual. What he has demonstrated compelling and consistently over time is that his approach and system does lead to being able to win games when shots are falling and in hostile environments. Win ugly.
What we’ve seen with this team, however, is that it just isn’t constituted like most if not all other KU teams over the past decade. It’s young and the bigs simply aren’t as big or as talented. I think he’s struggled to find to the right way to handle this team. For most of the season thus far, it has seemed that he has been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole - trying to generate back-to-the basket post scoring from guys that are neither big or skilled enough to do it consistently - and not at all against L&A opponents. At the same time, he is afraid of becoming too reliant on the thing that this particular group of players does better than any prior group of Jayhawks - make shots from beyond the arc, esp. when they have the freedom to take those shots and don’t have to worry about being yanked the first time they miss one.
I’m hopeful it is coming together on the offensive in - more outside in, freedom to take open 3 pointers, but also a commitment to penetrate and find Perry down low when the floor is spread and he has some room to maneuver. I’m still most concerned, as I think he is, about a different balance - get more on the defensive end. As I noted in an earlier post, the defensive efficiency ratings for the past two years have been the lowest of the Self era - dramatically worse than most years. I think he believes, and I would concur, that we have to be able to consistently get stops for those games where the shots - from 3 or 2 - just aren’t falling.
Because of youth and constitution, I’m not persuaded that we will get much better on the defensive end - hard to see significant improvement in basic stuff like boxing out and sliding to cut off penetration over the next 10 games. If so, it would seem that our best chance to make a run is simply to play to this team’s strengths and a bit differently than Jayhawk teams of the past. Whether Self agrees is another matter. But, I still wouldn’t trade him for anyone else…
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****I think I have Bill figured out. Somewhere in the story of the Ugly Duckling, at some point, the ugly duckling finds out it’s a swan. Bill, your team is a swan. And swans are great at shooting threes. We have no ducklings, ugly or not, in the middle. We must launch with our long necks. And shoot threes. **
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Dang…lose at OSU and coach gets crucified. Win at Tech (granted, a league bottom feeder. But also a team that beat ISU) by 23 and get crucified.
Such is life for the king I guess.
I love the quality of the comments here. Truly some of the best and well-informed basketball conversation. Challenging and thought-provoking. But lately it seems to be overrun by a blanket of discontent. It’s like we acknowledge that we’re spoiled, and then in the same breath go “but…” and proceed to voice our perceived sleights. As if we’re owed something and have been deprived.
Very few posts about the actual game last night. Little breakdown of individual performances. Very little optimism. If someone was reading this oblivious to the results, they might perceive from the tone that we lost last night.
Guess I’m just a little bit surprised that there wasn’t more of a positive vibe following last night’s game. That we’re taking so very little from the actual game and so very much from post-game comments.
Oh well. On to Baylor.
(side note: please take nothing from my “crucified” and “king” references. They are metaphors. No, Self is not my god nor my king.)
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Again, you are taking my points out of context to fit your narrative
There is no question that KU is playing from the outside in and that the inside game is not doing well…but then, how do you fix the inside game so you don’t have a one dimensional game? You have to keep trying it until you improve it right?
KU is most definitely scheming to shoot the three and it has more success with some teams than others depending on how well they scheme to stop our outside game. Again. there is no question that KU is setting up the offense looking for the three and if the opportunity present itself feeding it inside; this is exactly what the team was doing last night, getting it inside when they had good looks, the only problem was that they were missing easy shots; in the second half those easy shots started to go in and the entire game changed because it opened up the game for the outside shot…this the ideal situation, isn’t it?
Opposing teams will try to stop what is working and sometimes, despite the best laid plans, the team just does not execute the plan. Why do you think Coach Self is on the sidelines, red in the face screaming at players?..do you think he is telling them…good job, you are doing exactly what we planned? No, he is trying to tell them quite the opposite, but unfortunately it does not always work. You make it sound that if players are give a set play they will hit the 3 every time? No, they will not. Greene will do that better than anyone but other teams will do their best to prevent him from doing just that…and we are not talking Sister of the Poor caliber teams, we are talking top 25 teams. Our 3 point shooters have their limitations and you can see that Greene will not shoot unless he is isolated and wide open, KU tries to do that but obviously the other teams did not get the memo and try their best to no leave him open, Sure we can do a lot better against teams such as TTU which we can overwhelm with talent but it is not so simple against other equally capable teams. Would it surprise you to know that TTU, a team shorter than KU managed to blocks 4 shots…and 3 of them were 3 point shots and only 1 inside? Yes, our three point shooters do have limitations.
Again, I am not saying that KU should concentrate on the inside game and abandon the outside game that seems to be the strength of this team. All I am saying is continue playing from the outside in but do not stop trying to improve the inside game. Some day when the team goes 2 of 21 from the outside (see VCU game) we still have an inside game that can keep us in the game and hopefully bail us out. This is exactly what Coach Self is doing and you are critical of his approach…so what is it exactly that you want?
You said**: “… But guys like @JayHawkFanToo, like a lot of guys at the old site used to do, make into something it’s not. It’s not a tactical, schematic, or strategy discussion, everything is an attack on a God.”**
I read most every post in this forum and I can think of maybe a handful of occasions when you complimented Coach Self. Every other post of yours is criticism of him and even your compliments are of the left handed variety. You have called him every name from delusional to being on drugs and you are constantly stating -as a fact- that he is wrong and that he does not know what he is doing. It is obvious to me and most everybody with whom I converse on this issue and reads you posts that you like Coach Self even less that you like me…and boy oh boy, that is saying a lot. Any unbiased observer reading your posts would also come to the conclusion that you honestly believe that you know more than Coach Self and that you would do a better job; I certainly get that impression and so do all the people I know personally that follow this forum. You can deny it all you want but actions speak louder than words.
Again, I know a little about basketball but not enough to be even dangerous, let alone good at it, but then this not what I do for a living and at my job, I am much, much better at it than Coach Self is, and I don’t see him second guessing what I do, so I return the favor and I don’t second guess him at what he does best, particularly when I don’t have all the information he does…and he does what he does it so much better than most. My last 2 cents on this topic
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Let me inject this into the discussion: What if the 19-22yr old kids in a particular loss (UNI, VCU, Mich, OkieSt, etc) simply did NOT successfully execute the change-in-tactics or gameplan adjustment that Self actually did tell them to do? Your response to this hypothetical question depends on your own philosophy: one can say ‘ok, the players didn’t do what play the coach called for, so we don’t know for a fact that Self failed to make a coaching adjustment’…OR…you could say ‘well, he’s the coach–they didn’t get whatever adjustment implemented, so its coach’s fault, buck stops there!’. Your choice. I know I see NFL pro-level teams not able to execute what may have been a perfect coach-called adjustment or playcall, right? Perfect analogy of what Im trying to say.
I don’t think Self is infallible, just as I don’t think Mike Krzyzewski is infallible. Heck, Self outright admitted it was his coaching error that cost the 08Champs the game vs KState in Manhattan that year (trying to double team Beasley, which the 08 guys were dutifully flying around trying to do, but got beat by then-unknown 3shooters named Clemente + Pullen shooting open looks in their own gym). Self made the adjustment, and the return game at AFH was a purple massacre. Self isn’t always right. But I’d bet the farm (& the Ferrari) on what he truly believes in private. But I’d strongly advise taking his public, to-media comments with a grain of salt. He has proven to be too crafty to take that stuff literally! Notice how the OkieState “cowboy” mascot has the cockeyed grin…well, y’all got one of those fellas right there in Lawrence in that office that used to be Roy’s…
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One more big-pix perspective angle: Every college basketball game there are 2 highly motivated coaches scheming and plotting against their opponent after having seen the scout film and reports. Once the game ends there’s a loser and a winner. The losing players either didn’t execute their coach’s gameplan (seldom are those gameplans actually wrong, isn’t that correct???), or there is the chance that the gameplan was just flat wrong. But that is a miniscule minority of gameplans, as such fundamentally wrong coaches wouldn’t last long, right?
If you are a TxTech alum, who would you blame for the TxTech loss to KU? Tubby Smith, a guy who’s built 4 winning programs and has a ring, or his very, very young squad that is still learning (uh, kinda like Billy Self’s team is, but then y’all knew that…) how to reliably execute. Heck TxTech is still learning how to shoot the ball. What in-game adjustments did Tubby Smith make or not-make that cost his kids the game. Why did they melt down in the 2nd half? They got length and athleticism. And didn’t Odiase actually outplay that Cliff Alexander MickeyD-from-Chicago? (yes he did). So who do you blame for the TxTech loss if you are a TxTech alum/fan? Come on, lets drive this home. Gotta blame somebody, right?
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@icthawkfan316 You’re right. Not enough comments about the game in general. I saw Greene’s lallygagging on defense and sure enough…he came out. It was pretty blatant lazy defense. I don’t understand why he would do that even for one play. We need him in there because he is an unbelievable weapon. Selden has shot the ball well enough of late that his 3 pt %, well as his FT % are now decent…unlike earlier in the season. I thought Cliff played well other than the first couple of trips…but Oidase did outplay him. I think Cliff will continue to improve. We finally got some decent seals inside in the 2nd half and got some easy baskets. One bad half, one good half…never heard that one before.
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Self is fine. I think he has a fair balance of inside/out play. I watched several passes inside against TT. They looked a lot like the Bill Self KU inside game that we’re used to. I believe we are all used to Withey, the twins, Robinson, and Embiid playing inside. They made that piece of the game look really easy. So much, the outside shooting of Reed, EJ, Rel, BMac’s shooting paled a bit. Although Releford and BMac held their own. I don’t think Wigs ever got on track quite like Greene and Selden. He relied more on attacking the rim and was able to hit the long ball, but again, he had a lot of inside help. Wigs was more hesitant to pull the trigger and tended to forced a lot inside, when he should’ve pulled up for short jumpers. He was a bit intimidated at times when he found himself defended at the rim, by missing many bunnies. Ellis is doing a lot of this too.
Last night was what we need for the rest of the season. If they can balance the inside game with the outside game, we’ll be fine. I think Self is simply saying not to rely on outside shooting. He wants to supplement the long ball with just enough deep, inside pins to keep teams honest. They moved the ball inside/out and outside in fairly well. TT defended inside fairly well too.
I don’t think Self is choking Greene or anyone else. He’s said many times that Greene needs to take more and in fact, he even said they need to create some plays that will open his shooting frequency. I don’t know where you think Self is preventing this team from shooting 3s. It’s clear he’s way more open to 3s then any other team.
He recognizes the teams potential. He knows they can go inside and then pull up outside. We’re not as long either, so he realizes a few more 3s are needed to pull defenses out. Remember, in the past, teams would pack it in and allow KU to shoot 3s because they weren’t quite as accurate. They are fine and peaking about right leading into the back half of the season. They should be ready for B12 tourney and beyond.
The D is coming along really well. They need to keep up the pressure and intensity on the ball to create those much needed TOs and transition points too.
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@HighEliteMajor I know that you and I both love and live and die Jayhawks. I, like Keith Langford, was upset when the Run and Gun of Roy left us, to be taken over by a defensive minded coach. After 12 years I shared the joy of a National Championship, and the heartbreak of every loss. Your passion seems to be much greater than mine. You are brilliant in your anger. I don’t understand the blame and harsh words though. I’ve been wrong in many of my assessments of players. I once stated that Selden was the leader of this team, I was wrong. I thought Svi’s early showing would have him be a star this season. I defended Jamari just yesterday over Cliff. I just wanted to say that I don’t believe Coaches statement was evil in regards to “Fools Gold.” I did think we must try to set up the outside shots by at least not being one dimensional. We did play inside successfully in the second half and hit six straight threes. You were championing Brannen last year long before anyone else. The announcer last night asked Coach if Brannen was the best shooter he has ever coached. Self said he was and the only other that was nearly comparable was Brandon Rush. But the bile that this defensive coach has had to swallow this year because of poor defense could kill him. Let me illustrate a few thoughts:
We can play inside the three point line, but not a back to the basket Withey’s or Robinson style
He missed the dunk but got fouled.
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Here is Brannen letting Lucas clear for Ellis to come to the middle! Ellis stops and hits the easytwo.
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Here is coach always coaching and caring. If he screams, he cares. People on the bench don’t get yelled at. After the coaching there is a pat on the back and a smile.
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He is sent back onto the court and then this happens…
That is when Simon brought up the deficiencies on defense. Coach is doing everything he can. I’m also sorry to have been so sarcastic.
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@KUinLA Please don’t allow my simplifications to grow too complex or befuddling. My wife declares that she views tongue in cheek as among my most irritating qualities. Sometimes I do seem to squeeze a bit too much juice from thinskinned lemons.
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This is one inside play that involved a beautiful shot fake and pass from Devonte and a super seal by Perry.
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Great illustrations, wrwlumpy. Greene getting burned was seared into my brain, but I’d forgotten it was right after the sideline meeting with the coach. LOL.
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@ralster The error in your analogy here is that you don’t take into account the relative skill levels of the players on each team. At least 5 of Kansas’ top rotation players are going to be drafted into the NBA, whenever they decide to declare. They may not make the roster, but Cliff, Perry, Wayne, Kelly and Brannen are all going to be drafted. They are of that skill level. How many of TT’s players are going to be drafted? Probably none.
This is a game you are expected to win easily. If you beat a vastly more talented team, it’s a great coaching victory. And if you don’t dispatch a vastly less talented team, where does the blame lie? Well, on this chat board, if your name is Calipari, it’s clear evidence that you’re a terrible coach. If you’re Bill Self, the blame formerly rested squarely on the players shoulders. Not so much anymore.
Repeated tournament upsets have people questioning the coach’s methods. Maybe Bill’s just a victim of his own success, but that’s the source of the anxiety and unease (even in a win) on this board. Either we’re under-peforming in the tournament (year after year) or we’re over-rated.
If you go into the tournament as an overall #1 or 2 seed, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. If you go in as a 2 seed or higher, anything less than an Elite Eight is a disappointment, and an exit in the first weekend is a disaster. How many times have we seen our draft laden teams get upset by nobodies? Nobodies who didn’t win another game in the tournament. It’s that history that has posters angst-ing over this team’s prospects. We seen it all before.
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@KUinLA The tournament upsets are certainly the biggest issue for most fans including myself. Our standards and our expectations are just incredibly high. We expect a Final 4 every year and if we go out in the Elite 8 even that is a “how did this happen?” situation. The same expectations are an issue at UNC, Duke, Cuse, UK, et cetera.
The early round upsets do seem to cloud our vision a bit though. Let’s just pretend we make it to the Elite 8 or beyond this year. If that is the case Bill will have gone to the Elite 8 6 times in 12 years. 50% of his years we will be in a one game playoff to get to the Final 4. Assuming that happens I consider that a pretty good percentage. If it doesn’t and we lose to a team I have never heard of in the first weekend? Well, I drink heavily and cuss about our awful gameplan and once I am over it I will make bold claims like “next year we may not lose a game”.
Our post seasons may not live up to our expectations (certainly not mine) but things could be worse. This year is a great example of our consistency under both Bill and Roy. We just keep being in the discussion for 1 and 2 seeds. Florida, UCONN, Cuse, MSU, Michigan…these teams probably don’t even make the NCAA Tournament this year.
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@lincase good post! Good analogies. I dont think anyone will disagree with your perspective on this issue here!! Let them run!
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@RockChalkinTexas Coach Self is one of the greats. That much is certain. But, this team is the best 3 point shooting team he has ever had. He has 6 guys that are perfectly capable of shooting greater than 40% from trey. SIX! Sure, there will be a game when 4 of his gunners arent shooting it well at all. But, all six!? No. The law of averages says other wise to me. Just let the other 2 fire away.
But, then again, if we dont have any low post presence, a team full of L&A’s will just crowd the arc and prevent easy shots. Its a conundrum of sorts.
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@JayHawkFanToo What I think is most irritating with you is the shallowness of your responses, and the inaccuracies of your attempts to challenge statements here. You say right out of the box – “There is no question that KU is playing from the outside in and that the inside game is not doing well …”
KU is playing from the outside-in? You do see the high-low we played 100% of the time the past two games, right? You do see the constant focus on feeding the post, right? You did see Selden say right after the last game the following - “we like to play inside-out, that’s how we play.” Kansas is running the same offense they always have. They are taking appx. the same rate of three point shots. I don’t even know what to say this.
It’s not that you disagree. It’s how you try to disagree. It’s that you disagree and you make red herring statements like “Our 3 point shooters have their limitations …”, as if that means something.
And you don’t magically improve the inside game with 7 games left. Please explain to me how this changes now? Game to game, match ups might help. But beyond that, this is the offensive team we have. But keep trying to “improve” as you say? It’s not about that. It’s about scheming to your strength (again, I think you misunderstand that. It doesn’t mean shoot all threes, or 40% of your shots as threes. Or a set number. It is attacking teams trying to get those looks, and then capitalizing when either they don’t stop it, or they try to stop it. You might scheme to get threes and not even shoot one for quite a while in a game. I mentioned back cutting when team pressure out. Just one of many options. I have said many, many times that I’ll take the reliable scoring at the rim any day of the week.).
This is a perfect example of the shallowness of your replies. You say, “KU is most definitely scheming to shoot the three and it has more success with some teams than others depending on how well they scheme to stop our outside game.”
Of course, you never say how. You never point to a change in their scheme. You never, ever come here with a review of the game to demonstrate that (or anything else). Nothing.
You attempt to prove the point that Self is supposedly scheming to get threes with the following, “Why do you think Coach Self is on the sidelines, red in the face screaming at players?..do you think he is telling them…good job, you are doing exactly what we planned?”
That is simply useless.
Brannen Greene said just last week that he is free to shoot within the flow of the offense – again, within the flow of the offense.
There is nothing … zero … that has changed in their offense to get more three point looks. From a set-play standpoint, I noted a specific play against Utah where they got Greene a three point shot. It was very obvious. V-cut to and from the baseline with a screen. Has anyone seen that since?
You said, “You make it sound that if players are give(n) a set play they will hit the 3 every time? No, they will not.”
I’m sorry, I have no idea what planet you live on. It isn’t a basketball planet. And it isn’t a reading comprehension planet. Someone please enlighten me, have I ever made it sound as if we’ll hit “every” three? Or even 50%? I’ve talked plainly about 40%.
You said, referring to yourself, "Again, I know a little about basketball but not enough to be even dangerous, let alone good at it … "
With that, I conclude.
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For those that think teams can just stop your three point shooting if you’re trying to shoot them, do this – think about who was the best three point shooters in recent memory? Guys you don’t want to have the ball. And guys, like Greene, who are deadly from the three point line as well.
One might be JJ Reddick, right? In his four years at Duke, Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in the years he played. Do you think teams tried to stop that dude from shooting? I would think so. And he shot over 40% for his career. So don’t tell me that Greene won’t get good looks if teams try to stop him – if we’re scheming/working to get him looks. And do you think, possibly, that coach K schemed to get Reddick open looks? Maybe? Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night. Best shooter in the country.
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@HighEliteMajor So are you saying that because Reddick shot 238, 258, 300, and 330 three pointers in his four years at Duke and shot at a better than 40% clip that means no team was ever successful at scheming to stop him (or at least slow him down)? Because that is what you’re saying by throwing out those stats and thinking they disprove that teams were capable of stopping and/or slowing down three point shooting.
During his senior season, in which he put up the most 3-point attempts during his career, Wake Forest appears to have had particular success in defending Redick. In the first meeting, Redick was 1-3 from behind the arc while playing 30 minutes (a Duke win). In the second meeting, he was 0-4 while playing 25 minutes (a Duke loss). There are other examples of him either having low attempts in a game that season (3 in 36 minutes against Colorado St.) or him shooting poorly (1-11 in a loss to KU in that year’s NCAA tournament), so it is possible for even the greatest shooters to be defended well, either into low attempts or low success.
Also, Reddick was starter for most (if not all) of his tenure at Duke. He averaged 30.7, 31.1, 37.3, and 37.1 mpg. Greene is averaging 14.7 mpg this season. Scheme or not, Greene is not going to average as many looks per night as Redick did simply because of reduced time on the court. So pointing out that he only shot three 3-pointers in a game is misleading. You have to adjust for playing time. Redick averaged 7.0 3-point attempts his sophomore year while playing 31.1 mpg. Greene shot only three, three pointers the other night, while playing 14 minutes. Adjust that to 31.1 minutes, and the total would be 6.7 attempts. Pretty close to the 7 Redick averaged.
So you can argue for more minutes, and I’d entertain that argument. But three 3-pointers in 14 minutes isn’t a stymied pace.
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Add to that the several instances last game and vs. OSU where specific plays were drawn up to get open threes. The elevator screen play has been seen several times. We ended the first half with a drive and flare screen for Wayne. Our guards have been driving to kick out instead of dish. There have been more aggressive skip passes against zone to get open looks on the perimeter.
The offense is definitely perimeter oriented and vs. OSU it clearly wasn’t enough.
Part of outside-in is IN. Against Tech we needed to work on executing more IN because OUTSIDE was killing them! The win was sealed so we didn’t need to focus on our strengths as much as we did. That is why Self said we shot too many threes and that it is “fools gold.”
He is trying to prevent this extremely talented shooting team from relying on the three. You think Brennan Greene is going to shoot worse because his coach doesn’t value him? He is in the game to shoot and score. When he is in we work to get him looks. Actions speak louder than words. Greene’s psyche is fine.
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@benshawks08 I disagree. A huge part of loss was due to turnovers, not a flaw in the outside in offensive strategy.
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@icthawkfan316 I grant you pretty much everything you have said. Good shooters certainly can be guarded well. I’m not painting with an all encompassing brush. I just think that Reddick is an interesting case study.
Over the course a year, one of the best dual threat guys – 3 pt/FT % – got off over 1,100 attempts.
No doubt, you can work to take one guy out of a game. You could play the “extra help” game where the nearest off defender prioritizes help over his own man. But over the course of a season, it just won’t happen that way.
Further, as is obvious, when you really take a guy away, the Red Sea parts elsewhere. Particularly with more talented teams.
You will also have games when there is truly a lockdown, 1 on 1 defender that wreaks havoc – I think of a long Brandon Rush type guarding a Reddick.
But over the course of a season, one guy won’t be taken away.
I really like the shots per minute comparison there … the “per minute” thing is real important in my thinking on stats.
**Also, I am curious about your reference to Reddick losing to KU his senior season in the tourney. We got bounced in 05-06 vs. Bradley. What were you referring to?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am not referring to Embiid going pro. I am referring to recruiting post players that can execute Self’s inside out strategy.
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@DinarHawk my point was he thought Embiid would be here longer so he didn’t recruit a footer for his offense.
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@DinarHawk Sorry if that was misleading. I was not trying to say Outside in was wrong or flawed. I was just saying we got a significant amount of looks from three especially when you consider how much we turned it over. Obviously turn overs were a major problem in the second half. I’m just trying to say that we need to be able to score inside to provide some balance. Self has shown he is willing to “free the three” but not to the detriment of balance.
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@HighEliteMajor Wasn’t his senior year. It was his freshman year, '02-'03. My bad
