depth chart based on late bought scrimmage
- Frank Mason/Devonté Graham/Conner Frankamp
- Wayne Selden/Conner Frankamp/Frank Mason
- Kelly Oubre/Wayne Selden
- Perry Ellis/Jamari Taylor
- Cliff Alexander/Hunter Mickelson
Did not make rotation: Greene, Mykhailuik, and Lucas.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Did not see the scrimmage.
I read where Landen was injured with a stress fracture and will be out two weeks, so your analysis of the 5 makes sense, at least for now for sure.
Did Brannen Greene and Svi look really bad, or did they not play?
Neither svi nor Brannen played too poorly, but there are limited rotation spots and they didn’t seem as good as cf or graham.
I also think that Frankamp and Graham bring much needed ball handling to the game while svi and bg do not.
justanotherfan last edited by
My only tweak to the depth chart would be questioning whether Frankamp would be the only other wing player behind Selden and Oubre (assuming Mason and Graham are the PGs). That fifth perimeter guy rarely gets many minutes, so it may be that Self goes with some versatility there over a guy like Greene, but he may go the other way to get some more size in the rotation.
I agree with the bigs rotation. I think we probably won’t see much change in that, barring injury.
I really hate the idea of Greene not seeing much action again this year. Any way that he is just in the dog house again? It seems like a guy who is 6’8 and can shoot should always see plenty of minutes, but what do I know.
justanotherfan last edited by
The problem is not Brannen Greene. Brannen Greene can play. He would be starting at 300+ D1 schools. He would be a rotation lock at all but a handful of the remaining programs. The problem is that this is Kansas. At Kansas, being 6-8 and a good shooter means you get a scholarship. It doesn’t mean you get to play.
There is a distinct possibility that KU could have to excellent shooters that are 6-7 or taller sitting on the bench for 30+ minutes a night. This is Kansas. Everything involved with the KU basketball program is elite. The players. The coaches. The facilities. The backups are even elite.
There are 200 minutes to go around each night. Selden is getting 30 of those. 170. Perry is getting at least 25. 145. Alexander is getting 25. 120. Whatever becomes of the PG situation, the Mason/Graham/ Frankamp trio will amount to at least 40. That’s 80 minutes left. Oubre is getting 20 something. Call it 57 left. We need a backup big man at 20 minutes a night minimum. Down to 37. That’s six rotation spots and we have less than 40 minutes left to pass out. We probably need at least one more big man, a wing player, and some minutes where we play two of our small guys at once. That probably takes care of the last 37 minutes.
Reality is that either Svi or Brannen won’t be in the rotation this year. We already know that one of the Mickelson/Lucas/Traylor group won’t be in the rotation. There’s a decent chance that one of the Mason/Graham/Frankamp group won’t play much. Tubby Smith would love to have the loser in each of those battles at Texas Tech this year. They would probably play 25 minutes or more. But this isn’t Texas Tech. This is Kansas. Some really good basketball players will not be able to crack this rotation.
@justanotherfan All very good points. All true. No doubt about it. Honestly I am probably just hoping that we have some guys this year who can knock down 3’s on a regular basis and it seems like Greene is one of those guys. Perhaps his D is not as elite as Oubre and Selden. To me our best teams (in my opinion 2008 and 2011) had a number of guys on the perimiter who could hit 3’s. I hope that if Greene rides the pine this year that Selden, Oubre and whoever is playing PG can knock down shots.
@justanotherfan Also, I think Jamari is a lock for big minutes.
Self quoted as saying Brannen Greene’s defense isnt where it needs to be at this point. Also notice all the quotes from Oubre (and his 7’2" wingspan) talking about “defense first”, “let my offense be fed from my D”, and “learning Self’s system”. Greene needs to follow the party line, & use his famed ‘orneriness’ on opponents and not in trying to buck the system. Or he’ll go the way of Andrew White.
Heck, in terms of what Oubre said last week…Self himSelf said those phrases almost verbatim back in 2004! Nice to know the philosophy that has him &ku as the winningest program the last 6yrs is still alive, well, & being actively stoked by daBill, especially after last season’s lessons only reinforce his msg.
When Self made the comment about running 9 he clearly mentioned that the 9 could change from game-to-game.
I think he will rotate a couple of guys out to give at least some PT to Greene, Svi and Lucas on a per-game basis.
He mentioned that he made a mistake last year by not planning PT better so guys would pick up more experience and increase the depth chart of the team.
Another thing… that scrimmage didn’t decide anything for who will play when the season starts. PT will be decided from now until then from practice session performances, and then will add real game experience to seeing who stays in what spot for what amount of time. This scrimmage was really just for fan and recruits benefit only… and it’s a fun thing to run for the players.
Regarding other Self quotes in the last few days: CFrankamp will NOT be PG. Basically, Self said CF “could play a little PG”, but he wants more dynamic play-making & ballhandling out of the PG position (& that logic would seem to limit Selden’s possible Smartlike PG role also). The winners appear to be Mason (no surprise), and Graham (nice leadership surprise, even endorsed by a USMC analyst).
My personal gut feel is that what Self wants out of his ball-handling guards is the attributes of RussRob/Chalmers/Sherron/Tyshawn. Thats the mold. Got to be aggressive in all you do as a Self PG…the 4 guys I listed personified that.
CF is BStar with a quicker trigger, but minus 4inches and minus 25-30lbs. Which means he cannot guard “95% of opposing wings”, as Brady could.
CF = h.s. volume shooter, and was THE primary scoring option on his h.s. team. That will never happen on Self’s team: WildBill will not design his offense around CF. Intuitively, we know this. Self is also an inside-out guy, and last year’s team-worst 3% shooter “hitting 3 treys in 1 loss” (Stanford) isnt changing our steadfast Oklahoman’s approach to the game. CF would be a methodical, safe ball handler, who could feed the post and hit a 3 (maybe)…all attributes of Brady, minus the height and physicality of 190+ lbs. Think of this another way: what would Mason or VanVleet or Sherron or Tyshawn do to CF trying to guard them. Self does NOT want a matchup DISadvantage, if he can avoid it. Think of all the opponents we’ll face (in general), and Self likely has name and gamefilm on each opposing PG we’ll face. As he watches our kids play, he is wondering which PG & which primary backup PG will matchup with MOST opposing PGs, as you also need the starting PG’s chemistry to develop with the rest of the team. Gotta develop the ‘next level’ of teamball (ya know, the level we rarely achieved last year). Recall Tharpe was a much better 3gunner than CF, but Tharpe couldnt D most opponents.
I’m sorry to sound so critical, this PG search is just as important as Bowen picking Cummings over Cozart. CF would have been a star on a MVC team. You cannot hide CF from an opponent PG the size of Kane, Smart, Tyshawn, or even a Sherron. I am surprised Self recruited CF to this playstyle, and this sysyem’s requirements. He is most definitely NOT a pass-first PG like 6ft 160# A.Miles, nor is he a penetrating-quick guy like Sherron, Mason, or Tyshawn. And there is no game similarity to 6’1, 200# RussRob.
The AW3-type of final “nail” is that with CF about to become an experienced sophomore, Self goes and gets 6’1 Graham, and booted Tharpe to create a roster opening for Graham. Just like AW3 saw more versatile wings come in and take his mpg.
The subpar PG play simply had to get better, and y’all witness Self’s words + actions expose totally his feelings on CF: not Self’s PG.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@ralster: Solid post. You said, “I am surprised Self recruited CF to this playstyle, and this sysyem’s requirements. He is most definitely NOT a pass-first PG like 6ft 160# A.Miles, nor is he a penetrating-quick guy like Sherron, Mason, or Tyshawn. And there is no game similarity to 6’1, 200# RussRob.”
Me too. I’m quite sure there is an archive post of mine where I made a similar observation as well. Mine came after CF committed, Self said very specifically that he needed to sign a “point guard.” That told me that Self did not think CF was a point guard. And with that, he was a wildly undersized 2 guard.
But basketball players are basketball players. Size, shape, etc. If you’re a player, you can play. That is another concern for me with CF. Self just commented about how CF needed to be a player, and not just a shooter.
Lots of logical thoughts that say CF might get the short end of the stick. Players sometimes overcome logic. We’ll see if he’s a player.
@ralster Conner can play. He will earn playing time. He is too good. Quick hooks can affect shooting percentage. Being left in the game, can lead to comebacks against a team like Stanford in the tourney. I enjoyed reading your post, you brought up a lot of good points. Thanks.
KansasComet last edited by KansasComet
@HighEliteMajor I wonder what Self’s track record is on recruits that commit after their sophomore year of High School as far as playing time and transfers?
@TheDrunkenJhawk Unless he is a medical redshirt, Lucas will play, and play well. Year 3 is usually where big men take off in Coach Self’s system.
“Regarding other Self quotes in the last few days: CFrankamp will NOT be PG. Basically, Self said CF “could play a little PG”, but he wants more dynamic play-making & ballhandling out of the PG position”
I think Self wants Conner to focus on hitting the long ball. Yeah… he was a volume scorer in HS, and that means getting the shot up every so many seconds. You are right, CF can’t be a volume scorer at Kansas so he has to learn to hit a higher percentage when taking fewer shots.
Conner at point not only requires Conner to focus on developing his PG skills, it also limits his ability to score. His best chance of being a contributor is to hit the long ball. That is going to take a lot of work, because if he does start nailing the long ball, teams will quickly take it away from him and make him earn it. Since he’s short, he has to be really open to hit his shot and eventually that will probably take him coming off screens to get open. I don’t think people realize how much skill it takes to be really good at creating the open shot off of screens. Typically, you have to successfully fake the defender before running through the screen, or catch him asleep or caught up somewhere or timing it right for your screen man to “close the door.” There really aren’t many skilled players that can constantly create an open shot off the screen. Ray Allen is one of those guys that can do it well.
Conner will have to learn a lot of technique in several areas to become an impact player for Kansas, but I feel sure he will succeed.
Nice sentiments of hope for CF to “work on his PG skills” and hope that he “can work on his 3 ball”. There lies the rub, though. In the few times CF got put in the game, and they run a 3att play for him, he just couldnt hit it. Contrast that with the same occasional 3att plays run for Conner Teahan as a frosh…and Teahan hit those rare 3att. Same for Brannen Greene, in the few times he got to play, he hit his 3looks (better than CF). My point here is there are better, bigger, more potential-containing guys on the KU roster. We fans cannot help Frankamp in his serious battle for mpg against his own teammates. Nothing against CF, but I’m just playing the odds (like a certain Oklahoman coach we all know) and betting that bigger, faster, more capable teammates may beat out little CF.
Also, recall that not every frosh has to “work” on his skills the way it is suggested CF should. And isnt that very suggestion a defacto admission that, yes, CF is lagging behind the performance curve?
Unwittingly, Self put poor CF in a disadvantaged competetive position due to the nature of Self’s own recruiting. Let me further note that Self’s current recruiting uptick is almost ruthless by design: only the most capable & versatile players will play…and whoever is the oddman out can redshirt or transfer, as AW3 did.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
Ok, let me ask this … If the game is chaotic. Mason has some TT moments where the ball flies every which way. Graham is tentative and act like a freshman. What does coach Self do?
Enter CF. If you needed things settled down, needed to stabilize things, what player on this team do you trust more to do that?
One thing we know about coach Self is that he does like security blankets here and there. He doesn’t mind risk at the point (see TT), and values playmaking. But you never know how things work out.
I agree with @KansasComet in that I think that if he were simply allowed to play, his three point percentage would go up. He’s obviously a 40% three shooter (at least I think that). But to @ralster’s point, Brannen Greene is likely as well.
Just when we think there is no way, there becomes a way. Graham twists an ankle, Mason decides to skip class, Oubre dislocates his shoulder, Selden borrows Marcus’ BB gun. You never know.
Heck, by March, we might wonder how we could get along without him.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by
PG is not Frankamp’s forte. Yes, in a pinch he can play PG and be a decent one at that; however, to get to the next level, i.e. [past the first weekend at the NCAA, you need superior PG play and Frankamp is just not it. Just about every team that makes it to the Final Four has superior PG play; RussRob was a superior college PG that was undervalued because of the other, better known players on the '08 team.
Your comparisons are correct about Conner.
I think it mostly points to him being a volume scorer in HS. I’ve watched a lot of those guys play and many of them can’t hit the broad side of a barn until they get up 10 or so shots.
Maybe Conner needs to put in more reps before a game. They need someone to spot him so he can get up more shots in rapid fire during warmups.
He may also suffer from depth perception issues. A lot of these guys shoot well in HS but take time to adjust to D1 because the venues are so much larger. Turns out their ability to gauge depth relates to more than focusing in on a target (the rim), but some guys also use the peripheral space around the target to assess depth, too. Playing in a bigger venue means the rims are buffered with a lot more air space. When you play in most HS gyms, there are physical objects directly behind the goal… seating decks, walls, etc. It is known that many shooter’s minds use all that information (even if just on a subtle level) in their computer-like mind to make instantaneous judgments on depth.
I’d make sure Conner gets unlimited practice reps in a big venue. He should be shooting in AFH most of the time and not practice gyms that have structure close by to the goal.
wrwlumpy last edited by
Self was on 610 this a.m. and said there would be less high/low this year because of the size factor and that ball handling and speed will be the priority on offense. This seems to be the big factor in Greene being used only when opponents have the big boys in. I don’t think Brandon will be left out of the minutes this year.
@HighEliteMajor Excellent points. Bottom line is we don’t know what will happen during the course of the season. No one predicted Embiid getting hurt last year or the blowout at WVU. Hopefully it will be fun finding out. I am not the least bit worried about Conner Frankamp on the offensive end. He can hold his on. He has excellent footwork with the ball and plays within himself. He can pass, and he can get in the lane. I think he is being motivated by Self, which should be a good thing. He was set up to fail last year, with the quick hooks. In a meaningful game with a chance to play, he showed what he can do. Shoot his team back into contention on a National Stage. I will take that any day of the week. Remember “Mario’s Miracle”? Everybody is not capable of taking, much less making that shot. I think players like Conner Frankamp and Brannen Greene are up to the challenge.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
Re: Depth chart based on late night scrimmage (1 vote) when i want KU hoops knowledge I only go to one source - KUBUCKETS.COM
Found on a another website.
Frank Mason/Devonté Graham/Conner Frankamp Wayne Selden/Conner Frankamp/Frank Mason Kelly Oubre/Wayne Selden Perry Ellis/Jamari Taylor Cliff Alexander/Hunter Mickelson
Did not make rotation: Greene, Mykhailuik, and Lucas
Got this from the phog.net