LATE NIGHT IS HERE!!!!
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I agree about Brannen in the sense that it is not an encouraging sign to start on the bench. That being said, I still think he is more important to this team. I’d rank he and Lucas both higher on your power rankings.
I’d put Lucas ahead of Mickelson. Coach talked really highly of Lucas at media day, and Lucas has length that our other bigs don’t. It’s tough to ask him to contribute against Texas and Kentucky if he’s not playing regular minutes. And we will need him in those games. I think if Lucas can rebound as well as Hunter, he beats him out for a rotation spot. In fact, he may also provide more value than Jamari.
Brannen needs to get it together, because we will need his shooting on the floor. In my mind, four starting spots are full - Frank, Wayne, Perry and Cliff. Late night scrimmage aside, this is not a lineup that will demand a lot respect from the perimeter. I’d prefer to start Brannen and then have Kelly be the first player off the bench.
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@HighEliteMajor Nicely done! Now you have to do one of these kind of posts every week. And if you can get any info on practices, then 2 per week!
I haven’t got to watch it yet. Did they run any “stuff” in the scrimmage, or was it more of a pick-up game? When they start running “stuff” then we’ll get a clearer picture of who’s getting pt. If you botch one HCBS’s out-of-bounds plays or out-of-a-timeout plays, that’s a quick way to ride pine for a while.
I did see the stat sheet. I wonder how much of Svi’s numbers can be attributed to nerves.
How about Selden’s explosiveness, is he 100% from the surgery?
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@jayhawkbychoice I think Selden said he was close.
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@Crimsonorblue22 It would’ve been nice to see Hunter but ESPN took care of that. I was shocked by the box score, as I only saw him grab a board or two, and hit one shot, after ESPN declared the “event has ended”. I must’ve missed most of what he did. The box score looks nice. though.
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@HighEliteMajor Speaking of Tarik Black, did you see what he did on Thursday? NBA preseason game - 26 min. 10 points/ 15 boards for the Rockets?
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Did everyone see the big quote from Self today:
“I thought they were OK. Frank has improved a lot. Devonté is a solid guy. They were fine. Conner is not really a point. He can play some point. He made some there late (in hitting three of five shots). All three bring something different to the table. All did fine.”
So, there you have it. He’s right. CF is not a point guard. If Self chose 2 of the the 3 for the rotation, CF could not be a part of it. If he’s not a PG, how could he be expected to play for stretches when the other PG is on the bench?
You can’t have a guy like CF running the point for large stretches. He had just 15 assists in 225 minutes last season, an assist to minute played rate less than Selden and nearly half that of Mason. He’s just too careful. His skill set is not that of a playmaker. Having a guy like that running point, while ok for small stretches, is like having a governor on your team – you can’t reach maximum overdrive.
CF is battling Brannen Greene for PT, and that 5th perimeter rotation spot. That’s what I think right now.
@jayhawkbychoice I just got to watch it once, real speed, not rewind – but yes, they seemed to be trying to run some things, that was pretty clear, but it was more scrimmage like. On Svi, I thought he kind of over-shot. Could have passed more. Selden looked great to me.
@KUSTEVE I saw that … good guy. Hope he makes it.
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Thanks HEM, it’s good that they start practicing “stuff” early. Execution will be key this year. Not as much margin for error.
Mason is clearly who Self wants as the starter. As long as he plays under control and is not too fast for the rest of the team, he’s the man. He would have had to not improve at all to lose the job. The real question is who is first off the bench. Assuming a starting perimeter lineup of Mason, Selden, and Oubre. When the first subs come in is it Graham for Mason? Graham for Selden, with he or Mason sliding over to the 2? Or Graham for Oubre, with Selden sliding to the 3?
Or it could be CF coming in at the 2, or at the 1 for Mason for a minute, then sliding back to the 2 to give Seldon or Oubre a breather?
Of course, defensives needs could dictate that, but I’ll wait for these guys to face live rounds before I make any judgments on who is better at that. Who is more versatile on the perimeter? Who ever it is has to be able to stretch the floor to give our bigs and opposite wing more room to work in the lane.
With Self talking about playing 2 small guards a lot, is he talking about Mason and Graham, or Mason and CF? That first guard off the bench is more than just being a point guard. I guess in a perfect world each of the 3 perimeter player would have their own backup, but that’s a 6 man perimeter rotation, that’s not going to happen.
We definitely have lots of injury insurance!!!
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Hunter reminds me of Cole! He needs more reps just to get his timing down better… but I think he’s going to be an important member of this team!
Perry looked okay… but I’m not giving Perry any free passes this year. He’s a junior on a team with a bunch of freshmen and sophomores and Perry needs to bring a dominant role to this team.
Wayne looked friggin’ fantastic! Total beast!
Cliff is a total beast but Self is trying to restrain him slightly until he learns to play without fouling.
Brannen put some weight on his upper body, but he needs a few pounds on his skinny legs. Still needs to bring his center of gravity down about a foot!
Svi looked like he needs more strength and he definitely needs to shift his style of play from Euroball to D1. Self’s discipline will do him some good.
I was amazed at the speed of this team. Obviously, they all had plenty of adrenaline but wow!
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@drgnslayr Cliff does look good. Real good. Selden looked terrific. Personally, I think we have seen a transformation with this team. It’s a much different team. I am 100% convinced that Self realized that Tharpe was the anti-Self ball guard, and thus his departure. Tough decisions. Not pretty. But it had to be done.
There seem to be two clear finesse players: Ellis and Frankamp. But I think we can handle that.
@jayhawkbychoice I think you’ve identified exactly what Self will do … situationally, he’ll sub in Graham for anyone of the three, but my guess is he’ll sub Graham in for Oubre. That gives us our two ballhandler/playmaker look, and Selden stays. I bet that’s the more predominant pattern, adjusted based on fouls or game flow.
Then the battle between CF and Greene. Who’s next? Early in the season, that 5th perimeter guy may get more minutes and a 6th guy will get some minutes too. But I could see the next perimeter sub being CF in for Frank, Oubre for Selden – Graham, CF, Oubre – for a stretch.
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I have been saying for a while that Frankamp can be a serviceable PG but not the one that can get you to the next level. His most likely spot is as a dedicated 3 point shooter that can be used to break zones with outside shooting and crisp passing; however, he first has to develop into a reliable outside shooter, something we have only seen flashes of so far.
Bonus question: You have Greene as #10 in the rotation; how do you think he would be doing this year had Wiggins not played ta KU last season? I think he would be about the same since his main competition is Oubre, Selden (when he plays 3) and maybe Svi. No way he is ahead of Selden or Oubre and does not look like Svi will get much playing time anyway.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think the highest probability is that Andrew White is starting. Is that crazy?
But the point of your question is whether Greene would be better than Oubre now, if he had played last season. I hedge. Maybe. Self saying last week that Greene needs to buy in on defense is the only reason I hedge. That bothers me. Otherwise, if Wiggins wasn’t here, and Greene beat out White, I think he plays early over Oubre. Then it’s a matter of how quickly Oubre progresses. But Oubre is an incredible talent. The realization of that talent with a freshman is why I don’t like OADs. Freshmen have to develop. And it is a process.
The on court development Greene would have had, under fire, cannot be underestimated, which I think allows for a huge leap freshman to sophomore season. Self has said Greene is an NBA player. If so, I would have expected that leap. But being circular here, I don’t think Oubre is here if Wiggins wasn’t here – as I think you suggested earlier when discussing recruiting.
All that said, Oubre looks pretty darn good to me. He looks like a terrific fit for Self. Can I be a bit dramatic here … he could be the best fit at the 3 that Self has ever had. Kind of Travis Releford with a higher skill level. Problem is, all that may not be realized in just one season.
Which brings me back to the preference of skipping OADs. If Oubre stays two seasons, it’s a completely different ballpark. I think he could be the best 3 we’ve had here since Pierce (yes, better than Rush). While that talent may be realized this season, I think it most certainly would in year two.
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I seem to remember discussing the transfer situation before and the consensus, if you can call it that, was that either White or Greene would have to transfer since they were on a collision course and only one would survive to contribute at KU. Obviously everything here is just conjecture, but wouldn’t you think that since White left and Greene stayed, Coach Self likely thinks that Greene is more likely to contribute than White would have been had he stayed?
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@JayHawkFanToo White is one year ahead of Greene. He has only 2 years of eligibility left, so it was transfer now or never.
Greene can afford to wait one more year and see what happens.
By the way, Self recently said to a relative that Greene would wind up in the NBA no matter what Self does.
If only we could have had Greene’s talent and White’s attitude in the same player…
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@HighEliteMajor IMO Bill’s trying to push Greene’s buttons. Hope it’s the right one. If he dyes his hair red, I’ll just wave goodbye. Be a cryin shame cause he’s a phenomenal talent with, as slayr says, “the chip.”
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I’m a huge fan of Brannen. But I don’t think his game is anything near where it should be. The guy can shoot the lights out, and we are all attracted to that.
But IMHO he should have worked more on his leg strength over the summer instead of his upper body. He may have the worst lateral capabilities on the team. He can probably run fast in a straight line, but I don’t think he can cut well or keep his feet under him while he stays in front of a quick ball handler.
I’ve seen guys like him before… with legs that are hard to build strength and coordination. I wonder if he his one of those guys. I was a bit in that same boat as a player, too. It was easy for me to build my upper body and difficult to build mass and strength in my legs.
I’m pretty sure Brannen’s heart is in the right place and he loves KU, but if he has a mechanical issue it will be tough to overcome.
I’d put that kid in a 4-foot pool and make him run and cut for hours. It’s a good way to build strength, speed and coordination in his lower body. And the buoyancy will help him develop habits to bend his knees more. His center of gravity is too high.
Another good option would be dance school.
It will be a real shame if he doesn’t get this worked out because he has an immense talent in this game and could easily become a solid NBA player.
That’s just my humble opinion only…
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@drgnslayr don’t you think KU staff-Hudy, is aware of his mechanics? Hopefully he’s better! I don’t know why, I usually back the defensive guys, but I really like this kid???
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@HighEliteMajor "All that said, Oubre looks pretty darn good to me. He looks like a terrific fit for Self. Can I be a bit dramatic here … he could be the best fit at the 3 that Self has ever had. Kind of Travis Releford with a higher skill level. Problem is, all that may not be realized in just one season."
He is a pure warrior. Instantly one of my favorite players. His attitude will bring him great success. He isn’t going to have to contend with the massive media hype that Wigs had last year, and expectations for him won’t be over the top like it was for Wigs. He also has a more experienced team where he won’t have to be the star every night. What has me giddy is his commitment to defense. Here’s the pull quote from KU Sports interview:
“I take pride in defense. Taking pride in defense … that’s what every team needs,” Oubre said. “Teams win championships on the defensive end. I use defense to push start the rest of my game, to get my intensity level up, to get myself hyped. Getting stops … it’s a great feeling.”
The box score for Late Night showed he scored 5 points, had 3 boards ( 1 off rebound), 1 steal, 1 block, and 1 assist. That’s some tall cotton there, folks.
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I hope Hudy has an answer for him. Brannen could be our best defender (easily) if he can work out his mechanics. He’s a great shooter and we all like that… but I think he has some magic that we all sense. He has some plays inside him like when Sherron stole the ball and then hit the 3 that setup Mario’s winner. We all feel like Brannen sees things other players don’t see. He has a bit of Larry Bird in him.
If he could suddenly become our best lateral player that guy would dominate the game and KU would be a tougher out than Kentucky in March. There is that much potential if he could resolve his mechanics. He better spend 4 hours a day in the pool and in dance classes. It would take something like that kind of discipline and work ethic to become the player he could be.
I hope someone is showing him the big picture… how to take his game from A to B. I kind of felt like that was the issue with AW3. He was a guy with a different hill to climb and I don’t think we got him focused where he needed to be.
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@drgnslayr “AW3…was a guy with a different hill to climb and I don’t think we got him focused where he needed to be.” If true, that is very sad because he didn’t lack focus! You really think his tremendous effort was not in the right direction?
By the way, really like the “hill to climb” metaphor - and not just because I was in San Francisco a week ago
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I really don’t. We all saw how he built body mass. He put a ton of reps in to build mass. That didn’t seem to earn him PT.
I think he would have served himself better (and us) to work on his toolbox.
Instead of putting all that time in on weight reps, what if he would have put that time in on perfecting scoring moves and developing “hot spots” on the floor where he refined his shooting (and do it within the framework of our offense so we can capitalize it within Self’s offense)? What if he spent all his extra time trying to become a better defender?
My heart ached when we lost AW3, because I saw him sort of like how I see Greene… both with a lot of talent, but not finding a way to EXECUTE their talents. Both of these guys have the ability to be big-time scoring machines!
A guy I do think will figure it out is Conner. He has an uphill climb, but I think he has the mind to figure out how he can contribute to the team and earn minutes. Just a hunch I believe in.
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I hear all this talk about Greene’s potential,. shooting skill, sure to play on the NBA, but so far he has not even been able to break into the starting line up and, if comments on this forum are an indicator, not likely to get a lot of playing time in the upcoming season.
Is it just wishful thinking in our part? Will he be a contributor in his third and fourth year? If this is the case, have we overestimated his true potential? Is Greene “all sizzle and no steak” as the expression goes? I am nor really sure where he stands right now, but hopefully after a few games we should have a better idea.
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@JayHawkFanToo Just a question here, then … if Self recruited White and he’s worthless to our program. And Self recruited Greene, and he is so flawed he can’t play … what does that say? Who overestimated what?
Does anyone really think that Andrew White or Brannen Greene would have been colossal failures if they would have manned the three spot last season? Two top 50 guys would have flopped? No way.
And do we think if either went to another program, that they wouldn’t be able to function effectively in Big 12 play?
Really, it’s all about opportunity. Self chose not to play White. Self chose the have Greene play limited minutes. He viewed Wiggins as a better option.
But that does not mean that either or both – White or Greene – wouldn’t have blossomed into excellent players. Heck, White was doing great in the first 4 of 5 games and then found the bench (he only got 4 minutes vs. Duke).
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@JayHawkFanToo wishful on my part!
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I am not at all saying the either player was worthless to the program and I have no problem with your logic. All I am saying is that neither player really blossomed at KU, although the jury is still out on Greene, wouldn’t you agree?
Talent is overestimated all the time. Look at all the players that UK has/had and how many really made a big difference in college and the NBA. Poythress is a great example. How well a McD All-American plays in HS against kids that work at McD does not always translate to high success at the next level.
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree – the way things work out, Greene could be a starter by the end of the year. Injuries, attitude, suspensions, great performances. Lots of time.
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I haven’t found a link yet with the full scrimmage, but here’s one with some good highlights.
