My biggest concern for this season??? The Joe Dooley Factor
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@globaljaybird I appreciate the kind words. If our litmus test is “do we match up with Kentucky”, the answer is going to be no. No one else in college bb matches up with them, either. Heck, there are more than a few pro teams that would find it hard to match up with them. Still, the Mildcats managed to get beat by UCONN, so there is truly more than one way to skin a Cat. A few observations I’d like to add :
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We weren’t tough last year. Remember what JellyBelly (Ridley) did to us in Austin last year? Against Embiid? I know, Embiid was playing hurt in that game.But, it’s not like he had the body to keep Tubby McGursky off the blocks if he had been 100%. Do we honestly feel like Cliffie is going to be that much worse? I certainly don’t. As for extending bootcamp from 1 to 2 weeks, me likey.
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Perry Ellis and defense. I know, I know, I know. I wish God had made his arms about 4 inches longer. At least he isn’t nicknamed Tyrannosaurus Rex, like Julius Randle. Reports have come in that Perry worked on his defense over the break, so we can hope his improvements in his game include a head fake or two, and better defense.
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@KUSTEVE I don’t know about you, but I think Mikelson & possibly Lucas get some of Ellis’ minutes if he’s not considerably improved on D. We know Traylor will get some at the 4/5, but we all know his ceiling may also be imminent. IMO depending on how the refs call the games this year, with Cliff a newbie & all, Perry has got to step up or somebody will be in the rear view mirror for extended duty. Likely it will be by committee at first, but we know, albeit somewhat painfully, Self likes to have his rotation set as early as he can. Like slayr said Perry has to be a leader this year-will it be vocally or by example? Either way it’s primetime to step up or aside. For all the spin of playing small, that’s not what Bill likes & is only a viable option on very few occasions. Necessity is the mother of invention, but Bill is a creature of habit playing the hi lo, so it’s time for guys to demand of themselves, much improved production at the 4/5 spots & that begins on the defensive end.
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@KUSTEVE I also dig that avatar. Jethro’s real life Dad, Max Baer Sr, was one time Heavyweight Champion of the World & also had a brother that fought professionally. Max Sr is rated #22 on Ring Magazine’s list of 100 greatest punchers of all time. Pretty damn good pedigree if I may say so.
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@globaljaybird When I saw Mickelson’s vertical jump had increased 6 inches under Hudy, I quit worrying about our “lack of a rim protector”. You have a Div 1 shotblocker who gains 6 inches in the air - Holy cow. I think he becomes essential to us. I like the meat and bones aspect of Cliffie. The dude is w-i-d-e. Jamari certainly needed to work on his defense, which I hope he did over the summer. Love that kid. And our guy Perry. Perry doesn’t seem to pick things up quickly - it seems to take him awhile to process everything. But once he does get it, he has it down pat. It took him almost his entire freshmen year to contribute, but once he did begin to contribute, he has never looked back. Maybe becoming a better defender is simply the next progression. At least, that’s my hope…
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@globaljaybird “I also dig that avatar. Jethro’s real life Dad, Max Baer Sr, was one time Heavyweight Champion of the World & also had a brother that fought professionally. Max Sr is rated #22 on Ring Magazine’s list of 100 greatest punchers of all time. Pretty damn good pedigree if I may say so.”
LOL. Love Jethro. Specifically his math skills…
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@KUSTEVE
Remember what we did to Ridley at home?
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After watching the bodyslam on Joel, he had this coming. Just about my favorite moment of the season.
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This post is deleted!
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@JayhawkRock78
And then this happened. My favorite too!
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Thought I was getting pretty good at adding pics! Guess not!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I had forgotten that. BOO-YAH!!! BTW, did you like my nickname for Ridley …“Tubby McGursky”?
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I know pictures can deceive because they freeze but one of many moments in time, but there is something about that picture of Snacks, Joel and Andrew that gets at the essential difference between Joel and Andrew. It is in their facial expressions…in their eyes. Joel looks like he would tear the back end out of a rhino. The other looks like he would complain about the rhino.
It is going to be so interesting to see how these two young men fare in the NBA. Joel’s knee may prevent us from ever seeing him at his best. But if his knee heels, it is going to be interesting, as I said, how each young man does.
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@jaybate-1.0 I think you thinketh to much! They were going crazy and having so much fun!! Embiid was probably especially happy due to his throw down in Texas!
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Ok I’m jumping in.
Couple of things here. One KU was a very (and I mean very young team) last year. Two KU had a very key injury with Embiid. Coaching can fix that.
Last but not least KU played a killer schedule last year.
Hope is not lost though. As KU only lost two player last year to the league. Meaning this team is a year older and shouldn’t have to depend on OAD’s to save the day. Not to say Oubre and The thunder Alexander won’t be studs, it’s just the game shouldn’t hang in the balance and on their shoulders.
In my opinion this upcoming KU team has the right balance of incoming and returning players. Meaning the newbies can struggle a little and not cost KU victories.
Gentleman no coach is perfect. HCBS has his flaws. (not giving bench players a little more time on the floor). However as the old saying goes I trust in Self. I believe somebody had spoken about HCBS coming into his own. I believe this might be the season.
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Gosh… did that really happen just 6 months ago? Seems like a loooong timeeee agooooo!
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@DoubleDD Good post! Agreed.
“Couple of things here. One KU was a very (and I mean very young team) last year. Two KU had a very key injury with Embiid. Coaching can fix that.”
Exactly, coaching should have fixed that. They knew we were going to be without Embiid for the tournament.
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@jayhawkbychoice Tarik came really close to filling in for Embiid, if it wasn’t for a really bad call, he might have pulled it off! Ellis and Traylor just had really bad games! Wiggs too!
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I really hate using the Embiid injury as an excuse. It may be a reason, but not an excuse. And for everybody that want’s to give the coaching staff a pass on not being ready for Stanford (already knowing that Embiid wasn’t going to play) I ask this, what if Embiid had really been a 2-3 year project like he was thought to be? Would we have lost 15 games? There should have been a backup plan. Maybe not a good enough plan to win a championship, but enough to get out of the second round.
My big beef is lack of player development within the season. Another example being Wiggs spin move in the lane. He had an awesome spin move, and halfway through the conference season, everyone knew it. I remember screaming at my TV, after Wiggs spun in the lane and had the ball stripped for the 15th time, “can’t somebody on that coaching staff spend about an hour with him and come up with another move, at least one, just to mix it up!”
And as others have said, Perry is the worst post defender HCBS has ever had. But I digress.Bill Self said last year that for x-mas he wanted: health, toughness, and a little outside shooting. He got none of it. Some of that is fate, some the players fault, some the coaching staffs fault. So, the x-mas list should be the same this year and lets hope that he’s been good this year!
Interesting stuff, one and all. I guess from this last week we could probably all agree that to win a title this year we just need to be better. Better guard play. Better post play (especially defense). Better coaching. We’re hearing good stuff about Mason this summer, good stuff about Perry, and I think the fact that boot camp is back to 2 weeks is a good sign for the coaching decisions. Sounds like a National Championship year to me, at least until it’s not!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yeah he came really close. It was a real positive thing to see him play with such heart his last game. I will always hold him in high regard for the effort he showed.
It’s was just a sad end to a season where we all had such high hopes. KU’s best recruiting class, the number 1 and number 3 draft picks, the best head coach in basketball and like I said in an earlier post; “we were relying on Mason to drive and kick (which Perry and Traylor couldn’t finish), Black to show some heart and toughness, and the shooting of an undeveloped CF. Now that’s not KU basketball, and I’m sure HCBS would agree.”
I know I probably sound to critical and have unreal expectations, but hey, I’m a Jayhawk fan, one of many of the best fans in the world!
Oh, one more thing, it’s Constitution Day! Maybe I should have put this on my last post, but oh well, I think it fits with this discussion we’re having. A quote from Thomas Jefferson:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”
I will always question with boldness everything as long as our seasons end in disappointment.
Rock Chalk!
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@jayhawkbychoice so, do you think coach didn’t develop CF? I just get really tired of fans bagging on wigs! Outstanding rep for KU, scoring records, played great defense( who else did?) played team ball, and got to the FT line. I saw his TO’s. I really think some of our fans want him to bomb.
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That you sayeth I thinketh too much maketh thou not the firsteth alias, or person, to have saideth that to me.
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@jaybate-1.0 that was me! I thinketh!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well, on CF, I don’t think he was ever developed enough to be effective with the team with what skills he had to offer. He certainly didn’t get the minutes that Naa and Mason got. And with more minutes during the course of the season he may have developed better chemistry with the starters. I cited a couple of examples in my PG thread. IMHO, and I don’t claim to be an expert, CF had some kind of confidence issues in playing or at least attempting to play HIS game when on the floor, until the last two games of the year. (which I described in detail on the PG thread) Now I don’t know if this lack of confidence issue was coach induced or self afflicted by CF himself, however, I think the coach could have done more to help him through that whether it be through “freedom to go make a play” or let him play through some mistakes, or run some set plays to free him up so he could “see the ball go in”, etc. Maybe coach had him in a toughing box of some sort, I don’t know. I do believe that player development is a two-way street, both player and coach share some responsibility in that. And for whatever reason CF didn’t seem to be as good as he should’ve been, at PG or 2 guard. The point of my post above is that it couldn’t have been the coaches game plan to use CF, Black, Mason, and Traylor to march through the tournament, after a season of relying on Embiid, Wigs, Perry, and Selden. So something must have went wrong in the game plan the last two games.
On Wigs, I wasn’t trying to bag on Wigs. All those things you mentioned that he did was great. He’s a good kid and I hope he does great things in the L. Again my frustration was with the coaching staff. Someone should have helped him develop another move to compliment his spin move, because it was always just a matter of time before other teams and coaches took that move away. In fact in a larger scope, the coaches should have prepared the team for the time when other coaches would eventually take him out of the game, like they did towards the end of the season. Relying on one guy, no matter how good he is seldom works, and that’s on the coaching staff one way or another.
I’m not sure if I’m very good at this posting and getting my thoughts together and points made, but if you look at my 3 threads on my concerns for this season it all fits together. Fixing the problems we had last year, what we added for this year, and what needs to be done better by all of the above. Hopefully that equation adds up to a championship. I don’t think I have all the answers, but if the right questions don’t get asked then solutions are never found. I’m just offering my take to both the right questions and the right answers.
Great conversation! Thanks for engaging with me. Believe me, I learn more from being wrong and taking in what all you guys say. I can’t wait to see how next season plays out.
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Yes, yes, I was laughing so hard while I was typing I hit the wrong ampersand alias.
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'I really hate using the Embiid injury as an excuse. It may be a reason, but not an excuse. And for everybody that want’s to give the coaching staff a pass on not being ready for Stanford (already knowing that Embiid wasn’t going to play) I ask this, what if Embiid had really been a 2-3 year project like he was thought to be? Would we have lost 15 games?"
First… Embiid WAS a 2-3 year project. He wasn’t ready to go to the league, but the hypemonster took over and he’s gone. Funny… his family didn’t need money and he claimed to not be chasing it, but he didn’t hesitate to jump WAY TOO EARLY!
Imagine an Embiid that was really ready to go the league?
I thought the injury was a poor excuse to go early. He will be at a much higher risk now in the league. And if he gets off on the wrong foot, he’ll have troubles in the league, being traded every week to another team. Then, he isn’t settling in to a team, loses valuable esteem, and won’t meet up to his salary demands. Pile on top of that another injury. Let’s say he goes down this year. He will then have “injures easily” as part of his rep.
If his family was starving then I could see why he would take the NBA bait too soon.
Still… your post is solid, and we were not prepared for Stanford. This team was too soft. And we didn’t have a leader who would step up, especially when we were down.
Would we have lost that game if we had Russell Robinson or Mario Chalmers at point?
I’m not trying to deflect the coaching responsibilities… but could Naa have been coached differently to become another Robinson or Chalmers? It didn’t seem like Naa was “getting it.”
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@jayhawkbychoice it’s alright to analysis a situation and come to some conclusions. However keep in mind some things are just what they are.
Could a better game plan be had in the Stanford game? Sure, but it’s easy to come to that conclusion looking back after time as passed. It’s the old we could’ve of done this or done that point of view. However in the heat of the moment things aren’t so clear.
I also want to say that you don’t coach an Embiiid type player. You either have one or you don’t. No amount of coaching is going to replace just the mere presence of Embiid stepping on the court. His size, wing span, athletic ability changes the whole game, and that’s with him not even touching the ball. This is not coaching it’s just a reality.
Now we both could make a case that HCBS could do more or less in how he coaches. We are fans and it is quite easy to nitpick and see things that are only obvious to us. I for one think HCBS doesn’t lean on his bench as much as he should. However I don’t walk in his shoes and all I can say is the guy is quite accomplished and successful. Think of it like this. If HCBS would’ve could’ve of knocked off UK in that championship game. He would be considered the best HC in the game hands down. Throw in another Championship some were and they would be building statues and putting his name with the great Wizard of Westwood.
My friend the line between being really good and greatness is always moving. Almost to the point I guy needs a little luck to get over it. Either way very few in this world even get to see that line, however HCBS has seen that line and that line flirts with HCBS it wants him. Say what you want about HCBS but remember this he’s knocking on the door of greatness.
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I hope we are kept abreast on that study in Hudy’s department where they are examining performance issues going into March. I believe we will find ways to help them max out in March.
If we do that, then everything points to other areas of preparation that need to change to have better outcomes in March.
I do think certain aspects will be hard to overcome. Anyone playing for Kansas will have super high expectations put on their shoulders… if not from the Jayhawk Nation, it will still exist from the rafters of AFH. You look up and see all that history, all those great names, and you BETTER feel the pressure to perform!
Then look at a school like Stanford. Can’t those guys just come out loose and play? They aren’t expected to win anything.
We need to find a way to address this aspect because it isn’t going away anytime soon. I believe it is even becoming more intense as we bring in all that top shelf talent that brings media along with them.
Everyone is watching… and I mean EVERYONE!
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@drgnslayr I’m pretty sure Stanford expected to win that game! They exploited what we didn’t have, Embiid!
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Very nicely done. No amount of coaching can replace a player like Embiid; You can abate the consequences some or a lot, but you cannot replace him unless you have an equally capable player on the bench.
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I agree with you about HCBS. I think he’s a great coach and I wouldn’t want any other. I also agree with you about Embiid’s presence.
So…lets take a quick inventory. We lost Embiid and Black and gained Big Cliff. We lost Naa and gained a soph. Mason and CF, and a freshman Graham. So are we coming out worse, or better, or breaking even? I think that is yet to be determined. (I’m assuming that we break even with the wing players) But I still feel that the ability of the coaching staff to develop our returning players and put these pieces together, as well as, their ability to scheme and make adjustments throughout the season is key and will be the biggest factor in whether the season ends in a championship or disappointment. Thus, the reasoning for this being my biggest concern. Just because I’m concerned doesn’t mean that I have lost faith and hope. My hope is for everyone on the team to up their game and that includes the coaches.
Wouldn’t it be cool to know which coaches did the scouting report for each game, and be able to track how the team played in each game. Just to see if there is any correlation.
Great conversation! Thanks to all you guys for engaging with me on this. This is has to be the greatest assembly of basketball minds anywhere!
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@JayHawkFanToo Embiid couldn’t be replaced. He’s a once in a life type player, even more so than Wiggs (and Wiggs was quite special). In some ways having Wiggs and Embiid really hurt the team concept of KU last season. Do you understand what I’m saying?
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@drgnslayr I was thinking of this sort of thing yesterday also.
We have good competition at almost every position. And this summer and in practices the players have to be looking over their shoulders and getting pushed. I always thought this sort of situation is good for the players, but I wonder if, once the season starts, it hurts the players ability to look ahead at the opponents on the floor. For instance, (this is just an example, made up by me) you have say Perry trying to do what it take to out play say Traylor, instead of focusing on out playing his matchup on the other team.
I have no idea on this. I guess it depends on the player. Any thoughts? Anybody?
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@jayhawkbychoice I know this will sound crazy, but I think this upcoming version of KU basketball will be better than last years version that included once in a life time type players like Embiid and Wiggs.
The reason being is this team will be a year older, and actually have 3 players that can play the point way better than Tharpe. I have nothing against Tharpe but I will never forget when he passed the ball to Embiid (who got double teamed)(imagine that) only to be surprised when the ball was passed back to him. A pass that hit him in the face. Really?
Like I previously posted I think this team is in HCBS wheel house. Enough returning talent that the Newbies don’t have to stress being the stars, or winning the game. This to me makes a world of difference. Our talented newbies can just go out and play their game. I like.
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@DoubleDD Agreed!!! Enough in his wheel house to pull out all his tricks and schemes. If the staff can give the players everything that the 08 bunch had, look out!!!
The pieces are there, everybody step up!
Rock Chalk!
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Hey @DoubleDD, check out what I just replied with to slayer and give me your thoughts. Please!!
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@jayhawkbychoice Well that depends? Now I’m going to share something with you I never voiced (yet always wondered). I’m starting to believe (the jury is still out in my warped mind) that a heavy talented team does more harm than a team that has a good five starters and a good sixth man. (talking tournament time here). It seems to me that teams with a lack of bench and only have a good starting five or star player do better in tournament time. As that team knows where there bread is buttered. I have no facts to back my claim.
I think you make a solid point but I’m not sure where the proof is? You’ll have to excuse me as I’ve drinking a few. It’s my Friday.
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@DoubleDD I think you’re on to something here. The only exception being the deep bench we had in 08’. But everyone on that team new their roles and that team had so many interchangeable parts. And, I think they (the players on that team) liked that fact, and liked playing with each other. Everyone seemed to have chemistry with everyone.
I’ve got a source that I talk to, and when fishing for info, I always ask him if all the player get along with each other, and who is buddies with who. I haven’t yet got enough info to make any sense of it yet, so the jury is still out.
This is my Friday too! For some reason I can’t post at work. I can see all of you guys and it shows that I’m logged in, but that’s all. (stupid government computers!) It kills me that I can’t get in on the conversations while there are happening. So I ended up staying up way too late every night my first week of posting. I got to figure something out because I love this site! This weekend will be all about spending time with the kids, but I’ll try to sneak in when I can.
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@jayhawkbychoice yea but even that 08 team had like 4 combo guards, and three bigs with Cole getting some spot minutes (though UNC would disagree LOL).
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@DoubleDD lol Yeah Cole had (at that time) exactly what he needed to have against UNC.
Many of you guys have talked about Self coming into his own as coach and about to step into greatness. You guys have all the historical knowledge to base that claim, and I agree. I wonder what it would be like for Self to have that team now! Holly cow! I also would’ve like to see Hinrich and Collison play for Self. They were great, but imagine how they would’ve been with Self as a coach!
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59 post, well 60 now, and no @HighEliteMajor ? I had really hoped he would get in on this one. I even tried to coax him out on the first post!
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I get what you are saying, KU did not have any one even close to replace Embiid so there really was not much Coach Self could do other than to change the game plan to one without him. Embiid is good, really, really good but I would not go as far as calling him a “once in life” type of player. We caught glimpses of his potential but what would have been the real test, did not come to pass due to his injuries. He might well end up being a Hall of Famer…or the next Greg Oden. Let;'shope is not the later.
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@JayHawkFanToo good point (very good point). However tell me you wouldn’t be licking your chops if Embiid stayed another year? Problem is or the fact of reality is that the NBA ruins great basketball players (but that’s another topic).
OK so I’ll delve a little into it. This whole OAD is the worst thing for a basketball player. Yea they get paid, but too often they never reach their full potential talent. The NBA being the professional game is also an unforgiven game.
I bet you could name more players than I that could’ve used more time in college to develop their game.
Embiid had a rare combination of talent and skills, however I’m afraid the NBA will destroy him. You know not good enough equals trade, trade, trade, trade, and trade. Not good for the self confidence, but hey he’s a millionaire.
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@DoubleDD " I know this will sound crazy, but I think this upcoming version of KU basketball will be better than last years version that included once in a life time type players like Embiid and Wiggs. "
That doesn’t sound crazy at all - mainly because it sounds like what I, and others said all last year. I don’t care who your OAD’s are - almost without exception they are not going to best a team that is made of experienced upperclassmen.
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I think it is good for these young men to have competition coming at them from every angle. I’m sure it creates a degree of chaos and may even sometimes test team chemistry… but their world is all about competing and they need to gain a sense of team work while also realizing they are alone in their pursuits for PT. They’ll have to go that part alone because no one else will win them PT but them.
Some guys get it. Being pushed on all sides creates the environment to motivate them to go up and beyond what they ever thought they could do. Other guys don’t get it and they never reach the level of play they could achieve because their attitudes (or something) gets in the way of their progress.
I don’t pretend to know what happened with Naa… but I have a feeling he wasn’t getting it. He didn’t "buy in.’ At times he seemed to get it and talked a mean game, but he didn’t walk the walk. The selfie clearly illustrated that. No one walking the walk would either be in that position or be in that position and document it and risk what eventually happened. I’m pretty sure that selfie was his last straw at Kansas.
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Man I’ve got to quit posting while drinking. :p
Talk about butchering the English language. I’m not even sure spell check could’ve of saved me. B|
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@DoubleDD better idea, don’t drink so much!
