More Jaquan Lyle Fodder
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Good reads on Lyle’s recruitment. I consistently find more targeted perspectives on recruiting from you guys than anywhere else on the web. KU Buckets attracts an elite contributor base.
@drgnslayr, I like your point about Tharpe welcoming the challenge. I think a lot of the folks who root for Tharpe to get lots of minutes don’t realize that he welcomes the challenge and ultimately wants his team to win.
@konkeyDong, Cliff as a TAD or THRAD?! I hope you’re right. Kind of assumed he was gone after one year.
@HighEliteMajor, Self must see something you don’t. Maybe @bskeet’s theory has some play.
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I do not want Jaquan Lyle fodder. I want Jaquan Lyle.
Doubts about Lyle puzzle me.
Since when doesn’t KU want a 6-4 combo to match up with long guards?
Heck, if the NCAA would permit it, I would like him to join the team for the rest of this season.
I also don’t think this needs to be framed as Lyle to replace Naa. Naa has had three superb games in the last 5 or 6 played. Naa has limitations, but its important to remember that no other point guard in the country has had to face as consistently high of a level of competition as Naa has faced. Part of Naa’s biggest problem has been having to learn on the job against the toughest schedule any team has played in the last ten years, or so.
Put Naa on Syracuse, or Arizona, any of the other highly ranked teams that have played much easier schedules, and Naa would look much, much, MUCH better.
And remember, this is coming from a board rat that said from the first time I saw him play in a KU uniform that Naa was going to struggle defensively, because of short legs.
Every new starter has a great deal of trouble staying dialed in February. T. S. Eliot said “April is the cruelest month,” only because he never played college basketball. February is the cruelest month. That’s about the time you are so fatigued that you have no idea how you are going to keep limping to the end.
So: back to Lyle. Lyle could play 10 mpg behind Naa and 10 mpg behind Selden, and maybe even 10 behind Oubre; that’s 30 mpg and 30 is all anyone needs. Lyle could easily eat into the current backups mpg rather than Naa. Or he could just come and sit out a year to get his grades sorted out and then weigh in afterwards.
But here is the real bottom line: Self loves defense. Self never wants to be this weak defensively ever again. Self has got too have a lock down defender at the 1, or 2, even if he doesn’t start all the time as a freshman. Self can never live through another defensive year like this. If he thinks Lyle can lock down either his first, or second, year at KU, then he will snap him up.
Offense starts with defense.
A year without lock down defense is a like a year without sex.
Of course it can be endured, but who would want to, if they could avoid it?
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I think Tharpe has the best attitude of any PG we have had during the Self era.
He only cares about his team. He’ll fight to become better for his team’s sake.
Attitude counts big… and Tharpe’s attitude gives him an advantage on anyone coming in. It is his attitude that has laid the path for him to become a starting PG at a blue blood school. He simply didn’t have enough game coming out of HS to reach this level easily.
I have tons of praise for him… but I’m like everyone else and I’m going to keep pushing him.
Tharpe is no where near his potential! He has so much more to bring to this game, but it will only be realized with heavy pushing.
I don’t think most fans realize how hard it is to improve drastically while playing D1 ball. It is hard enough to just keep up with the game… let alone, make big leaps in improvement.
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I think next season’s roster has room for Lyle.
Looking down the roster, we know that Black is gone. Wiggins is a OAD. Embiid is a top 5 pick, so I am considering him as good as gone, too.
That opens up three spots.
There are 13 scholarships. Right now, the scholarship players returning are Mason, Selden, White, Tharpe, Greene, Frankamp, Traylor, Lucas, Ellis and Mickelson. That’s 10. Add Oubre and Alexander and we have 12. There’s already enough scholarships to add Lyle.
So the question is does Self want another guard or a big guy.
Well, with Traylor, Lucas, Ellis, Mickelson and Alexander already in the fold, adding a sixth inside player would make it extremely difficult to find minutes for guys since you can really only play 2 of those guys at any one time.
I think that makes it more likely that Self signs another perimeter guy, especially since there are times where he has to play 4 perimeter guys at once. He has really only had two primary ball handlers on the roster this year, with Selden being an emergency ball handler. I bet he’d like to add a third so Frankamp can play off the ball more, where he has shown to be more comfortable, and able to look for his shot a bit more. Plus, having a big guard like Lyle means Frankamp won’t have to cover a bigger guy, which has been a struggle for him at times this year.
You also have to consider the 2015-2016 season in this equation. You figure Selden is probably only a two year player. Oubre probably is a OAD. If White transfers and we don’t have Lyle, the perimeter guys would be Greene, Mason and Frankamp, plus a top 25 recruit. We would still need one more perimeter guy at a minimum. For that reason, I think Lyle almost has to be the guy. I see him as a two year player, much like Selden.
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@drgnslayr “I don’t think most fans realize how hard it is to improve drastically while playing D1 ball. It is hard enough to just keep up with the game… let alone, make big leaps in improvement.”–slayr
Great, great take!! This is so crucial for fans to keep in mind when discussing players, even when the players are sucking. This is a level of intensity of athletic competition that is beyond most of our grasps. And until the players have already played a year in the rotation, it isn’t something they grasp EITHER. They are hanging on for dear life. Wiggins has said he didn’t realize how tough it was going to be. Wiggins is a once in a decade type. Selden comes off the floor and tells Self that that guy on OU was way faster than he realized. Selden is a draft choice. It is fierce out there on the sacred wood.
For much of the season, Naa has been like a jet trainer going up against latest generation fighters. He has had to learn a lot of throttle tricks just to stay alive, while he slowly gets his jet trainer refitted with all the right armament.
And to translate what you said into this metaphor, what Naa has been trying to do is a little like trying to hang new wing rockets on his jet trainer WHILE HE FLYING IN AERIAL COMBAT!!!
Frankly, if Naa survives this crucible in tact, he would be tougher to get out of the starting line up than getting crab grass out of a yard with a toenail clipper.
Naa has already had three XTRemely good performances at clutch time recently. These three performances are, quite frankly, are things that some other KU point guards never did (though they did other superb things in their defenses).
Next season, if the schedule lightens a little, and Naa’s wing man, Selden, comes back with a year’s experience, and some of the other guys get back with a year’s experience, whew! Mr. Short Legs could look REALLY good. Next year, some of the guys will actually know how to play help defense.
I often wonder what previous KU point guards would have looked like, if they too had had to play with a club that didn’t know help defense from tapioca pudding for most of a season?
Naa could come out this Saturday and suck as bad as he ever has, but no one can take those great performances of his away from him, nor that share of the league title that HE lead this team to.
Go, Naa, go!!!
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Speaking of Saturday, what will the defensive matchups be for this game? Who guards Smart? Will Wiggins be put on whoever Mr. Hot Hand happens to be? Do we remember what we did with Forte in the second half as opposed to what we didn’t do to stop him in the first half?
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@jaybate 1.0 T. S. Eliot said “April is the cruelest month,” only because he never played college basketball."
Now that’s funny right there.
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@jaybate 1.0 "Offense starts with defense.
A year without lock down defense is a like a year without sex.
Of course it can be endured, but who would want to, if they could avoid it?"
Well said sir!
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@wrwlumpy Brown, Smart & Forte are all matchups for the best defenders & don’t forget, Forte is not a starter. I think Wigs & Wayne get the first two & the smaller guards will end up with Forte. That is unless they go under screens, cause his release is so quick he’ll nail us. Then he gets a big boy. If I recall, Forte shoots almost a two-handed set shot from around the chest/shoulder area so is possible a short guy can disrupt him, but you have to stay in his shirt pocket & not allow him to back you down. He’s just too deadly a sniper. Tharpe just drives me nuts at times by not keeping his arms raised in his man’s line of vision. And Brown can also carry OSU on his back at times too, he ate us alive in AFH last year. This will be a good barometer of precisely where these young’uns are at defensively. We have experienced the road woes of a callously demanding schedule and it’s time for the whole package to gel. One more for the outright clincher & not a step backwards. Let there be no doubts-we are the champions!
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@globaljaybird think Forte is starting, thought he did last game.
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@justanotherfan I really like your take on Lyle. “You also have to consider the 2015-2016 season in this equation … the perimeter guys would be Greene, Mason and Frankamp, plus a top 25 recruit.”
Lyle comes understanding that his PT next season may not be much. If he can accept that, he could have a primary role for three seasons. In that scenario, I’d bet those three start with CF the first off the bench. That makes sense. I have just been dissuaded from that possibility because Lyle said adios to Louisville because of playing time concerns. Maybe the lure of his buddy Cliff trumps that.
I just don’t see how he gets PT next season. I would understand it if he were a top 10, presumed or near OAD guy – meaning how he could squeeze his way in. But he’s not. He’s ranked as low as the 40s by ESPN.
One other possibility. Self really likes Lyle. Is tired of little guards. With that, Lyle could … could … displace Mason. Mason then would get back into the rotation once Tharpe leaves. So, Tharpe/Lyle/Selden at the 1/2 spots, Oubre/Greene at the 3. CF maybe redshirts, or a crazy thought, Mason redshirts. Then @justanotherfan 's scenario plays out for the next season.
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@Crimsonorblue22-I forgot that with Clark suspended he does now start but didn’t at AFH though he played 30min.
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I think this is also reflective of Coach Self’s new recruiting approach that he’s been building for the last few seasons.
He knows that in order to compete for a title consistently, you have to have top shelf talent, and the only way to guarantee that you have top shelf talent is to recruit the best high school players.
As @drgnslayr said, it’s hard to improve drastically while playing D1 ball. There’s just not enough time to practice and work on your weaknesses, spend time in the weight room, film study, with coaches, etc. to make huge leaps either in season or during the off season.
For that reason, you can’t expect a guy that comes in ranked low to make “the leap” from his freshman to sophomore year. Perry Ellis has made significant strides this year, but you have to remember that he was a top 40 recruit.
Maybe Frankamp makes a similar move next year, although his situation is different because of his size and position. I think he could be a nice gunner off the bench like Forte at OSU, or like Heslip was at Baylor before this season. I don’t know that he will ever be a starter, but he doesn’t have to be a starter to be a very productive player. If Greene doesn’t develop into a starter level guy, you’re completely dependent on Mason and unknown top 25 recruit in the backcourt in 2015-16. I think Self has seen that he needs to surround his incoming freshmen with some experienced contributors.
Next year, those experienced contributors will likely be Selden, Ellis, Tharpe, Traylor and Mason. All five of those guys will have played significant minutes this year. Greene and Frankamp are a year further along at this point. Add in Oubre, Alexander and Lyle, and that’s a team that could play deep into March again.
Subtract Selden, Tharpe and Oubre from that mix the following year and add a couple of Top 25 recruits to the Ellis, Mason, Traylor, Lyle, Alexander, Greene, Frankamp group and you can play deep into March again.
And so on. If it lines up right, Self can literally just reload every year with one or two OADs, plus a couple of guys that are 2-3 year players and another 4 year guy (a Frankamp, or Greene, or Tharpe, or Traylor) to compliment the McLemore’s, Oubre’s, Wiggins’ and Embiid’s he also lands along the way.
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@ajvan Glad to hear it, AJ. I’m always glad when I can give someone a little humor here. And I’ve enjoyed reading your takes and hope you continue to contribute to the Jayhawk chorus. Rock Chalk!
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@HawkInMizery Thx, it feels like KUBuckets is ramping up for the stretch run!
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@jaybate 1.0
" @ajvan Glad to hear it, AJ. I’m always glad when I can give someone a little humor here. And I’ve enjoyed reading your takes and hope you continue to contribute to the Jayhawk chorus. Rock Chalk!"
I second that! and happy to see @HawkInMizery posting, too!
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Leaving aside whether we should, or shouldn’t, sign Lyle, your point is well taken that Lyle decommited to Slick D’Ville reputedly because of PT. And Lyle would be facing similar PT scarcity at KU, too.
I confess I am confused why Lyle would be willing to take the crimson and blue pill, but not the cardinal pill, given the comparable PT scarcity issues.
Do you have any ideas about what goes on here? Is Lyle driving this, or is Self? By Self, I mean is Lyle some higher ranked version of Mason that Self thinks is a lot better than his rank and so really wants him? Or is Self just kind of stringing Lyle along on the slim chance that Selden jumps?
Signed, Confused in the Recruiting Cloud
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@HighEliteMajor “With that, Lyle could … could … displace Mason. Mason then would get back into the rotation once Tharpe leaves. So, Tharpe/Lyle/Selden at the 1/2 spots.”
Never thought I’d hear you say that.
But this must be pretty close to what Self is thinking. At the very least, we know he’ll let the guards duke it out in practice for playing time, so the opportunity is there.
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@justanotherfan "Next year, those experienced contributors will likely be Selden, Ellis, Tharpe, Traylor and Mason. All five of those guys will have played significant minutes this year. Greene and Frankamp are a year further along at this point. Add in Oubre, Alexander and Lyle, and that’s a team that could play deep into March again.
Subtract Selden, Tharpe and Oubre from that mix the following year and add a couple of Top 25 recruits to the Ellis, Mason, Traylor, Lyle, Alexander, Greene, Frankamp group and you can play deep into March again. "
Good insight. I think that’s the most concise take on Self’s evolving recruiting strategy that I’ve read.
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@jaybate 1.0 I think this question is what makes the Lyle recruitment intriguing, at least for me. The answers are so much less than obvious that you almost can’t help taking guesses at what’s going on behind the scenes.
Thanks for the shout-out! You too, @drgnslayr. After reading along quietly for a couple months, it’s time to bring my limited hoops know-how to the boards.
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@jaybate 1.0 My speculation – I’ve always thought that it is Lyle driving it. Lyle had posted items on twitter with KU stuff, etc., within hours of his decommitment. Like this is where he was going. Kind of made me uneasy at the time, thinking we might have dipped our toe in the water with a guy who had committed. Seemed like an easy fish at the time, but we never pulled the trigger. I tend to the think Self has stated interest, but has hedged based on scholarship availability as you mention related to Selden.
@ajvan - Now, I’m not changing my opinion on Mason. But I bet Mason in 2017-18 would be better than Mason in 2014-15. We would have Tharpe next season, so redshirting Mason might make sense long-term if selling Lyle on immediate playing is what Self wants to do.
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I think you have it right on Lyle… I follow his tweets. He always seems to have nice things to say about Kansas.
Another thing us fans don’t always know… there is often a chain of recruits around another recruit. It wouldn’t surprise me if there is someone a couple years behind Lyle who may easily follow in his tracks. And then someone behind him…
I kind of think there is some collateral talent around Lyle.
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@HighEliteMajor I’ll ask you, HEM, as I really respect your opinions on recruiting–> Wouldnt we rather have AW3 stay-&-play, rather than getting another kid we have to teach from ground zero? I personally think AW3 is ready to explode. I am frustrated for him, and honestly, if he transfers, Self should try to get him to another royalty-level program…I believe he will be a stat-stuffer type of player for anybody, hopefully us.
If Wiggy leaves, why cant AW3 and Oubre split time 25mpg/15mpg at the 3wing?
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@drgnslayr Interesting statement about “Tharpe has the best attitude of any PG in the Self era”. What about Russell Robinson? Just curious about your thoughts on him. I agree about Tharpe’s great team attitude.
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@drgnslayr I actually think you might be on to something here!
The class of 2015 has both a PF and SF from Huntington Prep that are highly ranked. Montaque as the SF spot may be much needed addition if Oubre plays his way to a OAD status. I also think Thomas Bryant at the PF would be a great pick up since Big Cliff is gone. This gives Perry someone to mentor his senior year and he will have a lot to teach by then. There should be no rush for this kid to leave either because it looks like the PF spot for 2015 is deep.
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HEM had a good point about Mason improving…but with all the playing time and reps and upcoming summer work…wouldnt Mason probably be as good as Tharpe by this fall? Kid’s gotten a lot of playing time, and is about to get Tourney experience, bigtime. I say Mason keeps playing, as we need more than 2 good guards. 2012 only had TT and EJ, no depth. 2008 had RussRob, Chalmers, and some short guy named “Sherron”…
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Hard to tell if Self wants Lyle to come here no matter what or if it is in case Selden leaves…If so I’m sure that has been discussed with Lyle (ala Turner and Embiid). Self could also want him here if AW transfers. Even though that would create a problem with minutes at the 1 and 2 with someone(s) not getting adequate minutes (just like this year), I’m not sure Self worries about that. He once said he doesn’t worry about playing time for the guys…that always works itself out. He knows you needs the best players and I don’t think he believes you can have too many.
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@ralster I’d much rather have and experienced AW3 than Lyle. No doubt. But my guess is the ball handling thing is big. We can hope the best for AW3, but the dude is gone. He and Oubre could split time, but Self seems to have Greene ahead of him. Greene could start at the 2 assuming Selden is gone. But If I’m White, why would I stick around to play 15 mpg behind a freshman my junior season? With that scenario being perhaps remote? VCU, or the Richmond Spiders, or maybe a Maryland might have themselves a starting 3 come 2015-16. And yes, I do think Mason could surpass Tharpe by next season. Absolutely. Just tossing out a speculative scenario. My humble opinion on Mason is that he is way past Tharpe in a number of areas already – we’ve discussed a few of those. Total package, if I had to take one or the other for next season, I’d take Mason.
@drgnslayr … you’re right, of course. There’s a lot going on with the recruits that we don’t know. Heck, you never know. A kid may be negotiating to get the number he wants or he won’t come (maybe why Selden got the number 1?).
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My take is that Lyle’s interest in KU stems from the Alexander influence and connection. Seeing that Kansas is a current home to 2 of the probable top 3 lottery picks in the nation has got to enchant Lyle (or most any other top 20 recruit who has caught the eye of our coaching staff). IMHO, current and future recruiting will blossom for Bill Self, now that Wiggins, esp., has plugged in so effectively to Jayhawk Basketball. The grind to land top talent should be much easier for the Kansas staff. But, back to Lyle, I would imagine that his Jayhawk scholarship offer, if indeed that scenario transpires, would be with the understanding that he think of himself not as a OAD player, considering the limited minutes he might earn his freshman season. Of course, he would likely be assured that he COULD earn considerable playing time if his practice experiences stack up superbly vs. experienced returning talent; but not to expect the amount of playing time that Wiggins and Selden are currently accumulating. If he expects to spend only one year in the program, Sorry, but Sayonara.
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@HighEliteMajor I think you are on target re the Andrew White situation. Though he and family might dearly cherish the Jayhawk experience, and hold Bill Self and staff in high esteem, why return to such bleak opportunity for playing time…esp. when he could be starting for 2/3 of other Div. 1 programs? From what I have seen and read, my inclination is to like this player, and to respect his quiet acceptance of nonplaying minutes. I sense tremendous potential which has gotten snuffed by the numbers game. Popping off the bench cold has not worked well for Andrew. As a starter elsewhere he most probably will settle in to the opportunity to unleash his strengths. Sad situation currently for such a sincere talented player and person. If he stays, I really hope that things turn around for him. Just at the moment when he appeared ready to contribute this season, he gets the groin injury, then Kaboom! Greene rises to the opportunity for more minutes. Frankamp, too. And Mason springs forth to make major contributions which amount to less opportunity for White to get on the court. I think he is a goner.
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We also have to remember that one thing Lyle has working in his favor is that he can play either guard spot on both ends of the floor. He’s big enough to guard basically any college 2, but can also handle the quicker PGs. He can handle playing on or off the ball on offense. That’s a big deal because it means he can play with a very small lineup (Tharpe, Mason, Ellis, Alexander) or a big lineup (Selden, Oubre, Alexander, Mickelson). You could play him with Frankamp and Oubre on the wings and not worry about losing anything in either the ball handling or defense departments.
@HighEliteMajor it’s important to note that Self is much more inclined to go with talent and versatility than experience. White is a 2. He isn’t a very strong ball handler, so he can’t play without having another strong ball handler on the floor. You can’t play a lineup with him and Frankamp because you come up short in both ball handling and defense since White can’t handle quicker PGs.
I think White would fit great at a number of schools. The tough thing about coming to KU is that if you can’t crack the rotation as a freshman, there’s a good chance you will never crack the rotation simply because every year there will be a new influx of talent to overcome. White could probably start at 250 of the 350 D1 schools. He’d probably be a vital rotation player at 75-80 of the remaining 100. It just so happens he’s at one of the 20 or so schools where minutes are very hard to come by.
@REHawk I think we will see the friendship influence play into decisions much more in the future. Most of the top players understand that they will only be in college for a couple of years, so why not go somewhere that you like and can play with guys you enjoy playing ball with? I don’t think Lyle sees himself as a OAD. He’s ranked anywhere from the 20s to the 40s. Your typical OAD is ranked in the top 15, probably top 10. Not saying it can’t be done, but Lyle is likely a two year college player at a minimum. He seems to have quite a bit of room for growth skillwise, which could make him one of the top players in the country as a sophomore or junior.
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Didn’t Oubre choose KU because he felt like he wouldn’t be forced into being a OAD? He would be huge as a soph.
