Too many believe in Fools Gold
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Every team in the country I’d guess has a similar history in the same time Self has been at KU.
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@wissoxfan83 LOL! Funny that you mention that…
Oh, and just to save everyone the time of actually clicking the link and reading the article, basically, it shows that Self is unaware of pretty much any statistics related to our team. That is kind of alarming…
http://cjonline.com/sports/hawkzone/2015-12-11/ku-basketball-leading-nation-one-stat
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@ HEM “The total for Bill Self in 12 NCAA tournaments is a net (-10). That is reality. You can try to explain it away, give excuses, but that his what it is when simply looking at NCAA tournament success.”
So how does that compare to other top coaches/programs? Last you pulled this statistic out I showed the math on other top programs. It makes Bill look pretty good. It just goes to show that no program with high expectations year in and year out will meet them every year. It’s not an exposure of the team just the seating process.
I contend that the NCAA seeds most teams incorrectly based on media bias. That bias is positive for KU, which leaves our beloved Jayhawks over-seeded most seasons. (i.e. 9 loss Wiggins team was not deserving of 2 seed inspite of hardest schedule - didn’t win games)
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Are you going to advocate for Self to be asked to resign? I’m not trying to be snarky. I’m just seriously wondering if you would like someone else to coach KU? You don’t seem to trust his ability to coach this team.
As per the early exits, I think a factor to consider is to see who defeated them. And this actually goes back to the Roy days.
Since Self has been coaching KU, they’ve been eliminated by the National runner up 3 times, GTech, Michigan State, and Michigan. Of course once they’ve been eliminated by the national champion in the last game, no shame there. They’ve been eliminated by a final four team twice, VCU and UCLA.
Then there’s the other 'bad eliminations, the B’s, UNI, Stanford, and I guess put WSU in that list although that was a stout team that eliminated us last year.
So another way to look at our tournament history is we have been eliminated by 6 final four teams, and 5 ehhhh, not so great teams.
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True, it is common, but not at all atypical relative to the performance of other elite programs… If you measure since 2003 we are tied for first with the most championship appearances
@HighEliteMajor I am more than happy to keep and capable of keeping an open mind. In fact that is why I partake in this board…I enjoy hearing and considering the opinions of others. Sometimes my perspective changes, sometimes they don’t. And my profession requires it of me every day to boot.
But one could very easil ask you whether you are you capable of keeping an open mind when you encounter opinions that are contrarian to your own?
please know I intend no disrespect in that question. I offer it solely because you are widely known as one of the most rigidly opinionated posters on this site.
And your opinion rarely is swayed by the opinions or the data provided by others.
And BTW I LOL every time I read a post from you that calls Coach Self stubborn.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t respect your viewpoint and carefully consider your opinions.
.i am however saying that should you choose to point a finger just take notice that several of your own fingers are pointing right back at you everytime you do.
Just because it is your opinion and in your opinion is incapable of being refuted…doesn’t mean every one has to agree with you
So with that said, in my opinion, the fallacy with your point is that our seed is always high because of our consistently strong regular season performance. We are given a 3rd or higher seed almost automatically every year simply because we were the regular season champions of a power 5 conference. …and regardless of whether we are a team built for a tournament run or not.
Because of that, unless we are a final four or elite 8 team EVERY SINGLE YEAR (highly unrealistic)…we will under achieve in your metric more than we could ever hope to over achieve.
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@KUSTEVE said:
Dook ran the perimeter offense for 9 consecutive years w/o a Final Four, including two straight first round NCAA losses.
I think you have just nailed the reason Self has refused to walk down this path so far.
But man tried to fly for a long damned time, before he finally got it right. Now look at how many planes there are.
We don’t fly everywhere we go.
But we sure as hell do when there is a long trip to take.
If we’re not John Madden.
I don’t know where this is heading.
Golden State is proving something.
It remains to be seen exactly what Golden State is proving however.
Is it just about trey balling.
Or is it about some synergy between trey balling and having a player play the way Draymond Green plays?
But something is going on with trey balling.
Everyone that has ever studied statistics has said from the minute the three point line was added that sooner or later trey balling had to dominate the game. The problem was, like all weapons, it took many iterations of trying to learn to use it most effectively for it to become dominant.
There have been a lot of false starts with trey usage.
But we finally seem to be closing in on something.
I may not live to see the day when every first shot of every possession will be a trey, but I want you to know that we as a three point shooting people will get to the promised land.
All signs of logic and statistics point to the first shot of EVERY possession being a trey.
All signs of logic and statistics point to the second and third shots being treys, too, unless one is defending a lead with twos down the stretch of a game.
When it will come, I cannot say.
But unless war for control of the Eurasian Center Point and who builds and controls the trans Eurasian super corridor leads to global catastrophe ending basketball as we know it by weapons of mass destruction, or a designer virus gets loose we cannot adapt to, the day is coming when trey balling reigns.
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I like where you’re going. So far KU has been shooting the three in the flow of the game. What would happen if coach started X/Oing the three shot?
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The question asked by @dylans and @benshawks08 is a great furtherance of the discussion.
First, regarding Duke, @benshawks08 is right on. Duke is (-11). With that, the positive is an extra NC in that time period. Coach K is exactly with Self – 4 seasons of “+” or break even performances, and 8 are below “-” seeding line. I would be real interesting to see how teams that are elite or have won NCs in the last 12 seasons have done relatively speaking.
Second, @dylans’ point about the seeding process is probably a good one too. Kansas has maybe been over seeded a couple of times and I don’t think they have ever been under seeded. The Wiggins team probably should have been a #4 seed w/o Embiid. But no way we should have lost to Stanford. I can’t think of another time we’ve been over seeded though?
I also think that our conference has been overrated a bit, which could lead to minor over seeding. But hard to tell.
@SoftballDad2011 My comment leading into my post was more meant to ready one, with a little levity, for what they were about to read – thus the red pill reference. When you say “lol” that indicates to me that you don’t view the comment seriously. It makes you laugh. @doubleDD was correct. The “like usual” portion is correct for the last three seasons. And you missed Connecticut. They’ve been to the title game three times since '03, winning all three.
Regarding folks that disagree with me, I usually use statistics, citation to game performance, and relevant information. Rarely do I resort to personal stuff (though I have a few times – I think I said someone was acting like a teenage girl once at least). Heck, I went through 16 possessions to show why a player really didn’t play as good as the coach claims, and some folks will angrily respond as if I’m lying. And it builds up. The more I respond, the more they get riled up and defensive. That’s why I made my post this week after the Holy Cross game and avoided posting on my own thread. I do that sometimes to just read what folks say. It’s easier to digest opinions without thinking about responding. It’s truly how I open my mind.
What has ever given you the impression that I am not open minded and willing to change my opinion? Recently, I have made a complete 180 on Wayne Selden. I wanted him taken out of the starting lineup. After his WUG game performance, my mind changed. Why? The dude performed. On Mickelson, it has taken me a while to get on that bandwagon.
“No rank Frank” is my favorite player. Who would have thought that? I never thought Kevin Young would never be a viable starter. Wrong and wrong. Meaning I was wrong.
The problem for some is that my opinion has not changed on Traylor or Lucas. The reason why it has not changed is because I’m right – to this point. Lucas’ rebounding is making an impression. But my mind is open. When I’m convinced either player should be more than the 5th or 6th rotation big, I’ll be more than happy to voice that opinion.
Further, I would think that my comments on offense and the need to adapt to one’s talent would evidence the ultimate in flexibility. But I guess espousing the opinion of flexibility demonstrates rigidity. I don’t know.
Here’s the thing – I won’t back off when I think I’m right. That always offends people, on every topic. When someone shows me that I’m wrong, God bless them. I’ll be more than happy to concede.
And @wissoxfan83 goes where some regularly go. I’m a critic. I like to analyze the issues. If I go to the actual game video, look possession by possession, and show why Bill Self is full of hot air, that doesn’t mean I hate him or want him fired. That doesn’t mean I don’t like someone, or that I want them fired. In fact, I’ve posted the opposite many times. I responded pretty firmly recently when that topic came up.
One poster made a big point this week of claiming I “hate” in bold Bill Self and two players on this team. He suggested instead of posting, I should just post that I “hate” them and move on.
He doesn’t get it. That may be the way his mind works, but I can disagree, criticize, and analyze without hating someone, wanting them off the team, or wanting them fired. Again, this stuff always puzzles me. That poster lacks all objectivity because he does not feel like he has the knowledge to criticize or second guess Bill Self. Quite the opposite, I do feel that I have the knowledge to criticize Bill Self. That bothers him – and it bothers him that he can’t refute me with much more that “Bill Self says so.”
The fact is, if folks care to pay attention, I literally agree with Bill Self on most everything. 90% might be conservative.
I presented factual information above that cannot be refuted. The information, however, can be compared for context, as @benshawks08 and @dylans have suggested. That’s a “discussion” in my humble opinion.
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Coach really has underachieved
And it’s not just the losing but how they lose, that has a lot KU fans voicing there displeasure.
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@DoubleDD Uh oh. Those troublesome stats and numbers again …
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@DoubleDD :Yah, pretty stark article with stats to show that Coach Self needs to swing for the fences this season. I cannot help but notice the pattern forming though. 04, 08, 12 were all big years for him. It stands to reason that '16 could be just as good. I think the pattern above is no fluke. I think that Coach’s best teams are full of experienced upperclassmen with talent that know how to excel in his system. This year is no different and next season will be as well.
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@HighEliteMajor I know you get mentioned a lot so forgive me, but you never answered my specific question, do you want Bill Self to be replaced by someone else?
Also curious as to my comments on the strength of the teams that have eliminated KU. We’ve lost to some really good teams, which in my opinion, mitigates some of the bad losses that we’ve had.
A case in point, many look at 1997 as a bad loss, being the #1 seed, and if they’d ranked seeds then, we undoubtedly would have been the #1 overall. But the team that eliminated us went on to win the championship, turns out a very good team. Maybe they were underseeded, I don’t remember that regular season at all, but by your little scoring method, that season would be a failure.
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@wissoxfan83 To answer your specific question, no, I do not. And I have addressed this topic before from folks that assume because someone criticizes, that they want someone fired. I said the following after MSU game when there was suggestion that he be fired or resign: “Regarding coach Self, though, think of coach Self as your brother. He’s one of us. He’s ours. We’re his. We’re in this together. if you truly think he should be fired, that’s fine. But I’d ask that given everything that you know and what he’s done for this program, is that what you would do if you could make the choice? My personal view is that the discussion points are focused on “how can we improve.” “We” includes Self.”
My scoring system has nothing to do with the regular season. The information I provided, as stated in the post, is related solely to performance in the NCAA tournament. It made no comment on the regular season.
My personal view is that the 1997 regular season was amazing. But the massive failure by perhaps the best KU team cast an inescapable pall over the entire season. It was perhaps the most painful loss I can remember as a KU fan. The loss to Maryland in '02, loss to Syracuse in '03, and loss to VCU in '11 were in that ballpark for me. I do not look back fondly on the 1997 season because we didn’t achieve what that team appeared destined to achieve. It was, again, a massive failure in my book. That made the fall even harder. It’s also why 2012, 1991, and 1993 seasons might be less painful as far as FF losses. I look back very fondly on the 2012 season – incredible.
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@HighEliteMajor Every year you come up with new ways to blame Coach Self for old losses. It amazes me that you do this every single year my friend. It is not going to change anything. We lost those games, it’s over. With the exception of a few trolls, everyone on this board is just as upset about the losses as you are. None of us can be remotely as upset as Coach Bill Self. It is his job, and I am sure he is doing the best he can. I don’t always agree with everything he does and I am sure if he followed me around all day he would not agree with half the things I do in my day to day life. We are at a good place right now in Kansas Basketball and we have been for the past 30 years. My friendly advice is for you to try and enjoy KU Basketball and not obsess over it. Coach Self is getting paid handsomely to do his job and he has done it quite well. I know you believe in “National Championship or bust”, you have said it too many times before. We are not going to win every year and some of the losses are going to flat out suck. That’s part of competition, there’s a winner and loser. Think about how many times KU has won their regular season title during Self’s era. Don’t you think the other teams in the Big XII would love to experience some of that? We are Kansas. We can be ranked outside of the top 10 and still get the court stormed when we lose. That’s a pretty big deal. I know you have a right to post whatever you want, but it is time for me to get off the bus on this one.
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if you are going to “quote” me at least mention me personally.
Everybody that read my post got the jest of the “hate” comment, although after reading your comments it is hard to think you don’t really hate the individuals mentioned because your comments, as I mentioned before, seem to be more visceral and personal than objective and pragmatic.
The problem that I and many other posters have, if personal messages I receive and other posts are to be believed, is that your opinion is always stated as a proven fact and everybody else’s does not count,…or is uninformed… or just plain ignorant,. with gems like the one you just posted…
That poster lacks all objectivity because he does not feel like he has the knowledge to criticize or second guess Bill Self. Quite the opposite, I do feel that I have the knowledge to criticize Bill Self. That bothers him – and it bothers him that he can’t refute me with much more that “Bill Self says so.”
See what I mean?
It is not that I or other posters don’t have the knowledge, only that we accept that we have other careers and fields of expertise and Coach Self is the the top of his profession, we accept it and defer to him…obviously this does not apply to you because you know so much more than he does. It must really chap your hide that he gets the accolades and the big bucks while you toil in obscurity trying to show the world he is doing it all wrong…while he laughs all the way to the bank and the many awards he has collected and will continue to collect.
Often is not what you say but the way you say that turns people off and in the process your message gets lost.
You constantly harp on Coach Self, Anyone that reads your comments and is not familiar with his record would get the impression that Coach Self is an incompetent coach that can barely win and the program has been a complete failure under him. There is no question in my mind…and most other posters as well…that you honestly believe that you know more than Coach Self does and would be a much better coach at KU than he is; I have news for you…you are not… Even on the rare occasion when you have said something positive about him you comment was more along the lines of…he did OK for some one that is clueless…frankly, it gets old, boring and annoying…
You go to extremes to take portions of games to analyze in minute detail to try to prove your point that Lucas and Traylor should not be even part of the program. You have said in the past that Traylor has no business playing Division I basketball…and yet he starts for the #2 ranked program in the country while you stew in front of your computer trying to convince the world…or this forum …that he is not worthy. If you run the same analysis for any other player in the team or any other Division I team, you could come up with the same result…
For example, do you know who are the leading rebounder on the team?
Well… the leading rebounder is Lucas with 6.5 RPG in 15.2 mpg, Perry is second with 5.5 RPG in 25.5 mpg.
Now, do you know ho the third leading rebounder is? Would it surprise you to know that, Traylor, the player that you think should not be even playing division I basketball is the third leading rebounder on the team with 4.7 RPG in 17.7 mpg? Of course you would never mention this because it does not fit your narrative…and we all know that you are always right and the rest of us are always wrong…oh well.
Again, I could go on…but why? You just don’t get and likely never will which is really to bad, because outside basketball we seem to agree in a lot of other, much more important subjects…again…oh well.
Apologies in advance for wasting the member time and bandwidth on something that is unpleasant all around. Time to watch KU on the big screen since the game is not blacked out for a change.
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “For example, do you know who are the leading rebounder on the team? Well… the leading rebounder is Lucas with 6.5 RPG in 15.2 mpg, Perry is second with 5.5 RPG in 25.5 mpg. Now, do you know ho the third leading rebounder is? Would it surprise you to know that, Traylor, the player that you think should not be even playing division I basketball is the third leading rebounder on the team with 4.7 RPG in 17.7 mpg? Of course you would never mention this because it does not fit your narrative…and we all know that you are always right and the rest of us are always wrong…oh well.”
This is what we need as far as facts and stats. It’s discussion. It’s supporting your thoughts.
So you know, you are looking rebounds per game. Rebounds per minute, or per forty minutes, shows you the productivity. Prior to OSU, in order, it was Lucas, Diallo, Bragg, Traylor, Mickelson, Ellis, in that order, fyi.
Again, though, going to the stats as you have done can be used to prove my position wrong. I would very much encourage that.
I also hope you don’t think that because I disagree with you that I “hate” you. Have a good evening.
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Signed up solely to say that between Phog.net, this place, and the pre-exodus KUSports, HEM’s opinion is the one I seek out most of all after games. It’s all a question of opinion, of course, but for me, he walks the line between the camps of blindly following Self and blindly hating Self that seem to have swallowed a great deal of our online fanbase. If people put half of the effort that he does into factually backing up their posts, I might never get anything else done besides reading these forums. As it stands, 90% of the content of these boards is shooting from the hip, gut reactions. As I said, it’s all a question of opinion, but for me, if HEM took some people’s advice and put less effort into his posts, it would be a huge loss to our online haunts.
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@KansasComet I’m glad @HighEliteMajor obsesses over KU Basketball. His obsession is my education. I used to think he was a curmudgeon, but…ok, he is a curmudgeon, but that’s ok. He’s a true fan, and he cares. He thinks, and he analyzes, and I don’t always agree with him, but that’s good. That’s the way you learn, by considering alternative viewpoints and defending your own, and perhaps modifying yours in the process.
The most fun I have in the real world is talking to smart people who disagree with me. Unfortunately, in the real world there aren’t very many. Most smart people have already figured out that I’m right
If you don’t like what he has to say, don’t read it. That’s the beauty of the internet, you don’t have to read stuff if you don’t want to, and you don’t have to reply. It’s not productive to fight negativity with more negativity. Personally it bothers me when people bag on our players because as long as they are working hard and trying, their shortcomings aren’t their fault. But I’ve read enough of HEM to take what he says about individual players with a grain of salt. He is perfectly justified in questioning the coach, he just sometimes forgets (or doesn’t feel the need) to balance his criticism with approval. But he has snuck in enough praise of the couch that you know it underlies his analyses and evaluations.
HEM provides a perspective, and he cares, and I wouldn’t blast him for that. Just don’t read him. Sometimes I don’t, if I’m already in a foul mood. But after a win or a strong performance, he’s the first person whose perspective I look forward to reading, to see what critique he will come up with. It’s fun, and I almost always learn something.
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@tundrahok If you don’t like what he has to say, don’t read it. That’s the beauty of the internet, you don’t have to read stuff if you don’t want to, and you don’t have to reply. It’s not productive to fight negativity with more negativity. It appears you should take your own advice.
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@KansasComet KansasComet, There is nothing wrong in pointing the issues and flaws & having a discussion on Coach Self. Like you said he is being paid handsomely so there is nothing wrong in highlighting the bad with the good. I don’t think that HighEliteMajor hates Self. He has called him a brother, one of us. He is only pointing out the obvious points that had kept KU BB from reaching greatness and there is nothing wrong with it. It might upset some folks who believe that Self can not do anything wrong but its important to be realistic.
Like any other CEO who is responsible for an organization the buck stops with Self as far as KU BB is concerned and he needs to take responsibility and accountability on past failures and make every effort not to duplicate in the future. Has he been a great coach, Yes. Can he improve, Yes. And that’s what some fans are trying to do here.
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@IlBastardo said:
Signed up solely to say that between Phog.net, this place, and the pre-exodus KUSports, HEM’s opinion is the one I seek out most of all after games. It’s all a question of opinion, of course, but for me, he walks the line between the camps of blindly following Self and blindly hating Self that seem to have swallowed a great deal of our online fanbase. If people put half of the effort that he does into factually backing up their posts, I might never get anything else done besides reading these forums. As it stands, 90% of the content of these boards is shooting from the hip, gut reactions. As I said, it’s all a question of opinion, but for me, if HEM took some people’s advice and put less effort into his posts, it would be a huge loss to our online haunts.
Double Amen.
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@KansasComet in other words @HighEliteMajor is JUST like Coach Self.
Even in a win Coach Self finds areas for improvement. Shoot lights out from 3 and blow a team out by 20-30, “we let them score too much.”
It’s called striving for excellence. Yes it’s frustrating for people who do not care to put their shoulder to the plow themselves and those who think good enough is good enough. It’s not hate. It’s not “fire the coach”. It’s drive to excel to new heights. I believe HEM has even stated he’s a big supporter of Selfs High Low…there’s no reason for him to break that down, it’s the given. Focus on areas of adjustment and improvement. It’s called striving for excellence.
HEM is not like that. Coach Self is not like that. Like others, HEM’s breakdown, and those like his, are why I come to this site. He’s not calling for CS’s job like @AsadZ.
I find it great that the types of criticism that have arisen on this site broke out into the streets - “radio” Coach call-in show. Self addressed it with lineup change and the team hummed along. Last night had its ugly moments, but we played a way, and with personnel that have been called out here, and absolutely rocked the 2nd half.
If folks don’t like that type of analysis skip HEM’s posts. If you don’t like @jaybate-1.0’s style of posts, then skip those. I find that both bring something to the table that help me appreciate the game, the games within the game, and the general social sphere we call college men’s basketball.
Thanks to those who take the analysis to another level.
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@AsadZ Didn’t I say he has the right to post whatever he wants? I have that right to get off the bus on seasons past. I am enjoying this season. If our “brother” Bill Self does not win it all, it doesn’t matter to me. I will be one of the first to say, “That’s okay Coach Self, good luck next year”.
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Let’s all put @HighEliteMajor 's post(s) in perspective. I think all of us, each to our individual extents, “feels” that KU has underachieved in the big Dance, except for 2008 and 2012 (maybe over-achieved actually in '12). So therein begins the discussion with each of our various points-of-view.
I’d like to take HEM’s post & try to tell everyone what his “intent” is: It isn’t about pointing out past “fails” to gain notoriety or points, but instead to simply bring attention to the fact, and ask if there is a pattern or not. Which is supposed to beget discussion about what each of us thinks we/Self/KU/team should do about that problem…(the fact of the Tourney underachieving).
The truly “harsh” side of this discussion is if you go nationally, and see what fans of other programs summarize about our KU program: “…‘choke’ in the Tourney…”.
So, I’ll bring up Tom Izzo and MichSt, and their “tourney success”. They usually are a lower seed, and they usually overachieve. It seems their entire team of junkyard dogs (along with a couple of key crunchtime “gamers”) goes thru each season fighting, biting, dogfighting thru the Big10, and are battle-tested by March. I look to solutions for KU to come from examples like that (MichSt). I do not look to Roy’s UNC for such an example. I personally like the “toughness” angle, it resonates with me. TX beat UNC because of rebounding. That is a Self101 philosophy. KU beat OregSt because we left the non-rebounders, non-defenders (BG), non-bunny-finishers on the bench.
Look, as much as I love Traylor’s hustle, we saw coach pull him after that Lucas-like airballed bunny. Personally, I’ll say that was a bit uncharacteristic for Traylor…but the fact is Bragg brings more to the table than Lucas, Traylor…and even Diallo. Bragg was tough in the WUG. He’s only going to get better.
The only concept I will differ from @HighEliteMajor is that I was not surprised AT ALL that we lost to the-way-Stanford-played. Dismayed totally by the “early” exit, but not surprised from a basketball analytical standpoint. Stanford was tall. JamTray and Ellis suck vs length. We’ve seen Ellis get bested-by-length repeatedly even this season. Lucas and Jamari are no better this season than they were vs Stanford (as painful as that is to say). We were a horrible defensive team compared to past Self rosters, and not being able to stop Stanford was a sign of a critical flaw in that Jayhawk roster. Same problem vs WSU, same roster. And don’t forget, the Stanford coach masterfully gameplanned Wiggins out of the equation, as HEM had pointed out Wiggins own quote postgame. And its not that Wiggins didn’t try.
Notice that OregSt tried a packed in zone also, as did they try switching defenses. But we played with intensity and smarts the 2nd half, as well as wearing them down with pressure and fouls. They cracked, we didn’t. Tom Izzo would be proud of KU’s 2nd half, as was that other former Big10 coach, Bill Self…
You can bet your ass that future opponents will try everything possible to take away our legit 3gun…so it will come down to MichSt-type stuff: fight like dogs, rebounds, steals, defense, offensive putbacks.
So, thank god your KU coach is trying to build a competent roster once again that he hopes can see on its own that it needs to turn up intensity on whatever area is suffering in-game. That’s the type of team that will Survive-&-Advance in the Tourney. According to Selden postgame, Self didn’t say much Xs and Os at halftime, but more of ‘how’ do you want to play? And are you going to let a guy dunk on your head like that (GP2)? So the NewSelden and his junkyard buddies, Mason and Graham…and I may cautiously add Bragg now…fixed it.
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@IlBastardo @bwag @ralster @tundrahok @AsadZ Thanks for your posts … VERY much appreciated.
