How many?
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@JRyman Like always, I am looking forward to another great season of Kansas Jayhawks Basketball. Good post. I find it funny that some can criticize, but can’t handle criticism.
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@KansasComet bingo!
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Well… I for one can relate to this thread. I’m guessing a lot of people can relate to what jryman is saying. I do not go to other sports sites that fans post to, so i dont have anything to compare this to other that the old kusports site that many here got started on. There seems to be a definite hierarchy here of posters who come across very knowledgeable and informed, and those (like me) who are less so. As much as i learn from posters, here, i also feel that that my opinions are less valuable because I cant whip off a long post of stats and percentages to make an argument for or against someones else’s opinion. And yes, i have also often asked myself “has anybody played D1 ball or coached basketball at a high level here?” Maybe they have… This is defintely a quality site for sure, and funny, thought provoking, and entertaining to boot !
So i will continue to try and learn, try and not get too worked up over some posts that in my gut i disagree with, and continue to be a huge fan of our team (and yes my favotite current player is Jamari ) Because for me it is NOT all about winning and pecentages and how far we get in the ncaa tournament.
(What was is like for kentucky fans last year?? Their historic stack of oads and tads made anything less that winning it all a LETDOWN) Really is that what we want to aspire to?
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You’re wrong @JRyman
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I mean you’re right @JRyman
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Jamari Traylor is one of those players who like Escobar on the Royals, the numbers don’t necessarily paint the most accurate picture of. Escobar’s numbers don’t add up to someone who should be hitting lead off as the announcers have mentioned all throughout the playoffs, but the Royals for whatever reason have been a better team with him hitting lead off.
I think Jamari is a similar type player with a similar type impact on the team. His numbers don’t say he should get many minutes, yet those numbers don’t show his true value to the team because added value isn’t something that can quantified. @HighEliteMajor, I think area of your analysis I don’t always agree with is that you tend to depend too much on numbers as gospel which don’t always paint the whole picture. When Jamari plays with energy, I fully admit that isn’t always the case and when that happens he shouldn’t be anywhere near the floor, but when he does play with energy, KU is has always been a better team and he should be playing 15-20 minutes per game because it becomes diminishing returns after that point for players of his type, but occasionally he should play more when his actual production is there.
He’s a guy that analytics guys like you who swear by advanced metrics hate (as a player, not a person) because his production says he shouldn’t play much, and eye test people love him because he’s an active player who impacts the game in ways that don’t show up on any stat sheets. I’ve always been more in the middle on this issue as there is absolutely a place for advanced stats in basketball and I use them on a regular basis, but there’s also still a lot of value in the eye test as well and the eye test on Traylor says he impacts the game more than the stats say.
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I can’t speak for the players or coaches… but I would think they know being in the public spotlight is always going to bring positive and negative responses/reactions. It’s simple… you go public you have to accept that everything is coming your way. I think they all accept KUBuckets as a real positive because we give attention to them and what they are doing. The worst thing is a team and coach not receiving any attention at all.
I definitely don’t mind the criticisms leveled in here on players and coaches. Chances are, they need to hear critical opinions from people who have no inside bias. We aren’t their personal friends or family or coaches. We form opinions strictly from the outside, and that does have merit. They need to know what the outside crowd thinks and feels, even if it is uber critical.
What I don’t like is for people in here to turn on each other. A big part of why I contribute to this site is the respectful connection I have with others and others to me. This place is like an oasis for me. We should all be able to exist together in here without ripping each others’ heads off. I believe this is the biggest difference we have in here versus other website blogs and forums. In most places on the internet there is no civil decorum. Posters get downright crude with their personal attacks of other posters.
JamTray… I hope he has his best year. He needs to. He has been a personal project for Self since Day #1. Self mentioned how he wants to mold him into a player who can leave Kansas and make a living in basketball. No more necessity to live in a car. That is admirable. But JamTray has to lift himself. He is marginally a player who can make a living playing basketball somewhere on this planet. He needs to be shown his mistakes. That is the first step into improving. Fix what is broken. He should be able to improve his biggest broken piece (low basketball IQ) strictly by following rules that protect players from making bad mistakes. Think of him as a pedestrian walking along side a busy road. Good general IQ would tell him to not walk in the street and use the crosswalk to safely cross the street. But if he doesn’t have good general IQ he can still be safe just by learning to use crosswalks as a general rule for crossing the street safely. He doesn’t have to know WHY he needs to use it, just that he should. I think having a low basketball IQ can definitely be compensated for by restricting players with low basketball IQ with additional rules. JamTray needs additional rules. Other players, like Devonte, don’t need those extra rules because he knows what to look for on the court in real time.
We need to stay on players like JamTray’s butt. Not only for the good of Kansas basketball, but for the good of Jamari. If he never hears criticism while at Kansas, he will be in for a tragic shock when he leaves Kansas and has to make it on his own, especially if he attempts to make basketball his livelihood.
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@drgnslayr I’m all good with constructive criticism. It has its place. What I’m against is the personal opinions pushed off as facts or higher knowledge to take a player down.
Maybe I was brought up wrong but never kick a man when he’s down. Maybe Jamari isn’t the best option? But to unload a wagon about his game everyone players are listed is over the top and well it’s been exhausted to the point of nausea. As well as the point that you can’t disagree with that opinion if you do you are a blind fool or a worshiper of Bill Self.
That doesn’t make much sense to me. I can have my opinions as I do not live in North Korea, and I can express it. I don’t need to throw numbers or dialogue out to prove it, because there is nothing to prove. It’s an opinion.
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@drgnslayr low bb IQ Jamari is teaching Bragg KU bb skills. That ought to scare the sh1t out of you!
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@JRyman Please keep in mind, these buckets postings are something in the way of a competitive game among posters…quite different, altho tangential to KU Basketball under the realm of Bill Self. Yeah, we sometimes type opinions which are a bit cheeky or downright overly critical. IMO, just human nature. Sometimes the most critical and dominantly opinionated of contributors also offer the most rational facts and food for thought. I enjoy the push and shove on this site. Would not want my son to read buckets commentary if he were playing for Bill Self. I feel that the site was designed for, and is supported by, an array of fans, some of whom are casual contributors, others who know a great deal about the collegiate game. I am well aware that I occasionally ruffle feathers on this site, often with intense but sometimes mirthful intention. Actually, this response to your posting here is designed just to present a serious and perhaps unique point of view. I do admire your grit and do concur with the spirit of your criticisms…at least, partially. The most critical of us probably needs an occasional kick in the groin to keep our commentary under control. Oops! Sorry, ladies. A kick in the fanny?
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@REHawk but you do not call out posters for not thinking the same as you, for example mindless, or you probably don’t even read books… Could name a bunch. If you can dish it you must take it too. Because someone doesn’t agree w/you doesn’t mean you can call them names.
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SEE ANSWERS IN CAPS
@JRyman said:
How many practices has anyone from this site been too? I OR SPECIAL AGENTS OF THE BIA HAVE BEEN TO EVERY SINGLE PRACTICE.
How many team meetings has anyone been too? I OR BIA CASE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN TO EVERY SINGLE TEAM MEETING.
How many coaches only meetings? THE BIA HAS BEEN TO ALL BUT ONE.
How many team workouts? THE BIA HAS MONITORED TEAM WORKOUTS FROM EVERY CONCEIVABLE ANGLE. WE HAVE HACKED INTO HUDY’S REAL TIME BIOMETRIC SOFTWARE OUTPUT. WE HAVE WATCHED THE PLAYER’S HEAT SIGNATURES FROM SATELLITES FROM SPACE. WE HAVE ACTUALLY CLONED CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THE TEAM AND HAVE ABDUCTED THEM WITH TRACTOR BEAMS AND REPLACED OUR CLONES SO THAT THEY COULD REPORT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE TO US.
How many dr appointments or rehab assignments? THE BIA HAS COMPLETELY INFILTRATED THE KU BASKETBALL MEDICAL SUPPORT TEAM.
How many film sessions? ALL BUT ONE AND THE CURRENT VERNACULAR IS VIDEO, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE TECHNICALLY DIGITAL FEEDS.
How many people have talked to coach Self about the type of players he likes and what he is looking for? EVERY SPECIAL AGENT AND EVERY CASE OFFICER IS REQUIRED TO MONITOR COACH SELF’S BRAINS AND INFLUENCE HIS THINKING WITH SPECIALLY ADAPTED MICROWAVE CROWD CONTROL TRANSMISSIONS.
How many? EVERYONE AT BIA THAT IS NOT BEING PAID MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE WILL NOT PAY THEM FOR SPYING 24/7 ON THE KU BASKETBALL PROGRAM; THAT’S HOW MANY.
THE BIA NEVER SLEEPS.
AND WE WHISTLE WHILE WE WORK.
ROCK CHALK!
ALL FICTION, OF COURSE, AND SANS MALICE AS USUAL.
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I’m sure many of us could better frame our opinions. No doubt about it. And like I said, your timing is good for a correction in here. You just provided us with that balance we need. I know I’ve been trying to frame my posts better. There was a period when I think I was sounding like I was factual and with some kind of complete knowledge. Or that my experiences somehow trump other posts or posters. Hogwash! I’ve picked up so much info from great posts in here… a lot more than I bring to this forum!
We have a solid “meeting of the minds” here!
I know I pay close attention when someone posts… “I know I don’t have the knowledge many of you have, but my thoughts are…” I enjoy these posts because often these posters bring something new to us.
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@drgnslayr AND @JRyman
AMEN!!! And I read EVERYONE of them too! I feel I am richly blessed from reading, learning, absorbing ALOT of information about College Basketball in general, and in particular … the KU Jayhawks !! THANKS TO ALL who contribute and THANK YOU “approxinfinity” OUR Founding “Father” of this Site !
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Right on! We can’t thank @approxinfinity enough for giving us this opportunity!
And thanks @Red.Rooster for supporting so many of us in here!
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JR. You make some valid points. But people want to express their opinions…it is part of being a fan. While sometimes people may take their statements a little too far…I don t think I’ve seen anything that resembles cyber bullying.
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@Hawk8086 ok perhaps I overstated by saying cyber bullying but like others who get their point across their way I used what I wanted to get mine across.
Am I right in doing so? Probably not. But I’ll also be the first inline to call myself out when I make a mistake.
Look I get it we as fans and common folk use this to cheer, jeer and voice our opinions. But that’s all they are, opinions. No one that is posting on here knows this team this coaching staff what they work on and practice want s player to do why they recruit this kid and not that one.
We can all speculate on it. We can guess and throw our two cents in. But to clobber other posters for disagreeing with an opinion acting like its s fact is annoying and bullish. Going after a player or players who don’t read nor respond to these post time and time again is boring and overdone.
Yes I question coaching and players. But I don’t need to beat a dead horse. After awhile it just becomes bloated and smells bad. No reason for that. Kick to hard and it’s sure to explode you you like ectoplasm.
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@drgnslayr @Red.Rooster Thanks for the kind words. Can’t wait for the season!
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@approxinfinity ditto for me
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@JRyman My hat’s off to you for making us all take a moment to think about what we post and how we post it, and even how it may come across.
Speaking for myself, Ive been watching KU bball ever since Roy Williams first arrived, and I’ve really enjoyed contrasting the playstyles of Roy vs those of Self. Its a perfect example of 2 different coaches winning at an amazing clip, but by different methods. So I might think I have thought about it a LOT over the years, so most of my posts are to see if others agree with my idea (or not). You see, the other posters here (anyone) ARE my own reality test or sounding-board…
I’ll be very honest that I prefer Self’s emphasis on performing on BOTH ends of the court, offensively and defensively, and regarding half-court “set” offense, I think his system is more complete than Roy’s. But see, that’s just my opinion. Roy never won a NC at KU, but has won 2 at UNC. Self has won only 1 NC.
Regarding Self’s playstyle philosophies, I’ll say that while I was never a D1 player, I played a bit at my small college (pre-KU grad school), after I grew 3in from high school…and still play couple times/week. I do try to practice Self-philosophy on the court, and it is unbelievably hard to maintain that type of intensity. It just so happens that I personally “got” playing D from a young age (watched Randy Smithson, PG of WSU, absolutely harass opposing guards with his perfect footwork). So watching Russell Robinson + Chalmers play D was just “joy” personified, and I still think 2008 was Self’s best overall “team”.
So my point is, it would be incredibly rare for me to bash a KU player, simply because I haven’t walked in their shoes directly, and I also know what is being asked of them requires the utmost focus and dedication. I have too much respect for the players wearing our uniform to publicly bash them. I really just wish they would assimilate Self’s system to the point that our team looks efficient and like they are having fun.
Regarding Jamari Traylor, put me in the eye-test category, who only hopes Jamari can contribute steadily to the point he could earn a shot at playing at some pro level, if that is his dream. Part of me really enjoys the success stories.
There is a part of my “KU inner core” that will forever be attached to our KU former players because we know of their toil and sweat. Knowing Self’s demands, our players chose to come and grind in Self’s system. It isn’t for every kid. So I automatically respect the ones brave enough and man enough to accept Self’s program. For example, regardless of their ups/downs in the stat columns, I have great respect for Perry Ellis and Wayne Selden. They didn’t have to come here, but they did. I hope they have the big year most of us expect/want them to!
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@JRyman Regarding the “angst” filled posts by some KU fans…I’d just say this: go check out some NFL fan sites and read comments from fans about their own team’s ups/downs. It can drive one crazy. There’s actually a contingent of KC Chiefs fans the think Alex Smith is part of KC’s problem (wrong, its the O-line…).
No different than a turnover by a KU basketball player would cause my KU alum bro-in-law to cuss and swear at the TV (especiall at Tyshawn…).
Its human nature (for some) to get critical about something you care a lot about. Throw in the personality traits of positive people vs negative “nancies”, and you can have 2 different fans see a KU game from very different perspectives. So when they post, their “slant” colors their post. I see it all the time.
Also cannot escape the fact that “armchair QB” or “Monday-morning QB” is a big pastime for many fans of whatever teams. Its what fans do.
My final thought, though, one that I have posted many times over the years (since its a guarantee that NO college team will make the Final 4 every single year), is that whatever in-game gaffe or errors caused KU to lose the game and get bounced out of the Tourney…as down and sad of a climax that is… I always feel worse for the KU players, as it literally was in their hands, and now they will carry that with them forever. (Think Collison, Sherron, Reed, Markieff, EJ, etc…)
As my favorite basketball player (MJ) once said: *“I’ve missed 37 game-winning shots…”. We live and die by our guys efforts. Our “horses”. So we lose a big game. I’m just not going to kick our own guys when they are down. As fans, we always get the ‘next’ season. For many of our players each year–it’s the end of their KU road.
RCJH
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One of the best comments I read from another KU fan was last week on the old site talking about recruiting ranking: "the recruiting rankings are descriptive, not determinative…"
Perfect example of that is Devonte Graham (even with injury) having a much better season than #1-ranked PG Josh Selby’s frosh season (with his own injury). Or Mason as a frosh vs. 5star EJ as a frosh. Notice I’m not bashing any player, just comparing and contrasting their results, only to prove ya just never know how a kid’s season will go. I loved every one of those kids, and wished for each of them that they go out and prove the ‘naysayers’ wrong.
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I know others may not agree, but I most of the time DO defer to Self’s judgement, as I do feel there is no way we can judge his players running his plays the way his eye can. No way I could compete with that. So, while we all can (& should) realize Self isn’t perfect, nor is any other coach.
Suffice it to say, that Bill Self is a tremendous “net positive” for KU. That’s the overwhelmingly prevailing opinion in KUAD offc, on campus, in Lawrence, and in general around the entire nation. It is a consensus. Which is not saying he’s perfect or correct all the time. As humble as he tries to be, I bet he is keenly aware of his own mistakes. Most people who are highly competetive can also be very hard on themselves when they make mistakes–they hate losing.
If, for example, the supposition is about Bill Self getting “better” or “improving”…then that is mostly on him, isn’t it? (like it is for everybody else). I’m not going to spend a lot of mental angst about what he coulda/shoulda/woulda done, although that is very, VERY easy & natural to do after some KU game loss. He is, after all, just another “horse” we are riding, for all he’s worth. Let’s see how far he can take us?
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@ralster “Suffice it to say, that Bill Self is a tremendous ‘net positive’ for KU.” Man, no truer words could be spoken about the current state of KU Hoops. Very well written!
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@ralster Exactly. I tend to agree with Self on at least 90% of what he does and his decisions, it’s the other 10% that are the discussion points.
I always wonder why some folks, though, think Self’s way is the only way – as if there is not a big basketball world out where conference titles and national titles have been won doing things differently.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I always wonder why some folks, though, think Self’s way is the only way – as if there is not a big basketball world out where conference titles and national titles have been won doing things differently.
But that’s usually not your point, right? If I read your 2015 posts correctly, you don’t want to “do things differently”, you just want Self’s 90%, plus some tweaks and flexibility to get even more than 90%.
I guess the question is, can Self tweak and flex to reduce the 10% without endangering the 90%? In my work (nothing to do with sports), fixing the 10% does sometimes endanger the 90%.
Maybe that’s what sets Coach K apart, being able to conjugate system and flexibility - or else it’s Nike.
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@ParisHawk One of the things Coach K finally demonstrated in recent years is that he’s becoming more adaptable in his system to play to his personnel’s strengths. This is an area where Self hasn’t really demonstrated much adaptability yet. The WUG provided hope that Self is starting to realize that adapting his system to his personnel is an option and one that also leads to a lot of success as well. We also saw Self revert back to his typical tendencies in the Germany game though so he may not fully be ready to do this yet.
Self has also admitted in the past to not watching the final game of the season which is something that’s always bothered me because there’s a lot he can learn from those games to apply for the future. He hasn’t talked about that in the past couple of years that I’m aware of so he may have changed, but if not, that’s an obvious example of something Self could do to improve his coaching.
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“I guess the question is, can Self tweak and flex to reduce the 10% without endangering the 90%? In my work (nothing to do with sports), fixing the 10% does sometimes endanger the 90%.”
When I think of what makes Self, Self… what is his unique identity as a coach… I think of 3 things:
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Hi/Lo offense
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Man-to-man defense (almost exclusively)
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Strict discipline on young players (quick hook), soft discipline on veteran players (no hook)
Those are the 3 areas of his coaching that pop out and make him distinct. As @ralster mentioned… Self is a tremendous “net positive” for us.
Can Self keep his ways and just tweak it 10% to make it better?
Perhaps, perhaps not. This year will be a real test for that. And if he can adapt his ways to the strengths of his current roster? That… I’m not certain about. This gets into my sermon about the differences between D1 coaches and NBA coaches.
I think he will still want to micromanage and stiffen up the game by making his players play within a very tight structure. I’m not expecting him to have a “Royal moment” and let the guys play more on their own instincts. But these guys aren’t the same personnel the Royals have. They are young kids put under a bright spotlight.
That final step in success usually requires teams to show something new at the end. This is something we don’t even consider. Look at how much harder it is to do in pro baseball. They play a zillion games. They hardly have time to do develop because they are busy preparing for a game. But Yost was a master at keeping the Mets off-guard… especially with his pitching strategy. Meanwhile… guys like Herrera were adding a pitch to his arsenal just in time for the playoffs…
We need to offer up something unique at the end. A few new inbounds plays. A few extra wrinkles in the offense. A few ways to adjust defense to get hot teams out of their offensive rhythm… This is where we typically fail big time. This is where we play in March and are losing a game and it just plays out the same to the very end, where we end up going home.
Duke won last year, partially because K verbally abused the refs at halftime to get his calls later. But he also tried unique things the second half and made the Badgers adjust.
In '08… Self put Rush out top on a defensive zone. It created serious problems for Memphis.
In '15… What did we change up on the Shockers? I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 … Self has to study the Shocker game. What went wrong? What could he have done differently? Is total blame on our players? Is total reason we lost because the Shocker players played better? We were spanked. My guess is Self is the Riverboat Gambler and actually has studied that game but doesn’t want to share that with anyone. If he says he did study it, then he made a political mistake because much of the Jayhawk base still lives in lala land and doesn’t give the Shockers their due.
There is plenty to take away from the Shocker game to make us a better team… especially on the strategy side. I’m not against us playing M2M defense… but we need to have plenty of twists in our defense to keep opposing offenses from settling into a rhythm. Especially with the coming year and 5 seconds off the shot clock.
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As I have mentioned before, I really enjoy your posts and you show more unbiased insight than most of us do.
I always say that sometimes is not what you do but how you do it and by extension, it is not what you say (or post) but how you say it (or post it). As @JRyman mentioned, it is not that some posters criticize Coach Self and/or players but how they go about that turns a lot of people , including me, off. When I disagree with posters or a coach and/or players, I do criticize but I try to do it politely and I always qualify it as my opinion, since I do not have any factual inside information and like everybody else…I am just guessing, and I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to Coach Self since he has the actual facts.
I understand what @JRyman was pointing out is that some posters present their “opinion” as “fact” and everybody else’s “opinions” are dismissed, sometimes in a rude, offensive, condescending and patronizing manner; I should know, as I have been at the receiving end of that criticism often enough. I have posted on this subject before but some posters will never change…so we move on.
You have likely spent more time with Coach Self than the rest of us posters combined and you have sat down with the man and listen to his personal philosophy and you are the closest thing we have to an inside source…and yet you manage to comment in a polite and rational manner. I hope you know that most of us here really appreciate your opinion and the way you present it. Please keep posting.
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@drgnslayr la la la
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I would like to post something that although not directly related to sports, it does address the issue of being offended by the comments made by others. I thought it was very interesting…
As published;
Professor Mike Adams in North Carolina is not your typical college professor. He made it clear the first day of class that hyper-sensitive liberals and Obama voters who can’t stand politically incorrect topics have no place in the classroom.
While most students are busy taking selfies and reading about celebrity gossip, Professor Adams is interested in real education. Here us his brutal message to his students at University of North Carolina at Wilmington. Awesome!
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I am so sick of the “politically correct” crowd. Don’t they realize how they insult me with their correctness? What about me?
You remember this one:
“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”
My personal attorney recently told me this:
“If you get upset with someone, it is best to not react in front of them. But if you do, go ahead and slug them versus saying abusive comments. It will be a cheaper lawsuit settlement.”
Turns out… to some people words hurt more than stones. Personally, I could care less what someone calls me (as long as it isn’t late to dinner). But if they reach for a stone, I’m in total defense mode!
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When I walked away from the game I needed a way to pay for school so I started bartending in a little dive bar with lots of regulars and just the random crowd.
I was fresh faced looked young and innocent. So every time one of the regulars would swear they’d all look at me to see if I was offended. I look at them and say “don’t worry my mom said worse”. That usually broke the ice.
I saw friends argue in a bar over stupid things and strangers get bent out of shape because they overheard something that didn’t concern them. I broke up a few here and there, but I never let a guy get kicked why he was down. Everyone needs someone to back them in certain situations.
Maybe it’s why I don’t like on and I speak my mind when I see it.
But as for me, if you can offend me you’d be the first since I was in JR High.
