KEEGAN'S ARTICLE ON TRAYLOR'S NEW MATURITY...
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@globaljaybird What’s a DD? I keep picturing him with a top heavy gal… Good reward, but I doubt it’s what you meant.
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@dylans One preferred application of your exemplary explanation of a DD would be a very wonderful floatation device or as we said when younger a “motorboat”. However in this particular instance the reference was to a mere double double. For some reason I happen to like your definition much better.
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The Jam Tray HAS all the physical tools to become an exceptional D1 basketball player.
The questions around him revolve entirely around skills and anticipation.
Can he learn a money shot?
Can he learn to anticipate a rebound?
Half way through the season, before he joined the walking wounded of Merrill’s Marauders, he played exceptionally well for about four games.
All we had to find out for this coming season is could he get his pop back from whatever injuries befell him last season.
The guy long ago proved he can explode out of position on defense and make big plays. He also showed he could guard the post without fouling,when healthy last season.
During that brief stretch of good play, the JamTray also proved he could put it on the deck and he showed a hint of a jump shot. Alas all that progress disappeared as he learned to play the walking wounded game of one leg, no jumping, and no exploding out of position. It was pitiful to watch, but he did keep contributing in small ways even with one dead leg.
If the Jam Tray were to become accomplished at the drive down the lane, and master a jumper from 17, and even a trey from outside, then he could pretty much do what Marcus Morris and Thomas Robinson did from the 4. Neither Marcus, nor TRob could do all those things from the beginning either.
But the thing that has really held Jam Tray back from emulating their success, aside from being shorter, is that he has just never evidenced any sixth sense for rebounding; that knack of anticipating where the ball will come off, so that he can get to it first.
My pessimism about Traylor as a project has always centered on this shortcoming. I have never seen anyone develop that knack in five full decades of watching the game EVER. You are either born with it, or not, has been my experience.
But there is always a first time.
Nothing is written.
Ralph Miller swore that he could take anyone 6-8 out on the street that had never played ball before and in 4 years teach him enough fundamentals for him to be a useful back up big man.
The Jam Tray is only 6-6, or 6-7, so he might be a hair short for Miller’s heuristic.
But if the Jam Tray can stay healthy, and if no young co-ed breaks his heart this season, and if he were a driven human being, well, he lives in an age of phenomenally increased cognitive knowledge and capacity for teaching than what existed most of the decades I have watched basketball and so he might be able now to be taught the knack of rebounding, too!
We can hope.
For if he learns the rebounding thing, the lane drive and the 17 jumper is within his grasp…
And that makes him a viable stretch 4, or stretch 5, even if a very short one of either.
And that means this team could field with Ellis and Traylor a pair o stretch bigs; that would be most unusual and hard to guard.
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@jaybate-1.0 I hope!
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@jaybate-1.0" And that means this team could field with Ellis and Traylor a pair o stretch bigs; that would be most unusual and hard to guard"
Yes we can hope…But if I didn’t see bear scat in the woods either, I wouldn’t have to carry that Model 94 - .467 Winchester. Let’s just say I’m always packin’ when I’m trudging through the forest in the fall.
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@globaljaybird
HOWLING!
Yes, when you introduce probabilities into the discussion, well, I think Jam Tray becoming a stretch 4 is not something I would bet on either.
Don’t let go of your 94. In fact, grab your Model 50 and put some deer slugs in it.
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@wrwlumpy Great post, solid post. Well written. I fully agree. RCJH!
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My inclination is to be impressed with and supportive of the Kansas 5-year players. Teahan, Releford, now Traylor; these are the real jewels of the program. I enjoyed watching the athleticism and occasional splendid performances of Xavier, Andrew and Kelly. But in my mind those three are merely asterisks in the bigger and more enduring scheme of Kansas Basketball. In 7 or 8 years, it will be Kelly WHO? While Conner T., Travis and Jamari will still reside in my fonder fan memory and appreciation. Ben Mc is a figure who represents a touch different situation for me. His freshman year ruling of ineligibility led to his staying in Lawrence 2 seasons. He seems a more integral ingredient of KU Hoops than did our other OADers. Perhaps it was the family poverty issue…or the fact that he jumped across the barrier of the bloody border.
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Spot on. That is the curse of the OAD. UK fans now complain that it is hard to cheer for a team they barely know; by the time they get to know a player…he is gone.
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@REHawk I cannot agree with you more… For the first time in 20 years i am beginning to lose my passion for ku basketball because of the oad carousel that teams at the level of ku have to apparently jump on in order to stay competive. Cliff Alexander who? Etc.
On a bigger note, as for this site… When we get posters who argue with albeit good logic (the essential end logic of its all really about winning ) that 18 to 22 yr old kids getting a chance to leave the US and travel to Korea to play in the WUG Is a bad idea, or other posters who argue with equal logic that guys like JamTray should be benched to essentially forced out to make room for statistically better rebounders despite the fact that he is in essence exactly what college basketball should be about for any kid who wants to better himself, or that we will Always be hampered because of ku’s association with adidas, true or not, or how getting oad players who will pretty much “save their effort” for when they get paid can somehow be a good thing in any way shape or form, and so many negative subjects on and on, i feel less and less connected to this community, and really wonder why where our reasons for wanting to love Ku basketball have taken us…
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@Bosthawk I sympathize with your post, but let me try to “walk you back from the ledge”, so to speak.
I suggest most posters were favorable to the WUG and thought that it would have positive effects on recruiting and preparing for the season. Those extra benefits are not as great as many hoped: we recruited a large portion of foreign players and two Americans got hurt, so the WUG team will not be exactly the same as the regular season team.
All that being said, I don’t remember anyone saying without those extra benefits why go? At most very few. If they did, I agree with you the WUG is a good thing whether it helps us selfishly or not.
As far as Jamari, yes there is criticism of his contribution and some people want him to see the floor less. Those same people love a 5-year player like Releford. There was talk about forcing someone out to make room for Paschal Chukwu (which I didn’t like either) but that’s a rare exception on this site.
The Adidas thing is one more example of the theme “we’re the good guys so we should win more championships”. Behind the negative (implicit complaining) lies a positive that those posters cherish college ball and want “the right way” (and KU) to prevail.
OADs “protecting the merchandise”: I can see you don’t like to read that. I think there was a generalisation from Wiggins. Maybe that will die down when Diallo struts his stuff.
Bottom line, there has been some cynicism expressed but really concentrated on a few subjects and due to a small number of influential posters - who also bring great positives to the site!
You did well to express your reaction. I hope you continue to read and react.
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@Bosthawk Sounds like a cold drink & a real good session of bedroom Olympics might help get that fire back for KUBB…RCJH &keep the faith…
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Sorry… I’ve shown some recent apprehension about WUG. After I didn’t see us gain an advantage in recruiting from it and after Devonte whacked his knee, I started considering the worst possible scenarios.
My bad. So I’m trying to focus on the positive, and the positive is that we will gain lots of great experience on this trip and our guys will bond even tighter, though they seem very well bonded already!
Many of us “live” in here… so that means the readers must endure all our mood swings! Fancy that?! I think all of us have gone through periods of Negative Ned/Nancy and Positive Paul/Paula. All of our “flipping emotions” actually help give this site it’s edge. I know I try to give our posters plenty of leg room because many have done the say for me and I empathize with posters possibly having a bad day. The only thing that bothers me is when I see two posters go at each other and make it personal. That creates the chance we might lose some readers and perhaps the posters in the disagreement. I hate to lose anyone from this bunch because I can’t think of one poster that has NOT contributed to the conversation!
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@Bosthawk For me personally, what keeps me connected to KU hoops is quite simple. KU is and always will be one of the best programs out there. Bluest of blue bloods, the best tradition, the best home court advantage, the inventor of the game coached here. Passion for the sport itself. I love college ball and I want to learn more about how the game is played every time i watch a game.
Yes, as the playing field changes with OAD/TAD era, it does take away from the pureness of the sport. Corruption within the shoe companies, the AAU circuit and freshmen wanting to bail for the league early so they dont play hard.
Those things are real but they wont keep me from watching our beloved Jayhawks year in year out.RCJH!
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Thanks all for responding - i appreciate it
im sure a lot of site denizens can relate a bit to my temporary despondency …bottom line is after all they are kids who play basketball for a great university and storied program … God help us if we become more and more like kentucky (an NBA training center that happens to be loosely affiliated with a school in Lexington)
Im sure ill be back soon to obsessively checking every post and get my head back into it once the wug games are on espn U
Go jayhawks and rock chalk JamTray!!!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thats the ticket
feeling better already
I luvs me my jamtrayMay have to watch the texas sequence a few more hundred times (Basketball porn … My favorite part is seeing Self off the bench going nuts)
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Respectfully, I think some are missing what is really important here. Is Traylor a good player?
As an example, @ParisHawk tries somehow to compare Traylor to Releford, stating, “As far as Jamari, yes there is criticism of his contribution and some people want him to see the floor less. Those same people love a 5-year player like Releford.”
The big difference between Traylor and Releford – Releford was good. Traylor is not. I like good players on the floor. And Traylor has not been a good player.
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The Past Is All We Know: All I can comment on is the past. And in the past three seasons, Traylor has usually been bad, or at least, “not good.” He’ll have peaks … some games where he shines, like Eastern Kentucky. But is normal game is poor. If Traylor performs at what has become his typical level, the fact is, he is the biggest threat to our possible success this season, as we head into next season.
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Crunch Question: There is a crunch question to ask yourself. This to me seems to be the best way to objectively assess Traylor real value – Ask yourself, would you be the least bit concerned if Traylor was out for the season? Of all of KU’s scholarship players, if you had to choose one to lose, wouldn’t it be Traylor?
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There Is No Specific Defense Of Traylor: When one looks at our games and the stat lines, Traylor’s minutes distribution makes no sense at all. It’s actually quite astonishing how a player that does so very little on the floor gets so many minutes. There we so many more arguments to be made for Brady Morningstar. Those that defended Brady had passion, and they pointed to specific things he contributed to the game. With Traylor, unlike other players, all we really get in defense of Traylor is “Self must be playing him for a reason.” We get no specific defense. That might indicate that Traylor could be viewed as the best option given other worse options. I believe that has been the primary reason for his playing time.
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No Scoring: Traylor scored 4 points or less in 19 games last season (not counting the Georgetown game where he was suspended). That is futility defined. Traylor had the worst points per per minute of any scholarship player except Lucas – .233 vs. .230. Both very bad. And in one very important category for a supposed power forward, Traylor scored at a very poor 54.8% at the rim. Cliff Alexander, by the way, scored at 68+% at the rim. An interesting question on Traylor, as noted by @jaybate-1.0 above – what does he do well offensively? What is his money-shot? We’re in year 5, and in my best Judge Smails voice, “Well, we’re waiting!!”
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Turnovers: Traylor can turn the ball over. Traylor turned the ball over.074 times per minutes. Compare that to Frank Mason, who handled the ball all the time at .061 and Devonte Graham at .063. Ellis was .059 and Cliff was .056. Dwight Coleby, by the way, was .044.
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Horrific Rebounding Per Minute: We know this well. Self rebounded last season at the embarrassingly low rate of .182 per minute (Lucas was .288, by the way). Justin Wesley is the only “regular” post player under Self that a worse rebounder. How can anyone ignore this from a post player? Compare Traylor to Coleby … the guy that got just 16 minutes a game for Ole Miss. I’ll take Coleby, who rebounds at .29 rebounds per minute. Coleby averaged 4.8 rebounds per game playing 16+ minutes per game, and Traylor averaged just 3.8 rebounds per game playing 20+ minutes per game.
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More on Rebounding: Traylor had 10 rebounds in an early game vs. a mid-major last season. Traylor followed that up with 7 against UK. But only had more than five rebounds just four times the rest of the season. What was really the issue with rebounding was the fact that he regularly disappeared - a majority of the time. In 24 games, he had four rebounds or less. But in 14 of those games, he had two or less. That’s astonishingly bad. It’s that sort of poor production that kills us in tight games.
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Free Throw Shooting: Did anyone notice Traylor’s free throw shooting? Right, Traylor shot 60% from the line last season, and 62% for his career. Again, another extremely poor statistical category.
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Undersized: Another killer when it comes to Traylor is that he is undersized. Self slipped last season in frustration and referred to our 6’5" post player (or something like that). Now, Traylor isn’t that short I don’t think. 6’6" is more like it. But he isn’t wide, he isn’t thick, and he regularly gets pushed around down low. He can’t hold his spot. This is a regular theme.
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The Myth of Energy and Effort: We hear about Traylor’s energy. We watch Traylor. We know it is a myth. He will have many high intensity plays, like the link cited by @wrwlumpy. But that is rare. His normal level of play is no where near the peaks. He is the picture of inconsistency when it comes to effort. He’ll get caught standing around when he should be blocking out, he will fail to tip a ball out off the rim, and he’ll be late helping on the backside. These failings are not unique. Most players have them. But I mention them because his supposed strengths are energy and effort. The fact is, he’ll make a highlight play or two. But the average product is, well, just average. And it certainly doesn’t erase his statistical deficiencies.
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Two Glimmers: The only glimmers with Traylor are that he gets some blocked shots, which is a positive. But most every block is coming from off the ball – I can’t recall him blocking the shot of the player he was guarding more than a couple of times. He also can grab a few steals. His activity in that regard is a positive.
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There Is Always Next Season: My view of Traylor is based solely on what I’ve seen. No one knows what he’ll do this season. The past, though, is an excellent indicator of the future, particularly for a guy who will now be in his fifth season in the program. For Traylor to be near a productive player, he’ll need to get significantly better in points, rebounds, and turnovers. Not likely.
This has nothing to do with liking Traylor personally, or his story, or rooting for him, or whether he’s a Jayhawk for life. This is business. And when one analyzes his on-court production, there is only one answer – from a statistical standpoint, Traylor is the second worst rotation level post player under coach Self (Justin Wesley being the worst – and yes, even Christian Moody was better). That is not good company to keep.
I want to win. I like good basketball players that lead to wins. That’s why I’m not a Jamari Traylor fan. It’s that simple.
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As an example, @ParisHawk tries somehow to compare Traylor to Releford, stating, “As far as Jamari, yes there is criticism of his contribution and some people want him to see the floor less. Those same people love a 5-year player like Releford.”
You misread my statement. I didn’t try to compare Traylor to Releford. I simply meant just because someone criticizes Traylor doesn’t mean he’s against 5-year players in general. The rest of your post illustrates what I said - or at least meant.
This is business
To some fans more, to some fans less.
I’m for giving the minutes to the players who can best help us win. Your arguments today address that.
I was not for offering Paschal Chukwu a scholarship to be taken away from an upperclassman who had already redshirted. I was a bit surprised by the amount of speculation about that. (Not saying you speculated, just indicating my own attitude.)
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Traylor is a solid player, but he is also a limited player.
Within his limitations, Traylor can make a lot of positive contributions. However, if you stretch him outside that, his limitations will begin to hurt the team.
First and foremost, Traylor is an effort guy. He isn’t either big enough or skilled enough to really be a D1 starter - at 6-7 he doesn’t have the size to be a regular PF/C and his skill level isn’t high enough to turn him into a solid scorer at either of those positions, either. He doesn’t handle well enough to move to the perimeter. So his best contributions will be hustling, defending and generating extra possessions with steals, hustle, offensive rebounds, etc.
Traylor should not be exposed to guarding bigger skilled guys for long stretches. It is unreasonable to ask him to guard anyone taller than 6-8 that has decent skills. He isn’t tall enough to do that, and a skilled guy will use his lack of size against him. You can put him on an unskilled big guy because he can use his quickness to frustrate a guy that isn’t a skilled shooter/ballhandler. But against a guy like Carlton Bragg or similar skill, he gets eaten alive because he’s just too small and has to gamble.
On the offensive end, Traylor is a two dribble guy. He can catch and put the ball on the floor once or twice, at which point he either needs to be shooting or passing. This means that most of his catches should be within 15 feet of the rim to give him his best opportunities for straight line drives to get dunks, layups and easy jump hooks within 8 feet. He has okay touch out to about 15, but only in the catch and shoot context. On the move, he isn’t a threat from that range. This means that all of his offense should be contained in a very limited area unless he is setting a pick and immediately diving hard to the rim to use his speed and athleticism to catch a lob or bounce pass for a dunk.
If you try to turn him into a ball handler, his turnovers will skyrocket and the concerns that @HighEliteMajor has expressed will manifest themselves.
All of that means that for Traylor to be most effective, he’s probably only a 15-18 minute per game player. Any more and he will start to have to do things that he isn’t very good at (ball handling, defending bigger players, shooting outside 15 feet) or he will become a liability on one end of the floor because they won’t guard him outside a certain range or he can’t match up with anybody either on the perimeter or inside.
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I don’t think anyone, even those like myself who see his shortcomings, think that it would be a could idea to have him on the court the same amount of minutes as Frank, Wayne or Perry. Like HEM said, and I can’t believe I agree with him, He is our best option by default. Pick someone else to take his minutes. Who? I simply think with 5 years of Bill Self Coaching and a heavy load of maturity that he will help the squad immensely. I see him helping much more than hurting us this year. Moody was better, Travis was better. Now it is Jamari’s turn to be a senior. I give him the same chances to be good his Final Season as the other two.
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@justanotherfan As always nice summation. Very similar to Kevin Young with his effort & motor, but the offensive level of D 1 is beyond his reach. Good garbage man vs the right match ups, but fully exposed vs the incorrect opponent.
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I don’t think the eyes should be focused on BamBam. Nor being too critical with expectations that he should play like a 5-star recruit. He has clearly made gains while at Kansas. We’ll just have to take what we can get out of him.
The eyes should be focused on those players that should step up and take minutes away from him. Diallo, Bragg… perhaps some Lucas and Mickelson…
The key is that we get solid play out of our post this year.
I know I’m glad we have Jamari. He definitely has his weaknesses… but he offers us an option and sometimes he works out to be a good option! This year will be different because we have more post options. When Jamari is having a bad game there is no reason why Self should give him lots of minutes in that game. Pull him and see if someone else can answer the call.
A lot of what will make Jamari stand out is not just created from his hustle. We have to draw up some plays to take advantage of his post slashing ability. We have to use him to his strengths instead of just using him for everything because we are desperate for post play. That was his situation last year. He was asked to do more than his capabilities… or perhaps what his esteem would allow.
He should be working on a mid range pull up shot. Opponents totally give him that because they back off, knowing how fast he can slash. Jamari could put up some decent offensive numbers this year if he can learn to hit pull ups in the paint and around the FT line.
The other thing he needs to work on is finishing in the paint at the basket. He needs to learn several shots that use his body, the rim and backboard to shield defenders from the ball.
If he can learn some of the two things I mentioned above, he’ll have a productive offense to contribute. He needs to learn this just to be considered on any kind of pro team after college. Even Europe… no one makes it there without some offense.
The last area where he needs to work on is his basketball IQ. If you review last year… you’ll see him make lots of bad fouls or get caught up on something and you’ll see him pull his hand up over his face and shake his head. He knows he got beat mentally. If he can learn the game better he can create lots of opportunities for himself.
Several “ifs” but his opportunity clock is moving quickly. Soon he’ll be gone from Kansas and then his life will be on a short timer… trying to sign on a team and make a living.
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Well my new nickname for jamtray is now Statistically Inferior Traylor, or The fitting acronym “SIT”, as in why isnt Self doing that more with him in favor of more SSP’s (Statistically Superior Players) Let’s hope SIT either plays consistently better in terms of stats, or he should, well, sit …
Hmm …I wonder if we should apply stats to all the posters here… Analize All the predictions in the last 3 years (has KU buckets been the vibrant basketball site for that long?) and strong opinions and aurgument cases made here that could be then matched to what actually happened to the team… Those whose predictions and models were more correct would be given a higher stat score and thus would be allowed to post more often (in essense more “playing time”), and those who’s predictions and arguments which didn’t come to pass would be “benched” and only allowed to post a small set number each month… Lets hold this site to the same high standards that we expect of our beloved KU basketball program!!!
( to borrow from Sir Bate, "no malice intended
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The person best qualified to judge how good Jamari is and how much he can contribute is Coach Self. His job and legacy depend on how well he judges players and wins games and so far he as done it better than just about any other coach in the business. We should trust his judgement since he has a lot more and better information on the players than all of us “Lazy Boy PGs” do.
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@JayHawkFanToo OK, but we enjoy trying to understand what is going on. Some decisions are easier to understand than others. I didn’t understand why Svi’s minutes went way down, and I was pleased to read an explanation. I didn’t understand why Mickelson didn’t get more minutes and I still don’t.
Maybe Self is successful partly because he is smart enough to listen to others, such as his assistant coaches. That would mean that even he doesn’t “trust his judgement” blindly.
What’s the harm in this discussion?
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“What’s the harm in this discussion?”
No harm… discussion is what this site is about.
But every once in a while someone in here needs to say what @JayHawkFanToo just said. Kind of a reality check and we all need it to keep the proper perspective. We all just come here to project our thoughts… gripes… and adulation.
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I did not say there was any harm in discussing this or any issue. I simply pointed out that we are all taking about players with only bits of information available while the opinion of the only person with all the information on the players and the one who knows what goes on behind closed doors is ignored, dismissed or labeled as incompetent.
I certainly hope that Coach Self listens to his assistants but at the end of the day it is up to him to make the final decisions…the buck really stops with him.
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…while the opinion of the only person with all the information on the players and the one who knows what goes on behind closed doors is ignored, dismissed or labeled as incompetent.
I don’t get the impression that Self’s “opinion” is treated that way.
I suppose that’s “the harm” I was asking about: you think the way some posters express themselves is dissing Self. I don’t see it that way, in particular in the present discussion.
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You musts have missed some of the more intense threads/discussions/posts about Coach Self…“dissing” is putting it very mildly…just my opinion.
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Jamari was our worst player last year, in part, because he was asked to play out of position. I remember him trying to stop ( was it Ridley?), and it was a total mismatch. I also think Wayne was asked to play the 2, even though his natural position was the 3. So, maybe Jamari won’t have to tangle with 5s, and that will help him. Would I like to see Jamari avg 20 minutes again this year? No, but i am more than willing to remain open minded about it. I fully expect Wayne to have a breakout at the 3, so I will hold out hope for Jamari as well.
I am reserving passing judgement because of what I call the “Frank” syndrome, where I hoped preseason last year that Devonte would beat out Frank because Frank’s spotty play during his freshman season. Boy, did he prove me wrong. So, I will defer judgement on Jamari, although I hope he doesn’t avg close to 20 minutes until he proves something more than last year.
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