So Much Depends on Svi
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@jayhawkbychoice said:
@drgnslayr Yeah, we just didn’t have the post depth that year. That was probably the reason for all the double teaming early in that game. In 08 we had 4 quality bigs and 20 fouls to beat the hell out of Hansbrough.
Sometimes I don’t understand the lack of objectivity of memory. Cole was a freshman and played about 8 important minutes the whole season. Yes, they were all against Hansbrough and it was a fabulous moment, but he was not a “quality big”. We had a 3 big rotation. How much did he play against Memphis?
2008: 3 man rotation, Cole got less than 10 minutes / game.
TRob’s sophomore season: definitely 3d man, there wasn’t a 4th.
We have been better when we could go 3 bigs deep than 4. We go 4 deep when we don’t have 3 of the best quality.
Same for the smalls: we went 4 in 2008, we go 5 when we don’t have 4 we can depend on. And don’t mention Rodrick Stewart, he got all his minutes when Rush was injured, then hardly played once Rush came back.
Please don’t take this as criticism, it’s just that I prefer sticking close to the facts. Depth past 7 is plan B , depth past 8-9 is plan C in case of injury. Self can’t even bring himself to give the young guys development minutes.
Self says in Korea everyone will get 20 minutes a game. Remember that and compare to reality later this summer. I hope for once he listens to himself.
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@ParisHawk I don’t take that as criticism at all, and you are right with your facts regarding Cole playing time as a freshman. Cole was a “quality big” that could only get less that 10 min/game on that team. You put freshman Cole on last years team and he would probably have been the #2 big behind Ellis. That proves my point. Dumbing down the playbook or not recruiting high fundamental, high BBIQ players at all positions hurts the team’s efficiency further down the road. And for what gain, 2 seasons with win totals in the 20’s? And you are exactly right about Self’s rotations. There is no reason why 5 star, Jr., Selden shouldn’t be able to rotate through all perimeter positions and be effective. If Frank, Devonte, and Svi are better at handling the ball, running the offense, and not giving up more on defense, then Wayne and Greene should sit. I think we’ll see this year that soph Devonte ranked in the 30’s (after reclassification) will be better at all aspects of the game than Jr. Selden, who was ranked 12th. So why is that? Why aren’t our guys progressing in yrs 2, 3, 4 like they used to?
I believe the high school ranking system is way more flawed now than it was then. They give no credit to players who just know how to play the game, have good fundamentals, had dad’s who coached, or came from storied/famed high school programs like RussRob and even Tyshawn. To much is made from hype and highlight films. The guys we have now like Frank, Devonte, Vick, and Bragg have enough talent and size that if they are given the coaching and reps in the system with the full playbook could be something very special trending up as their college years go by.
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I am for “dumbing down the playbook.” Too many plays mean that your offense constantly has to live off of set plays. By March, teams completely know our offense.
I’d rather have fewer plays and put the pressure on guys to develop their own shots in specific situations. It means less thinking and more performing. I think the stiffness we have in our offense sometimes is because guys are trying to think so much. Back in 2008, we had a veteran team that relied heavily on sets and “team offense.” That can work great when you have an experienced team full of great players. But there is a weakness to that approach. Predictability.
It is harder to predict how guys will create their own offense, and where. We were just a basket away from losing to Steph Curry and Davidson that year. And, of course, the Memphis game took a Chalmer’s bomb to take us to OT.
I would have liked to see that team run half the plays and force guys like RRob, Mario and BRush to create more for themselves, even a young Collins. Seems like BRush actually did it sometimes.
If players have less on their minds, then comes an important game, it should be easier to put in a few specific plays adapted to mismatches. For example… how is Svi going to score in the low post when he gets a mismatch and the ball?
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Let me first say I’ve always loved your posts and believe your one of the best on KUBuckets
Yet You said,
“Maybe you’re the one getting less credit than you want.”
Calling me out.
and now you say
“Sometimes I don’t understand the lack of objectivity of memory”
Calling out another poster.
What gives? If somebody doesn’t agree with you then they are just nothing and worthy of your wrath?
I’m more than willing to let things go and move on but man you seem a little on unfair in how you post.
I still don’t know what you mean when you called me out. I tried for a reply but no response.
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@DoubleDD Your questions are fair. I thought you were exaggerating when you said a new player didn’t get any credit from us, and you seemed to repeat yourself as if what you said didn’t get enough respect the first time around.
Sorry if I put you off.
As far as the “objectivity” post, I didn’t mean to call out an individual poster and maybe I should have said so.
I get the impression over the years that sometimes posters forget the differences between seasons. Cole was great but not his freshman year. TRob did not contribute his freshman year and played about 15 amazing minutes a game his sophomore year, then exploded as a junior.
Lots of bigs didn’t contribute until later in their careers.
If I say this, it’s only to be fair to the new guys by moderating my expectations. That may not be the best attitude. Maybe your positive outlook is better.
I’m surprised you talk about “just nothing and worthy of my wrath”. Did I really deserve that? If so, my apologies.
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@drgnslayr When I talk about the playbook, I’m talking about all the different options and looks that can from our “team offense”. There are so many options that if the players can learn and be efficient there would be no predictability. They could give a different look each time down the floor just through the different options, not to mention changing the tempo within the possession. The possibilities are almost endless. If a defense cheated more to a certain option, then there is always another option from another player to take advantage of that. It does require bigs that can hold their spot on the floor and guards to make the correct, accurate passes with proper timing.
And like you said, “Back in 2008, we had a veteran team that relied heavily on sets and “team offense.” That can work great when you have an experienced team full of great players.” Is that not what we have now, an experienced team full of great players? If that team did in fact have at their disposal 93 options on offense, why doesn’t this one? Does this team even have, say 30 options? And if not, why?
There are plenty of opportunities for players to be creative within the offensive system. And when they are creative in the system, it allows the other players to know what’s going on and be in position for rebounds, kickouts, and putbacks. If your talking about using ball fakes, head fakes, hesitation moves, etc., I’m all for that. And it wouldn’t compromise the system. But, if you’re talking about having a player just go rogue and do his own thing, that will compromise the system and all offensive flow. It would be even worse than everybody just standing around watching Wiggins two seasons ago. And if the offense breaks down and we’re up against the shot clock, we usually call the “4 up” which basically just clearing out for someone to beat their man off the dribble and go to the hole, or kickout, or drop off to a big.
Steph Curry was just an anomaly and we had so many TO’s in that game and didn’t shoot very well from outside, that it was a close game. And in the Memphis game, if it wasn’t for Rose hitting circus shots down the stretch we would have pulled away in that game too.
Speaking of Mario’s bomb, that was a set play. The chop play has like 6-8 different option that can be run off it. Mario hit another 3 off it in the 07 big 12 champ game to send it to overtime the same way. We ran it 3 straight times in the 14’ Stanford game with 3pt shots from 3 different spots on the floor. CF hit one on the wing and in the corner, and of course missed the one at the top of the key. We’ve seen other options from it too. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe we used it in 13’ Michigan game, and it got EJ that baseline drive which he kicked back out for whatever reason. And in 12’ we ran the same variation (sorry can’t remember the game) that got Tyshawn a baseline drive and dunk at a key moment.
So I guess my point is that the “team offense” and “set plays” do work and are more flexible than we may even realize. It’s just the players have to know how to execute. And basketball is their job, so I don’t think it’s too much to ask that they know the plays and can be able to execute them.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Me too!!! And sorry, ma’am, that’s the first time I cussed in a post. I’ll try not to let it happen again.
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To be honest I was more confused than anything. Alas all is good. Maybe our wires just got crossed. That will happen sometimes in this technological age.
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I am not sure I agree with your assessment that Cole was not a quality big; IMHO, he was. The reason he did not get more playing time is not because he was not a quality big but because KU had other…shall we say…better and more experienced quality bigs.
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Good post!
I wonder what percentage of offensive possessions we run actual plays?
I’d think not too many. We run plays out of timeouts and sometimes on inbounds moments.
I think they mostly run positional sets every play. That means… the guys know, on each possession, where they are supposed to be and what options they can run out of those positional sets. Like when we have a big up top to set ball screens. From these opportunities, players are supposed to create something.
Actual plays are called after timeouts, etc., and they run a play which is supposed to end on a score. If it doesn’t they have a fall back to run some offense with the remaining shot clock.
I’m not sure how much has changed since the 2008 squad. I think we’ve put in quite a few new wrinkles the last couple of years.
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@JayHawkFanToo Quality big or not, Cole didn’t play significant minutes. That was my only point.
By significant I mean real contribution, even if limited, to a win.
Name one game other than UNC where he had an impact.
The issue is not Cole’s quality but Self’s. As you said he had 3 better bigs so they played and Cole didn’t. Other coaches have depth, Self has reserves.
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Ah yes, I see your point…but that is not what you posted:
“Sometimes I don’t understand the lack of objectivity of memory. Cole was a freshman and played about 8 important minutes the whole season. Yes, they were all against Hansbrough and it was a fabulous moment, **but he was not a “quality big”.**We had a 3 big rotation. How much did he play against Memphis?”
See what I mean? You are equating being a “quality” player with “playing time” and this is where we disagree. Cole was a quality player but at that time, KU had better, more experienced options. Look at the third reserve in the USA National team, he is a superstar but does not play much because the two players in front of him are even bigger superstars. Do you see my point?
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@JayHawkFanToo Cole was not a quality player as a freshman. Neither was TRob (two fouls taking off his warmup to check in), or lost Withey his first year, or almost any other first year player at KU. Freshmen generally stink. That’s not a knock on the players those guys became after a year or two (or sometimes RARELY even during the season), but “quality” and “playing time” are actually pretty much the same thing on Bill Self teams*.
*other than Brady
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@drgnslayr I’m not sure what percentage. Some teams have more fastbreak possessions and some push the tempo more than others, and therefore take the first open shot before even setting up on offense. Yes we do run set plays out of timeouts and inbound situations depending on the shot clock. But I would say that we run team offense almost all of the rest of the time. Sometimes it may not look like it because the first option on the play may be the best, or they catch defense making a mistake.
There have been many wrinkles over the years to take advantage of different players strengths, but mainly because of having only 1 primary ball handler. Since Wiggins, I think Self has been experimenting on how to use a true NBA “3”, rather than another combo guard. And I have a theory that if say he did want to go back to a 3 combo guard lineup, he would have to wait until this core group of Mason, Selden, Perry, and maybe Svi are gone because they are already 3 years behind the curve of learning it. The core group of 08 only ran the system one way their whole careers, and just kept getting better at it. Since then some things have changed year after year after year. Poor Frank had to learn Wiggyball with 7 footer Embiid, bad ball, and God knows what this year. He wouldn’t know what to think playing without a 6’8"SF out there with him.
I think I’m ready for some good old fashion Self high/low, with combo guards, that is true combo guards.
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I disagree that quality and playing time are pretty much the same thing. Playing time depend on how many "better " players you have playing ahead of you; if there is no better player you will play, regardless on how good (or bad) you are. Ask @HighEliteMajor if he equates quality and playing time under Coach Self in reference to players like Jamari Traylor. A year or two under Coach Self and Hudy will give you experience and conditioning which will make you a better player but you have to start with quality otherwise you end up as a bench warmer.
Agree to disagree?
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I tend to think having shorter guards are just fine. The title team had rusrob, Collins and the tallest of the bunch Chalmers at 6’2. I like a line up of speed with Mason, Moonlight, Seldon, Elis, big D. From the videos I’ve seen the guy can run and this line up should be able to defend well. Hopefully Traylor has a good year I always thought he could be a trob type of guy for a 5th year senior he has to show up or could be the worse such player in the self era.
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I like short guards when they can all guard and offend like those three, you have the ultimate defensive stopper at 3, and Shady, Jackson and Kaun inside
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@JayHawkFanToo You’re right, I misspoke.
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Is Bill Self’s playbook holding back our freshmen? It does appear that freshmen are capable of thriving and piloting their teams to Final Fours and national title games in other programs. Prime recent case in point: Andrew Wiggins. During his year in Lawrence was Andrew merely putting in B+ Time, protecting the merchandise, so to speak? Not to denigrate his freshman scoring record at KU; but his first year in the NBA was a whale of a breakout season for a player who did not consistently astonish opponents or the Jayhawk faithful in crunch college situations. Perhaps the NBA game is played and coached and officiated so much differently that my point becomes moot. Or perhaps AW landed in a college setting which lacked the essential team surroundings to amp and showcase his athleticism. Oubre, perhaps, faced some of the same handicaps. Did the learning curve become so laborious that their potential was scotched and limited? I bring up this matter because of my current concern for Diallo, a spectacularly successful high school player, a high energy kid who came late to the sport and is projected as another one-and-done Jayhawk recruit. Will he become so entrenched in the playbook that his spontaneity suffers, even though he spends time developing essential skills which will blossom in time, but after he departs the Kansas program? I am asking lots of varied questions here. And, I suppose, my feeling is that freshmen are asked to learn too much too quickly in the Bill Self program. I am a very dedicated supporter of Bill Self Basketball, am on record as admiring, first and foremost, league titles. But I have been more than somewhat disappointed in our freshman one-and-done performers…and, of course, NCAA Tournament disappointments of our squads which possessed potential superstars who did not quite cut the mustard on the biggest stage.
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@REHawk Self’s playbook didn’t hold back Embiid.
Here’s what is strange to me:
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Some positions require more experience to be good, such as PG
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In Self’s system, bigs need to learn and do a lot, both on offense and defense: catching, passing, back to the basket, screens, hedging…
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Historically, the 3 is the spot where a freshman can start and shine.
So how could Embiid, in a position that normally requires experience under Self, outshine Wiggins who played the position most favorable to freshmen?
Maybe Wiggins’ 3 point shooting wasn’t fearful enough? Whatever the reason, his game was as repetitive as Embiid’s was exciting.
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@REHawk You know, I don’t think it’s the playbook. The offense thing isn’t that complicated. I think it is Self’s tolerance level. Just like folks have different tolerance levels as parents, coaches are the same way. Some coaches will tolerate certain errors. Some won’t.
I think you are right to be concerned about Diallo. Everyone should be concerned about Diallo. We just don’t know.
I am solidly on the record suggesting that OADs aren’t the best choice under coach Self. My opinion is coach Self driven to a large degree, and my perception of why he gives guys the minutes they get. I always have said that Brady made him feel comfortable. Like an old pair of shoes. He knew what he was going to get. EJ, by comparison, some high peaks, but perhaps some deeper valleys.
Cliff is a great example. No one will say that Cliff made unique mistakes. But my guess is that it was a combination of mistakes and other factors – demeanor, responsiveness, retention of info, repetition of the same errors, etc. One coach may have said, “Look, I’m willing to accept this stuff because he has higher talent, and I’ll get better production.” Another coach, not so much.
The same things that drive us crazy about coach Self, are what makes him a great coach. I’ve said this before – hard-headedness and “do it my way or the highway” can be a coach’s greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. In some moments, it works. In other moments, like the last two seasons, it didn’t always work. But the “didn’t always work” still resulted in excellent seasons, just not perhaps reaching each teams’ peak.
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Not the playbook.
Correct.
And so glad you have joined in debunking the myth of the complexity of the offense.
The offense that he wants them to run most of the time was designed for players to learn in three weeks for the Olympics.
Tyrell Reed was able to distill perimeter play to: don’t let it stick, feed the post, make the open look on a kick out, and make three passes before shooting. Shizz, that’s easier than the Oklahoma Shuffle that my high school team ran. Its easier than the double high post that my high school team ran. It makes the triangle seem like linear optimization.
The ancillary routines are simple, too.
The chop aka the Iba Weave takes about three reps for a junior high player to master. I know because my junior high coach had us learn it once.
Pick and roll has been played on play grounds in 2 on 2 for as long as I can remember. My brother and I used to run pick and roll on all the kids in the neighborhood when we bet who bought the bomb pops in summer time from the popsicle man on the three wheeled Harley with the cooler on the back.
Fade curls? Oh, man, that is not rocket science.
Frankly, the hardest thing Self asks them to do is all of these Bo Ryan derived race out high, catch and dribble farther out, then hook and drive right back in. And that’s only hard because of the timings and the stress it puts on the joints. L&As aren’t used to making those kind of 180 turns on the run. They like to fake once on the wing and take a few long steps and go 747.
Self’s defense is easy sheep dip too.
What is different about Self is how hard he expects guys to play on both ends without a break.
They have never done that before.
How hard our guys go is why Self has such a sterling W&L statement and so many conference titles. In the long grind of a season, the teams the play the hardest win the most games, because intensity can overcome talent in the long grind. But it can’t in the 6 game series that is the Madness. The Madness is all about healthiness,talent, execution, and referees wanting your team to win.
Because of how hard KU plays to win all those games in the long grind, KU is always among the most injured and among those showing the most wear and tear by March.
But there is another difference about Self and it goes to what you were pointing out. Execution. He is a stickler for doing things the right way up until one explodes to make a play. So: 95% of the game he is 100% intolerant of things done less than the right way. And 5% of the game, players get to impact their own way. And if their own way works, they get praise, and if it doesn’t, they get their butts chewed out. This is where the real mind-intercourse occurs for freshmen trying to break bad habits of youth. 95% of the time they strain to do it right; then just about the time they get it, they are supposed to go impact in their primal beast mode that got them recruited in the first place. Impacting undoes all the habituation learned the previous 95% of the game in many, if not most players.
It all goes back to this “both-ness” thing I have talked about regarding Self.
Self is a “both” type.
Never “either.”
You have to be able to play the controlled way and the uncontrolled way.
You have to be able to think and not think.
You have to be able to switch back and forth between these extremes.
And until you can do it, he is a nagging wife with you.
And, not surprisingly, this causes young players as much stress as it does young husbands.
You need at least two seasons to get used to Self demanding you to do both, because most players have never, ever, ever, ever, EVER had to do both before.
Both is a bitch.
Both hurts.
Both breaks you out of the temple of your familiar to borrow from Alice Walker.
Both is outside your comfort zone.
But both is where the big increments of mental development can happen.
Two seasons of nagging, of demanding a monster physical specimen named Thomas Robinson learn to play under control AND beast is what finally freed him into Superman.
Making lightening fast but contact averse 2 guard Tyshawn Taylor drive into contact and think about help, then when that didn’t work, make him play point guard and force him to think about everyone all the time while also driving into pain in the lane…that is what freed the greatness in Tyshawn.
Offenses and defenses can be learned in three weeks, learned to be executed flawlessly in two months,.
What cannot apparently happen in a single season for many (all?) players, no matter how talented, is to pass through the crucible of “both” and come out on the other end into a nonlinear improvement that a team can cornerstone on for a season.
Andrew Wiggins couldn’t do it, but he had such awesome talent that he could drop 14 ppg while he was caught in the crucible and his posse was apparently telling him to protect the merchandize and let Embiid be saddled to carry the team and take the blows. Andrew and the posse apparently understood that all Andrew needed were to showcase games one first semester and one second and he was then hardwired for the number one. Injury avoidance was the only rational course of action until the paychecks started. Let the big lion killer from Cameroon take the tough luv from Butcher Barnes’ boyz, not the next Lebron. And so it went. But I digress.
The point is: Self was born to coach’em up with the “both” thing. Its who he is. Its what he does. And he absolutely will not stop until he decides he has to let go or keep the team from winning another title. He let go of Andrew, when he realized Andrew couldn’t make it through the crucible in time to win conference. But all of that “both-ness” was layed into Andrew the first semester like a seed that would sprout in the NBA. It had delayed payoff. And that is why some smart parents insist on putting their kids through the Self Experience. It pays big dividends. Ask Mother Morris. Ask Tyshawn’s mom. Etc. Etc.
Self’s medicine works, but it takes time and it liberates few in a single season…so far.
But remember: Self is relentless about this stuff. He probably considers it a great test of his coaching ability to see if he can find a way to reformulate his “both-ness” crucible into a technique that gets results in a single season, rather than 2 or 3.
Persons that are great at anything, and Self is great at this, don’t give up the magic, because of an obstacle. They work the problem. And they keep working the problem. Self has been modulating himself and altering the scenery and stage directions endlessly since he committed to OADs.
He is trying to make himself do “both.”
Both induce the crucible that usually takes 2-3 seasons, AND find a way to do it in one season.
It may be the only challenge left that is keeping him coaching at all at this point.
He seems to have everything else wired.
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@REHawk One thing that has not mentioned as far as I remember is that Wigs plays on a particularly bad team. This is a team that was not playing for anything that required a winning record. He is also playing for a coach who is currently not on even a warm seat unless they stink for a couple of more years. This means that the coach can let Wigs and other rookies on the team do things that help them develop that he could never have done at Cleveland after LeBron came back. The Wolves were never expected to win very many games and they did not disappoint.
KU is not remotely in that situation. As much as we talk about allowing loses to help develop players, every loss no matter when in the season is viewed as a disaster . Bill Self obviously does not like to lose. The fan base is the same if not more so. Every loss is dissected on this and other KU boards as if the world as we know it is about to end.
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@sfbahawk Thank you for responding, you and Paris and HEM and jb. All of you have offered enlightening comments regarding my concerns. This OAD busines has to be challenging Bill Self to the max. And you are probably on target in surmising that the challenge is probably keeping his head in the college coaching game. Man, do I ever pray that Self’s stuff works well with Diallo. I might be misjudging that kid’s college potential, but his 2 MVP spring games marked him as a marvelous future talent, a player who can propel TV viewers straight skyward from the arms of their tired old recliners.
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I have learned not to doubt you on player assessments.
I am, therefore, amped to see Cheick.
