so no one starting a Perry Ellis Thread? guess I will
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@nuleafjhawk said:
Is this shoe thing really a …THING?
Unfortunately, brand loyalty is a thing - a real thing and it is, in my opinion, what makes the shoe sponsorship of teams so sinister at their core. I’d be willing to bet that of all the accoutrements that make up an athletic uniform the shoes are the things that kids (and anyone for that matter) would be least willing to compromise.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a hipness thing or cache sort of thing (though I’m sure there is a component to that) so much as a comfort thing. Case in point: my dad. In his younger days, my dad was an avid runner. He would only wear New Balance brand shoes as they were the only brand he found that had a wide enough toe. I can’t tell you how many times he lost the big toenail on either foot before discovering New Balance. From that point on, he refused to buy any other type of running shoe, understandably so.
My point is simply that there are reasons people buy Pepsi instead of Coke; why people are Mac devotees instead of Windows users; why people drive a Ford instead of a Chevy. It’s a personal choice and it’s awfully difficult to sway those choices once an allegiance has been developed. It’s why advertisers spend such an inordinate amount of money trying to influence us.
Interestingly, the reasons for brand loyalty are not always completely rational. If Wade Boggs taught me anything about baseball, it’s that superstition also plays a huge part in sports. If memory serves, he ate chicken before every game because of a particularly successful game early in his career after such a meal. If a kid has worn Nike shoes his whole life and has experienced success, he may not want to jeopardize that success by changing any part of his routine, including what shoes he wears. The old Spike Lee/Mars Blackmon Nike ads spoke to this with the “Is it the shoes?” refrain.
I’m not saying it’s right or that I like the shoe monopolies, but there is definitely a “thing” there. Maybe the solution is to get Pepsi or Coke to sponsor college athletics and let the kids wear whatever shoes they are comfortable wearing. Then, perhaps, we would see fewer college choices being dictated by footwear and more by things that most of us would look for in a school: coaches, academics, atmosphere, fan base, etc. Of course, instead of the hat ceremony at press conferences, we would then be subject to the Pepsi challenge. I think I could live with that.
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@tis4tim Good points. Plus, you reminded me I have two pair of New Balance in a closet in the other room.
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“Is this shoe thing really a …THING?”
The shoe thing is beyond a real thing… I’ve spent some time in the hood, and I still have some “hoodies” (bros from the hood).
“Uniform” is king in the hood. Clothes… shoes… they identify you with a group, and it gives you a huge part of your identity. Kids are killing other kids for their shoes, or just to eliminate their competing status.
Guess what these kids do when they get a hold of some cash? They buy shoes. I can tell you all some insane stories, very hard to believe, but true. Here is an example. A kid from the hood sold drugs and took his profits and invested in shoes. He lived with his mom, and suddenly they were homeless. He wanted to stay with his mom to protect her, but he had to worry about his investment… his shoes. So he paid a guy “rent” to live in his van with his shoes. And he never leaves his “vault” without having another bro stay there to guard his shoes.
Is this shoe thing real? Now you get a taste of why Nike and Adidas drop “Bs” (billions of dollars) on marketing. To obtain status. This is all about status… and it is all KING in the hood!
You can always tell which NBA players come from the hood. When they cash that first check, before they buy their momma a house, or drop some dough on their entourage… they buy shoes. They’ve had their eye on some collectables way before making it to the league. And when they buy a house, the most important part of the house is their closet to hold their shoes… hundreds of pairs.
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@drgnslayr WOW. I always knew I was naive, but I had no idea how flippin far in the sand my head was buried.
I still think it’s stupid. It’s actually beyond that, buy I can’t think of a proper word to describe it. " Mizzoulish " ??
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@wissoxfan83 Imelda? I dont get it.
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@nuleafjhawk I dunno Nuleaf, this is @jaybate-1.0 's theory. It seems to hold credence based on the fact that Nike is a billion dollar industry giant and we all should know what follows money? Power. And what follows power? Corruption!!! Its that whole absolute power/corruption verse we’ve heard time and again. I think its very valid.
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@JayHawkFanToo You do know that redstate is a website, don’t you? A causal one sentence about global warning? You had a similar post on another topic at about the same time. I don’t really care what your political opinions are. They are yours. This is not the place to air them.
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There was a dictator in the Philippines back in the 1980’s Fernando ? Marcos. His wife was infamous for owning like 8000 pairs of shoes. I was referring to that.
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@wissoxfan83 I’m working on that.
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Although I’d probably count as a dullard in your book too, I agree this isn’t the place to bring politics into things. The board will never be the same if we do.
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If you read all my posts from the time I joined this forum right after it started, you will see that I have mentioned on many occasions that politics should not be discussed, and this Forum should be strictly sports; more specifically KU Sports. In fact, and based on my complaining, @jaybate-1.0 at one point suggested adding “999” or something along those lines to threads not related to KU basketball.
I did not make a political point; my comment was in relation to the topic (being discussed at the time) of altering figures to fit different agendas and, in my humble opinion, global warming is a good example of that. I personally (as an engineer/scientist) do not see it as political issue, although I has been used in that context, but as an issue of professional and scientific integrity and my post was solely in that context. You will note that I indicated my willingness to discuss the subject it in a different forum (of your choice).
Again, I would respectfully suggest that you review my history on the subject before you pass judgement on me.
P.S. I do know what redstate.com is and I do not subscribe to it or any other publication that places labels. I get my news from several sources and then I form my own opinion.
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“I still think it’s stupid. It’s actually beyond that, buy I can’t think of a proper word to describe it. " Mizzoulish " ??”
Hood culture is a culture. It derives from many things. The more you know about it, the more it exposes why things are the way they are. All cultures have an organic process of how they got to be the way they are. There is an explanation for all of it.
We are all enriched by cultures all over the world, and hood culture has exposed many hardships from the struggle… but it has also given us all many great gifts, too. Music, dance, sports, art, food, written word, perspective… we have all been enriched by catching a taste from those who have shared their world with us.
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Hypothesis.
It just lets the facts attract around it and support it , or refute it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
What concerns me most is that I have seen no alternative hypotheses attracting more facts that support them. Hypotheses are supposed to include facts, not exclude them. Hypotheses that do not include remarks by Rick Pitino or exclude other facts and observations seem not inclusive enough. And I am for including all remarks by rick Pitino and others. Hypotheses are supposed to include the facts and be supported by the facts as they emerge. I am happy to consider other hypotheses that include the facts and fit the facts as they emerge. Seeking verified explanation is fun.
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Your generosity of spirit is commendable, but I would argue that we were not enriched by Nazi Culture and certain other extremist forms of virulent culture. Culture and cultural diversity are our friend, but even they should be held accountable. Persons raped and murdered and addicted to drugs by gang bangers, and organized crime, are not enriched by gang culture, or The culture of organized crime.
Otherwise, I agree with you we can enriched by good faith interaction with all forms of human culture.
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I finally found it. Here is the entire transcript of Pitino’s comments on the subject; I am going to guess that they can be interpreted in many different since they are ambiguous enough…although I find it hard to believe that he just found out about the shoe company’s influence.
Anything in particular on your list?
I think we need to deal with the … What I personally don’t like, and I’ve seen it over the past five years, I don’t like – I can’t recuirt a kid because he wears Nike in the AAU circuit. I mean that’s – I’ve never heard of such a thing, and it’s happening in our world. Or, he’s on the Adidas circuit so the Nike schools don’t want to recruit him. I never thought that shoes would be the reason you wouldn’t recruit players. It’s a factor. I think we need to deal with that. We need to get the shoe companies out of the lives of young athletes. We need to get it back to where parents and coaches have more of a say than peripheral people. That’s easier said than done. I don’t know how to do that. That’s like trying to get the runners out of the game. We try our best to do that, but I don’t know how to do that.
Do you think you’re at a disadvantage not being a Nike school?
I think our pool shrinks. Our pool shrinks. But, that being said, in the last few years we’re having some of the best recruiting classes that we’ve had in the last 13. It almost makes us – I realized looking back on it how much time and effort I’ve wasted because I wouldn’t believe what I just said.
Are there players who specifically said they can’t come play for you because you’re not …
No, they don’t say they can’t come, but the outside influences from the shoe companies and the AAU coaches know that if that kid goes to an Adidas school, he may not get renewed by Nike. It’s the outside influence. It’s not actually the kid who cares. But you know, if you guys are influential in a young person’s life and you said, ‘boy, you should really go to Kentucky, they’re a Nike school.’ He doesn’t have to say a Nike school, he just has to say Kentucky. Everybody’s in that court because you’re all working for that shoe company. I think that’s a bigger problem than whether you guarantee scholarships, but nobody wants to talk about that. Why nobody wants to talk about that is because it’s money related. Any time it’s money related, schools – University of Louisville makes a lot of money through Adidas, so you don’t really … I think it needs to be cleaned up.
I’ve always wished the NCAA would do it – I’ve written letters about it – I wish the NCAA would run the camps in the summertime so then everybody gets explained to them all the NCAA rules – what you can do, what you can’t do – by the NCAA. So they run the camps and they tell us when to go in and watch and they legislate all of that. That would be a great way to spend all that money, that war chest that they have. I don’t think they want to do that.
And by the way, I’m not speaking about a personal situation that just happened to us. That really wasn’t the case, believe it or not. I’m talking about, in the last five years, I’ve seen a tremendous change on this. Believe me, it’s a very competitive thing by these shoe companies to get players. I mean they’re going out and recruiting like us in the summertime. ‘Let’s get this kid in EYBL and this kid in Adidas Nation,’ and they’re competing like us for recruits. It’s very tough to address because our pockets are lined with their money.
Do you think there’s a relationship between their money and high school players?
I think the high school players are all getting shoes and they’re all getting uniforms to play in the AAU circuit. I don’t think there’s anything illegal, but they’re all getting shoes and apparel and the AAU programs are getting taken care of by the shoe companies. We all know that. It’s out in the open. Some of these AAU programs get paid a lot of money to run their program. There are the elite programs, and some of them are very good, very good. But what I’ve learned is, if I go in and there’s a Nike program and they’re getting paid a grand sum of money, Louisville’s not going to come in and recruit them. It doesn’t make sense because they might get that grand sum of money down the road if they don’t go to those schools. Same thing with Adidas. If they’re an Adidas school, the Nike …
I just learned this. I never believed it until the last couple of years. That’s a problem that needs more addressing, not to go off on this tangent, but that’s a problem that’s really prevalent in basketball.
Do you think there are a lot of other coaches who feel the same way?
I’m sure the Nike coaches don’t feel that way (laughs). Because they’re winning the battle.
**Why have you been successful (recruiting) despite that advantage? ** It took me a long time to realize who I’m going after and we’ve finally done a good job with that.
So you stay away from Nike kids?
No, not stay away, we just know the programs that are really influenced – the really marquee programs – that are influenced by them. It’s not just Nike. Under Armour’s a big player in this now. Under Armour’s become the second-largest (apparel) company in the United States, right? They’re competing and competing hard. I wish it wasn’t there. I think it’s going to be there a long, long time, as long as we’re getting paid by those schools.
If that’s the case, then how do you adjust long-term? Do you recommend going to Nike?
No, no. I don’t think that’s the answer. The answer for us is to find out what athlete is involved in which AAU program. How loyal is he to that AAU program? What outside influences in that program push him and direct him toward Nike schools. So we have to do our homework and be very diligent. Obviously the last two years, we’ve been very diligent because we’ve had great success.
Before the new Adidas deal, was that something you addressed with Tom or anybody in the athletic department?
I have my own choices to make for which shoe company. I’m sort of separate from the university in that regard, though we’re sort of tied in together. I’m very comfortable where we are with Adidas because we’re having great success. If I didn’t feel we were having great success, I would recommend that we go with Under Armour or go with Nike, whoever it may be. It was my fault, not the shoe company or the university, that I didn’t do a good enough job finding out and researching how big certain factors are with certain people. It’s nobody’s fault but my own.
Is there a concern, being one of the higher-profile programs, that whatever comes that way that you’re connected with them vs. Nike?
As long as you do your homework, you’re fine. I didn’t do my homework. The shoe companies aren’t to blame. They’re playing the ultimate competitive game. Who can be No. 1? Right now, Nike’s No. 1. Under Armour’s making a push. They’re competing like we’re competing. We’ve got to make sure that we know that it doesn’t matter to the kids. Those kids are the kids we want to go after.
FWIW, this is what Rob Dauster of College Basketball talk on NBC had to say:
I have a couple thoughts on this:
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There’s zero chance that I believe that Rick Pitino found out about shoe company influence in the last five years. Zero.
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I think the influence that these shoes companies is a bit overblown. Andrew Wiggins, the prospect with the most marketability that has come through high school ranks since LeBron and Kevin Durant, was a Nike kid all through high school. He went to Kansas, an Adidas school. In this year’s recruiting class for Kansas includes Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre, both of who were Nike kids and are two of the best pro prospects in the Class of 2014. Duke just earned a commitment from Chase Jeter, who played his AAU ball with the same Adidas program that produced Shabazz Muhammad.
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That said, I believe that what Pitino is saying about shoe companies is precisely what happened with Blakeney. The kid picked an Adidas school, the people around him — those that make their money from the swoosh — were not happy about it, Blakeney decommits. It’s not a pretty situation, but I’m not sure it’s the epidemic Pitino makes it out to be.
Lots of “food for thought” for the thought foodies…:)
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Quite a read.
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@wissoxfan83 Dang, thats a lot of shoes.
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Remember this was a thread about Perry Ellis and the arguments for his leaving/staying?? Yikes !
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This link has most everything you need to know about Perry staying or leaving.
One question, if Perry leaves, does KU become a better option for some of the top players since it frees 30+ minutes per game for the 3/4 position?
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“Persons raped and murdered and addicted to drugs by gang bangers, and organized crime, are not enriched by gang culture, or The culture of organized crime.”
I couldn’t agree more. Everyone has to be held accountable, especially when it comes to crime. The criminal aspect of the hood is the hardship aspect I mentioned. No one knows more about being victimized than those who live in those neighborhoods. It is part of the overall situation that actually entices more people to become criminal, like after everything they ever worked to own is gone and they are at a very raw survival moment in their lives. I’m dealing with a kid right now who lives with his grandma and when she was hospitalized everything from their unit was stolen. They didn’t even have a cup to drink from. I’m busy finding as much work for this kid as I can because they have to survive, and if he can’t get it by finding work, he’ll have to get it in another way. Most of us have options even in our lowest moments, but not everyone is blessed with options, often for many reasons, it isn’t just an issue of race.
The largest hurdle in the hood is education. Kids who take on the challenge and develop their minds will end up having an opportunity to leave the hood, or stay and fight to improve it. Good decision-making is the biggest reason why people remain down.
So when the NCAA pulled the plug on Cliff it hit home with me. Part of it was that it hurt his chances to make a living at basketball… another side of it was he just lost his free-ride to an education.
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Thank you very much for posting this. It was because of the portion of this you directed me to previously that I evolved my hypothesis into the ShoeCo-agent complex and the entirety of this supports having done so, plus raises the issue if there were another piece to add to the ShoeCo-agency complex. Excellent virtual shoe leAther on your. Thanks again!!
P.S.: what I am trying to say here is that this evidences the existence of a shoe co-agency complex and that it exerts influence to significant but as yet not transparent degree. Further, this complex does not seem to explain on it’s own the entirety of the apparent phenomena of biased officiating and seeding and anomalous talent stacking. Therefore, one infers another element of the complex may be waiting to be found and so far everything appears to be legal is the hypothesis has assumed.
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Since in principal the purpose of a university is to educate persons and develop them for society, it seems to me, as a layman, questionable whether the NCAA, the University, and the athletic department, fulfilled their function to Cliff Alexander, if he committed no crime and if he did not take out a loan. It appears at the very least not fair
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It seems very unfair to Cliff. None of us know his family dynamics. We can only speculate if he “should have known better.” Or… did he know better? Did she know better?
It feels like Kansas didn’t hold up their end, but we can only speculate. I have a hard time Kansas athletics hasn’t thought of this before and has a policy for preventing as much as possible. I’m not going to point a finger at anyone, only worth mentioning that the system, somewhere, is broken. Cliff shouldn’t be stuck out in the cold.
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@drgnslayr wonder if we will ever know? What a pain for all to live w/!
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@drgnslayr I am going back to what I’ve posted before. My daughter plays club ball AAU tourneys and even at BIG tourneys in middle school she had to watch a NCAA rules video. Now there is no real WNBA money or shoe money here for women but the rules are the same for men . Now we go to high school tourneys and these videos are required at most every tourney, including parents signing documents they know the rules.
So as Bill Self states it is not against the rules to talk to an agent. But extra benefits ARE illegal and what ever scumbag got involved with Cliff/or his family deserves to have a court order stating he can NEVER have contact with an amateur athlete again.
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@jaybate-1.0 So you’re saying its an hypothesis?
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@wrwlumpy The longer he waits, the more I lean towards him leaving.
But I fundamentally disagree with the writer. I would agree if he averaged 18 and 8 this year.
Ellis is a classic in between player. But with the same size of Marcus Morris, and noticeably more explosion, why can’t he get drafted like Marcus Morris. Obviously, it depends on the draft class. But not draft class has a the massive chasm of 14th lottery to middle in the second round.
Stay another year, show consistent explosiveness, handles, and outside touch and he is definitely a first round guaranteed contract.
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@wrwlumpy Huh, that guy makes a good point. But, conversely if Perry wont change his draft stock no matter what he does. Why not come back another year? Getting picked in the second round is no guarantee at all. Your fighting for a spot on the roster with everyone else in the second round, free agency, etc. Perry is imo, too slow to be an NBA 3 and too small to be an NBA 4. Unless he gets picked by the perfect team, he’ll end up as a D leaguer. Maybe its just my bias, but I would like to see him on Senior night at KU.
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Right on!
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I don’t think the writer of that story has much of a grip on the reality of this situation.
This idea he presents… that if a player isn’t getting better, he is getting worse is silly. First off, Perry has improved every year as a Jayhawk. This past year he established his perimeter shot. The idea that NBA scouts peg a player early and leave him in the same spot is just 100% false. We constantly hear about scouts attending games. They constantly update their player evaluations because players change. Heck… some of them are even still growing in college (height). Players blossom all the time. All ex-players are familiar with either themselves (or others) that suddenly hit another gear. Sometimes it is a real puzzle when it comes. I hit my biggest gear change in my late 20s.
If Perry leaves now, he will leave in a bad draft year for players that aren’t in that very top tier. There are just too many quality players coming out this year, most are not seniors. These guys typically get picked first. If Perry goes in the second round (or even third) the chances are completely likely he ends up in d-league… $25,000 for a 50-game season. That is a heavy opportunity price to pay for not sticking it out at KU and earning his degree and also having the spot light for one more year to try to lift his position.
The “player is getting better, or getting worse” card here is played around the idea of Perry QUITTING Kansas. It should be a motivational tool for Perry to absorb and fight that much harder to improve his game and STAY at Kansas and not be a quitter.
Euro-ball is a complete crap shoot. It is a false panacea that is always presented as an option for guys who can’t cut it in the league. Truth is, few American players make it overseas. Few players are cut out to go abroad and “do it alone.” The sacrifices of being out there alone is the first big hurdle. The cultural differences are another huge hurdle. And the basketball infrastructure is the third hurdle that makes it hard for players to pick up. These college kids need to hear the reality about it before thinking it is their definite backup plan.
Personally, I think Perry would be nuts to leave early. I view him as a very smart young man so I’m betting he returns.
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According to Matt Scott there is going to be an announcement about a player tonight at the Banquet.
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@Statmachine Hopefully it’s Perry coming back, 'cause there isn’t a third round of the draft.
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@Statmachine Ohhhhhh reeeaaally?
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@dylans @Statmachine.Just posted on kusports.com Perry is coming back for his Sr year. And all the people said…Amen !!
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@globaljaybird Yep, the twitter verse is blazing about Perry coming back. Its official now.
So now we need to get Diallo in here and maybe Ingram or Jaylen. ROCK CHALK FINAL FOUR!
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Does anyone know what is keeping Perry from being a Marcus Morris?
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@globaljaybird THANK YOU PERRY. I HOPE YOUR LAST YEAR AT KU PAYS BIG DIVIDENDS FOR YOU ALL THE WAY AROUND!
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@JhawkAlum maybe he’ll make that next step this coming year.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I sure hope so! I see the same skill set with better explosion!
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“Does anyone know what is keeping Perry from being a Marcus Morris?”
Good question. I think Perry is working towards that. I know he hasn’t advanced as fast as we all wanted him to… but we should consider the glass half full because he has advanced just fast enough to be a crucial part of our team and hang around all 4 years! We always say we want 4 year guys?! Here is a 4-year guy. If he had advanced his game just a bit faster, he might not be back next year and finish his degree off-campus.
Perry has made a very steady improvement all 3 years he has been a Jayhawk. He is going to advance his game this year, too… maybe even take the biggest leap in his game because he knows this is it for his NBA tryout! Plus… Perry knows the role of seniors. And he is a true Jayhawk so he wants to leave behind a legacy. He will be reaching for the record books… not just to prove himself but by focusing on team goals.
I do believe we will see a very different Perry Ellis this year… and it is all good!
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@drgnslayr I like your enthusiasm! I just don’t think he possesses the attitude of taking over a game like Marcus Morris did.
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I don’t really see Marcus as an alpha dog. He didn’t even want to sign with a NBA team without his brother on the same team (and vice-versa).
I do think Marcus is stronger than Perry and uses his body better to create scoring space. That is a huge factor for Perry and he should be working on that.
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@drgnslayr Marcus could also rip someone’s head off if he so desired! I’m hoping he didn’t!
