BAD BALL: OU GAME MAKES CLEAR--THE DOG HUNTS!
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If he is not bumping any one that will offend the recruiting supply line, then he will always play quite a bit. But never when he is IMHO.
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@KUSTEVE I’ve posted elsewhere that this team is taking on some of the characteristics of the '11-12 team - but that’s primarily from a toughness, grind-it-out mentality. That team really wasn’t that talented - at least in terms of NBA caliber talent - and which struggled offensively for long stretches.
But, I don’t think the teams compare well on a person-to-person basis and on their core strengths. That team was really tough down low - a truly great rim protector in Withey and low post beast in Robinson. Really good perimeter defenders, as well, all with size. They were tough to score on. But, offense often ended up being Taylor driving as the clock shot was expiring.
I would also note that team won 8 straight games or something like that headed into the B12 tourney (lost to a ranked Baylor team in the semis).
The comparison with '11-12 is that I think we are indeed capable of grinding out 4 wins to make it to the FF (depending on match-ups, of course). Recall that team was ekeing out wins - only “easy” one was UNC. But, we also have very little margin for error and it wouldn’t be shocking if we fell to a 15 or 14 seed in the first round.
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@Lulufulu Anything I can do.
But I am open to learning here. Self is the master. If Kansas wins three in a row in the Big 12 tourney playing this way, that will say something. I just have tough time envisioning three in a row with this offensive style, combined with our roster. I get it if we’re big, mean, and muscular inside. But we’re not. Playing and beating three good Big 12 teams in a row will really tell me that this dog hunts. I’m usually not the gloom and doom guy on the NCAA tourney – I don’t like being that guy.
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@DCHawker Good point … can we borrow a Thomas Robinson and Jeff Withey somehow?
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@HighEliteMajor Hah. Well, we weren’t supposed to have to borrow them. Coming in, Alexander was supposed to be the low post load and at least I thought Mickelson could be Withey-lite - certainly showed comparable shot-blocking skills even earlier in development. Hasn’t quite played out that way. Maybe Cliff gets back in time for the tournament (sure) and the light goes on for him and Self has simply been hiding Hunter and he breaks out our secret weapon.
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@DCHawker et al,
This team compares well with no previous team, because no previous team has ever been this weak in the front court, only one was this young on the perimeter, and no KU TEAM has ever played Bad Ball.
This is a new frontier and that is why Self is so juiced, despite the frustrations. This really IS a new challenge!
It might never happen again if a bumper crop of OADs signs. And if they don’t it is the blue print for next year.
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@HighEliteMajor Withey is available as New Orleans isn’t using him.
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@Crimsonorblue22 It’s like an allegiance HCBS has to his more experienced players. This has been cussed and discussed many times on this board and the other board. I think you said “because he was due” when someone commented about sitting Selden or giving Selden the final shot. It’s like HCBS will give someone like Selden forever to break out of a slump, but not let Svi have the same opportunity. Yesterday’s game was a throw away game that should’ve been the opportunity for Svi to put up some 3’s. Selden had his chance and it didn’t help. Would’ve been a good chance for “bonehead” too if he hadn’t screwed his teammates. And since I brought up “bonehead”, how many more chances does one get under HCBS to be a “bonehead” who apparently puts himself before his team? And I’m not talking about Cliff.
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@wissoxfan83 No I really dont think its overly optimistic. Last years team went 3-3 the last 6 games too and they folded to Stanford. Nothing about this years team says fold to me. Nothing.
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@jaybate-1.0 Only comparison I was making was the toughness of '15 compared to '12
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@KUSTEVE I agree. This team can make a run as long as we are healthy. Perry and Mason will be the keys but other guys will step up.
Our 3-3 record in the last 6 doesn’t bother me. How me play in the Big 12 tournament doesn’t really get me that excited. It just isn’t that relevant. How many times have we come into the NCAA on fire and then simply laid an egg? Quite a few. 2010 and 2011 come to mind.
It is all about winning and advancing. UCONN last year is such a great example of this. They limped into the tournament. Got beat by Louisville by 35 late in the year. Barely beat St. Joe’s in the opening round of the tourney as a 7 seed! They scrapped. They won games they trailed in. They beat taller and more talented teams. They simply dug deep and played “tougher” than the competition. This is a tough KU team. Mason is tough. Selden is tough. Perry has been playing his most aggressive and inspired basketball of his KU career. I think we tough our way to a good run as we did in 2012.
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@brooksmd I was kidding about Selden having that shot! Playing the odds. Seldens minutes have been dropping. Svi getting minutes, but not there. BG would have helped!
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“No I really dont think its overly optimistic. Last years team went 3-3 the last 6 games too and they folded to Stanford. Nothing about this years team says fold to me. Nothing.”
I don’t follow that logic.
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"Believe or not he the High low seemed to work better without Ellis in there. Not really sure why? But it was working. KU actually had inside passing. "
I think it worked better because it fit the skill set and roles of Landen and Hunter. Perry is a bit smaller and just doesn’t post up well with his back to the basket. Perry is more the interior slasher.
I think this was a great game for Landen and Hunter to become more our 5 guys moving forward. Both are capable of making the interior passes needed in the hi/lo. And with Perry back, they can be feeding him to score! I’d use Jamari more as a back up for Perry because he can be a very effective scorer as long as he is slashing and not taking the midrange jumper.
We all have to remember that the hi/lo is Self’s bread and butter. Who says he is really good at coaching anything else on offense? We know he is capable of coaching the hi/lo well.
“Playing and beating three good Big 12 teams in a row will really tell me that this dog hunts”
That would definitely prove “this dog hunts.” But even if we don’t… we at least should make quality games moving forward. Really… two of our recent losses came on last second give ups. If we can tighten up our last second defense, we will be a lot more effective in the win column. This BAD BALL always produces close games… meaning… close endings. This area seems to be the most-important area to work on moving forward.
Examine most of our March losses and it points to last second possessions. This has always been our Achilles heel.
From here on out… our guys really have to put in the extra reps in practice on the FT line, and work on good last possession defense. The OU loss was a hard fought game we deserved to win, but we collapsed and gave away the weak-side rebound. Every one of our guys should have been hustling back to get that rebound… we gifted it to Buddy instead.
These open-court drives kill us. Our guys need to learn a bit more about hedge defense to take away the drive. It usually doesn’t totally prevent the drive, but it definitely helps slow it down. Svi did a good job hedging Buddy when he turned it over on the spin move. Svi hedged him and forced him into it. Buddy screwed up because he was used to Kansas players giving him his right-side drive.
The reason it worked is because Svi realized where his position was in relation to the basket behind him and Buddy in front of him. He pinched off the direct drive.
That is different than what Frank did at WVU, giving up the spin drive to the hole from Staten. Frank went out of position. He didn’t realize where he was in relation to the basket. He gave away the direct drive to the rim.
This is all about learning hedge defense.
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@drgnslayr and we need to pray that Ellis is strong!
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It has been a real thrill watching Perry’s recent aggressiveness! It’s like a light went on in his head. You can even see a bit of swagger with him! He’s on the right track! He keeps going like he is the NBA will become a real possibility in his future!
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@drgnslayr I meant I hope he’s recovered!
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@wissoxfan83
I’m surprised anyone doubts this hypothesis. Why would you play a guy that wouldn’t get you more recruits instead of one that would, if they were about equal? And as I said, it’s not just about SHOECO-AGENCY COMPLEX dynamics, but about basketball factory academies and AAU and highschool coach feeder systems, too. Who plays IS recruiting!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Just an observation, but we only beat them by seven at home at full strength. You might recall that we were down 1 with 3:45 left in the game, went four out/one in, and that sealed the deal – and thank you for giving me the lead in to mention four out/one in again. I don’t feel complete if I can’t mention that at least daily.
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Funny thing about Wayne Selden. Has anybody noticed that he was voted as honorable mention all conference. This is not too bad for someone with 2 left feet and 2 right arms who can’t get out of his own way and only plays because he is obviously the coaches pet.
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@sfbahawk ouch!
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@jaybate-1.0 Did you read this weeks Sports Illustrated? It had a couple of articles about college basketball and especially scoring going to hell in a hand basket. I actually liked what they call the style of ball we have been playing of late. Instead of BAD ball in is VOMIT ball.
Since you introduced the term my only problem is that “bad” has the connotation of inept. Can’t dribble, shoot, pass, etc. While there may be times this might be the case, what you seem to imply is “good” ball is fun to watch, flows, and lets players demonstrate their athletic prowess. I like vomit (or ugly) as an adjective because it describes something that is aesthetically lacking rather than something that indicates complete lack of talent.
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@joeloveshawks When I point out they remind me of 2012, it took a very poised team to play that focused at OU. This was not a team that blinked one bit having 3.5 players out. They came from 10 down on the road to a top 15 team, and damn near beat them. They have to learn to be on the right side of these squeakers, but I’d rather lose a few now if it helps us learn to win a close one or two in the tournament. That 2012 team simply out toughed teams 5 straight times in the NCAA tourney, and this team has similar potential.
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I started the season thinking this was a team lacking all the pieces it needed to be very good. It has never seemed like a talented team, it seemed like a team with slow to develop 5-star 4–our own LeBryant Nash, two OAD’s, and one injured TAD. The rest were projects and long shots. When one of the OADs did not pan out, and we had no 5, It seemed potentially worse than the 8-10 loss team I expected initially, IF things broke good with injuries and players developing. Injuries broke bad. Development broke bad and good. To me, if Self hadn’t invented this new way of playing we would have 12-15 losses.
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“And since I brought up “bonehead”, how many more chances does one get under HCBS to be a “bonehead” who apparently puts himself before his team? And I’m not talking about Cliff.”
You talking about a player or assistant coach?
“Why would you play a guy that wouldn’t get you more recruits instead of one that would, if they were about equal?”
I really hate how college basketball has just turned into nothing more than a recruitment battle.
It is because coaches just don’t want to put the energy into developing players. They just want to recruit the most athletic players possible and then spend little time developing, and more time recruiting the next batch of cheetahs. It sickens me. I think Calipari has stolen the bright lights and all other coaches are now in mimic mold; putting on their plaid salesman pants and hit the streets going full-time on recruiting.
Does anyone in here really think Snacks knows how to develop players? Or was he just a pick up to help recruit in Chicago?
Imagine if we JUST focused on development? Get the word out and then sign up hungry 4-star recruits that want a ticket to the NBA.
Maybe I’m just not realistic any longer…
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@jaybate-1.0 I’ve been reading your stuff for a decade now I suppose. You’re one of my KU heroes. But my eyes glaze over when you start writing stuff like “SHOECO-AGENCY COMPLEX dynamics” because I really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
Put it in simple terms. Why isn’t Mickelson playing?
@KUSTEVE do you think a lack of Danny Manning on the bench will handicap this team in March? To me, that’s one of the differences between our team now and then.
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@drgnslayr Greene
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@wissoxfan83 That’s one of our biggest problems - we have recruiters sitting on the bench …no Manning…no Dooley…i’m thinking Snacks will be gone at the end of the year, and hopefully we can add someone that can recruit and coach.
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@wissoxfan83
Landen Lucas, Portland MSA, pop. 2.3 million
Hunter Mikelson, Jonesboro, AR, pop. 71k
My guess is that Portland produces more players than Jonesboro. My guess is it helps Kurtis recruit PORTLAND if Landen is playing more than if Hunter is.
Next what if Devonte and Conner Frankamp were about equal? Devonte comes from a basketball academy highschool that produces several D1 prospects each season. Conner comes from a highschool that infrequently produces 1 D1 prospect each seAson. Who do you suppose might help you gain access to recruiting players?
Same hypothesis for Jamari and Hunter.
Same hypothesis for Cliff and Hunter.
Regarding Big Shoe, Agents and Agent runners,re-read what Rick Pitino reputedly said about agents and agent runners reputedly influencing recruiting in some way related to shoe companies and schools.
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@KUSTEVE As has been made painfully obvious we don’t have any idea what the coaches sitting on our bench really do. Because Danny was one of the better college players of all time and he was a “big” we assume that he was what made “big man U”. Regardless of the fact that Self had Norm Cook and other bigs at Illinois who were very good. We guess that Joe Dooley had a great influence on Self and was the offensive guru. He is gone so we are sunk. We know that Norm and Kurtis are good recruiters because Self has credited them will some of our better finds. Other than that what do they do?
Snacks is credited with getting Cliff and has been alluded to have great Chicago creds. Can he or can he not teach the best way to set a screen?
Unfortunately none of knows Jack about what any of these people do or have done on a daily basis as assistants at KU. We know NOTHING about how TRob or Withey or Brandon or anyone for that matter was developed at KU other than the head coach was Bill Self.
Basketball in general has gone into the crapper in the past 10-15 years with very few players having basic, fundamental skills. There is almost no one who would argue with this. Slayr is correct that boxing our for rebounding is sadly lacking. One would think that a good assistant would teach them this. Along with the other thousand and one things that they do not know. Of course this is stuff that a good 5th grade coach would be teaching but for whatever reason is not.
This has nothing in particular to do with you but it drives me nuts to spend so much of my life (my wife thinks that I an crazy and she may be right) reading what I assume are reasonably bright people who jump to all sorts of conclusions on a myriad things for which we know nothing.
Where do you or anyone suggest that we find these people who can replace all of the people we are going to fire? Why are they going to be able to teach our next group of recruits things that they have shown no interest in learning since they have not developed the them after 8-10 years of playing by the time we see them?
This is just another example of a problem that we see. Let’s pretend that it is a little cut. We pick and pick at the scab and soon enough we are convinced that we have gangrene and will have to cut our arm off.
Fortunately the year will end. Another will begin with 2 or 3 people we are convinced walk on water. After a few months we will realize that they don’t and we will analyze the hell out of the situation and be certain that whatever the coach has decided should work has no chance. Is this really the “Great Mandala”.? I guess only JB knows for sure.
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@KUSTEVE Did Wayne Selden look hurt to anybody on this board when he stripped that WVU player at midcourt and raced down for a tomahawk jam? That may have been before the turned ankle, but its hard to argue season-long-hurt.
I may like Wayne Selden a lot, but Im not giving him an out, especially if he plays for Bill Self. I’m just waiting for a 19-20yr old kid to become more consistent. NBA body, but he’s no DWade yet. But he has shown flashes in all areas. The most consistent thing he’s done since Day 1 is defense. And true to his word, the summer before his frosh season, he said he was committed to defense first.
So he kept his word, and even played hurt many times. I want him to have a good pro career, so I do want his offense to come around. But if he comes back for another season, Im all for that, as that’s good for Wayne, and that gives Self a solid upperclassman glue Mickey D to run “our stuff”. (Along with upperclassmen Ellis, Jamari, Landon, Hunter, Greene, Mason…).
Man, where are we going to put the 12th banner???
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Instead of BadBall, call it what it is: BadAssBall.
Note to FreeThe3 Movement: When the 3gun went silent vs WVU, rough&tough got us the W. Against Huggo-Muggo’s bunch, no less. One of the most brutal games I can recall KU in, after that infamous game @Cal 4yrs ago. And we won both.
Here’s the biggest problem I have with the FreeThe3 Philosophy: Its reproducibility. Man, not even IowaState (Free3 poster-team) can corral that silly-but-damning concept of regression-to-the-mean. And the most interesting twist of all, is that this season’s stats (in conf) proved that KU was a better 3 shooting team than IowaState.
Another practical point on the 3-shooting reproducibility thing: Look at the very best: Greene, even he has fallen off. Wayne got hot, now cold. Frank was over 45% for the season, then cooled off some. Say the same for everybody on IowaState. And as someone who has loved the 3ball personally everytime Ive played basketball in the last 30+ years: some days you just cant hit the ocean. It happens to the best. It happens to Ray Allen, even. And we are looking to college players, and underclassmen, no less…to be consistent from 3?
But, if you have an identity about toughness and defense, that is more about brute mindset. Its about reflexes. Its less about finicky muscle memory, affected by varying “springy-ness” in muscles day-to-day, various brands, touch, and weights of basketballs used by various schools, by the lighting, by the temperature, by the pucker factor of game situation, espn day crew distractions, Texas redhead math major katoongs distractions, yada, yada, etc, etc, etc.
Toughness is who you are and who you’ve become. Not something you have to “run a play” to try to get. Want consistency? My god, why would you look to the 3ball for that? Especially when the 2 best 3 shooting teams in the conference (KU & ISU) just got done proving that its NOT consistent. Toughness is at your core. The 3ball is but a tool in the armamentarium, don’t know if you’ll be “on” or not. Was Russell Robinson’s or Thomas Robinson’s toughness ever turned off? I could get teary-eyed reminiscing how TRob even tried to bring his toughness the day after his mom died…
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I presently am content with our assistants even though I don’t know their daily duties.
I hope Snacks is finding another outlet for stress and can lose some weight for his heart’s sake.
I suspect fundamentals taught are changing as the game changes.
My dad was taught a sliding two hand set shot as a fundamental in the 1930s. It ceased to be taught in a game taken over by jump shooting.
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Did not see the SI story.
Vomit Ball?
I don’t like tossing pizzas, so the term does not work for me.
Seriously, I don’t see the college game deteriorating In any regards except rising physical contact, rising reliance on short timers and recent talent asymmetry apparently stemming from perhaps a SHOECO-AGENCY COMPLEX dynamic as yet inadequately understood.
The rest to me seems like “change.”
FWIW, I do not recall a young KU team developing and evolving as much as this one has in a single season.
Defense and offense seem to oscillate in prominence.
I think anything new is hard for folks.
I believe BAD BALL is new.
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@sfbahawk You’re right - I am not in the huddle, but I do have a pair of eyes, and I can see our defensive efficiency has gone down the last two years, since Joe left. I can see we have (had) the number 3 recruit in the country not break the lineup in a meaningful way … a big who can’t make it at Big Man U.Do I believe Cliff would’ve been playing less than half a game avg if Danny had been here? No, I don’t. With Cliff’s looming suspension for the season coming, it’s a moot point anyway. It is simply my opinion, plus I’m not real excited about one of our coaches getting busted for pot, so it’s not like I am going out on a limb here.
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"Instead of BadBall, call it what it is: BadAssBall. "
“Toughness is who you are and who you’ve become. Not something you have to “run a play” to try to get. Want consistency? My god, why would you look to the 3ball for that?”
Man… way to bring it!
I’m right on with that. I want to see our offensive efficiency improve… but not at the expense of toughness. I do believe Self did play a part in discarding our trey program, but he did it to get these guys focused on playing tough… primarily, playing tough defense and post offense.
I just think we need to adopt a mindset of toughness in all aspects of the game. The next steps should involve playing a more balanced offense with discipline and toughness from the perimeter, too. And how about focusing in our last second toughness. No more going soft in the last 5 seconds of a game on the line. That is the time to step up, not wilt.
But for the most part we are playing BadAssBall, and it is keeping us around in games we otherwise would have been blown out in. It just is not in Self’s DNA to have a team in a point race without the ability to get a defensive stop. I’m glad it isn’t who he is. Eventually most games’ outcomes are determined by the team who can get stops.
Let’s not forget the complete situation of this team. We’ve had some setbacks… most notably Cliff’s lack of development and now absence. Who would think we could almost match the blocks against Texas trees, or outrebound anyone, or outscore a team in the paint?
The recent play of our post guys has been a remarkable turn of affairs. What was a negative, compounded further by the loss of our star freshman, has turned into a positive. I’m not saying we have good efficiency in the post. But at least we are competing. Can we really expect to advance in March without the ability to compete in the post?
I hope our trey ball comes back… but not if our guys decide to revert to soft ball again. I am a big Brannen fan… but he is sitting on the fence with this team. Self’s biggest competition isn’t with the teams we play against… it is with players like Brannen, who some times play lax.
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@jaybate-1.0 Why recruit Hunter at all in that case? Seems like a wasted schollie.
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@drgnslayr personally, i think Snacks is a dead-wt liability. I’d rather put Chi-town’s own NC-winning KU alum Sherron Collins on the bench as an asst coach. Way more cred, to this ku alum anyways…
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@ralster he might get in the same kind of trouble.
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I second the Sherron move. He has actually EARNED a spot on our bench! And he is a guy that could be helpful in developing our guards.
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@drgnslayr I love Sherron. Quite possibly one of the best Jayhawks ever. But is there actually talk of him coaching? If we are discussing letting go of Coach Howard due to some character flaws I suggest we remember that Sherron does not exactly have a sterling reputation. Elevator issues, etc.
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We may be discussing it… but I doubt Self is.
The discussion is really about if our assistant coaches are helping much to develop players. Or are they just recruiters?
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@joeloveshawks nobody! Nobody loved playing for KU more than Sherron, but it may be a harder job for self to keep him out of trouble then it is BG! Jk
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@jaybate-1.0 If all this is true, Norman Dale is dead. (SHOECO-AGENCY-COMPLEX)
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The Selden thing is just puzzling to me. Never saw this coming. Svi doesn’t look crisp right now. And he has just been hot and cold all season.
His work in games this season has been streaky. No points or something, then he’ll hit a hot streak and score a bunch in a row. His finishing ability is perhaps the worst I’ve seen for a while. He can’t elevate to dunk and he has not touch on layups.
Right now, I think Svi would be a better player than Selden had Svi been playing this entire time. That’s mainly because Selden has been so inconsistent. But now isn’t the time to play Svi.
But Graham, that’s another story. Despite Graham’s shooting line, I think we’re better with him (generally) over Selden right now – @icthawkfan316 has been a big proponent of this move for some time. Nothing wrong with Selden off the bench.
I would have been starting Greene over Selden since December – back when Greene was responsible. Playing the way Self plays now, with this drive and attack strategy, I wouldn’t do that now. Greene’s role has been minimized by the strategy.
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@HighEliteMajor Agree with the Selden “puzzlement.” As I posted in another thread with regard to Wayne and the Devonte option:
"Health may be a part of it, but having watched him closely for the past two years, I think that maybe Selden is what he is - which is a solid, but limited ballplayer. I had really thought that based on his freshman year, he would be a consistent 15 ppg scorer, tough defender and someone you could post against smaller guards down low. Alas, it hasn’t played out that way.
The reason I’m a bit skeptical that it is all injury related is that he’s shown a fair amount of hop on several occasions trying (and succeeding) in blocking breakaway layups. And, lack of hops or bad ankle doesn’t have that much to do with his ball-handling, which, putting it mildly, is not good. He is one-handed and cannot deal with pressure and he is simply clueless driving into traffic.
I don’t mean to be down on the guy - he seems like a really solid citizen and I’m glad he is a Jayhawk. But, right now, he isn’t our best option on the wing.
With regard to Devonte, he’s struggled a bit (including yesterday), but I give him a pass because he is still a freshman and hasn’t played the full season. In his last 3 games where he’s gotten more than 20 minutes, he’s scored 20, 10 and 8. More importantly, he contributes in other ways - unlike Selden, he can drive fairly effectively. And, the offense opens a bit more when he and Frank are in at the same time - allows more chances for him, Frank or Kelly to attack the rim. Whether it’s injury or not (and I’m not convinced that it Is), I think Devonte gives us a lot more than Selden right now."
Unless Selden is 100% healthy, I think we would be much better off with Graham getting the starter level minutes at the 2 - and giving Selden, Svi and Greene the sub minutes at the 2 or 3.
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@HighEliteMajor Wayne’s inability to finish at the rim is a huge problem. The same could be said of his rebounding statistics. Given this and the fact that most on this board are down on him, why was he selected as an all Big XII honorable mention? The team is selected by the conference coaches. Although many if not most of the coaches are looked on here as something a dog leaves on a sidewalk, could they possibly see something that we don’t?
