Post-game Roundup: KU vs Florida
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@MoonwalkMafia Welcome aboard. Sorry you felt the need to resist. We don’t bite…too hard.
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@globaljaybird “Will have to re watch & see how often Perry was boxed out, but when the zone collapses there has to be seams for cutters.”
I told my wife as soon as the game was over,“The best thing about this game is I don’t have to watch it again. Unfortunately for Bill he has to watch it again.” You must have a penchant for punishment also.
Luckily for us this wasn’t a season ending loss, so Bill will watch the tape. The team will learn and grow from this loss and hopefully so will Bill.
Sometimes I wonder if Kansas doesn’t play much if any zone until Tournament time so it’s not on tape. Or is it just an act of desperation? It usually works to some degree so why not use it more, too many open looks from the corner? A good man defense gives no uncontested shots. (one answer looking for more)
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I’ve been following the board for about 6 years now, and I’ve read a lot of comments from posters that they would trade 4-5 season losses to get the talent on the floor so they can reach their ceilings by March. Welp, that is what is going on here folks
On another thought…
Can Tarik really be the leader this team needs with his performance level? Are the younger guys just gonna blow him off due to his steady regression? I guess the same goes for Naa…I’m really concerned there is no leader to help develop the identity. Mason is the best fit right now, I guess. I’d like to see Perry take charge, but he’s too quiet, and it just doesn’t seem to be in Wiggy’s demeanor.
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The first half was obviously a disaster. We just haven’t figured out how to punish teams for pressuring us yet. Breaking pressure should lead to easy buckets whether it is full court pressure or teams playing in the passing lanes. At this point the they are young excuse is a bit redundant but these guys just don’t have the plays in their arsenal to make scoring plays.
Someone on here yesterday posted the last big Florida game. I watched part of it and noticed they played quite a bit of zone that game too. The difference was we had plays clearly drawn up to beat it. Back cuts, lobs, flare screens, cross cuts in the post, the list goes on. And that wasn’t even the 2008 team with the 55 plays or however many in the playbook.
Jaybate used to write about Self sending teams out flat or amped. Flat being just kind of sent out there to play with no real edge from the coaching staff (i.e. plays for lobs, special defensive schemes, etc.) So the question is is Self saving this stuff for when they need it (conference), is he unable to communicate this edge to his team yet (inexperience), or was the passing just so bad that we never even had a chance to run “a play” (just bad)?
Either way, Self is a good coach who has proven in the past he can give his players an edge even when they are overmatched physically or less talented. So at some point you would have to think this physically gifted and clearly talented team will benefit from some scouting/coaching that will help make things easy for them. When will we see it? Is it weird that I actually hope it is later rather than sooner?
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I guess they had no preparation for a road game.
I was concerned that the one day of practice between Colorado and Florida would cause problems. But I knew they would play zone (UF). In fact, we knew that many teams would show more zone this year due to the new enforcement of the rules.
A big question that I have, and I have no idea how to run a basketball practice, let a lone a D1 practice. But, if Self foresaw the use of zone more (as he did state in previous interviews prior to season tip) why wasn’t this worked on in practice? I mean, it’s evident they have not practiced beating any press, trapping or zone right? Maybe Self thought they would shoot better than they have. Maybe they will shoot better upon their return to AFH.
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@Blown - I don’t get it either. The rule mods totally rescue ball handlers being pressured. All any of these guys had to do was drop their head and shoulder and drive right through the edge of the defenders. Just don’t drive to the edge, where you can be trapped. This is beyond basic… it’s elementary.
The guys are letting the ball stick anyways… and that split second of hesitation allows defenders to pinch in, then it becomes even harder. And if they aren’t passing the ball rapidly they should be dribbling around… making the zone shift to create bigger seams to attack.
I guess they have been instructed to not drive the ball. (?) Even Mason hesitates to drive now when he’s pinched… something he would have naturally done at the beginning of the season.
I believe there are some issues in communication. I don’t think Self has ever had this green of a team before… so his teaching methods aren’t hitting home because he basically has no elder players to show by example. That’s why I blast Tharpe and Ellis for not taking a leadership role. From the part I watched last night, I couldn’t tell that either of these guys were not freshmen, too. Really sad to see. Seems like they wasted their previous Jayhawk experience because they seem to be back to zero.
I can’t blame Black for much of anything. Essentially, he’s a freshman in the Self system, and he appears to be playing at a similar level of what he was at Memphis. I do think he has made improvements over Memphis. Obviously, I’m with the crowd wanting as much PT for Embiid as possible!
Someone on this team is going to have to step up and take charge. Our first road games were the perfect opportunity for Tharpe to show his leadership skills… and he had an entire team in need of a leader… and he didn’t step up. That’s not the sign I was looking for!
My eyes are pointing to Mason. I know he’s green… but he shows signs of determination and he doesn’t quit.
I believe perhaps our biggest move going forward is choosing a PG. Who is going to lead this team?
I’ve always been a Tharpe fan… but he isn’t showing me that he has what it takes to lead this team. He needs his teammates to believe in him, 100%. How is he going to earn that status now? It’s a tough thing to win over in the middle of the season. Mason can lead by example. Granted… he needs to learn a bit more, but the time is now!
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Has Jaybate been posting on the CJ online forum?
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I said in the last post, that I wasn’t going to panic even if they lost at Florida. That was before I watched them play that first half. I am hitting the panic button now.
If they played like the second half and still lost even with a bigger margin, I wouldn’t be concerned. But I really expected them to look better at this stage than they showed, and if they haven’t made that type of progress, then I am worried what the final product is going to look like. It will be better, but my expectation was FF and NC. Not anymore.
Random Thoughts:
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Hated the rainbow passes throughout the game. Didn’t accomplish anything except allowing Florida defense to as it pleased.
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Perry Ellis needs to have 10 field goal attempts minimum every game. Period.
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Love Selden. In fact, during his recruitment, he is the first guy ever that I fell in love with after watching his high school highlights (usually never put much stock in those). Then I kept hearing all summer that he was the best freshman. I’m disappointed. I think Greene starting would bring more to the table at this point.
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Remember when we used to run a set play for Tyrel Reed at the end of half for a three pointer? Is that not in the play book anymore? I didn’t see one set play for our so-called sharp-shooters! If you have guys that can shoot and you need to come from behind against zone, why wouldn’t you?
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Defense finally showed some teeth in the second half, but offense was just as pathetic and rhythm-less throughout, barring Wiggins-in-the-zone cameo. I’ve never been a fan of Self-offense, but I loved his defense-creating-offense. With new rules and freshmen, perhaps that’s not going to happen.
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The only calming thought: We had four seniors and a lottery pick play worse against TC-flippin’-U much later in the season. So may be there is hope for this bunch…
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@Blown It looks like he was on the live blog yesterday – Link to live blog text
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Far Side-point 6 well taken.
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@approxinfinity thanks. I missed the game and live blog. The game ended as the Christmas Program concluded–at least the last song was “Three Little Birds” so I felt good about it all
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Wiggins looked Lebronesque in the 2nd half. A positive.
Mason looked like he didn’t appreciate the starting job.
Tharpe, while not sparkling, did have 5 assists and 3 TO’s, superb numbers for KU last night. The competition is heating up for that PG position.
You’ve all said it about Tarik and you’re all right. He should have enjoyed his swansong in Memphis
We actually led 10-3.
Jeff made blocking shots fun to watch, Joel’s are downright entertaining.
You all were clamoring for Greene earlier in the season (I don’t take the time to get to know these guys preseason) and you were correct.
Selden seems to make a nice play or two at the beginning of the game and then disappears.
Perry will come on strong just like he did last year.
We’re going to see a lot of zone this year.
The no call on Wiggins drive to the hoop when we’re down by 4 (I think) was the worst call of the season bar none. They get that right, it’s down to the wire.
It’ll be nice to see the team in AFH for a change.
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@Blown-The best way to prepare for attacking a zone is to teach your squad how to use it defensively. Getting the shape of the zone to change is the key, either by crisp ball reversal & passes, or by driving creases & creating dish opps for the penetrators. And it is not as easy as it sounds either as the frontcourt must keep quickly moving to find the open seam & be ready for the initial pass, post up, secondary pass, or the finish. Embid is a finisher with a capitol F & he is the ultimate zone buster to me. Wigs has the same mentality going at the rack also. Plus I think Greene can be as HEM referenced him days ago, an assassin, either with the finish or the stroke on a kickout which you absolutely must possess to defeat a zone. So far I’ve not seen the proverbial extra pass for the open shooter even on a limited basis. There is a lot to work on for sure, but agree we should see an entirely diff team after the break. While Perry has great drop step & post up fall away, shooters touch moves, I am not seeing the aggressiveness I anticipated from his previous late season surge on finishing with flushes. This has to change also & can be groomed with more reps in the gym. And I agree that someone has to step up & say this krap has to stop. Accountability & leadership are vital to a young team & someone like Na or Perry has got to step up to the plate.
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Wisox-That was by farthe worst call of the game & was actually a 6-7 pt momentum swing against us.
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I was really disappointed in Tharpe as well. There was a moment near the end of the game when we were still in it (down 6 or
and Florida made a free throw. Wiggins takes the ball out and there were no jayhawks on that side of half court. We got lucky and didn’t turn it over (barely) because Traylor and Greene came back for it eventually. My first thought was maybe Self had done a weird offense defense switch so we had no point guard on the floor. But after rewinding and fast fowarding and really really really searching I found Tharpe standing in the absolute far corner as far away from the action as possible. Whether he floated there after the ball got in and Wiggins controlled it, I don’t know. But where was he when Wiggins is literally jumping up and down on the sideline yelling for somebody to help. Wiggins had no idea how much help he really needs! All these guys better step up, but I was hoping Tharpe already would have.
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Not sure why there is a dude with sunglasses in that last post! It was supposed to say 6-8 end parentheses. Also it was a reply to drgnslayr’s comments about Tharpe.
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that key combination maps to an emoticon… here’s the list of emoticons on this board.
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I have always been more of a reader than a contributor to forums like this. Like the rest of you, I’m extremely passionate about KU Basketball and I spend a completely unnecessary amount of time and energy pouring through articles, blogs and anything else I can find to satiate my KU hoops appetite. It’s always been entertaining to me to digest the knee-jerk reactions, analyses, theories and prognostications shared between you fine folks.
Going into last night’s game, I was fairly confident we would bounce back and build off of the tough loss on Saturday. I thought that the ship would begin to point North a bit and some strides would be taken towards becoming the cohesive, formidable team I’m still very confident we will see by the end of the year. Please note that all of these positive things can happen without coming out of a hostile, raucous road environment against a veteran, tough, tourney-tested team with a win. In fact, I thought we would lose this game (I know, what a terrible fan I am…)
Much has been said about the landmines sprinkled out over this schedule. When I first saw it, I predicted that we would be looking at 4 losses by the time we trek it down to Norman to start the conference season. Just like everyone else, I was guilty of amping up my expectations after the Duke win. Those expectations weren’t fair and they clearly weren’t accurate given that KU is still an extremely young team (which got even younger last night with 4 Freshman starters) with minimal big-time College Basketball floor experience playing one of the toughest non-con schedules in the country. Thankfully, these road warriors are now looking at a few home games.
There are obviously, several things that need work (including ballhandling, rebounding, etc.) and the lineup is still sorting itself out but instead of dwelling on these things, I think there are some positive things to note:
- Granted, the first half was abysmal. They were clearly rattled and confused by the switching zones that Florida presented. They threw the ball around the gym, dribbled off their feet, ran into each other on rebounds and seemed to miss every shot that they were actually able to throw up. But all of these things didn’t seem to be due to lack of effort – in fact, most of them seemed due to “overtrying”. Not that these mistakes are completely excusable since the boys were “trying hard”, but it’s easy (especially for a young team) to fold up in that kind of environment against a team that clearly has the mojo.
- When we weren’t chucking the ball all around the gym and we were able to get some shots off, they were actually falling. There was obviously a litany of easy layups that didn’t drop (I’m looking at you, Tarik Black), but for a team that was struggling from deep, it was great to see some shots going in. 42% from behind the arc is encouraging. That’s the equivalent of 60% from the 2-point floor. I’ll take it.
- When Dickie V wasn’t apologizing on behalf of Wiggins for the “inexperienced backcourt” that couldn’t seem to get him the ball, he made several comments about how it seemed like the score should be worse. I found myself thinking the same thing. Somehow there is some resiliency to this team that showed sparks of it in the first half and a lot of it in the second. They got their asses handed to them on the offensive glass in the first half with Florida getting two, sometimes three shots every trip down the floor. They were able to man up a bit in the second and they did a great job of taking 9th-year senior Patrick Young out of the game a bit.
- Wilbekin has an extremely punchable face. It was extremely frustrating every time he squashed a run or hit a big shot (and it seemed to happen with precision frequency). Until… Wiggins took up the assignment. I love it when Wiggins gets a chance to take on the opposing teams best scorer. He seems to be capable of guarding multiple positions (including post players as evidenced by his shutting down of Julius Randle in the summer circuit last year). Hopefully Coach Self can trust him to stay out of foul trouble enough to give us our defensive stopper.
- I’ve read a lot of comments about “shaken confidence” and perhaps this team has been humbled a bit (which isn’t a bad thing). However, I think the way they battled back on the road against a top 20 team (and now that they’re full-strength, Florida may wind up being a Top 10 opponent) and were just a couple bounces and a few preventable turnovers short of a win is an incredibly optimistic sign. We cut our turnovers in half from the first half to the second and were a bad no-call and an inexcusable turnover away from making it a 4-point game with roughly 2 minutes left. After watching the first half and knowing where it could’ve potentially gone, I think that is a remarkable achievement.
We’re heading back to AFH (after a quick stop in KC). Friendly faces and quality opponents await, but I still believe it’s only up from here. I think it’s just important to realize we’re much closer to the ’06 team than the ’08 team. Call me naïve but I’m buckled up and ready to enjoy the ride…
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@Apologist-Great summation,don’t be a stranger.
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Awesome reads in here today! Pretty calm posting.
I’m not in a panic yet… but feel it is my duty to hammer down on the team. I’ll panic when we start dropping conference games!
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@drgnslayr - Careful! There will be plenty of those too! I’m thinking 4 or less should do it. Hopefully we are learning how to win on the road (even if we haven’t done it yet!). But I imagine these Hawks will surprise us with a home loss in conference at some point. They almost always do, and this team won’t be any different.
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A few assorted thoughts.
Once again, freshmen playing like freshmen, why are so many people surprised? Last years Kentucky freshmen class did not even make it to the dance and lost a first round game to Bobby MO in the NIT.
Someone said Florida will be in the chase in March? In March we will beat them by double digits; we actually beat them by 9 in the second half.
Tarik’s line 0 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 fouls in 6 minutes. Jamari’s line 5 points, 9 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 fouls in 17 minutes. The question is… why is Tarik getting 6 minutes?
The more influential plays in the last couple of minutes:
Tarik misses bunny form 1 foot out.
No foul call on Wigging drive to the basket down 4 points. We don’t get any points and Florida get the ball. Worst call of the season so far. Even Dick Vitale briefly stopped watching reruns of the Duke game to indicate what a bad call it was.
Green misses the ball and turns it over with little time left.
Any of those 3 plays above, particularly the foul on Wiggins, goes differently and the odds of stealing the game would have gone up considerably.
When Wigging is in beast mode he is unstoppable and we just got a taste of what he can do…as Jack Wilson tells Philo Beddoe (in Any which way you can)…pleasure watching you work…
The only other players with some semblance of passion are Green and Traylor; the rest seem too complacent. Maybe the shorter boot camp has something to do with it.
As much as the first half reminded me of the TCU game (ouch!!!), I did see a lot of things I liked in the second half; hopefully the experience will serve them well in the future.
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IYO, what residual impact, if any, have the departures of Danny Manning, Joe Dooley, Doc Sadler, and Barry Hinson had on Coach Self and the players? I am not familiar with their replacements but am wondering who is developing bigs, doing scouting reports and serving as the calming influence/confidante for Coach Self.
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Wondered about that boot camp idea myself. Surely BS hasn’t gone soft & coddled these guys a bit? We need bodies & Black may still get 6 min per game, but Landon may have a greater potential at this point if he’s progressing at all. There seemed to be much more exhibited effort to go after the 50/50 balls though in many instances we were fighting our own teammates only to loose possession completely. You’d think the same color uniform would be a good giveaway.
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Interesting… I already started writing for a new thread: “Has Bill Self gone soft?”
No sexual pun intended!
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@drgnslayr woh woh woh! I may be out on a limb here, but I typically by default assume you’re not talking about Bill Self sexually! :=D
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Tarik Black is a great guy, but next to worthless on the floor. As a senior, we should be able to count on him to provide leadership, but that’s difficult to do when you’re missing bunnies and riding pine with foul trouble. It’s clear the new rules have been giving him fits.
Tharpe really grinds my gears. The one play that drove me nuts yesterday was on defense: Wilbekin has the ball just behind the three point line, and Tharpe is “guarding” him, but has his head on a swivel looking around for potential screens (I would guess)–Wilbekin just drains it, and Naadir didn’t do much to contest it. Add to that the host of questionable decisions on offense, and the bad -and-one, and it’s not a good trajectory.
I’m not sure what’s happened to Perry the last few games. I certainly expected a little more from him given his start to the season. I’d add Selden to that list as well.
The bright side is that we’ve identified a weakness early in the season & will likely crack the code of attacking a Zone defense earlier than we would have otherwise.
The other great outcome (besides the comeback effort) is that Wiggins asserted himself, particularly during the last few minutes. I don’t think anyone can question that he wants the ball in crunch time–and that he seems to have that Chalmers-esque clutch factor in his favor.
Still a lot of hoops to be played, and I’m sure the team will enjoy playing closer to home.
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Hey Apologist, great calm-headed comment. I agree with everything you wrote (loved the “9th year senior Patrick Young” jab especially!). I was encouraged by the second half effort. We have the record I expected at this point, and it’s clear we have the athletes/tools to improve, so–yep, let’s just enjoy this ride…
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@CRH107 I too have wondered about the coaching staff factor. Glad you brought it up as it is easily overlooked and definitely could alter the trajectory of this team from previous years’. The assistants have an impact on the culture, the development and game preparations among other things. There’s some ‘youth’ in those positions, but it doesn’t get talked about much.
It’s possible the “ill prepared” feel to the Florida game was connected to this factor more than some others that have been discussed.
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Perry Ellis is one of KU’s top two scorers, you could even make a case he is the best. KU will not win many games when he tales only 3 shots; he made 2, by the way.
Perry plays a position in which ne needs to receive precise passes inside so he can go to work using the many moves he has already shown he has. In the last few games, whether it is by the increased playing time by Mason or the inability of the perimeter players to beat the zone, his touches have become less and the inside scoring threat has greatly diminished. Other than Embiid, Perry is our best inside scoring option and the coaching staff need to figure out way to attack the zone where he gets a lot more touches than he has lately.
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@Blown (response to LJW post, I can’t bring myself to post there still) Some of the rainbow passes were thrown by Wiggins, so height is not the only problem. The main problem with this team is experience. There’s only one way to get it; unfortunately for these guys it’s gonna be on national tv.
Glad I didn’t have to mature on television.
