Is Josh Pastner Just a Helluva Coach With a Player with Too many Distractions?
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@jaybate-1.0 Nice points jb. HCBS should use that as a selling point when recruiting. What the staff did for Tarik’s career. And as you said, oh if we had only had Tarik for 4 years. But then again, under HCBS’s guidance would he have been a 4 year player at KU? Tarik will always be at the top of my favorite Jayhawks list.
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@jaybate-1.0 we are so blessed Pastner sucks!
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You know, a testament to Tarik’s character, he never bad mouthes Memphis.
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@jaybate-1.0 dude. you have a good point there. I mean even Scott Drew can get some of his guys NBA ready…I think.
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@jaybate-1.0 Maybe it’s just me, but it seemed to me Tarik also became a mentor/leader/older brother to the team as the season progressed. You could see it on the court the way he would talk to the team.
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@brooksmd I miss him
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@brooksmd he was such a great mentor for my man, Mari!!
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Yes, I forgot to mention that striking quality about him, too.
BUT I NOW BELIEVE HE JUST FACED TOO MANY DISTRACTIONS IN MEMPHIS.
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Sometimes players have to move away from home; too much pressure and too many distractions when playing close to home.
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That makes some sense. That could be a piece of it.
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I love me some Tarik Black (started a tread about his star performance for the Lakers late last night), but I think a lot of this is off the mark. Which isn’t to say that Pastner is a good coach, and obviously I think most would agree even if we respect his job performance he is nowhere close to being in the realm of Self, but here’s some flaws:
Saying that Black guessed wrong and went to Memphis, as opposed to playing for Self or Coach K for 4 years… Neither program offered him a scholarship out of high school, and in my quick search it didn’t look like either recruited him either. So, based on the fact that he is now a viable NBA player, did Black guess wrong? Or did Self & Coach K guess wrong by not recruiting him out of high school? All of the above? None of the above?
ESPN & rivals recruiting sites show he had offers from Florida, Alabama, Marquette, and maybe Tennessee (rivals lists the Volunteers as having offered him, ESPN doesn’t). I don’t know the recruiting situations at the time at the other schools that did offer him. At a glance we could make the assumption that Florida and Marquette would have been better choices, based on their successes under Donovan and Buzz Williams. But we also don’t know how firm those offers were. Perhaps they were conditional offers that could have been withdrawn if better players committed. KU offers a great many players every year, far more than they would ever have scholarships for (even accounting for showing lesser talent the door). But as players start to commit offers are withdrawn. So maybe Memphis was the best option at the time.
Something else I don’t know and would require a great deal of research is the roster compositions at the time Black was deciding where to go. Maybe he would have been buried on the bench at KU, Dook, Florida, or Marquette. As a freshman, Black played 22.6 mpg, starting 24 games. His minutes went up in his sophomore season, and he started 31 games. So playing time was available to him out of the blocks under Pastner. Maybe the same couldn’t be said at those other schools. And maybe it was court time at the D1 level that made Black good enough to finally attract Self & coach K. Perhaps we should give him credit for that.
What I don’t recall is why at the end of 3 years Pastner was “playing ordinary players instead of Black.” Black’s junior season saw his mpg drop to 20.8. If anybody remembers there being a mention of this when we were recruiting Black following his junior season or when we landed him feel free to chime in. Maybe Black had some issues, maybe Pastner felt he had recruited better talent to replace him. Maybe Pastner reduced his minutes to develop younger talent. Maybe Black indicated that he would graduate early and would look to transfer after his junior season, prompting Pastner to cut his minutes. Maybe his junior season was when Black got out of control with his fouling, thus reducing his minutes. I don’t know.
I think it is important to not ignore the Self/KU factor in Black’s NBA endeavors. Don’t think that the increased visibility of playing at a school like KU didn’t help him land some workouts and looks. I mean, did Self really transform him that much? Was Pastner really that unable to “figure out how to help Tarik Black play successfully in D1”? His per game stats at KU were career college lows: 13.5 mpg, 5.5 ppg, 3.9 rpg (although I did check and the per minute stats show equal or greater production than at Memphis). Playing at KU can open some doors that playing at Memphis can’t. And that can’t be a knock on Pastner this early in his college coaching career. Aside from maybe his friendship with RC Buford, Self didn’t have that kind of pull while at Tulsa (where Self would have been at Pastner’s age and at the equivalent point their head coaching careers).
And lastly, I wonder if Black would have had the chance to showcase his talents as much as he did had Embiid not gotten hurt. How much of NBA teams’ willingness to give Black a look were based on his late season and NCAA tourney performances? My guess is a lot. He might not have had those same opportunities to showcase his talents more had JoJo been healthy.
While I certainly didn’t set out to start the Josh Pastner fan club and so fervently defend the guy, I just can’t belittle him so much to think he failed, or “botched it”, or that he “sucks” or is in the running for stupidest coach in NCAA history. Maybe we should look at it like this: Black wasn’t on Self’s radar out of high school. It wasn’t until Pastner had him for 3 years that Self (and Coach K) deemed him good enough to contribute at a blue blood program. So maybe we should be thanking Pastner for being just a rung in the ladder of Tarik’s basketball ascension…
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@jaybate-1.0 jb, I have nothing to add, other than to give a thumbs up to JayHawkFan and ictfan…who both posted some wise stuff. I’d say that Tarik’s choosing to stay at home in Memphis might eventually have led to distractions from his optimal development; but that is just a wild assumption. Along the way he appeared to determine that Pastner’s program was not going to get him where he hoped to go; so he was wise enough to work the 3-year grad rule, then choose between Coach K or Self for his last shot at prime development. We owe Tarik a bundle…esp. does Embiid. If Black bombs and disappears from the League, Joel should probably buy him a topoftheline Mercedes as a thankful tribute to the 2013-14 help. As for all of us, I cannot recall any other KU one-and-doner who deserves more accolades than Tarik Black.
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@REHawk said:
@jaybate-1.0 jb, I have nothing to add, other than to give a thumbs up to JayHawkFan and ictfan…who both posted some wise stuff. I’d say that Tarik’s choosing to stay at home in Memphis might eventually have led to distractions from his optimal development; but that is just a wild assumption. Along the way he appeared to determine that Pastner’s program was not going to get him where he hoped to go; so he was wise enough to work the 3-year grad rule, then choose between Coach K or Self for his last shot at prime development. We owe Tarik a bundle…esp. does Embiid. If Black bombs and disappears from the League, Joel should probably buy him a topoftheline Mercedes as a thankful tribute to the 2013-14 help. As for all of us, I cannot recall any other KU one-and-doner who deserves more accolades than Tarik Black.
If Black doesn’t stick in the NBA then he needs to call up Aaron Rodgers and take him up on his offer to be the next great basketball player turned NFL tight end.
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At that age, distractions can mean a lot of things–any thing from apron strings, to girl friends, to gang connections, to agent/agent runner problems, to crossing the wrong way summer gamers and juco coaches, to in a place like Memphis, well, there is no bottom to down.
I will let it go, because you are.
Maybe Josh is a top notch coach and a helluva guy.
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Excellent take on Pastner, Memphis and Black. As you said, Pastner is young and considered one of the up and coming coaches that will stay around for a while and find success.
A couple of things that might shed some light. Tarik is from Memphis and there was always the assumption, real or imagined, that he would go to Memphis, so this may have limited recruiting by other coaches.
In his Junior year there were discipline/personality issues between Black and Pastner and the entire story has never really been revealed . At one time he walked out of practice and was suspended for a couple of games; he seemed to indicate he was tired of the lack of effort by other players but others indicated he had an attitude problem…most likely a combination of both. In any case, having the option to leave after that year and take a chance somewhere else or stay in an uncomfortable situation at Memphis, he chose the first. Let’s remember that at that time (Summer 2013), there were several programs, like KU and Duke, with available scholarship wanting to a add complimentary/stop gag player and not many players to pick from. It was confluence of events that landed Tarik at KU. It turned out well for both Tarik and KU.
Again nice and objective write up by @icthawkfan316.
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I recall a long time ago, when Josh attracted a lot of attention for being a young D1 coach. I supported his efforts to come in after Calipari left Memphis in a state of chaos.
I like to see quality basketball everywhere. I think young athletes deserve quality coaching because they are committing their young pathways to basketball.
I’m not as excited about Josh today. He seems more of a “middle of the road” type coach.
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@jaybate-1.0 Sooo, deleting your story makes us all look stupid now???
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@drgnslayr I would agree. I thought he could continue the momentum that preceded him, but he clearly is not up to that task. He has a program with some history and that doesn’t seem to be an advantage to him.
@icthawkfan316 good take on the Pastner thing … perhaps Pastner wanted his big men to dish out a few assists? I remember when Black signed, I discussed the crazy non-assist numbers from Black. I actually just noticed last week how many assists Black had all last season. Any guesses? Nine.
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@HighEliteMajor if I remember right, and I do, more people on here bitched about Tarik and had no patience w/him! He had to deal w/the rule interpretations as much as anyone!
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Im sure nobody wants to hear it. But from my seat in the edward jones dome last march. There were two guys that looked like they cared about beating stanford. Black and Frankamp. Who are now both gone.
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@cragarhawk not trying to be an a&&, but if a Jayhawk plays poorly, does that mean he doesn’t care? If so, CF pretty much blew the whole year off until then. I don’t think that way.
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@JayHawkFanToo I do remember when it came out that HCBS was pursuing Tarik there were some posters who questioned bringing his attitude/discipline problems to Lawrence. Problems that to my knowledge never surfaced even in his early foul problem games. And I would like to see the difference in his stats from those early games and the later games when he wasn’t fouling out.
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I must admit that I was one of those fans who was not sure how it would work…I am glad it worked out the way it did.
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No i dont necessarily mean that. But yes, it is one of the possible reasons for playing poorly. Of course there are many other reasons. Playing thru an illness, or injury, or just plain having a bad night…etc. You arent being an @$$ and im not trying to be either. Perhaps its my wording in this case… Maybe it was more of a lack of what i would call a “sense of urgency” or “sense of purpose” about winning the game/advancing. I felt those 2 had it when others didnt that particular night. On the season… Different story. As you said Conner didnt show that every night. Maybe nobody does everynight. I suppose thats very possible. Maybe its really just about getting enough of the guys to have it on a night when things arent going great. Or, perhaps could be that im completely full of it… I mean they werent front row seats or anything like that.
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@cragarhawk and @Crimsonorblue22
I think most every D1 player plays hard every night, or at least tries to. I think the difference comes in the ability to be productive every night. There just aren’t many guys that can produce at a high level every single night, particularly at the collegiate level. Many of the most talented guys struggle with consistency, while many of the more consistent players aren’t as talented and can be shut down.
Stanford was the perfect matchup for both Tarik and Conner in many ways. Since Stanford did not have a PG on their roster, Conner wasn’t a defensive liability against them. That freed him up to do what he does best - shoot the basketball without worrying about a quicker player on the other end.
Stanford had a lot of skilled bigs, but not really any burly bangers to match with Tarik. Since the NCAA tournament is much more of a let them play atmosphere than the regular season, that’s right up Tarik’s alley, especially when none of the opponents can match him physically.
I think the guys played hard, but didn’t necessarily play smartly against Stanford. To some extent, that goes for the coaching staff as well for not exposing the fact that Stanford didn’t have a point guard by pressing them until they crumbled.
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Sorry about that, but this situation seemed unusual.
If Tarik Black faced “distractions” that I did not know about when I wrote the post, then I wanted to alter anything that I wrote that might stir up those distractions, however large, or small they may have been. I did not want to contribute to stirring them up again.
So: I deleted my post and rewrote it as it now is.
I thought it was better to do that and let some other posts seem disconnected and out of context, rather than risk stirring up “distractions.” I figured others could delete, or alter theirs if they wished.
