Insufferable Shocker Fans
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And I belatedly apologize for my immaturity.
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“Play them in Lawrence and in KC.”
We should play them in the Arena at Wichita, too. It holds just over 15000, just a tad below AFH, but it isn’t their Shocker Koch Arena, so students have to pay full price, equaling or exceeding the gate in AFH.
What we give us is all the revenue from the potential rivalry… everything from t-shirt sales to TV revenue. This game would quickly have national implications for viewership (similar to UK/UL).
It’s not only money… kids go to the Kentucky schools because of the exposure… something we are blind to out here.
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@drgnslayr Agree 100% on us needing a rival. But going down that road only gets me infuriated at the Big 12 for not adding Louisville back in 2011, and I’m already pretty ticked at the conference over the whole college football playoff narrative. Bob Bowlsby and his “It’s clear that we were penalized for not having a postseason championship game. It would have been nice to have been told that ahead of time.” Moron. How did he not know? Everyone else knew in advance that was going to come back and bite us. Typical Big 12. Reactive rather than proactive. Anyway, I digress…
WSU & Misery would be band-aids on the rivalry front. I think you overestimate how big the games would be when you say it would be similar to UK/UL. Misery has a century plus of showing us they can’t hold up their end of the bargain. And a handful of good seasons don’t prove WSU belongs in the conversation either. Maybe we can keep things going with Florida and/or Michigan St. That’s my hope until the next realignment shake-up, or the NCAA dissolves, or whatever the next thing is that changes the landscape.
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I agree. UK and Kentucky are both top tier programs with a long traditions, National Championships, consistent top 10 ranking and more than a regional following. UK is is currently considered the top basketball program and Louisville the most valuable program (Forbes) .
Anyone who thinks a KU-WSU or KU-MU would get national attention is clearly way, way overestimating. Neither MU nor WSU have a national following in basketball; MU is a perennial underachiever and WSU (so far) a flash in the pan mid-major. A KU-WSU game would be watched by KU and WSU fans and a few KSU fans hoping to see KU lose. A KU-MU game would have an even smaller audience since most MU fans are now football fans.
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I would certainly hope that we all respect each other’s opinions regarding the should we or shouldn’t we theme that has developed here with regards to WSU v KU or PSU or Ft Hays, or ESU or whatever. At one time in recent years Jill Docking brought before the KS Board of Regent the matter of making it a legislative (Board of Regents) requirement that KU play WSU & regarding such, a couple of key facts must be brought to light.
- She is a rep of the Wichita district so anything she may or can do to get more political support from her geographical region is clearly to her advantage.
2 It is a requirement that KU & KSU schedule in-state financially supported & in need schools for revenue generating requirements on a yearly basis. The actual dollar numbers I cannot find, but the universities are at their own discretion as to who & how they distribute their Regent required supplemental support. Some years we play ESU & some years PSU & some we play Ft Hays.
Roy Williams did not do this for any other reason than it was & still is a allegislative requirement by the Kansas Board of Regents & is a lawful obligation to the other state supported colleges in Kansas.
And if anyone on this site thinks that we could make more money for KU by playing WSU & Zenger is somehow holding back this process- I have real estate available in Florida !! Branding is exactly what it is & SZ would stab anyone possible to make an extra nickle, wooden or not. They make more money at AFH than neutral or Sprint sites so figure it out. ESPN, Fox, TWC & SZ are drivin the bus & as long as KU cannot make considerably more $$$ for ANY opponent on the road & the same at home, why do it. There’s nothing to gain & even a little bit lost is too much. Would I like it-hell yeah? Do they care about me -hell no!! Outside of Kansas no one would shiv a git about this game? Absolutely not. And it’s damn sure not what you’d call a recruiting hotbed, so why on Earth do it? Fans don’t count to the U-get over it. It’s all about the $$$ for the U & THAT IS the bottom line. Won’t happen as long as the moneys not right but if it ever is, then it will.
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This is all just chatter from not wanting to play WSU.
Every year we play turkey games, like in the Bahamas, that actually COST Kansas money. Those are not even revenue games. Gate has nothing to do with this. And if it did, we would already be involved in this series, because the math has been done, and a home/away/Sprint deal makes more money than playing 3 games in AFH. Already proven.
It is irrelevant that Louisville had a good past in basketball. This is always a shock to Jayhawk fans. Basketball isn’t so much about the past, it is about the future. We live too much in the past. We think the world is going to bow down to us because we have Naismith. Naismith doesn’t win trophies or sign television contracts.
WSU doesn’t have a huge basketball rep from their past. So what. They are NOW, and college basketball is about NOW.
Actually, the deal should only happen if we can get a heavy guarantee that their coach will be around for the next few years. He has proven he knows how to build a winner there and he will help solidify the future of this rivalry. And a few more solid years of ball in Wichita will get their status on solid ground. Louisville… Louisville… oh yeah… they come from the MVC.
I got this right. And it is about thinking small and hating WSU, and in the process, hurting Kansas.
We can’t generate a rivalry with another B12 school. Not to this level, and not benefiting the entire State of Kansas.
We will never compete against Kentucky… Never. They are a million times more progressive and on the ball, and what you are seeing now is just the beginning. By the time people here figure it out it will be way too late (if it isn’t already). Kentucky has it all, and we put our beans on owning a piece of paper with the rules on it. And, btw, our conference sucks. This ship is sinking.
I’m not a gambling man, but if I was I know where I’d put my money on this one. And it ain’t in Lawrence.
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@drgnslayr so, if I understand this right- correct me if I’m wrong, but you aspire to be like Kentucky?
- We gotta get drake!
- More OAD’s, and more OAD’s that thought they were OAD’s, but weren’t cause they weren’t going to be drafted high enough.
- And… If we schedule WSU, we will be progressive enough to be like Kentucky and it will be a rivalry? Selling tshirts for this rivalry will result in more revenue and increase the rivalry potential?
- But… We need to ask greaseball Marshall if he will stay?
- Big 12 sucks, does that mean you like mvc?
- Is that where you would put your money? Or would you give it, or sorry, put it on Kentucky?
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Yes, we play in the Bahamas and Hawaii and Canada and Switzerland and France, why? Because it helps recruiting big time. If you give recruits an option of playing in the Bahamas or Wichita. which one do you think they will pick? All big time programs do it and not doing it would place KU at a disadvantage. Do we need luxurious new digs for the basketball program? No, but we do it because we have to keep up with the other eliet programs.
Yes, KU also played in North Dakota because it was the home of Jeff Bosche and in California where Drew Gooden came from…this was done to attract recruits although with the OADs, promising them a trip to their home state may no longer work and I don’t believe it is done anymore.
Of course it is relevant that Louisville has a good basketball history, without it it is just another KU-KSU game with a local audience. Many of the North Carolina teams play each other since many are in the ACC and also Coach Williams makes it a point to play small state schools, but how many of those do we watch? Duke and North Carolina because they are top programs and not because they have an intra-state rivalry, that is of interest only to the people of North Carolina in the same way that a KU-KSU rivalry is of interest only to the people of Kansas.
Coach Williams is a fan of small towns (he grew up in one) and small schools and started playing local small schools as a way of helping them. Pittsburgh State, Emporia State, Fort Hayes, Washburn get more money from one game at AFH than they collect the entire year playing at home, it is the biggest boon to their budget, plus they can use the trip to the Cathedral of basketball as a recruiting tool. I think we can agree that the other two major schools in the state, KSU and WSU are not in the same situation.
I am aware that every other year a legislator from the Wichita area introduces legislation to force KU (and KSU) to play WSU; it goes nowhere, because all KU has to do is say that in exchange it will no longer play the smaller schools and the legislation will never pass. This has been going on ever since I remember and I have lived in the state for over 36 years. Also, the legislature does not control the schools, the Board of Regents does and they have no intention of upsetting the applecart.
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Good points on both sides. I understand the business side is a totally separate analysis as opposed to the pure desire of fans to see a KU-WSU matchup (or KU-Mizzwho).
@justanotherfan Man!! No one has summed up KState so totally and perfectly as you did. They are nationally irrelevant. Not good enough. Outside the BigXII, nobody cares about KState. I travel a lot and my gut feeling ALWAYS comes up the same: *KU is on top of a small heap, with KSU and WSU buried under that small heap–the rest of the nation is much more enthralled with their own, bigger regional rivalries.
The truth about Snyder is he is not a recruiter, but simply a really good developer of talent. They always lose to the big boys, or need a down year by OU or TX to beat them. Frankly, it was embarrassing to see Colin Klein on the KSU sideline, and not even in the NFL. He couldnt do it even in KSU’s big bowl game, although he had his 15min of paparazzi-type fame. KSU’s performance against Auburn was embarrassing to watch, as they keystone-kopped away their chance at a winnable game against an SEC then-top5 team. Just couldnt do it.Yes, KU is currently worse than KSU in football, but know that my resentment against KSU is mostly due to their fans’ ignorance about their beloved ftball barely registering on the national scene. Yes, KSU fans may dislike KU fans’ arrogance about basketball–but, the big difference is KU basketball IS nationally relevant.
The minute Snyder retires, they instantly are in the ‘real’ football horserace of trying to get better talent, like KU is trying to do now. Their so-called stability is because Snyder plays his plateaued-ceiling game very well. Its all he can do, as he cannot do anything else, and I can dare say that because in his damn-long timeline, he hasnt shown himself to be anything better than a C-grade/mediocre recruiter. I’d like to tell KSU people to “go study” the differences between Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Bob Stoops…and Bill Snyder. Of course they wont get it. But as soon as Snyder is done, they’ll be in the same boat as KU, in trying to get 4- and 5-star kids, as no one anymore will have the patience for the walk-on development timeline. Its easy: 4 or 5star kids could potentially contribute in their frosh/soph seasons, instead of waiting for jr/sr season productivity. Simply faster timeline. We see KU pick a (perceived) recruiter (Beaty) over a slow-traditional-build that Bowen likely would have built…
See Ron Prince era. Sure give Snyder credit for his stability, but my point is its a plateaued system. Not even the top program in its own conference. Dont use it as a f—ing model. Its about time KU football set its sights higher. KU AD looked at an SEC team’s WR record setting resume by Beatty…so maybe we see SZenger already is aiming higher for a system that is more reproducible than Snyder’s 1man, unique concoction. Going for a coach with knowledge and some performance at an SEC school. For that, I am thankful. Dont want a KSU redux/reboot. Double-dose of mediocrity out of KS, no thanks.
Leave it to KU to try to get our football to follow our own success in bball. To do that, you import or emulate the best, not a local middling level program next door, in our fly-over, low TV market state.
So about KU-WSU, while the fans may care, nobody else does, and out of KU’s nonconf games, playing WSU could be a wasted opp. Its not fully about money, as Im sure the KU-WSU game could pack IntrustArena…its about more.
But the not-soft Self/KU fan that I am just would competetively like to shut those WSU fans up by beating their team…(& obviously feel much the same about those KSU fans w/their PurplePuritan blinders on).
RCJH
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@JayHawkFanToo 3 - 4 years ago Jill Docking was still chairperson of The Board of Regents & as recent as early 2014 it has been Fred Logan, who in the mid to late 80’s was a resident of Olathe, & may still be at present. I lived in Olathe 30 years, but have not since 2004. One of his boys played on an OYBA team of mine then. Entire family was always very cordial & professional & well mannered. Have had many pleasant experiences & friendships from public & scholastic sports in Olathe the last 4 decades & watched the town grow from about 25,000 to about 200,000. The first year the YMCA was forming in Olathe I was flattered to have been asked to help with the development of their youth basketball league by it’s director and accepted. Have been out of that loop for about 20 years now, but those were really fun & rewarding years for me.
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“But the not-soft Self/KU fan that I am just would competetively like to shut those WSU fans up by beating their team”
Me, too!
I apologize if I ruffled any feathers in here. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and this subject is very strongly opinionated on both sides. That, in itself, probably says something, but I’m not sure what it is.
Again… sorry to all.
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@drgnslayr No need to apologize. In fact, thanks for coming up with something that we can be passionate about, no matter which side we take. Now if you really want to stir the pot, start a thread saying why we should (or should not) bring back Mangino…
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@drgnslayr I have to disagree with you regarding the past being irrelevant. At least to an extent. Here’s why: when Roy left, there was obviously some anxiety about the future of the program, but we knew we’d be able to attract a top-tier coach. When Self leaves, it will be the same. It’s a premier job. When Pitino leaves/retires, I think we can all agree that Louisville will be all right. Even if they swing and miss a time or two, they will eventually get it right. The same cannot be said when Marshall leaves Wichita State. That’s one of the things that tradition buys you - a little more leeway in the present & future.
You also mention how Louisville came from the MVC. So did KU, KSU, OSU, Nebraska, Iowa, Misery, etc. So what? The conference is garbage now, especially with Creighton being the most recent to jump ship. The Shockers’ affiliation with the Valley is just one of multiple reasons why sustaining their current level of success is going to be a steep up-hill battle. I agree the Big 12 sucks as well, but not to the level of the Valley. Not even close. I’d put my money in Lawrence every day before I bet on Wichita. To me that’s the most baffling part of your post, how you say we will never compete against Kentucky, yet you somehow want to put WSU on level with us?
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@drgnslayr said:
Every year we play turkey games, like in the Bahamas, that actually COST Kansas money. Those are not even revenue games.
Not sure why you think the early season tournaments are costing KU money. As it’s pointed out in the link I’m providing, What’s up with all these tropical early season basketball tournaments, we do get paid to play in these games. And if UNI is getting 150,000 of the 2,000,000 then I’m sure your payout is based on your worth to said tourney. It also states that most conferences require member schools to participate in them.
Gate has nothing to do with this. And if it did, we would already be involved in this series, because the math has been done, and a home/away/Sprint deal makes more money than playing 3 games in AFH. Already proven.
I’d like to see the numbers on that proposal for myself. Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? Are we getting $$ and then some for the away game that would make up for one less home game???
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I believe KU needs to add an annual non-conference game against a worthy opponent. I already stated my desire to see us play MU, but it could be anyone that becomes a ‘looking forward to it’ type of game on the schedule. Illinois-Missouri is a good example, the aforementioned UK-UL game too. Wisconsin plays all its’ in state D-1 rivals every year. They’re always good games on the schedule (UW Milwaukee is not as competitive as it used to be). They’re fan friendly and are considered rivalries. Colorado-KU could be one of these annual border wars. Maybe KU-Nebraska, or KU-Iowa. KU-Arkansas? They’d be good for TV, good for fans, good for our RPI, good for improving our chances of doing well in March.
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@wissoxfan83 Duke wasn’t bad?
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Coach Self has said before that KU makes at least $600K on every home game, $200K-$250K for games at Sprint Center and pretty much nothing at the away games of a home and home series since the payment is the return game, and KU has to pay the travel expenses including the charter jet it uses. KU plays one game a year at the Sprint Center for the same reason it plays a game in Colorado, to allow the local fan base watch the team live. There is zero financial advantage playing away from AFH.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I’m sorry, I’m kind of dull today, I don’t follow your comment? Rephrase please!
@Kip_McSmithers That’s good information. I just wish it wasn’t just about the money.
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@wissoxfan83 : Not sure I follow you. Currently KU has the number 10 SOS with the number 4 RPI. Last year the same. So we aren’t playing a non-con full of cupcakes like Syracuse. Currently teams can schedule 29 games (28 if you play in an early season tourney since tourney only counts as 1 game). KU has 18 conference games. 9 at home, 9 away. So of the 10 non-conference games KU typically plays 6-8 at home, the 2 neutral court games (CC and Sprint Center), and then two return games with teams in a scheduled H/H. Like someone pointed out. I’d rather we play a game in a place were we can gain MORE exposure like Philly or So Cal where there are always big time recruits in the area.
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@Kip_McSmithers Just following the thread here of playing WSU or not and saying it wouldn’t be bad to have an annual rivalry game outside of the league. I know we have a tough schedule which has improved in the last few years.
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I didn’t realize the bounty was that high in the Bahamas.
"Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? "
Here is the math:
3 games at AFH 16,300 X 3 = 48,900
3 games, 1 AFH, 1 Sprint, 1 Wichita Intrust Arena 16,300 + 18,972 + 15,000 = 50,272 and two of those games include no low cost student tickets
I’m certain this could be packaged at a higher cost. Brand the name of the series and charge higher ticket prices. Both team fans will be willing to pay a premium to support this rivalry. I see the average price for a ticket in Rupp for the “Battle for the Bluegrass” is now $848. Granted, we are lowly Kansas teams. Maybe we can get half that amount.
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From foxsportsmidwest.com Frankcamp read…
" The No. 8 Shockers (4-0) are on a run of 24 straight appearances in the Associated Press poll, the longest such streak in program history, inching them ever closer to Marshall’s desired status as the Gonzaga of the Plains. "
Wow, if we could beat these guys it’d really feather our nest…LOLOLOLOL!!!
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@globaljaybird I had no idea they had 24 - TWENTY FOUR! straight AP appearances. WOW.
That’s not quite half as many conference titles as we have…
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KU is now #10 and WSU #11 in both polls.
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I would say the Shlockers are the team I dislike the most ( at this moment ). I celebrate their losses, and wish them the worst. This, from a team I loved for years growing up, from Cliff, the XMan, and the whole bunch. When you insult us, no game for you…
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@JayHawkFanToo we really need to beat Utah-handily!!
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This team seem to like doing it the hard way though…
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The players have always been very respectful of KU in interviews and also at games they attended; they both played in St. Louis last year in the NCAA.
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@JayHawkFanToo the wigs bros helped that!! I like the WSU kids. Just…
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I don’t have a problem with WSU at all and I hope they do well, just not as well as KU. The better they (and KSU) do, the better the state looks. Keep in mind that we are the only state with at least 2 Division I schools that has sent ALL teams to the NCAA for several years now, and hopefully will continue to do so.
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I feel exactly the same as you!
I’m sorry for protracting this can of worms. We’ve had this discussion way too many times now, and I’m usually one of the instigators.
I’d like to play them because it would be an entertaining game, and most of the time we would win. We would always keep the chatter down, and over time, we would show clear dominance. No more bull about “chickenhawks!” That always sets me off and sends my blood pressure out the roof!
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@JayHawkFanToo Exactly. The players aren’t trashing talking, and running down KU - it’s their big mouth coach, and their arrogant fan base.
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@drgnslayr said:
I didn’t realize the bounty was that high in the Bahamas.
"Not sure how H/H/H is less than H/N/A??? "
Here is the math:
3 games at AFH 16,300 X 3 = 48,900
3 games, 1 AFH, 1 Sprint, 1 Wichita Intrust Arena 16,300 + 18,972 + 15,000 = 50,272 and two of those games include no low cost student tickets
Are you implying that in this hypothetical series that KU would get all of the gate at the Sprint and Intrust??? But not only the gate the concessions, merch, parking, ect.? Jayhawkfan claimed KU makes around 600k per home game and 200k for Sprint so really there’s no way we can make cash on this. Just because the other arenas have more seats doesn’t always equal extra cash because it’s split way to many ways. It’s too bad but there isn’t cash to be made playing this series unless tv chips in the difference. You know anybody from ESPN?
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We can’t play every non-conf game at home. I’m sure the math is different, but that math will be different playing ranked teams in AFH. They aren’t coming to AFH for nothing.
I bet both schools in the “Battle for the Bluegrass” come out extremely well and better than just scheduling another home game with an irrelevant team.
If we really want to make a comparison we compare apples to apples and select a home-and-home with another team. How about Temple? Liacouras Center (Capacity: 10,206). We have that game coming up in a couple of weeks.
I will guarantee a big TV gate if KU plays WSU. I will personally make that guarantee. Even in year 1. This would be run through marketing and a theme name applied. Media would jump on board. The media feeding frenzy would begin.
I was in NY about 2 months ago, and chatted it up with some hoop fans. The question came to me… “when will Kansas play Wichita State?” I’ve heard it other places, too. It was never presented to me as a slam on Kansas. Basketball fans just want to see these games. Even in NY, it doesn’t take much imagination to realize this could become a rivalry and be a good game to watch.
Fans everywhere like rival games. I know I do. I could give a flying f__k about UCLA and USC, but I also watch that football game. Same with UK and UL in basketball.
Kansas is missing the boat on what could be a great media event, big money maker, and a good recruiting tool.
We were just starting to really cash in on the Mizzou rivalry when Mizzou went renegade. Even though I dislike Mizzou, I was digging the whole “Border War” theme, and so were people far, far away.
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I have to respectfully disagree with you. We watch the UK-Louisville primarily because both are top ranked teams and the rivalry play mostly to the regional audience. North Carolina plays Duke, Wake Forest and NC State, all same state teams and conference rivals but do we watch all these games? No, we watch UNC-Duke because they are usually highly ranked teams and the rivalry usually appeals to the regional audience, the others we usually ignore unless there is nothing else on TV. At one time when NC State was powerhouse, their games had a national audience…because…they were top teams and the rivalry part , once again was restricted to the regional/conference/state audience and the rest of the country couldn’t care less; once NC Stae dropped from the top ranks, nobody outside the region really watches that game anymore.
If we play WSU, the game would have bigger audience if WSU proves that it is a top tier team for a lot longer than a couple of years; otherwise, the only people that would care are Kansans. KU pays a lot of money to teams that come to AFH with not return game… Home and home series have a very low (if any) payout since the payment is the return game. KU makes more money playing The Little Sister of the Poor at AFH with no return game at their “church/gym/social activities center” than it makes playing WSU in a home and home series or even a the Sprint Center. Just about every game KU plays on the road is a home and home series; a lot of the non-con games that KU plays at home are home only with no return game. It’s all about the money.
You have to consider that games played at the Sprint Center are not split two ways between the participating teams, there are split 3 ways with Sprint Center getting the lions share of the box office. When KU plays ta AFH it does not pay much for the use of the facility but when it plays at Sprint Center basically has to pay for rent/operation of the joint. The City of Kansas City pays close to $14M per year just for the bonds used to build the arena. If you factor about 140 events per year, that is one very 2-3 days, every event has to contribute $100k just to pay the bonds, and it does not even include the operating cost of the arena. You can see why they have to take a big cut from the pie. KU makes about one third playing at Sprint Center that it makes playing at home.
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“If we play WSU, the game would have bigger audience if WSU proves that it is a top tier team for a lot longer than a couple of years;”
Sorry… but your Jayhawk is showing. The rest of the country respects their ranking. Come on…
They could be ranked for 100 years and you still wouldn’t respect the quality of their game.
I guess I’m the only basketball fan in the country (besides Shocker fans) that want to see this game.
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@drgnslayr said:
They could be ranked for 100 years and you still wouldn’t respect the quality of their game.
I think that is you attempting to characterize opposition so that your view is the only reasonable one. You have no way of knowing what that person believes with regard to how long it would take, other than they would like them to be more than a couple of years.
If we were to play WSU this year, it would get some play. Sure. But if they were to be a contender for several years, the play would be much greater and would be something of a national attention getter. The nation, in general, doesn’t particularly care about two teams who are rivals if it has no meaning to anyone other than those two fan bases.
The KU Moo games were a good example. We all lived and breathed that thing. It had importance to us. Came out here to the East Coast, and it was irrelevant. All they knew about was Doook UNC. Why? Because year in and year out those two teams mattered. When they started to pay attention to the KU Moo rivalry because I mentioned it so much, they were shocked at the level of hatred that existed between the two fan bases and the history dating back to before the Civil War. But they were not aware of it, nor cared about it.
Rivalries are great. Rivalries are fun. Some are more healthy than others, but overall they are a good thing. I just don’t see WSU (yet) as one.
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I think you have me confused with someone else.
If you read my posts, I have written many times that WSU is a really good team and the real deal; most recently after their game against Utah. I have nothing but respect for the team. However, the program has to show consistent excellence and so far we don’t know what is going to happen in another year or two. Remember when they used to be good in the 80’s and then they disappeared from the scene and asked to stop the series with KU because of the beat downs they continued to take?
WSU is the second coming of Butler, remember them? They went to the Final Four two years in a row and there were hot…and now they are an also run and an afterthought.
Sure, I would like to see a game against them, but from KU’s perspective and under the terms WSU wants (home and home) it does not make sense for KU, not financially and not PR-wise. KU has little to gain and a lot to loose, on the other hand, win or loose is is nothing but upside for WSU.
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@drgnslayr Wrong slyr. @JayHawkFanToo & many others as well would love it to happen. When I was a kid they played about every year. “Beatdown in the Country” is what I’d call it. But if it ain’t bringin’ in the money from the East & West coasts, it ain’t’ gonna’ happen. And Bill very well may have veto power too, so what can what else can we whimper about? Makin’ money for the MVC or the BG 12 isn’t exactly what you could call cuttin’ the BIG BUCKS. Don’t believe me, just ask SZ the next time over cocktails And don’t settle for Courvoiser, go for Hennessy. His clientele can certainly afford the good stuff.
