We've been here before, but after last year, it feels different.
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@drgnslayr Isaiah Moss had a PER of 14 last season. That’s the same as Mitch Lightfoot last season. Moss shot a pathetic 38% from 2 point range last season.
Off the court and character wise, Moss is an upgrade over Vick, there’s no arguing that part of the equation and that’s why Moss is a net upgrade over Vick. As far as actually basketball ability goes however, Moss is not a better player than Vick. Moss had 14 games last season where failed to make a 3 pointer. 8 of those 0-fer games were in Iowa’s last 16 games of the season. 4 of those 16 games, he didn’t make a single FG the entire game. Go look at the game logs for Moss and you will see a picture of inconsistency on offense.
Moss does not drive well or take many shots inside the arc. Moss took 162 FGA last season, 114 of those were from 3 point range. I’ll be honest, if someone gave me the choice between Lagerald Vick without the baggage or Isaiah Moss, I’d take Vick every time.
There will be moments this season where people are wondering why the hell did Self bring him in, just be ready for it.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 well that is depressing!
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Man TexasHawk is certainly on a mission this summer to crush any hope of optimism or positivity that we all are craving after the debacle that was last season. How dare we be excited and hopeful that things are better. Shame on us!
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drgnslayr said:
If I’m not mistaken, Moss is a 40+% shooter from trey. Yes… he can be inconsistent. Every player is from trey. I watch Steph Curry go 2 for 12, then go net 8 in a row. It’s the nature of trey shooting… hot, cold, hot. What counts is the %.
You are putting up a solid argument. But you don’t account for the positive unknowns. Mostly… we have a HOFr coach. It’s his job to tweak the offense to make things work.
I definitely see Moss as an improvement over Vick and Q. Moss has many offensive weapons. Vick was only a trey shooter. Vick’s shot stopped falling because teams would scout him. Really easy… get in his grill on the trey line and he’s done. He wouldn’t drive on those opportunities because he became a very non-aggressive player. Q wasn’t a threat from trey or to drive. Zero! Surely Moss will play with more aggression.
I don’t want to bag on Vick… I still like Vick a lot. But we were a better team without him. That speaks volumes. And though our depth chart fell… I felt like we would have been a much better team without Q. Total liability.
Watch the clip on Moss scoring all those points in like a minute and a half. He surely has some alpha dog in him to do that… something no other D1 player has ever done.
I like your commentary on many of the new guys and trying to throttle down immediate expectations. Wise. We never know if one or more of those guys can end up giving us a solid contribution in year 1, but we just can’t count on that. I know I don’t, but I’m still extremely optimistic about this team!
This +100. How some people (not mentioning any names lol) forget that Vick was often a liability on defense, something that Moss is known for being good at. I would take solid D and the percentage he shot last year in conference play, however inconsistent, every day of the week. To me, this is a no-brainer.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Dave has a ways to go as a big. But, when I hear Coach Self raving about him the way he did this summer, it tells me something is happening enough for the coach to say “hands down” the most growth in the summer. Maybe some shooting range, maybe some improved ball skills, maybe some better rebounding. These players aren’t stationary bicycles- they grow…they improve.
I think you’ve been crooning over Dedric’s 19ppg so much, you aren’t realizing that his points will be replaced. They are always replaced. Might not be one guy picking up the slack, but I guarantee you Bill’s offense will always score what they normally score. In fact, because we have to make up for one big scoring guy, that makes our offense more diverse, and harder to defend. After Perry graduated, we all said where are the points going to come from now that Perry is gone, and we managed. We wonder every year where the points are going to come from ( unless we have returning top scorers), and every year, Bill manages to figure it out. It is why he is in the Hall of Fame.
Maybe it’s a hodgepodge of 3 point shooters that carry us when we need it. Maybe it’s Moss one night, Dotson the next time, and Agbaji the next. Maybe our frontline allows to us play more aggressively, and we pick up some cheapies off our defense. Cheapies we weren’t getting last year because our defense sucked so badly. Maybe the improved rebounding allows us to have more possessions than last year, and so the “live and die by the 3 when they pack in the lane and we shoot badly” meme doesn’t hold as much water. Maybe the question isn’t “how is KU going to score” as relevant as “how are we going to score on KU”??? . Remember, there’s more than one way to skin a wildcat.
This man gets it. Well said @KUSTEVE
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@HawkChamp This is very good team on paper with a very high ceiling just like each of the last several seasons. Moss is a solid defender, but he’s not better than Dotson or Garrett at that end of the floor.
The ranking last season and this season is based purely on one player and that’s Udoka Azubuike. His two wrist injuries to me are a sign that his muscles, tendons, and ligaments haven’t caught up to his size yet. I guarantee he’s not the only player who’s hand has been caught in Jersey in practice under Self, but why is he the only one suffering serious injuries from that. The one year he didn’t have a season ending injury, Doke still missed the B12 tournament with back issues.
I’ll this right now, as long as Doke stays healthy, KU will be a top 5 team. If Doke misses games though, and given his track record I’d bet money him missing games, KU will struggle like last year because they will still have the same issues as last season.
With Doke, this team should make at least the E8. Without him, they will struggle to reach the Sweet 16.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 it was his knee, the reason he missed big 12 tourney
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 Whoever doesn’t start among Garrett, Agbaji, and Moss is getting the back up minutes on the wing. Jalen Wilson isn’t playing nearly as many minutes as you think he will this season. He’s a solid prospect, but there’s a reason he’s ranked as low as he was in a weak class. He’ll be a nice player in years 2 and beyond, but he won’t average more than 7-8 minutes this year and that’s only if Lightfoot redshirts. If Lightfoot doesn’t redshirt, Wilson will average less than 5 mpg.
just do me a favor and let me have some of that drink your drinking cause that must be some good shit - -that’s laughable and I stay with he is gonna play ALOT more then you think
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@jayballer73 agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here. Minutes are exactly what I’d expect (8 min or 5 min) whether there’s a redshirt btwn Lightfoot/Enanura or not.
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@jayballer73 Who is Jalen Wilson better than right now that would give him big minutes?
Is he better than Udoka Azubuike?
Is he better than Silvio DeSousa?
Is he better than David McCormack?
Is he better than Mitch Lightfoot?
Which of those 4 players is he better than right now?
Only way Jalen Wilson is playing good minutes this year once Selfntrims the rotation is an injury or suspension to someone in that group.
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@Crimsonorblue22 That’s right, Embiid was the back issue. It’s still an injury attributed to his size though which is the main concern with Doke.
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To me, he looks like a taller Thomas Robinson. Great job Hudy!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Very few of Bill’s teams have ever had a scorer as prolific as Dedric. Frank. Can’t think of anyone else other than those two off the bat. It’s not the norm. No doubt Silvio won’t score like Dedric, but I could see Dotson scoring 5 more a game than last year. Doke will get his, and I really think Ochai breaks out in a significant way. If they disappoint, then we have a new version of 2012. They’ll be ok on offense, but they will dominate on defense. 2012, we were 23rd in offense on Kenpom…last year, we were 27th. In 2012, we were ranked 3rd in defense…last year we somehow ended up 17th. As bad as we were defensively…17th. Unbelievable. If our defense turns it up like I think it will, we’ll be grinding teams into a fine powder.
Now, this is all predicated on good health as you have alluded to in previous posts. But having injury history can also be a positive because it has the athlete taking direct action to prevent reoccurrence. With Ochai, if I had a whisper of a doubt about his health, I wouldn’t have seen him take a pass in a scrimmage, and pass the ball between his legs before dunking with authority. With Doke, I don’t think we’ll see the backboard splitting dunks of the past…we’ll see softer throw downs in order to protect his hands.
So, if our offense is just ok, then we still have a shot at 2012 type ceiling, where we won close games until the championship game. They weren’t pretty, they had their moments where scoring was a real challenge, but that team was a defensive nightmare for other teams. Just like we’ll be. Now, we are discussing a Bill Self team, are we not? The originator of “Bad Ball”. Bill prefers a 65-60 game more than a 85-80 game anyway. He’s been itching to get another big in the lineup for years. Hi-lo, baby…it’s where it’s at. No more " Four Out Fools Gold". That change can make the offense not flow as well, so it’s not like your offensive concerns are unfounded. But, Bill likes it like that…grind it out, out rebound them, out tough them, defend hard … that’s his calling card. I don’t think we’ll be nearly as offensively challenged as you think, but if we are, we’ve got the right guy at the helm to make it work.
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approxinfinity said:
@jayballer73 agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here. Minutes are exactly what I’d expect (8 min or 5 min) whether there’s a redshirt btwn Lightfoot/Enanura or not.
you got your opinion no problem - -and I’ll take what your drinking too lol
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I believe Embiid broke his back when he was thrown to the court. Still no foul has been called though. lol
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 Who is Jalen Wilson better than right now that would give him big minutes?
Is he better than Udoka Azubuike?
Is he better than Silvio DeSousa?
Is he better than David McCormack?
Is he better than Mitch Lightfoot?
Which of those 4 players is he better than right now?
Only way Jalen Wilson is playing good minutes this year once Selfntrims the rotation is an injury or suspension to someone in that group.
your trying him to have him take minutes from positions he is never gonna play - - Hello? - his minutes will come from the 3 - - again from the 3 - - again from the 3 - you can’t try and ask if he is good enough to take minutes from Doke - -or McCormack those are positions he doesn’t even play - -ya probably better then Mitch - -well talent wise anyways - -Is Mitch gonna start at the 3 - - ummm – NOPE - who will keep him from getting quality minutes at the 3? - - at best Abaji will be competing - - - Eraunra isn’t better at this point anyways - both Freshman Garrett might take some but not enough to keep him at 5-7 minutes a game. - -and when he isn’t playing minutes at the 3 then he wil like has been mentioned more likely then not be getting minutes at the 4
There is no way in hell he only gets 5-7 minutes a game - -he would have to be a complete bust - -NOT HAPPENING - your approach you talk like he has never seen a basketball court in his life and will trip over his own feet - you must be watching some other film. - but this is pointless to keep going back and forth with you - -I’m staying with what I said before - -he will for sure get more then any 5-7 minutes a game. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 Jalen Wilson is not a 3 at the college level no matter how much you want him to play that spot because he’s not quick enough to guard perimeter players and doesn’t have the handles to be a perimeter based player. He’s was 6-8, 215 lbs. on his recruiting profiles with more room to fill out. 6-8, 230ish lbs. is not a wing in college, that’s a stretch 4. He have a similar role in the offense that Perry Ellis, Josh Jackson, and Marcus Morris had as face up players who can stretch defenses
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I’m excited to see the team play, but I don’t expect any impact from the freshman this season. Moss is the impact addition coupled with the returning guys, less the deadwood that makes me excited.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 Jalen Wilson is not a 3 at the college level no matter how much you want him to play that spot because he’s not quick enough to guard perimeter players and doesn’t have the handles to be a perimeter based player. He’s was 6-8, 215 lbs. on his recruiting profiles with more room to fill out. 6-8, 230ish lbs. is not a wing in college, that’s a stretch 4. He have a similar role in the offense that Perry Ellis, Josh Jackson, and Marcus Morris had as face up players who can stretch defenses
Are you fricken serious? - - are you really trying to say you know more then Coach Self? you know I try with you - - I really do - -just seems no matter what or with you ,you just love to debate and seems like you have all the answers to everything.
Are you for real ? - Why do you think Coach went after Jalen as hard as he did - we missed the 1st time - -Coach wanted him - -got lucky things worked out the 2nd time - -do you really think Coach Self recruited this kid to Ku just so he could be buried at the end of the Bench to play the measly 5-7 minutes a Game that you so wisely predict? - Get out of here with that. - -Coach recruited Jalen for a reason - -because of a need - -we have a void at the 3 - -that’s EXACTLY why he recruited Jalen - -to fill that void at the 3 - -he sure the hell didn’t recruit a top 50 kid to have him come sit with our situation being what it is at the 3 - -he IS NOT going to be sitting at the end of the bench playing water boy. - -you wear me out - with some of your statements - - not only with me but I see with plenty of others here - -I think I put my trust in Coach Self a little more then your wisdom.
He sure isn’t as bad of a player as your portraying him out to be - -wanting to compare him with others that aren’t even a playing a position that he would ever play - just nutts to try and make comparsions like that. -you just go ahead and believe your theory and I’ll take mine - it’s America - you have that right. - -I have my right -I’ll take recruiting experts opinions over yours though for sure - - people that get to see – -evaluate - -and who talk with college Coach’s about their opinions of players over yours - -sorry that’s just how it is - - - Again when you have experts saying the kid was UNDER RANKED under radar - ya I’ll believe that a little more - Again Coach didn’t recruit him to sit - -you thinkin his recruiting pitch to Jalen he said - hey come on down - - help with water - - dab the floor -w MYA squeeze you in for 5-6 minutes?
he way you talking he is worse then Braun - -McBride - like the 13th player in a 13 team roster - - ya ok you take that and un with it or just sit back and watch - he WILL play the 3 - an be fine -he WILL get more then your 5-7 minutes - - and KU will be fine - - an w WILL go deeper then 7 players even 8 this yr with this roster and we WILL be fine - -you have a great day - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 Bill will play Jalen almost exclusively at the 4, just wait for it.
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@BShark traditional 4 or stretch 4/ big version of 4 and 1.
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@dylans he is a Marcus/Perry style 4. If he sticks around until he is a JR/SR I could see the offense running through him predominantly.
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@BShark It might be a Doke/Dave rotation at the 5, and a Silvio/Jalen/Lightfoot party at the 4. Then you’d have a Marcus/Moss/Agbaji rotation at the 2/3, with Marcus giving Dotson his 3 minutes off every game. Jalen would have more minutes available at the 4 anyway.
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@jayballer73 I think he could be very valuable to us at the 4, man. JW allows us to run a 4 out, where we can spread teams out. JW can slay a big on the perimeter. It also pulls congestion out of the paint, and allows Doke to do that voodoo he do so well.
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KUSTEVE said:
@BShark It might be a Doke/Dave rotation at the 5, and a Silvio/Jalen/Lightfoot party at the 4. Then you’d have a Marcus/Moss/Agbaji rotation at the 2/3, with Marcus giving Dotson his 3 minutes off every game. Jalen would have more minutes available at the 4 anyway.
If Mitch doesn’t RS I think Jalen almost never finds minutes. Tough to say.
Dave and Doke are definitely 5s. Honestly I think Silvio is a 5 too but that’s a whole different discussion.
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 Bill will play Jalen almost exclusively at the 4, just wait for it.
nope lol
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KUSTEVE said:
@jayballer73 I think he could be very valuable to us at the 4, man. JW allows us to run a 4 out, where we can spread teams out. JW can slay a big on the perimeter. It also pulls congestion out of the paint, and allows Doke to do that voodoo he do so well.
According to Texashawk - - he is going to only play 5-7 minutes. - So if he only plays that how is he gonna be very valuable for us lol - -he is getting more then 5-7 minutes - he will get that in his sleep. TexasHawk says not that good of shooter - so how he gonna slay a big lol - - just saying. - In all seriousness buddy I hear you - could happen - hope so. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Nobody thinks McBride will get any mins?
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@jayballer73 Cole Aldrich did not play big minutes as a freshman (8 mpg), Thomas Robinson did not play big minutes as a freshman (7 mpg). Jeff Withey did not play big minutes as a freshman or sophomore (3 mpg as a freshman, 6 mpg as a sophomore).
A lack of minutes does not mean a lack of talent. It means a lack of opportunities due to better options already on the roster. And no, Bill Self will not go more than 8 deep once the rotation is settled if he doesn’t have to. Self has had to go deeper the past few years because of injuries and eligibility issues that have crept up, but when there are no issues of that nature, Self has never gone beyond an 8 man rotation.
You might want to go do some research on the issue. In years where there’s more than 8 players that averaged 10 mpg, look at the games played number as well and see how rotation players missed time due to various issues.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Not a lot. Dotson is going to play at least 32-33 mpg again this year (32.4 last season). There’s just not many minutes available for him as a back up PG and Marcus Garrett likely gets some of those back up minutes as well.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Nobody thinks McBride will get any mins?
He’ll be around 5 MPG. He’ll have a few games with 10-15 minutes just from foul trouble but he’ll have a bunch of 1-4 minute games and DNP’s. The third PG on the depth chart won’t have many opportunities.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think there is a really good chance McBride gets minutes IF he is a high level ball-handler that can handle D-1 pressure (low TOs) — something we wont know until he does it. Folks regularly underestimate the need for high quality ball-handling. I don’t know how many times I move heard, oh, Selden can play PG, or we could move Relford there, or you name it. I’ve regularly stated my opinion that such talk is just silly and that has always played out that way.
Ball-handling is an irreplaceable, required, high-level skill that can get an otherwise inferior player on the court. It’s a must-have skill. And it can’t be “pretended.”
The key I think is ifSelf thinks that Garrett is a satisfactory stop gap for 8-10 mpg. Garrett, however, is subpar with the ball. Not from a ball protection stand point (like Selden) — Garrett is actually fine there — but he’s slow with the ball, a “tail-dribbler” as my HS coach kindly referred to that type of PG.
Self likes playing fast. Garrett could get those minutes if Self is fine with a slower pace.
If McBride is strong with the ball and not a turnover machine, I could see 8-12 per game.
And let’s not forget, Self loves having more ball handlers on the floor. So if McBride is good, he and Dotson together for stretches is not that far fetched. This could let Dotson get some valuable off ball time.
I don’t think we enough solid info on McBride though to accurately project just yet. But I think we do know what will get him on the court.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Moss is a solid defender, yes, and no one - atleast that I know of - has said that he is better than Dotson or Garrett defensively. He is going to be at times, though, playing alongside both of those guys (I have never knocked Garrett’s defense) - that’s a pretty solid trio of defenders, and Agbaji won’t be no slouch either. This is going to be a good defensive group. Teams are not going to be able to score on us as much this season as last, from outside or in, while we will score more.
I think that Doke, Dotson and Agbaji’s averages will go up, ditto for De Sousa who sat out last year and will finally have a full season. Moss will be an improvement over Vick - a no-brainer - who was pretty much absent through the entire Big12 schedule. Dave, McBride and Enaruna will provide some scoring, as well. I know that Wilson will play, too, where and how much remains to be seen - but he’ll contribute a few points.
The players that I just named would give us a 10 man rotation, and while Coach hasn’t of late been known for using so many guys (out of necessity, due to lack of depth) there was a time that he did, and damn did it ever pay off. I think that this year’s team - with all of the interchangeable parts and different skill sets - offers such a possibility. Hell, I didn’t even have a chance to get to Mitch (who’s defense I love!), Braun (going to be a tough, very good, versatile player) or Harris (a great pick up!).
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@Marco Self has never gone more than 8 deep when there’s been no injury issues. Even the 2008 title team which was probably the deepest team Self has ever had only had an 8 man rotation. Don’t expect that to change starting this year.
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CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I expect it to change.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.
Thank you, Farmer… And that would be a ten man rotation.
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Marco said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
CJ’s breakdown seems pretty reasonable to me. He assumes Mitch and Braun RS. I think Moss probably gets a few more and McBride a few less. Probably Doke a few less and Dave a few more as well. Doke probably never will be a guy that can play 27 MPG because of foul trouble and poor FT shooting.
Thank you, Farmer… And that would be a ten man rotation.
Might be semantics, but that’s an 8 man rotation. I don’t consider anyone who averages under 10 MPG in the rotation.
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@FarmerJayhawk Doke’s mpg seems about right. I think he does play around 27 mpg and I think Silvio and Dave’s minutes are low though. I think all 3 of them between 25-30 mpg. I think Silvio could possibly top 30 mpg. Silvio and Dave are both good enough FT shooters that pulling Doke in those crunch time moments shouldn’t be a big deal.
@Marco Why would Bill Self suddenly change from 16 years of history and habits? And no, that projection is not a 10 man rotation, it’s still an 8 man rotation. For clarity’s sake, a rotation level player is someone who typically plays 10+ mpg, not less. Tristan Enaruna at 3-7 mpg is not rotation level minutes. That’s him getting spot minutes because of foul issues or someone needing a quick breather before a TV timeout.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I can’t see all 3 at 25-30. There’s only 80 available at the 4 and 5 and 25 each would leave only 5 for Wilson and/or Enaruna at the 4. I agree that Silvio could push 30 since he’s the only that can play both spots. Last year Doke was around 23, 24 the year before. I don’t think he goes over 25 given Silvio and Dave are both better FT shooters.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Crimsonorblue22 I think there is a really good chance McBride gets minutes IF he is a high level ball-handler that can handle D-1 pressure (low TOs) — something we wont know until he does it. Folks regularly underestimate the need for high quality ball-handling. I don’t know how many times I move heard, oh, Selden can play PG, or we could move Relford there, or you name it. I’ve regularly stated my opinion that such talk is just silly and that has always played out that way.
Ball-handling is an irreplaceable, required, high-level skill that can get an otherwise inferior player on the court. It’s a must-have skill. And it can’t be “pretended.”
The key I think is ifSelf thinks that Garrett is a satisfactory stop gap for 8-10 mpg. Garrett, however, is subpar with the ball. Not from a ball protection stand point (like Selden) — Garrett is actually fine there — but he’s slow with the ball, a “tail-dribbler” as my HS coach kindly referred to that type of PG.
Self likes playing fast. Garrett could get those minutes if Self is fine with a slower pace.
If McBride is strong with the ball and not a turnover machine, I could see 8-12 per game.
And let’s not forget, Self loves having more ball handlers on the floor. So if McBride is good, he and Dotson together for stretches is not that far fetched. This could let Dotson get some valuable off ball time.
I don’t think we enough solid info on McBride though to accurately project just yet. But I think we do know what will get him on the court.
If this is the path to pt then Harris might surprise if he is good to go academically. He is a rock with the ball.
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@FarmerJayhawk Doke is going to be the focal point of the offense this year which means he’ll see an increase in minutes this year. Last year, Lawson was the focal point of the offense and the year before that was Mason. If Doke was a good FT shooter, I would’ve said he’d get north of 30 mpg because he’s that impactful on both ends of the floor. An increased role in the offense means Doke’ll get an increase in minutes as well.
Silvio is by far the best rebounder among those 3 and the best defender because he can guard both post positions. I think Silvio’s defense is where we’ll see the immediate improvement from all of the scout team stuff he did last year. If Silvio worked on his range during the year off and can hit a spot up 3, that’s a game changer for the offense because it brings the high-low back in a very prominent way. Silvio’s FT shooting numbers in his limited minutes suggests he has the form to extend his range.
Dave can play both post spots because he does have a mid range game. With Dave being a poor rebounder for his though, I think he probably plays the 4 most of the time he’s in because Some and Silvio are the better traditional style post players.
It could end up being more like 30-25-20 with Silvio-Doke-Dave in that order for minutes which I think most people would be okay with.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@Marco Self has never gone more than 8 deep when there’s been no injury issues. Even the 2008 title team which was probably the deepest team Self has ever had only had an 8 man rotation. Don’t expect that to change starting this year.
you’ll see 8-9 players with quality minutes this year
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@FarmerJayhawk Doke’s mpg seems about right. I think he does play around 27 mpg and I think Silvio and Dave’s minutes are low though. I think all 3 of them between 25-30 mpg. I think Silvio could possibly top 30 mpg. Silvio and Dave are both good enough FT shooters that pulling Doke in those crunch time moments shouldn’t be a big deal.
@Marco Why would Bill Self suddenly change from 16 years of history and habits? And no, that projection is not a 10 man rotation, it’s still an 8 man rotation. For clarity’s sake, a rotation level player is someone who typically plays 10+ mpg, not less. Tristan Enaruna at 3-7 mpg is not rotation level minutes. That’s him getting spot minutes because of foul issues or someone needing a quick breather before a TV timeout.
did you happen to see Jalen’s projected minutes? - - like I was saying - he gonna get quality minutes - this is even higher for me - -still saying 12-14 minutes a game - - not 5-7 like you trying to say. - -Watch.
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@jayballer73 8 maybe, 9 no, unless you want to keep ignoring 16 years of history. Only way 9+ players get 10+ mpg will be because of injuries just any other season that has seen 9+ players in that range.
Ignoring that I think those minutes projections were low for Silvio and Dave and high for Wilson, did you happen to notice that minutes projection for Wilson fit with him being a 4 and not 3 like you keep thinking will happen?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Doke was still the focal point last season when he was available. Self said we still were playing through Doke and he had a higher usage rate than Dedric. Doke is what he is. He’ll be about 13/7/2 and shoot a stupid percentage. And he’ll be a frustratingly poor rebounder for his size. He and Dave have very similar career rebounding rates.
I’ll be really surprised if Dave plays much, if any 4. Self has almost never played 2 not quick bigs together. Closest parallel I can think of is Joel and Tarik, who almost never played together. Jamari got almost all the backup 4 minutes (he actually played more than Tarik that year.) He’s much preferred a guy with some skill and quickness (e.g. Shady, Perry, Billy, Dedric). So it would be a big trend break for Bill to go down that road. And I don’t think Dave can guard many 4’s. He’s just not quick enough laterally. If Bill sticks to form, he’ll play Jalen or Tristan at the backup 4. Dave exclusively at the 5.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 8 maybe, 9 no, unless you want to keep ignoring 16 years of history. Only way 9+ players get 10+ mpg will be because of injuries just any other season that has seen 9+ players in that range.
Ignoring that I think those minutes projections were low for Silvio and Dave and high for Wilson, did you happen to notice that minutes projection for Wilson fit with him being a 4 and not 3 like you keep thinking will happen?
super he can play at both - -and will for sure - -thus there is your 13 minutes but you have wore this out you just hold fast with your thought - & I’m gonna stay fast with mine - -there will be 9 players with quality minutes - -staying put with that too Watch
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FarmerJayhawk said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Doke was still the focal point last season when he was available. Self said we still were playing through Doke and he had a higher usage rate than Dedric. Doke is what he is. He’ll be about 13/7/2 and shoot a stupid percentage. And he’ll be a frustratingly poor rebounder for his size. He and Dave have very similar career rebounding rates.
I’ll be really surprised if Dave plays much, if any 4. Self has almost never played 2 not quick bigs together. Closest parallel I can think of is Joel and Tarik, who almost never played together. Jamari got almost all the backup 4 minutes (he actually played more than Tarik that year.) He’s much preferred a guy with some skill and quickness (e.g. Shady, Perry, Billy, Dedric). So it would be a big trend break for Bill to go down that road. And I don’t think Dave can guard many 4’s. He’s just not quick enough laterally. If Bill sticks to form, he’ll play Jalen or Tristan at the backup 4. Dave exclusively at the 5.
ya I just don’t see Dave playing any 4 either - I think he is a true 5
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@FarmerJayhawk I think you’ll be surprised there. Dave keeps working on his body and I think that’s a big part of why Self said Dave has stood out so much this off-season. Dave has an offensive game similar to T-Rob and T-Rob played a lot of 4 for KU, particularly in 2012 playing next to Withey.
I’m not saying Dave plays exclusively at the 4, but his athleticism and mid range abilities are the best among himself, Doke, and DeSousa at this time (at least that we’re aware of since Silvio is still a question mark on that end) and because of that, I think we’ll see Dave mostly play the 4 on offense and guard the 4 spot when he’s on the floor with Doke and guard the 5 spot when he’s out there with Silvio.
BTW, the usage rate for Doke and Dedric last season was very close, Doke was 30% and Dedric was 29.1% so not a significant difference.
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@jayballer73 David McCormack will play more at the 4 this season than Jalen Wilson will at the 3.
And no, David McCormack is not a true 5, he’s a traditional style 4. At the college level, most traditional 4’s do play the 5 because true 5’s are an endangered species in modern basketball. In Self’s time at KU, he’s only had four true 5’s come through the program. Sasha Kaun, Jeff Withey, Joel Embiid, and currently Udoka Azubuike. Other’s who have manned that spot have typically been traditional style 4’s playing alongside a stretch 4.
