Weis Era Over.... Clint Bowen 39th KU FB HC
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Don’t forget that the 5-7 record was in large part due to the internal situation of the program more so than talent, where you had players (and parents) crying and whining about the “mean” coach and the Athletic Director getting involved and undermining Mangino. Had the fat man been given support or left alone to do his job, the outcome would have been likely different.
As far as “KU can’t simply rely on foreign oil.” …as a matter of fact it absolutely has to rely on “foreign oil” since the state does not produce enough “domestic oil” to supply even one major program, let alone two, with the “other” state program being in football what KU is in basketball…and the basketball program, even when it regularly takes the top state players, it still relies heavily on “foreign oil” wouldn’t you agree?
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I agree that KU has to depend on out of state talent. However, when there is in-state talent, KU needs to get it. How are you going to get a good player from across the country to come here when you can’t get the guy from across the street?
My point in referencing the 5-7 record was that Mangino had Reesing, Meier, Briscoe, Sharpe, Stuckey, Chris Harris, and Justin Thornton. That’s basically the whole offense as far as skill guys and most of the secondary. Even if you argue that Mangino could have replicated his 7-5 regular season from the year prior, he still was in line to regress just because of everything he was losing talentwise. Any way you slice it, 2010 was not at all similar to the Orange Bowl year or either of the previous two seasons. You had a new guy at every offensive skill position, a brand new secondary in a pass happy conference and very little depth because the firing occurred at the end of the season, so there wasn’t much time for whomever the new coach would be to assemble a full class. I just get frustrated at the “we were three years removed from the Orange Bowl” argument when that 2010 team did not have a single player on it that had a meaningful role on that Orange Bowl team, and in fact the 2010 team didn’t have many players that played a meaningful role on the Insight Bowl team in 2008.
The best players on the Orange Bowl team were Talib, Fine, McClinton, McAnderson, Reesing, Briscoe, and Meier. Not one of those guys was on the 2010 team. The best players on the Insight team were Reesing, Briscoe, Meier, Sharp, Jonathan Wilson, Stuckey, Harris and Thornton. Only Harris remained. This was an entirely different team from a team that was probably an 8-5 or at best 9-4 type team. 2010 was at best a 6 win team even if Mangino had stayed.
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How are you going to get the top talent? KSU has a superior program and they get first dibs and whoever else is left will likely go to a big time program. In any case and as I mentioned, the state produces too few top players to make much of a difference.
As far as the comment “2 years removed from an Orange Bowl win” it was not meant to be that we had the same personnel, we did not; however, the good will and standing of the program at the time were good enough to influence recruiting, much like Coach Self uses the winning tradition and players in NBA to recruit basketball players. What is KU going to tell now a top recruit to get him to come to Lawrence? We won ONE conference game in 3 years? Yeepee!!! How do you think that is going to work? At this time all KU can offer is playing time and top recruits will get that anyway…at a better program. Best bet is to find 3-star recruits with high potential and hope they develiop, that is what Mangino did anyway. Replacing coaches every couple of years does not help and raises all kinds of red flags with potential recruits.
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@JayHawkFanToo we do have some good D backs in the NFL.
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@JayHawkFanToo " KSU has a superior program and they get first dibs "
That looks pretty weird to an old geezer like me. It’s true, just looks weird. I remember when you could get KSU season tickets with a $5.00 purchase of gas any where in town.
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I know, In the late 70s Playboy did a story about the worse programs ever in football and KSU was selected #1.
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In this century KU has had 2 All-American and currently has 7 players in the NFL. I am sure that Bill Snyder mention this while naming the 13 All-American KSU has had in the same time and the 13 players in the NFL, while casually mentioning Jordy Nelson’s play for the Packers…just sayin’
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KSU is absolutely the better program right now, but KSU is also still in Manhattan, over 100 miles from Kansas City, and that matters quite a bit. I know quite a few people on the high school scene in Kansas City and from talking to them, it’s still a task to get those KC kids to want to go to Manhattan. Some will go, obviously, but if KU shows it has a direction, there are quite a few kids in the KC area that would be more than happy to pick KU over KSU.
Out in western Kansas that won’t be the case, but the bulk of Kansas talent is going to come from Wichita and the corridor between Kansas City and Topeka. KU has a huge location advantage along that critical corridor between Kansas City and Topeka.
As for tradition, tradition is a funny thing. Does it matter to recruits that KU basketball has a tradition? Of course, because that means going to KU means you will compete for conference and national titles every single year. Does K-State’s football tradition mean that? Not quite. It means you will go to a bowl just about every year, but let’s remember that Snyder has only led KSU to 2 conference titles in his tenure. KSU’s football tradition is more about 9 win seasons than conference and national title relevance. In that respect, KU is behind, but not the same distance as say, KU and Oklahoma or Nebraska. For all that Snyder has done at K-State, he has not been able to get KSU over that hump and make them a national force. They are good, but they aren’t a “I’m gonna go to K-State because I want to win a Big 12 and a national title” good.
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@justanotherfan KSU also has close to 50 kids from the state of Kansas on their roster and if they want to play close to home it’s " I MAY not win a NC or Conference Championship, but I’ll get to play in front of a full house every home game and it’s better than my other in-state alternative ".
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A couple of thoughts.
I read somewhere that the average person remembers or is aware of facts only his age minus 10-15 years, ergo the average 18 year old remember or is aware of what happened roughly in the last 3-8 years. So the average HS recruits is looking at that short of a period of time and is really no cognizant of what happened before that. Ask any basketball (less players to remember) who were the starting players at KU 10 years ago and give you 10:1 odds that 8 out of ten recruits cannot even name 3 and only if those players made it to the NBA, and I also give you 10:1 odds that the same 8 out of 10 do not know who was the National Champion 10 years ago. In other words, tradition matters only to a point, and with the current generation Internet, smart phones) where immediate results are the norm, 3 to 5 years is probably the limit of what they care to remember.
Now, KSU is not only the better football program now, it has been a the better program for close to 25 years (except for a couple of years in the Prince/Mangino era), and it will be as long as Snyder is there. KU will be fighting an uphill battle recruiting against KSU for the foreseeable future. You don’t think KSU football is a force? Except for the Prince years, KSU has been in the top half of the conference consistently, where KU, except for short run in the Mangino era, has consistently been at the bottom…1 conference win in 3 years will do it to you.
You also mention distance. Wichita is actually 30 something miles closer to Manhattan that it is to Lawrence and Topeka is only 20 something miles closer to Lawrence than Manhattan. If you look at the entire state, 80%-90% of it is closer to Manhattan than it is to Lawrence.
In realistic terms, does distance make difference? For the top players its does not. 5-start recruits will go play for powerhouses regardless of where are located since their objective is to get exposure to move on to the NFL; BTW, the state currently has no 5-star recruits. It is the same case for 4-star recruits (4 in the state) and 3 of them are going out of state and one to KSU. The 3-star recruits are role players and maybe starters at major programs but likely starters at the smaller programs, and given the opportunity, will go to a good program than a below average program that is closer since the exposure is much larger. The 2-star players (or below) usually will be not see a lot of playing time at the bigger programs and are recruited by the smaller programs and likely will go to the best program that offers an opportunity. While you cannot build a consistent top program with 2-star players, a good recruiter will spot the diamond in the rough in this group, much like Mangino and company did with the players that became the core of the Orange Bowl team. Now, when it comes to JuCo players, Kansas has the biggest percentage in the top 100, but as we all saw in the last couple of years, it really does not work that well when building a program. There is a reason why those players are playing JuCo football in the first place.
If you want exposure, KU is not the place where you want to go. I (a Kansas resident, Olathe) am not not able to watch KU’s first couple of games on TV while I am able to watch every KSU (and MU ) game. Heck, thanks to Mr. Zenger I cannot even watch all of KU basketball games, while again, I can watch every KSU (and MU) basketball game…of course, along with the 20-30 other people in the entire country I can watch every race of the women’s rowing team and every competition of the women’s golf and cross country teams as well.
Just enough rambling and assorted thoughts; I am sure some will agree and some will not.
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@JayHawkFanToo so tell me why juco kids are playing juco? I’ve seen a lot of Jayhawk con. Fb. I’ve seen Shawn Hill play, and Cordarrelle Patterson. Hutch and Butler would beat quite a few D1 teams. I know some are sent down a year instead of sitting, act scores for others. Tennessee had Patterson running track. Facilities are pretty nice too. Just wondered.
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If a players has the talent, grades and no disciplinary issues, he play in a regular 4 year program and does not go to JuCo… A lot of the players at JuCo are there because of grades (which will be an ongoing problem) or issues related to eligibility or discipline. Look at how many top rated JuCo players Weis brought and how many are still on the team.
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@JayHawkFanToo disagree w/you on this!
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Back in the day (1970’s) JUCO was for kids who weren’t good enough for Div 1 yet, or had academic challenges, or maybe borderline money problems OR hadn’t matured yet. I would guess most JUCO kids with size/speed/athleticism today can outperform a high school grad-maybe even a college frosh or soph/ but then the stud high school recruits leave the JUCCO kids in the dust as they develope. Sure, some JUCCO kids are late bloomers, but not many.
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I did not say that “all” JuCo kids were there because of off the field issues, but “a lot” of them are. No question that some will become very good Division I players, but those are not the norm, they re the minority.
As far as Can Newton, you actually made my point. Here is a snippet about him:
Newton initially attended the University of Florida, where he was a member of the Florida Gators football team in 2007 and 2008. As a freshman in 2007, Newton beat out fellow freshman quarterback John Brantley as the back-up for eventual Heisman Trophy winner Tim Tebow. He played in five games, passing for 40 yards on 5-of-10 and rushing 16 times for 103 yards and three touchdowns.[9] In 2008, during his sophomore season, Newton played in the season opener against Hawaii but suffered an ankle injury and took a medical redshirt season.[10]
On November 21, 2008, Newton was arrested for the theft of a laptop computer from another University of Florida student. He was subsequently suspended from the team after the laptop was found to be in his possession.[11] Campus police “tracked the stolen laptop to the athlete…Newton tossed the computer out his dorm window in a humorously ill-advised attempt to hide it from cops.”[12] All charges against Newton were dropped after he completed a court-approved pre-trial diversion program. “I believe that a person should not be thought of as a bad person because of some senseless mistake that they made,” said Newton in 2010. “I think every person should have a second chance. If they blow that second chance, so be it for them.”[13] Newton announced his intention to transfer from Florida three days before the Gators’ national championship win over Oklahoma. In January 2009, Newton transferred to Blinn College in Brenham, Texas to play for head coach Brad Franchione, son of Dennis Franchione.
So, in fact, Cam Newton did not start at JuCo but transferred to one because off-the field issues, and once things cooled he transferred to Auburn and he spend a good portion of the season mired in an eligibility controversy and at one time was suspended and then reinstated by the school. Like I said, a lot of the JuCo payers come with a lot of baggage.
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@JayHawkFanToo still disagree!
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This is what the forum is all about and as long as we do it respectfully, we can always agree to disagree.
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@JayHawkFanToo I want you to change your mind!! Did you read the lists? Aaron Rodgers- to name a few. Have you ever watched juco fb, jhawk conference?
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I don’t disagree that some very good players come from JuCo but you keep naming players that are the exception rather than the rule. Aaron Rodgers was not recruited by any any majors school and had to go the JuCo route. Saying that JuCos are a source of top talent is the equivalent of saying that KU is the way to make it to the NFL…yes, KU has sent players to the NFL, some were even outstanding (although not lately), but if you have the potential and talent to play in the NFL, KU is just not the way to get there.
Here is a blurb about Rogers start:
Despite his record-setting statistics, Rodgers attracted little interest from Division I programs. In a 2011 interview with E:60, he attributed the relative lack of attention in the recruiting process to his unimposing physical stature as a high school player at 5’10 and 165 lb. Rodgers had wanted to attend Florida State University and play under Bobby Bowden, but was rejected.[22] He garnered only an offer to compete for a scholarship as a walk-on from Illinois. He declined the invitation, and considered quitting football to study for law school.
He was then recruited to play football at Butte Community College in Oroville, a junior college about 15 miles (25 km) southeast of Chico. Rodgers threw 26 touchdowns in his freshman season,[24] leading Butte to a 10–1 record, the NorCal Conference championship, and a No. 2 national ranking. While there, he was discovered by the California Golden Bears’ head coach Jeff Tedford, who was recruiting Butte tight end Garrett Cross. Tedford was surprised to learn that Rodgers had not been recruited earlier. Because of Rodgers’ good high school scholastic record, he was eligible to transfer after one year of junior college instead of the typical two
He was the proverbial late bloomer that overcame his physical limitations and the stereotype of what a QB should look like. Again, there are similar players that make it to D I and the NFL but they are not the norm. The JuCos in Kansas are famous for having good football since they seem to be a favorite destination for major programs needing a place to “park” players with issues until they get resolved, even KU did that a couple of times in the last few years,
I believe I mentioned in a previous posts that Kansas has the largest number of players in the Juco Top 100 ranking; so yes, I do follow the Jucos not a lot but some and mostly related to players biding their time, but I still believe that the JuCo road to Division I and potentially the NFL is definitely “the road less traveled.” KU took over 20 JuCo transfers last season including top ranked and 4-star rated juco transfers Marquel Combs and Chris Martin and how did that worked out for KU? Not too well, wouldn’t you agree?
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I read Taits 4 things to know about KU football’s upcoming coaching search and one thing leaves me worried. The last sentence in the first point. "But the heavy lifting in the search has yet to begin and may not start for some time." Now I’m not saying we need to hire someone tomorrow, or even the next day, or even this month, but we are likely be one of, if not the least attractive job out there should we let all of the other schools that will be aiming for the same HCs to come and take the one we want and could lure in??? The two guys (Lincoln Riley and Phil Montgomery) I mentioned in the other coaching thread are just like Josh Heupel in the fact that they are "on the radar of a lot of ADs across the country."- per Dave Miller at National Football Post.–> Possible Replacements for Chuck. Can we really afford to sit and wait until the end of the season?? I really hope the comment from the KUSports article is completely wrong or just some smoke and mirrors and actually Zenger is out there actively pursuing and talking to potential KUFBHC candidates.
Am I the only one that thinks KU and SMU will battle over the same HC candidates and is incredibly embarrassed by that??
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@Kip_McSmithers I for one think our football program is embarrassing, so yes to compete with SMU for a Football coach is embarrassing as well. Perhaps it is because they have deeper coffers?
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AND, Just because we have an interim doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be looking hard right now. I hope we are holding our cards close to our chest.
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@JayhawkRock78 : Haha!! Deeper coffers!! Agreed of the idea that we should still be looking. On the KUSports thread they talk about what’s the magic number to keep Bowen on as HC full time?? Some say 2, maybe 3 wins, plus allow only one blow out, and to be competitive in the rest of the game. I think if KU comes out and beats two other teams besides fellow bottom dweller ISU and isn’t blown out once and shows fight, heart, and progress I’d be all in for him staying on if he’s willing to make some assistant coaching changes that I believe are necessary. And I think Bowen is a guy that would stick around if he turned the program around and honestly that is what we really need. But I’m desperate so I’d take an up and coming young HC even if he’s just looking to use us as a stepping stone until somewhere better comes calling if he could turn this mess around and leave us in a better position than what he found us!!
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@Kip_McSmithers I hope he does! Nice to have someone who cares so deeply for program? Probably won’t cost us as much either!
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If Bowen can win two or three games I would be tickled crimson and blue. Here is a nice read if someone can help with the link.
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Tait has had a couple of articles (not) updating us on the search. The first was about Harbaugh Read article… and just how close he was to being the FBHC before good ol’ Lew screwed the pooch, figuratively. Now, do I think he was that close, uhhh hell no. ^1^ And now the latest piece is about Gary Barnett, go ahead, I’ll wait for you to Google search who that guy is… Read article… and his interest in the job. Tait thinks the Barnett interest in our job will only help us and it’s free publicity. Yes, publicity from a known NCAA rules breaking jackass that hasn’t coached since 2005 when he left CU amid scandals. USA Today Article This article is all about what happened back in Barnett’s tenure at CU. Do we really want our brand to be associated with a guy that has made these comments in the past about alleged sexual assaults committed by his football players??? This guy is bad news. I don’t care if he’s found Jesus, Allah or the Eighth Dynamic I wouldn’t consider him for water boy. If I’m Zenger I call Barnett asap and kindly ask him to please refrain from expressing interest in our FBHC position.
^1^ noticed this after I posted it. and it’s too funny to just correct. He = Harbaugh and not Uncle Fester. I know for fact that Lew did actually screw the pooch.
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@Kip_McSmithers Who’s going to come to Kansas if they don’t get overpaid?
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My only preference in who gets hired is that it’s someone who brings some - sorry - swag to the team.
Has anyone watched TCU lately? They stand out on the field and even in full uniform, you can tell they ain’t scared of anyone. “OKLAHOMA? Screw Oklahoma - bring em on. We ain’t afraid of no stinking Sooners.”
We need that kind of attitude too. Even if it’s a lie at first. Fake it till ya make it baby.
And please don’t take this as sacrilige - the big-ass Jayhawk on the side of the helmet has to go. Get Bill Snyder to design us a Powerhawk.
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KU needs to hire a current mid major coach. We are an underdog right now and have to accept that status. We can’t act like a powerhouse because in football, KU is not a powerhouse.
Whomever this new coach is needs to be thoroughly vetted not just on the personal side of things, but they need to talk to people in his area about how he is as a recruiter, how he is with the local media and how he is on campus. Remember, Mangino was a personnel nightmare on campus. Weis is notoriously prickly with boosters and media. That stuff matters. KU needs a coach that is personable off the field, but can bring that underdog fighting spirit on the field.
I am hoping for a midmajor coup here, but I will wait and see. If KU goes out and hires some “name” retread, I can guarantee we will be back in this spot having this same conversation in four years.
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@justanotherfan We can’t act like a powerhouse, but we could at least try to act confident. At the very least like we’re not scared to death.
