A Game Changer
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@drgnslayr yeah it is! You are good at that!
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Thanks!
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The more I read, hear and think about the Cavs roster next year, the more confident I get that theyāre going to suck on defense.
Do you think oft-injured Andy Varejao, Kevin Love, Brendan Haywood and Tristan Thompson are going to be able to provide any consistent rim protection? Are mid-30s 3-ballers Ray Allen, James Jones and Mike Miller going to play D through the season? Deep into the playoffs? Are Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters and LeBron going to improve their D from last year simply by exerting themselves more? Are they still going to be as effective on O if they do?
Iām just not seeing a team that can play D. The deficiencies of this team seem pretty reminiscent of the deficiencies in Miami. Weāll see.
@DoubleDD You guys had a lot to say about LeBron not being likeable. I was willing to like him until he forced Wiggins out the door without talking to him or referencing him at all to the media. That pretty much did it for me. I guess Iām relieved and feel more like myself. I can still root for LeBron to fail.
However, I was curious how his likeability will fair outside of the Jayhawk faithful. You made mention of his legacy earlier, and while Iād like to believe you that his legacy will not age well, or that it will be dwarfed by the legacy of the Spurs, because I feel much the same way you do, I donāt know where we could find quantifiable analysis of public perception on him. I know the media wants to love him now, so forget any āLeBron is the most popular male athlete!ā polls cited by ESPN, but I donāt know if weāll ever really know. Thoughts?
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@drgnslayr love the post. After reading all the comments and doing some research. Iām not sure itās so much about proven versus potential as I thought it once was. Iāve come to the conclusion itās more like the product of our society. I know crazy right? However just like in life there is the undeniable desire to get what you can get now and donāt worry about the future. So what if you ruin your franchise for 5 or 10 years so long as you get that championship. That is all that matters. However does that championship really matter that much when you finish last every year and are getting creamed when your so called canāt miss players have all moved on?
To many people never think long term or itās affects. Some will even say that LeBron left the Heat because the cupboard was bare? Well I wonder why? Could it be the Heat traded away all their picks to have the big 3? Sure they had a great run, but 10 years from now will anybody remember? I bet 10 years from now the Spurs will be remembered. The Heat will be a flash in the pan, but the Spurs would be remembered as a dynasty.
Already the Media is building up the Cavs a sure fire championship team, and the trade isnāt even happened. They are blinded by the talent the Cavs will put on the court of Irving, Love and LeBron. Yet reality is Irving and Love play no defense and the Cavs will have no bench. Did not the Spurs teach us anything? Of course they did, but again itās all about what you can get now.
Love maybe a good to great player no doubt, but is he really worth 3 first round picks? I donāt think so. Letās not forget Love spent what 6 years in Minnesota and they didnāt even sniff the playoffs. If he so good like everybody and a few KU fans have said then where is the playoff runs? No Love is a stat guy. Tell you one thing I just became a huge Wolves fan and Cavs hater, and you now what Iām not alone.
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@approxinfinity time is the ultimate judge. LeBron will go down as one of the best to ever play the game. Heās that good. However LeBron did irreversible damage when he left the Cavs. Fans are people, and most people are loyal to their teams no matter what. LeBron chased a legacy when he shouldāve built one.
No fan from any part of the country or world would have thought of him as a lesser player if he wouldāve just stayed with the Cavs and maybe won one or two championships. He would be considered amongst the greats. Yet he sold out and chased a legacy. Legacies arenāt something you chase they are something you build. Do you think Jordan would be the enigma that heās is today if say he won 3 championships with the Bulls and went somewhere else and won three? Remember fans love loyalty no matter who they root for. After all fans are loyal. Who do you think a fan cherishes more the player that sold out and chased the money and a better supporting cast, or the player that stood pat and took less money to win with his team?
Sure LeBron is a favorite right now. He went back home. Maybe if he can win a couple championships with the Cavs all can be forgotten? However as time pass bye and Espn and the likes start running their shows from the past. LeBron will be remembered as the one that chased a legacy.
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Excellent! Excellent!
āLegacies arenāt something you chase they are something you build.ā
That one needs to go over on the quotes page. That is now one of my fav quotes of all timesā¦ thanks!
I believe LeBron is as much a victim of himself. As a human being, he has received special treatment since one of his early pubescent growth spurts. Humans who get accustomed to special treatment suddenly canāt relate to the rest of the human experience. I think he likes to stir the pot wherever he goes because he is used to a stirred pot even just from him walking into a building. He must be one of the most identifiable humans on earth. But I question if he likes to stir poison into the pot. He just sees everything only through his own perspective because life has always come to him.
Just imagine LeBron playing for Coach Pop? He may be the only coach on earth with even a tiny chance of teaching him that team play goes way beyond lifting your assist stats.
Iām critical of LeBronā¦ but Iām thankful for having the opportunity to see him play live and plenty on the tube. No one can challenge his greatness as a player. But he is a long ways from becoming one of the great team players of all times. Getting on that level requires doing as much off the court for your team as on the court. And the best team players open their vision to the entire league and beyond. Everyone is on the same team.
I hope a light comes on inside LeBron while he is still playing. He is a great player and it would be awesome for him to develop all the levels of greatness as a player! It would be good for him, the league, for basketballā¦ and even for mankind! (hope he doesnāt read thisā¦)
Iām not surprised that certain NBA franchises dominate. There are plenty of tools in place to promote a better balance, but certain teams just have better ownership, management and coaching. SA and Coach Pop are at the top of my list! Check out about any interview with his players and they usually mention how many years they have been with Pop. Pop understands the value of continuity. Iāve heard it in his words many times, and now I hear him speaking through his playersā lips. Continuity is an extra gift from having a great team concept that the players are all bought into. It is no surprise that SA players want to stay put.
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The great players do not go chasing someone elseās legacy; they create their own. Look at the better players of our generation such as Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem and many others; their legacies stand alone and do not need to be compared to someone elsesās to be considered great. Some other players, Kobe and Shaq come to mind, while great on their own, spent a lot of effort in trying to prove their greatness (compared to other players) and in the process their legacy became less rather than more.
There is no question that LeBron will be consider one of the top players of all time; however, his legacy will not be as great because he spent a lot of effort trying to top Jordanās instead of creating one of his own. There is no question that LeBron does what is good for LeBron and collateral damage is of no importance to him. People were starting to get over the big middle finger he gave Cleveland 4 years ago, and then he decided to do the same thing to Miami, and now he has new group of fans that deeply dislike him.
If the Cleveland experiment backfires, the damage will be huge and maybe not reparable, despite how forgiving and forgetful fans can be.
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@JayHawkFanToo The mention of Jordan brought to mind Michael Jordanās hall of fame speech. He basically spent his entire speech demeaning just about everyone that had ever come into contact with him and talking about how great he was. Jordan was as much about Jordan as anyone ever has been - he looked out for his own interests. It just so happens that he was fortunate enough to be teamed with an all time great as a teammate for his entire run, as well as other āvery goodā players (Rodman, Horace Grant, Kukoc). Early in his career, when he wasnāt surrounded by those types of players - basically, from his rookie year until 1989-90 - his teams got bounced from the playoffs early. It wasnāt until Pippen and Grant excelled that Jordan started winning titles.
Bird never won a single title without McHale and Parish. Johnson never won one without Kareem. He only won two of his five without Worthy. Wilt won one title with Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham, and the other with Jerry West. Russell won with Cousy, Jojo, Havlicek, KC and Sam Jones. Havlicek passed it on to Cowens. Olajuwon won his second title with the help of Drexler. Kobe and Shaq teamed up for three. Kobe won two more with Gasol. Wade won with Shaq, then Lebron and Bosh. Duncan won two with Robinson, then, with Robinson gone won more with Parker and Ginobili. Isiah Thomas won with Dumars and Rodman. You can go back through history and canāt find a single all time great that won multiple titles that did so without teaming with another all star level talent, often and all time great.
Those two paragraphs cover 44 of the 67 titles won in the history of the league, including every multiple title winner of the last 30 years. Greatness requires not just individual greatness, but the greatness of at least one (probably two) teammates.
Some teams just arenāt good at building that. Dallas has surrounded Dirk with that type of talent once. Paul Pierce and Boston did it once, but couldnāt repeat. Barkley never did win a title. Stockton and Malone didnāt, either because they always needed one more piece. Same with Ewing. Robinson never won a thing before Duncan came along.
The thing is, I think the current players are well aware of this. Lebron is well schooled in history, particularly NBA history. So is Kobe. They know what it takes to win a title just by looking at history. They also know that those windows often slam shut long before we are ready.
Lebron knows that his legacy as a great player at this point is defined only by titles. He needs at least one more, and the next 3-4 years is the best time to get it.
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@justanotherfan the ideal that the number championships define a players legacy is not entirely true. Yes championships help but theyāre only a part of the equation. Being loyal to your team and fans are part of that legacy too. Hanging around when things are going bad even though you could go and shop your skills somewhere else is apart of a legacy too.
I donāt think youāll find a person arguing the point that a star player doesnāt need help. Itās how you go about giving that player help. I feel that building a team is always better than putting one together. Yes I understand trades and FAās have to happen. Just not to extreme that you trading 3 first round picks for one player. Especially when that one player is Love.
Listen to the argument? Even the one your making? ((LeBron only has so many years left so you pull out all the plugs to win a championship for LeBron)). What happened to win one for the Cavs? When did this all become about LeBron that he can make or break organizations, because he is chasing something heāll never really have a legacy. Oh no heāll be remembered for sure, but not in the realm of Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Duncan. Me first players are usually forgotten in the realms of time.
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Very nicely summarized.
Championship help a legacy but do not make one. Lets not forget that players such as Robert Horry, who no one would consider a superstar has 7 rings (that is more rings than Jordan, Johnson or Jabbar), while players like Larry Bird, who everybody considers a superstar has only 3 .
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Love these posts. All very compelling. Iām charged up for the NBA season right now! This has got to be one of the most anticipated seasons ever. Many story lines now that the tanking for Wiggins season is finally in the rear view.
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āā¦the ideal that the number championships define a players legacy is not entirely true.ā
I second that. Actuallyā¦ who decides the legacy value? Fans. And fans all differ. In my books, I look for performances that stick out from the rest.
For exampleā¦ I wasnāt a big Isiah Lord Thomas III fan until 1988. I, like most non-Detroit fans, was adjusting to the āBad Boyā style of play. But Game 6 was where I went from being neutral on Isiah to fully appreciating him as a player and person. He badly sprained his ankle, which immediately became swollen to the size of a grapefruit. Weāve all been thereā¦ But he wouldnāt get off the court and instead he went for 25 pts in one quarter to keep his team in the game (an NBA Finals record I believe is still good today). They went on to lose that series with the Lakersā¦ but Isiahās play was a part of inspiring the Pistons to then become back-to-back champions in the following years.
Those championships do mean a lot, but it was what got them there that mattered most. Isiah was the catalyst. That game still sticks with me, more so than the two championships that followed.
All the greats have moments where they achieved far beyond anything in reach of lesser players. That is what makes them great. And it is typical that championships follow somewhere (but not always).
Players like Charles Barkley donāt have the gold and diamond ring reminders of their championships. They have to live with the fact that they just didnāt have the good fortune to play on the right team at the right time and have the right kind of luck to run alongside the race to the finish line. Butā¦ fans are not going to forget Charles Barkley (and company). The lack of championships is not going to erase the record book, one which includes Barkleyās prowess on the boards and how he dominated the league on rebounds with his height of 6ā6".
Championships are illusive. And there is no higher law of fairness in place to guarantee that the very best take home the trophies. Sports is a subset of lifeā¦ look at some of the richest people on the planet and tell me they are the very top business minds. Iām not dissing on those who win trophies or large piles of money. Most (and maybe all) deserve their rewards. Iām just not saying they are the best because they reached that summit.
In the case of LeBron. He was already one of the all-time greats in my books before he went to Miami. His success in Miami really didnāt enhance his position where I sit. He can still climb higher with me if he realizes how being a team player is a lot more than improving assist stats.
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I agree that championships donāt establish a legacy. There is more than that.
For instance, letās switch sports and talk about Jackie Robinson and Curt Flood. Both of them have legacies that are more about what they did off the field than what they did on it. Those are legacies built around not being a star.
But I think stars are judged differently. We judge them based on individual accomplishments, team success, off court things and personality. Nobody worries about whether non-stars have a great personality except for those that are putting together the team.
Lebron has done the on court stuff and his off court history is pretty good to me. As far as we know he hasnāt impregnated a dozen different women, gotten into a bunch of bar fights, drove drunk, shot someone, hit his wife/girlfriend or any of the other things we often read about athletes doing. He just decided he wanted to play for a better team, and so he did. Now he has decided that he can do a better job assembling a team than the executives in Cleveland which, given their track record, isnāt an unreasonable belief.
In a way, I think this will be his legacy. The NBA is starting to shift even more towards being a playerās league and with that will inevitably come the ability of the playerās to dictate how rosters are constructed. No one is going to games to watch the executives duke it out - they go to watch the players play. The players now realize that and are exercising that influence. As the best player, Lebron is leading the way on that, first by making it clear that he would take the max so that the league salary structure actually makes sense (i.e. best player making the most money) and then by making Cleveland act now to improve around him for both now and in the future. After all, a core of Love-Irving-Waiters isnāt that bad.
Trading 3 for 1 isnāt ideal, but as I wrote before, itās necessary given that you canāt really build your franchise off other teamsā incompetence anymore. Teams arenāt just giving away talent for nothing at this point.
For instance, if Lebron had come into the League in the Magic Johnson situation (landing on a veteran team poised for a title run), he would have been drafted by Detroit instead of Cleveland (the Pistons picked second that year) and landed on a veteran team. If that happens, how many titles does Lebron help Detroit win from 2004-2010? Does he match Magicās run of five titles from 1980-1987? If so, what is his legacy?
Or letās say that Lebron comes into the Bird situation (drafted by one of the best front offices in sports, with a legendary coach) and lands on a team like San Antonio. I think itās fair to say that if that had happened, the Spurs would have won more than the 3 titles Bird won in the early 80ās with Boston.
Or letās say that Lebron comes into the Jordan situation (drafted by the Cavs, but able to pair with another star just as heās coming into his own) who then are able to somehow trade in 2006 for the rights to LaMarcus Aldridge, giving Lebron a floor spacing big just as he starts figuring out how to utilize a player with that talent.
If any of those scenarios happen, we are probably discussing Lebronās career in far different terms. Heck, give him Kevin Love from the 2008 draft and we arenāt even having the current discussion.
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@justanotherfan first I donāt think the discussion changes on Love. (((he doesnāt play defense))). If he is such a great player then why hasnāt the Wolves even sniffed a playoff invite? There is more to being a great player than stuffing the stat book. Maybe itās just me but great players put their team on their back when they are tired and over matched and leads them to victory and greatness. Something Love has never done, but hey he spreads the floor and rebounds.
I understand your Love (no pun intended) for LeBron as he is truly a great player. However time is the ultimate judge of ones career. History has shown fans and the media remember the teams that where built and not put together. Itās not really a new idea to put a team together. In all sports itās been tried and for the most part has failed. Even the Heatās two championships in 4 years can be considered a failure in the grand scheme of things. Lets not forget the great Heat team that everybody thought was the greatest of all time suffered the worst defeat of any NBA team in a championship series to a team that was built.
Maybe youāre ok with trading all your draft picks (your future) and signing all the great FAās to win? However as a fan Iām not sure I would be interested. I fully understand that trades and FAās signings are apart of any sport. Yet just as we can look at all the success, we can also say well that didnāt work. In the end Fans and not just hometown fans decide what a legacy is. We can spin it this way or that way, yet in the end Fans decide. That is why we all remember the Bulls, Celtics, Lakers, and why we will remember the Spurs.
One last thing it seems odd to me that LeBron desires to have major players on the court with him. Yet Iām not sure Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Duncan desired great players to be on their team with them. they just wanted to win for their teams. Donāt get me wrong LeBron wants to win, but itās for himself and not the team he plays for. If thatās not the case he wouldāve never left his home team to chase championship with his big three. Fans will remember. Just saying.
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As a fan I ultimately want my team to win championships. Iām a Royals fan, but Iām in my early 30ās, so I am too young to remember the playoffs of '84 and '85. I have memories of exactly 3 teams that finished above .500 - 1994, 2003 and last season. If you gave me the option of having the Royals win two World Series titles over the next 4 years, then being a 100 loss team every year for five years after that I would take it and I would not think twice. Iām a fan and I want to see my team win the big one, because even one title trumps several losing seasons. Heck, Iāve already sat through more than a few losing seasons, but to get a pair of titles, I would sit through five more losing seasons wearing my World Champions t-shirt and rewinding my championship DVD.
Fans remember titles, especially in the pros because titles are hard to come by. At KU we have a different perspective in basketball because KU is quite literally always good. The KU spectrum ranges from good to elite in basketball. A down year is a fourth place finish in the conference and an 8 seed in the NCAA tournament. At KU, thereās no sense in mortgaging the future because the future is almost certain to be bright.
In the NBA though, that is not the case. The Bulls were awesome as long as Jordan and Pippen were there. As soon as those two left, the Bulls were no longer a great team. When Magic Johnson retired, the Lakers went from being elite to so-so until Shaq and Kobe hit their primes. After Bird, McHale and Parish, the Celtics were pretty pedestrian until they got Garnett and Allen (and Rondo) to team with Paul Pierce. Thatās just the way it goes in the NBA because the greatness of a team is directly intertwined with the players.
There is no assurance that the future will be bright, so if you are good now, you better shoot to be great because it will be over before you know it. Ask the Pacers about that. They were on the brink the last couple of years, then free agency hit for Lance Stephenson and Paul George broke his leg. They probably wonāt even make the playoffs this year after being the second best team in the East 2 years straight. Just like that, it may be over for them. Maybe they can land someone in the draft and Paul George comes back 100% next year, but maybe it doesnāt work out and 2013 was the Pacers best chance at greatness and they let it all slip away. Six months ago the Pacers looked like they were on the brink of toppling the Heat - today, they are trying to figure out what they should do about the 2014-15 season.
Thatās pro sports for you. There is no guarantee that you will be good perpetually because no one team has the ability to corner the talent market like you can in college. Thatās why I look at OKC and wonder if they made the right decision with James Harden. I understand the salary cap, but why not play those two years out and see if the Durant-Westbrook-Harden-Ibaka group was enough to win a title because who knows, that window may have closed for them. You never know.
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@justanotherfan You almost had me. Very good point of view. Iām not trying to dismiss the value of a championship to an organization or itās fans. Besides why play the game if the goal isnāt to be the best? My point was that there is more to just winning championships to a players legacy. I feel Iāve presented a strong argument on this issue.
Iām a bit older than you so I do remember those Royals from the late 70ās and early 80ās. Iām here to tell you the 85 World Series win does not define the Royals. Yes it was indeed a crowning moment, but it didnāt define Mister Kās Royals. Year in and Year out the Royals were a team to be reckoned with. The beginning of each season was filled with great determination, enthusiasm, and expectations. You see people just didnāt give away Royals tickets on those days. You considered yourself lucky to have tickets to a Royals game in those days. Keep in mind this was before the Royals won the World Serious in 85 and were crowned champions. Today every baseball fan canāt wait for the Yankees and the Red Soxās to play each other. Well in those days itās was the Yankees and the Royals. Every time they took to the field is was almost mythical and magical. It was the big bad Yankees armed with deep history and plethora of Hall famers, versus the small time, Midwest no history, but would play and fight you anywhere, anytime. OH my friend there was bad blood in those days.
Those Royals teams werenāt put together with FAās and trades, no sir they where drafted, paid their dueās homegrown players. Those teams you could sink your teeth into, fall in love with. You felt their pain when they slumped, yet when they won it was like you won too. My friend this was all before the Royals won a championship in 85. You see going through the ups and downs connects the fans to a team. It creates a loyal fan base. It creates a legacy.
You look back into history and see the 85 World Series Championship and say that was the moment. However my friend the moment was getting to that 85 World Series and telling the world and the Yankees we are the champions.
Well thatās how I remember it anyways.
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Boy do I remember the Royals in the 80s!
George and Clint would come down and party in Lawrence. I remember doing shots with them off a bar. Both of those guys had 1 speedā¦ peddle to the metal!
Too bad Clint wasnāt still around in '85.
George had a crazy temper. Iām pretty sure you can youtube him and see some nice footage of him being thrown out of games.
The real playoff series every year was the American League playoffs. KC vs NY. Brett vs āMr. October.ā I cried like a baby more than once.
Championships are not always the measure for greatnessā¦ howeverā¦ it was just flat-out necessary that we win one in that era. We had been denied too long. I know I rarely would have hatred for a team, but in those years I hated NY!
Funnyā¦ but nothing will suck you in more to something than to have two strong sides going after it, and when you have a love for one side and hate for the other you become a true junkie to the situation.
Iāve always hoped to run into āMr. Octoberā sometime to thank him for being a part of it all. And he was a magical player who could strike out a million times but there is no one else you would want coming to the plate in October. I know he became a big-time classic car collector and I thought I might catch him at one of the big auto auctions.
I believe I still have a shot glass from partying with George and Clint, buried somewhere probably under a Led Zeppelin album!
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@DoubleDD said:> āThose Royals teams werenāt put together with FAās and trades, no sir they where drafted, paid their dueās homegrown players. Those teams you could sink your teeth into, fall in love with.ā
Are there any true dynasties in sports any more? The teams that I always thought of as dynasties were built just like you described above. In every sport.
Just another reason I hate the OAD situation. No true sense of team or community with these boys that are just passing through.
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āAre there any true dynasties in sports any more?ā
Sure there areā¦ KANSAS in the B12!
We can all joke about thatā¦ but we should honor it.
We can argue that the B12 isnāt as good as it should be, but our league RPI is always high and most of the members of this conference are very old schools, rich in tradition, large institutions of education (and sports).
10 in a row is a big deal! Especially if you ask your question again and exclude Kansas in the B12!
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@drgnslayr Lol - youāre right. I was thinking pro sports at the time (until the OAD rant), but Iām more than happy to have KU considered a dynasty. RCJH
Another thought that just ran through my warped mind - regarding RCJH. Iāll bet a large portion of sports fans throughout the country could tell you off the top of their head, or at least figure out what RCJH stands for. Can you think of another college sports team that has a widely recognized acronym such as ours? Please donāt say EMAW.
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I donāt think you can really build a dynasty through the draft anymore. Too much has to go right. With salary caps and things like that, even if you draft all the right guys (like OKC did with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, etc). you canāt really keep them all together.
Or you get good too quickly. Lebron faced this problem in Cleveland. In 2004 they picked 10th a took Luke Jackson, who didnāt pan out. They had no pick in 2005 and then didnāt pick until 25th in 2006 and didnāt pick higher than 19 until after Lebron left. Lebron was actually too good to let the Cavs develop a team around him through the draft because they didnāt get high picks in multiple years. The same thing happened to David Robinson in the 80ās and 90ās. Stockton and Malone as well. They made their teams so much better that they couldnāt continue to add through the draft.
Or what would have happened to Jordan had the Sonics not sent them #5 pick Scottie Pippen for #8 pick Olden Polynice. Had the Sonics just kept Pippen, we would probably be talking about how many titles the 90ās Sonics won and how close Jordan got so many times without breaking through. Sometimes you need to get lucky to build a dynasty.
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I would say the closest we have to dynasties (say in the last 20 years) in pro-sports are the San Antoni Spurs, whose player were either drafted or acquired before they became stars and developed by Coach Pop, and the NE Patriots in the NFL. Both franchises have built their teams and stayed at or near the top of their sports consistently, with āconsistentlyā being the key word. Many other teams got hot for a few years and then declined.
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Bottom line.
I could never be a loyal fan for a team that tries to buy a championship. There is just nothing in it for me as a fan. I prefer rooting for players that have paid their dues. I can connect with them. They become my players.
FAās are nice and are necessary but letās face it the only reason theyāre playing for your team is because they got paid, and when the contract is up theyāll be looking for the next big contract or team that gives them the best chance to win a championship. There is no Loyalty.
Trades are a little different in that the player may have no choice. So I as a fan give them the benefit of the doubt.
I guess what Iām saying is I want the player to care about the city, the state, and the organization as much I do. I have no desire to drop money buying jerseys and tickets to watch hired guns.
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@nuleafjhawk Iām afraid we live in the days of instant gratification. Todays generations are more than happy to root for players that werenāt drafted, or teams that werenāt built. As long as they win championships. Problem no matter what the sport there is only ONE Champion.
There is hope though. As you said look at any dynasty and the formula is the same they are built.
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I agree with your post on current pro dynasties.
Trying to just buy a winner shows how weak the front office is.
SA and NE both have solid front offices. That is the reason they were able to build a winning history. From coaching all the way up. And over time it really gets exposed.
